Discussion about pve-only skills in the future - will you like it or not?

I for myself highly prefer the current system of pvp-pve balanced skills.

I know, some skills used in pvp are useless in pve. But I think they can be buffed without big changes for pvp like adding aoe (see also current mesmer change discussion).

I hate those lightbringer crap so much, if gw pve is all about having the 1337est grindable lightbringer comparable skills in future, I will really think about quitting guild wars even if I'm playing since august '05.

Share your minds please.

Will, it'd be unfair to the PvP masses, and Arenanet as sworn to always keep a balance between the two. I would not like PvE or PvP only skills, but rather the skills are different for each game style (like say Hundred Blades is different in PvE than in PvP).

On one hand, I'd be disappointed that ANet lost control of the balance between a skill in PvE and PvP enough that they had to introduce more PvE-only skills. It just shows that the structure of PvE is being abominated.

On the other hand, though, if it works, improves the game, and doesn't introduce too many new problems... go for it.

All I don't want to see is: Any pve only skills which are better than other skills.

Lightbringer Signet is imbalanced - and you don't need it. They could change the new elite area, so you would not have to look for a lightbringer-rank-4-group.

I don't mind very specialized PvE only skills (e.g. Lightbringer's Gaze), but I really dislike actual profession skills that won't be able to be utilized in PvP. To me, the eliminates some of the creativity that occurs in both PvP and PvE for those of us who play both regularly.

Yes they should be kept separate imo. Skill balancing always seems to be worse off for the PvE player.

Wouldn't you think that would make the PvE-to-PvP transition too confusing? Barriers already seem high enough in that respect. Unique PvE or even PvP skills will perhaps emphasize the divide in a more obvious way, but let's face it, the divide is already there anyway, it won't go away.

Hmmm... i really dont like where this is going...

U know where this came from... we got too many skill balances for pvp... so pve skill set got boring and inadequate...

Farming is out... many skill balancing came to make farming imposible so made pvp unbalanced...there is no fun in it anymore... 55 monks are out... great... for bots but some ppl got kick out of it... now they stopped playing... i have 7-8 friends that stopped playing 2 days after new agro system was introduced... SS makes aataxes scatter... good bye GW... many ppl quited after that...

My friends list got half empty after Factions came out... and unrunuble, unfarmable area was introduced... After Nightfall release it got 2/3 full again... and then 2 weeks after release... its now empty... EMPTY... 82 ppl on it... [dont get me wrong, im not some pve only scrub... i just enjoy it... from time to time, half of my friends list is rank 10-12] i dont play anymore... its boring... GW is boring now... u cant log in and have 15 min of fun and go somewhere... no.. u must play missions or pvp...

There is nothing else to do in the game... all farming thats left is green boss farming or pain in the a.. solo farming witch isnt fun... and u dont make money out of it any more... FUN factor from gw is gone... dont nerf the game nerf bots... if u really are worried bout bots etc... make good detection program or hire gamemasters...

4 things killed guild wars in my view...
1. too predictable pvp [skill points distribution too narrow, armor mechanics bad, weapon upgrades limited... not much variance... anywhere
2. Lazyness of ANET Team, its really easyer to nerf something than to make it challenging...
3. Lack of content... Sorrows area style maps... bigger map space... prophecies had exploring quality... factions and nightfall should have expanded it further... how hard can it be to think of unique content and make it... hmm.. ppl make maps and lvl for so many games... gw cant be any more difficult... maybe they need better developer tools... idk... and prophecies is unfinished... remmeber all those npcs with no thx of quests that just stare at u... Twin Serpent Lakes comes to mind... etc...
4. AUCTION HOUSES... promised, still havent seen them... if anet really wanted to level the playfield and keep prices in check and farmers etc... they should have put in auction houses and then when ppl see how many items are on sale and how many ppl are selling same stuff... economy would have been much better... And lot less frustrating...


my 2 cents...

Im not playing GW anymore as i said... hope next one will be better... [read: more fun] if not... goodbye gw and gw2... have better things to do in life...

thx for reading...

