I would like to see more intelligent pve critters and team builds in addition to a party class cap before separating pve and pvp skill sets completely.
A class cap on the party would help prevent skill exploitation in pvp. Most balances are from stacking a single class into a team, such as with SF teams. Limiting the amount of a single primary class to say 3 would help curb these exploitations. Now this could hurt pve team builds a little as well such as the famous b/p build. However, while these builds are incredibly stale as it is, they can still be done but just substituting assassin/rangers or ritualist/rangers to name a few viable class choices.
Limiting the amount of each primary class in a team would also allow classes that are not widely accepted to be added to the team. It is sad that in pve so few players think outside the templates widely accepted.
If exploitation of skills continues in a severe pace, then pve only and pvp only skills would be the only choice for lasting balance.
Discussion about pve-only skills in the future - will you like it or not?
Calen The Civl
Croix_Raul
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Originally Posted by Obey The Cat
I would highly prefer changes to current skills to make them useful in pve over any new pve only skill which will just be overpowered.
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Obey The Cat
Yes, too bad. :-(
Sprites
we'll see what hapens when it'll be released 
50 Lb signets would be imba unless they made uber mobs
50 Lb signets would be imba
Croix_Raul
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Originally Posted by Sprites
we'll see what hapens when it'll be released
50 Lb signets would be imba |
zwei2stein
as PvE player, i dont really dig idea of PvE skills because they so far had three effects:
a) being way too limited to one area/situation get any love or just being kinda pointless - celestial X, sunspear rebirth sig, lightbringer signet.
b) required grind of a kind - lightbringer stuff
c) removed all challenge - jududundu stuff
only good pve only skill is cap sig, imho.
a) being way too limited to one area/situation get any love or just being kinda pointless - celestial X, sunspear rebirth sig, lightbringer signet.
b) required grind of a kind - lightbringer stuff
c) removed all challenge - jududundu stuff
only good pve only skill is cap sig, imho.
fripple
I don't get the objection to 'overpowered' skills in pve. First, who does this hurt? Second, and more important, this is the only way we're going to get out of the cesspool of cookie-cutter builds short of a complete overhaul of monster AI and all mob skillsets, which I think is fairly unlikely to happen.
What causes cookie-cutter builds in pve? Mob difficulty. Prophecies didn't really have this issue unless you got into a couple areas or situations. The first is obviously farming/running, which requires specific builds due to the difficulty of soloing multiple mobs of equal of higher level than yourself; if you don't run specific combinations of skills against specific mobs, you will die, period, and no amount of 'skill' will save you.
The only other places it really came up were in the end-game areas like the god realms, tombs, and SF. Note, though, that none of these places was so difficult that you couldn't do them with a wide variety of builds; the cookie-cutter stuff was there to speed things along, not to make them doable for people who couldn't otherwise participate.
Later games threw more difficult pve content at us, I think everyone can agree, and look, more reliance on cookie-cutters appeared. The new end-game areas, in particular, are virtually impossible without bringing specific builds (and/or specific strategies built around gimmicky skill functions or AI/design exploits) along because the mobs encountered are so powerful or gimmicky that they will kill you, period, unless you bring specific counters from a very small pool of options. While it is certainly possible to play any area of GW without relying on pre-planned, well-known builds, for many people not in intelligent, active guilds, this is the simplest (and sometimes only) way to participate in the newer end-game content.
If you give people more skills that can compete in some form with the few skills that will already get the job done in these areas, which necessarily means they are at least as overpowered as the ones people are currently using, then it helps increase build diversity. How is that bad?
What causes cookie-cutter builds in pve? Mob difficulty. Prophecies didn't really have this issue unless you got into a couple areas or situations. The first is obviously farming/running, which requires specific builds due to the difficulty of soloing multiple mobs of equal of higher level than yourself; if you don't run specific combinations of skills against specific mobs, you will die, period, and no amount of 'skill' will save you.
The only other places it really came up were in the end-game areas like the god realms, tombs, and SF. Note, though, that none of these places was so difficult that you couldn't do them with a wide variety of builds; the cookie-cutter stuff was there to speed things along, not to make them doable for people who couldn't otherwise participate.