I don't like the idea. Odds are these skills are going to be overpowered compared to normal skills and not taking them on your bar will be foolish. More cookie-cutter templates will be born; endless joy. I love the lack of creativity there already is within the PvE world.

first off all - i hate gaze.
that skill is evil!
(id actually sceam its the next hitler but i wont go as far).

so my first impression of pve-only skills isnt very positive.
BUT i am willing to give them the benefit of a doubt. since it really depends on how the skills will be designed. if every skill will be gaze-ish - id rather not have them. since that would mean that pve would just degrade even further.
BUT if pve is changed and we get skills that will be EFFECTIVE and (some of them) are designed like one of my favorite skills (like ever ) Arcane Languor - then i wont have problems with it. if the pve-only skills will give us viable options - then i am fine with that!
if everything well get will be damage-damage-DAMAGE just so that the foes can get even more insane - theres just no freaking way that i can be supportive of something like that!

Personally i like the idea of PvE only skills, but one's that are less restrictive than the Lightbringer skill set.

A full set of them would be good, at least we'd know then that the overuse of a certain build in PvP isnt going to screw you in PvE like it normally does with the nerf that comes with it.

PvP has always had too much of an effect on skills in PvE and seems to get the priority. It'd be nice to see the door swing the other way for a change with skills that PvP abuse cant screw, then they only ever need balancing for 'real' PvE issues.

I do understand the requirement that they not be too overpowering or significantly more powerful than other skills, but at least they can be made reasonable balanced from the beginning knowing that a PvP team wont be blowing everything away with them.

I would guess that on average PvE players would want it and PvP players don't.

But what is the problem anyway? Are PvP players so jealous that they can't use certain skills even if they would ruin PvP and so they rather not see PVE players use them? Childish...

The bottom line is that PvP and PvE are VERY different playing styles and because of it balancing skills is very difficult to do. So why not let go a bit.

I hate the idea that certain skills get killed for one type of gameplay to better suit the other. That's a weakness in the system. If different skills are handy in different missions and you have multiple builds for your character why is it so difficult to have PvE and PvP builds....ooops we already do...

It's silly to bemoan this. If you play PvE and have skills that won't work in PvP and vice versa what is the problem? They just aren't the same and so not all the skills need to be the same.

I like the lightbringer ranking and skills cause it adds to the flavour...and as you can see on other threads a lot of people do have a hard time with area's like Realm of Torment and this helps them. I mean go ahead and add them to PvP...since you can't use em on players it's absolutely useless...so big deal that it's PvE only.

Personally I love the idea. Thats right u PvPer's whos better now. Awww im only joking we we still all be good but i really do like the idea

I'm guessing the PVE-only skills will be somewhat overpowered, and they will still be restricted from heroes. Anet probably wants to move things back to the days when the average player was more likely to succeed with a pug than with AI partners.

Like the OP, I'm worried we'll get a bunch more skills like Lightbringer's Gaze that are linked to titles. These are a sneaky way for Anet to introduce long term grinding-for-power into the game without messing with the level cap. But I prefer the original skill over time spent philosophy of GW. I really hope there isn't one title for demon-hunting, one for troll-hunting, one for tengu-hunting, and so on, with a couple of linked skills for each title, and you have to keep swapping things out. That'll get old fast.

I don't know, sounds to me like you're obsessing about something you're
not willing to put any effort into getting, and resenting anyone else that is
willing to do so.

I've gotten six characters through Nightfall and haven't seen even a single
mission where it was required by a group that you have lightbringer
points. The only place people expect it is in the DoA quests, and even
then it's only some groups requiring it.

On top of that, it takes almost no effort at all to get to level three, which is
all that the few groups that insist on it expect. You just have to stop at the
shrines you pass and get the bounties as you proceed through the game.

Is it because you want to be in on the end game quests, but want to do
them with characters that you've had run through the game and have no
experience playing? If so, maybe you should do them with your guild.

ummmm...

As a pvp player I could care less if there were pve special skills. Anything that would help stop the complaints that anet doesn't care about pve everytime there is a skill balance...

I like playing Guild Wars, I don't like playing Guild Wars PvE and Guild Wars PvP.

Really?

Since PvP and PvE are entirely different playing styles and use totally different builds, it is already that way. PvE skills won't make that new...it's been that way from the start.

I wish all skills from Nightfall and Factions were PvE-only.

Well, except for the good ones.

Best solution to make everyone happy would be to separate them.
PvP nerfs won't have any effect on PvE realms.