Later games threw more difficult pve content at us, I think everyone can agree, and look, more reliance on cookie-cutters appeared. The new end-game areas, in particular, are virtually impossible without bringing specific builds (and/or specific strategies built around gimmicky skill functions or AI/design exploits) along because the mobs encountered are so powerful or gimmicky that they will kill you, period, unless you bring specific counters from a very small pool of options. While it is certainly possible to play any area of GW without relying on pre-planned, well-known builds, for many people not in intelligent, active guilds, this is the simplest (and sometimes only) way to participate in the newer end-game content.
If you give people more skills that can compete in some form with the few skills that will already get the job done in these areas, which necessarily means they are at least as overpowered as the ones people are currently using, then it helps increase build diversity. How is that bad?
Tempy
ROFLMAO...what do PvP'ers care about anyway, everyone uses the same builds in 99% of all battles.
I comes down to if there are PvE only skills, or more, it won't matter because you don't miss what you never had. And even PvE charas that PvP wouldn't be able to use them in PvP anyway...so why does it matter if there are PvE only skills.
It doesn't mess with anyone's PvP. Or is this gonna be another one of those, "well that's not how it has been so don't change it" things?
I comes down to if there are PvE only skills, or more, it won't matter because you don't miss what you never had. And even PvE charas that PvP wouldn't be able to use them in PvP anyway...so why does it matter if there are PvE only skills.
It doesn't mess with anyone's PvP. Or is this gonna be another one of those, "well that's not how it has been so don't change it" things?
Gli
What's all this nonsense about PvE skills removing challenge? There's no challenge to begin with in PvE unless you go looking for it. A full party of mediocre players can already breeze through practically every mission/explorable in every chapter. And that's by design, because to be succesful a game needs to appeal to the lowest common denominator, the casual player. PvE only skills aren't going to change a thing. They won't detract from the game, only add to it.
Challenge only comes into play when you start doing things in a less efficient fashion than you could, finding builds so tomorrow you can do with 2 people what you need 3 people for today, devising solo builds. The only real challenges are the ones you set yourself. If the PvE skills make certain challenges easier, raise the bar for yourself.
Challenge only comes into play when you start doing things in a less efficient fashion than you could, finding builds so tomorrow you can do with 2 people what you need 3 people for today, devising solo builds. The only real challenges are the ones you set yourself. If the PvE skills make certain challenges easier, raise the bar for yourself.
Dracil
PVE-only skills like the lightbringer stuff is basically ANet's answer to the level cap. It's a loophole to add more leveling to the game without having to call it that.
There's been a slow but steady power creep in Guild Wars with each chapter. Better minimum stats on drops, add an extra +10 health or +2 En here and there with the new runes. Customizable heroes with stat boostable armors.
And of course, better skill synergy between the three chapters (unless I'm mistaken, monsters can only use skills from their chapter so they'll never have as good of a skillset as we do, barring monster skills and environmental effects and cheat bonuses [extra levels, boss bonuses])
Basically, since good AI is hard, ANet took the easy route by letting monsters cheat. But as the cheating becomes more common for regular monsters, to compensate, they also let players cheat against them with PVE-only skills.
I predict in a few more chapters, we'll have lvl 36 monsters, but we'll also get special titles and skills that'll give us +200 health boost and +50% damage and half hex and condition times against them. There'll also probably be mixed mobs, so you'll have to manage your title switches (to add even more "skill" to the game) depending on the mobs you're facing.
There's been a slow but steady power creep in Guild Wars with each chapter. Better minimum stats on drops, add an extra +10 health or +2 En here and there with the new runes. Customizable heroes with stat boostable armors.
And of course, better skill synergy between the three chapters (unless I'm mistaken, monsters can only use skills from their chapter so they'll never have as good of a skillset as we do, barring monster skills and environmental effects and cheat bonuses [extra levels, boss bonuses])
Basically, since good AI is hard, ANet took the easy route by letting monsters cheat. But as the cheating becomes more common for regular monsters, to compensate, they also let players cheat against them with PVE-only skills.
I predict in a few more chapters, we'll have lvl 36 monsters, but we'll also get special titles and skills that'll give us +200 health boost and +50% damage and half hex and condition times against them. There'll also probably be mixed mobs, so you'll have to manage your title switches (to add even more "skill" to the game) depending on the mobs you're facing.
lacasner
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Originally Posted by Dracil
PVE-only skills like the lightbringer stuff is basically ANet's answer to the level cap. It's a loophole to add more leveling to the game without having to call it that.
There's been a slow but steady power creep in Guild Wars with each chapter. Better minimum stats on drops, add an extra +10 health or +2 En here and there with the new runes. Customizable heroes with stat boostable armors. |
Warmaster Patton
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Originally Posted by jamal555
Hmmm... i really dont like where this is going...