Those are my thoughts as well. If there are PvE-only skills, I think that's a good start. It would be nice to have PvE-only skills that won't likely get nerfed due to imbalances in PvP.

And hopefully, they'll also have PvP-only skills for the PvP'ers.

It's clear to me that Anet needs to do something. If this will allow PVE to finally get decent skills then I am all for it, but I would prefer that they set up a system where PVE and PVP skills are set up in a way that allows them to have seperate stats depending on if a player is using PVP or PVE. There would be balance in PVP and PVE players could finally use their favorite skills again without worring about nerfing, everyone could be happy.

Well said.

Not only that, but since PvE isn't competitive, there's no real 'balance' to worry about is there? If they introduce more PvE specific skills, or even split the skill lines, then expect PvE to stagnate and die. We will never get another skill update/rebalance again and that would be terrible. Everything would be reduced to one or two cookie-cutter templates and that would be it. No build variety in PvE what-so-ever, just a single build for each situation.

Grand Court -> Run this.

Power Farming -> Run that.

I'm a hard-core PvE player, 22 points short of Bambi, and I am personally very grateful that Anet takes PvP so seriously and constantly updates skills. I simply DON'T CARE if that inconveniences a farmer or two. They will adapt...or someone else will. ALL farming nerfs are transient blips and get resolved with creative thinking.....which I like, because it stimulates thought and creativity all around.

So "NO" to any more PvE specific skills. We have too many right now.

It's just how things work. There can't really be a true comparison to the game mechanics of PvP and PvE, and therefore trying to keep the skills balanced between the two obviously causes way too many problems. There's a lack of creativity in PvE because generally once something is found to be successful, what's the motivation to work it out even more? Quicker time maybe, which can lead to more loot, but not everyone plays just to be rich and show off.

Not everyone cares about creating new builds. Some just play to explore and escape from the real world. And since the skills change over and over to mostly balance out PvP, not everyone wants to deal with the time of figuring out new builds, so they just copy what others use. Not all players are like this though, and not everyone copies other builds even if they seem to be using a popular build. To think that only one person or group of people can think of each build is kind of foolish. Some are pretty specific, true, but anyone with a decent amount of knowledge of the game mechanics and skills can see what works and what won't, and thus develop at least the basic structure to many of the more famous builds.

If the odds are 'right' and these are overpowered skills, then it will just be another lame addition to PvE. It already is easy enough (besides the elite parts which are 'elite' for a reason) and we definitely don't need more stupid stuff like Lightbringer's Gaze in the game. If it's mission specific skills, then that would be cool and not provide pathetic grind just so others can feel superior to the rest of the players. I think making the missions feel more unique with more PvE skills this way will help the game, not harm it.

Style of play is different yes, but the same build can work in both, for example, shock axe, burning arrow ranger, infuse monk, etc. Now I'm not saying that every build can transfer between the two, but most builds can with a few minor tweaks.

Then, why try to limit it? I don't understand why you would want to limit the concept of using builds. Its a stupid idea and it will make Guild Wars a worse game. And you know, they're are skills that are used in PvE, as well as PvP. It isnt just one or the other at the moment, there is holes between, skill can go through pvp side and pve area.

By playing adh you have to defeat different groups with different skills. Why not in pve too?

PVE would be great if mobs had 8 skills on their bar (with ressurection skills) or just more health instead of double damage... or random skill sets.

I loved beating Coventina the Matron (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Coventina_the_Matron) in Prophecies. You had to set up skills which can make you kill an uber monk boss. That's fun. To die cause of double damage from a factions ele boss is not that funny.

In PVP it's hard to kill someone, in PVE it's easy - even easier with skills like lightbringers gaze.

If PvE skills are long the lines of skills that weave the story together, then fine, add a few in.(See Celestial skills in Factions, Lightbringer skills in Nightfall)

Other than that, I think its a horrible idea. I haven't really said much about the rumored CH4(because until I see officialness, its a rumor), but to hear that 1/3 of the skills offered in the game will be PvE only would be rather disappointing. I can only hope its false because it seems from what is rumored that CH4 will be all pve and, unless any of those other skills are ridiculously good, its nothing someone who enjoys the pvp aspect of the game would bother with. But until official word is given, I leave that can of worms at that.

Also, if you think its hard for people to transition from pve to pvp now, try it if pve had their own skill set. PvEers would not be able to take their "Armageddon Storm", "Minor Cataclysm", "Divine Immunity", or "<place your most uber pve-only skill here>" into a pvp situation. Keeping the skillssimiliar in both access makes transitions easier and the learning curve not too steep.

The skills can probably fall into a few categories; overpowered, mission, or perhaps monster specific which is why they would be limited to PvE. However, each area has its flaws.

If you make overpowered skills, it means Anet can make the enemies even more annoying than the ones in DoA with that annoying Enraged skill (I haven't gone back in there since being hit for over 100 damage with a Cry of Frustration, that place just isn't fun). In order to beat area X, you're going to need PvE only skill X or you're just putting more strain on yourself. Rather than giving enemies a full skill bar, mixed professions, and level curve = more damage jargon the understanding is that stupidly tough enemies makes a challenging area. Overpowered skills will either make PvE even easier, or turn difficult situations into something moderately tough. But if they skills don't do one of those two things, then why wouldn't they be usable in PvP if they aren't groundbreaking?

Mission only skills annoyed me personally. Venta Cemetary's disarm trap skill is easily interrupted even though it doesn't say it is. Play as a melee class with heroes/henchmen who usually runs into the group first and you'll never get the thing off until everything is dead. The vial of holy water hex from Nundu Bay has a two second cast and the harbringer's have Distracting Blow. 15 seconds later of pounding the thing for 0 damage before you can use the hex again. It's not difficult by any means, just frustrating and unnecessary. Either give me an NPC that uses the super-skill or give me Claim Resource for all of those other missions.

The only other PvE skill I could think of would be ones with additional effects vs. a specific monster type. The immediate thought that comes to mind is farming abuse. I do recall players forming Lightbringer's Gaze farming groups that would run around the RoT blasting everything with a 321 gaze spike for hundreds of AoE damage. And monsters were made to flee AoE because that made PvE/farming too easy.

Okay, but do you think a skill balance affects PvP players the same way it would affect PvE players? IMO, it's different because PvP and PvE builds are quite different.

A skill balance for "skill xyz" may be nice and fair for PvP players. PvE players, (who are using skill xyz differently than PvP players would), are then affected by the same nerf...and they had nothing to do with it.

If it was imbalanced in PvE...I'd have no problem with it. If it was imbalanced in PvP and, as a result, the skill balance affected my PvE build(s), that's not cool. That's why I support the concept of having some PvE-only skills (as well as PvP-only skills).

On the other side of the coin, I wouldn't think it fair to balance a skill because it was overpowered in PvE. That wouldn't be fair to the PvP players. But, that would never happen, would it?

If they do this (I know it was already mentioned) it is just the red flag Anet has put up, and there are better ways for this to happen. The lightbringer titles and skills truly annoy me, so unless I farm my rear end off for EACH profession they are not effective in PvE and it contributes nothing to PvP where I use my PvE characters mainly to begin with.

It's just a fork in the road, and dead end signs for each side.

Personally i am supportive toward the PvE only skill set since its don't bare the bunt of nerf bat ever so often.

Just look at PvP skill set every once in a while people screaming omg nerf wtf etc all the template build scrap and back to the drawing board its get annoying and getting really old.

Personally if possible i rather have FoW UW doesn't follow the the current favor system which i find is stupid one can't access a PvE area due to the fact whichever country doesn't have favor resulted from PvP.

It not like we have all day to sit around the chair 24/7 to play guildwars you know.Some of us have a real life ,work and bills to pay and gaming is a form of get away.We only get like a minor 1-2hr to play and waiting for favor is not fun. Personally i don't like playing pvp in guildwars and never will play much again.Reason is simple each game take too much time planning and tactic involve not to mention having TS/Vent as a must have so the team perform better (other then the annoying person barking at you.)

During winters day most adults around rather spend christmas outside with a couple of friend and be spoiled with a wonderful dinner and beer(This refer to adult lifestyle)then stay at home to play guildwars (Well most adult anyway, there are exceptional cases)Snowball fights are interesting PvP i wish they just leave it around so people can access it all the time and not event only kind of thing.