U know where this came from... we got too many skill balances for pvp... so pve skill set got boring and inadequate... Farming is out... many skill balancing came to make farming imposible so made pvp unbalanced...there is no fun in it anymore... 55 monks are out... great... for bots but some ppl got kick out of it... now they stopped playing... i have 7-8 friends that stopped playing 2 days after new agro system was introduced... SS makes aataxes scatter... good bye GW... many ppl quited after that... My friends list got half empty after Factions came out... and unrunuble, unfarmable area was introduced... After Nightfall release it got 2/3 full again... and then 2 weeks after release... its now empty... EMPTY... 82 ppl on it... [dont get me wrong, im not some pve only scrub... i just enjoy it... from time to time, half of my friends list is rank 10-12] i dont play anymore... its boring... GW is boring now... u cant log in and have 15 min of fun and go somewhere... no.. u must play missions or pvp... There is nothing else to do in the game... all farming thats left is green boss farming or pain in the a.. solo farming witch isnt fun... and u dont make money out of it any more... FUN factor from gw is gone... dont nerf the game nerf bots... if u really are worried bout bots etc... make good detection program or hire gamemasters... 4 things killed guild wars in my view... 1. too predictable pvp [skill points distribution too narrow, armor mechanics bad, weapon upgrades limited... not much variance... anywhere 2. Lazyness of ANET Team, its really easyer to nerf something than to make it challenging... 3. Lack of content... Sorrows area style maps... bigger map space... prophecies had exploring quality... factions and nightfall should have expanded it further... how hard can it be to think of unique content and make it... hmm.. ppl make maps and lvl for so many games... gw cant be any more difficult... maybe they need better developer tools... idk... and prophecies is unfinished... remmeber all those npcs with no thx of quests that just stare at u... Twin Serpent Lakes comes to mind... etc... 4. AUCTION HOUSES... promised, still havent seen them... if anet really wanted to level the playfield and keep prices in check and farmers etc... they should have put in auction houses and then when ppl see how many items are on sale and how many ppl are selling same stuff... economy would have been much better... And lot less frustrating... my 2 cents... Im not playing GW anymore as i said... hope next one will be better... [read: more fun] if not... goodbye gw and gw2... have better things to do in life... thx for reading... |
Factions and Nightfall are the same size as Prophecies, it just seems smaller because you get to level 20 faster.
lacasner
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Originally Posted by jamal555
Farming is out... many skill balancing came to make farming imposible so made pvp unbalanced...there is no fun in it anymore... 55 monks are out... great... for bots but some ppl got kick out of it... now they stopped playing... i have 7-8 friends that stopped playing 2 days after new agro system was introduced... SS makes aataxes scatter... good bye GW... many ppl quited after that...
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Originally Posted by jamal555
My friends list got half empty after Factions came out... and unrunuble, unfarmable area was introduced... After Nightfall release it got 2/3 full again... and then 2 weeks after release... its now empty... EMPTY... 82 ppl on it... [dont get me wrong, im not some pve only scrub... i just enjoy it... from time to time, half of my friends list is rank 10-12] i dont play anymore... its boring... GW is boring now... u cant log in and have 15 min of fun and go somewhere... no.. u must play missions or pvp...
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Originally Posted by jamal555
There is nothing else to do in the game... all farming thats left is green boss farming or pain in the a.. solo farming witch isnt fun... and u dont make money out of it any more... FUN factor from gw is gone... dont nerf the game nerf bots... if u really are worried bout bots etc... make good detection program or hire gamemasters...
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Originally Posted by Warmaster Patton
Factions and Nightfall are the same size as Prophecies, it just seems smaller because you get to level 20 faster.
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Wildi
I don't think future PvE-only skills will be unbalanced because anet always nerf everything to hell.
Kha
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Originally Posted by fripple
I don't get the objection to 'overpowered' skills in pve. First, who does this hurt? Second, and more important, this is the only way we're going to get out of the cesspool of cookie-cutter builds short of a complete overhaul of monster AI and all mob skillsets, which I think is fairly unlikely to happen.
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The only way we're ever going to get out of so called cesspool is by changing the very basics of the monster AI. No addition, nerfing or changing of any skills will do that. It just slows down the progress until a new solution is found and becomes the addiction of the community. Unless they find/implement a way for monsters to be smarter in an AI adaptable programming, and not just overpowered, PvE will always remain the same rinse and repeat cycle.