For my PvP fun I rather have my FPS game or Warcraft 3 Dota at least thats balanced and doesn't take forever to setup just to play.Most adult doesn't waste want too much time to get hookup to have some PvP fun.PvE is a different story since monster are very much straight forward.

PvE only skill will only make it more straight forward and a much needed balance on some classes that have been labeled a bane in PvE which anet can't allow them to have certain PvP skill as its unbalancing(If you want some Challenge there hard mode and DoA for that go knock yourself out)
I am sure PvE only skill will only make it easiler to pick up the game and make the game more enjoyable then it current state.Since PvE content is design in a way that you will win one way or the other i really don't see the problem.

As for those playing PvE who want to do PvP in guildwars who can't bring those PvE only skill please grow up and learn how to play, that what PvP about.If you have problem adapting here i rather not have you on my team.Beside what work in PvE don't quite work in PvP they still have to start from scratch one way or the other.i rather have Quality then Quantity

As for the PvE only skill Lightbringer Graze i personally dislike the design as its a grind base skill i rather have class attribute kind of PvE only skill then ones like Lightbringer Graze (grind base skill )

personally I wouldn't mind pve'rs getting pve only skills..It doesn't effect pvp'rs at all. I think that if anet is going to put in pve only skills they should balance them out with other skills and not give the player any special advantage for having a higher ranking in a certain title (aka lightbringer). The sunspear idea was nice, rebirth sig ftw and it doesn't really give any special advantage and very easy to get.
maybe anet should implement pvp only skills ok that would just be plain stupid..nevermind.

I love LB gaze! It's a godsend for unskilled idiots like me. I would welcome more skills like that, that help a casual gamer get through the tougher areas a little faster.

I really doubt we are going to see 50 of them like that inquirer article implied (but we will know for sure soon), but anyway... if there are any at all, their effectiveness will probably be tied to some title, faction, or something else. Much like lightbringer, it's a way to try and add "levels" to guild wars PvE, so your character actually becomes increasingly effective as you build them, while having no effect on PvP and (as the nightfall skills are) not overpowering you in any previous or future campaigns.

I disagree

The value of PvE is in the experience. Many skills and builds got over nerfed simply because they don't work in a PvP environment. Skill such as EoE and Ritual Lord and half the communing Ritualist skills, not to mention the entire Motivation attribute for Paragons were simply killed because of bad PvP team build addictions.

Having only some skills that work for PvP will re introduce balance where a balanced build will seem more viable.

Having only some skills that work for Pve will re introduce the enjoyment of the experience.

NOTE: this is not a rant vs PvP (I enjoy PvP) its a simple fact that PvP is killing the PvE experience.

If Anet is making PvE only skills and limiting the PvP skill I say "Its about time."

I kind of agree that they should, pvp and pve should be more seperate in this game, even in perhaps more ways than skill wise.

Umm where are these PVP players that are "so jealous" that they're opposing this? From what I see, the ones opposing this are also PVE players or at least hybrid players. Purely PVP players dont give a crap if PVE gets PVE only skills. Stop making generalizations and flamebait. Childish....

Anyway, if PVE skills are introduced there really should only be a handful of them. Except that they'd probably encourage cookie cutters builds (as others have mentioned)

But my opinion has always been that it's not the skills that make PVE stagnant like so many of you claim, but it's the PVE itself. PVE is either a mindless chore of just clicking skills until the monsters are dead over and over again and any "challenge" in PVE comes from brute force (i.e. DOA) and not from any real intelligence from the A.I. and mob builds.

Unfortunately, seems like too many people prefer the mindless mass killing of monsters. Hence why so many like mindless farming as well. So I dont expect PVE to improve and I dont expect any PVE only skills to make things any better in the long run.

I pretty much agree with all of this, except for a few points. You hit the nail on the coffin, that pve is mostly a mindless chore of just clicking skills over and over again mob after mob, but this isnt the part that makes pve stagnant amazingly. I think that for most players, and I guess myself, just doing a mission for completing the storyline isn't enough justification to do it, thats not what we look for in a mmorpg type game.I think if Anet can provide more incentives for PvE, maybe some new levels or more barometers of accomplishment not including titles, it would be good enough to divide PvE and PvP and many less conflicts would occur. Just my opinion anyway .

I would highly prefer changes to current skills to make them useful in pve over any new pve only skill which will just be overpowered.