Will this happen? Most likely not. I agree with you there. So the only real solution then is to find ways to make new AI creatures and new settings for PvE to happen in. If they can't make individual AI adaptable, they'll just have to make AI from different areas unique with more interesting builds to counter and more strategical (and not just annoyingly debilitating) settings to fight in.
Ensign
I expect PvE-only skills to be varieties of title-grind skills, or skills that are substantially overpowered for PvP. I don't think either of those choices would make the PvE in Guild Wars more enjoyable.
Put another way, Lightbringer's Gaze and Sunspear Rebirth Signet were colossal mistakes, and if title grind, strictly better skills are the way forward we should be thankful that they're going to stop with chapter 4.
Peace,
-CxE
Put another way, Lightbringer's Gaze and Sunspear Rebirth Signet were colossal mistakes, and if title grind, strictly better skills are the way forward we should be thankful that they're going to stop with chapter 4.
Peace,
-CxE
Avarre
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Originally Posted by GloryFox
The value of PvE is in the experience. Many skills and builds got over nerfed simply because they don't work in a PvP environment. Skill such as EoE and Ritual Lord and half the communing Ritualist skills, not to mention the entire Motivation attribute for Paragons were simply killed because of bad PvP team build addictions.
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Originally Posted by Ensign
I expect PvE-only skills to be varieties of title-grind skills, or skills that are substantially overpowered for PvP. I don't think either of those choices would make the PvE in Guild Wars more enjoyable.
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Ensign
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Originally Posted by Avarre
These skills were equally imbalanced in PvE, the vast majority of PvE'ers are simply never on the other side of the impact of these skills to realize it.
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That isn't enforced nearly as harshly as getting beaten by those skills in PvP, though - it only really becomes relevant in harsh, high traffic areas where there's a lot of choice involved in who and what to bring in a group. I.E., for the Domain of Anguish, you only see a small subset of builds and professions being run, with groups taking those exclusively and everyone else not even bothering to show up there anymore. While in a random, midgame mission outpost (something like Jennur's Horde, or a chapter 2 mission) you're going to have groups taking anyone they can get.
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Originally Posted by Avarre
If the purpose of PvE is to wield your 'special PvE skills' to kill monsters, which wouldn't have to be introduced if the standard skills were balanced against enemies in the first place, what does that mean for all those thousands of other skills?
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Contrast that with a small subset of "PvE skills" that are much better than all of the others, by design. That flies entirely in the face of the core design of Guild Wars, of build diversity and experimentation. That makes it a game with increasingly predetermined skillbars. I was not happy about the Realm of Torment effectively reducing everyone from 8 skills to 7 skills plus Lightbringer's Gaze, I think that was a huge blow to the foundation of the game. If the decision is to abandon that foundation in favor of more skills like Lightbringer's Gaze, then Guild Wars will have truly lost it's biggest selling point on merit.
Peace,
-CxE
Seef II
I don't like the idea. Every time I'm past Kourna, I remove energy management, stop taking my rez sig, or do other unimagineable things to my skill bar just to bring LB Gaze - because it's that stupidly good. It saves you time, energy, and has a strong effect to boot.
Sunspear Rebirth Signet isn't as flagrant an offender. My main beef with it is that it's strictly better than rez sig (unless you're a frontliner rezzing your monk, but why should that happen in the first place in PvE?) - rather than an alternative, it is a replacement.
At least it didn't make its way into PvP.
Sunspear Rebirth Signet isn't as flagrant an offender. My main beef with it is that it's strictly better than rez sig (unless you're a frontliner rezzing your monk, but why should that happen in the first place in PvE?) - rather than an alternative, it is a replacement.
At least it didn't make its way into PvP.
Redfeather1975
We don't even know what the PVE only skills are yet everyone!
They could be skills for new creatures you can control like the wurms.
Or they could be skills that use mechanics that would only benefit PVE, like a magical unlocking spell.
We will just have to wait and see.
They could be skills for new creatures you can control like the wurms.
Or they could be skills that use mechanics that would only benefit PVE, like a magical unlocking spell.
We will just have to wait and see.
arcanemacabre
I'm not passing judgement until I see the skills themselves. I don't see why they can't be properly balanced alongside all the other normal skills, though. Sure, LB Gaze is overpowered, but it only works on a handful of different types of monsters, and those are only in the endgame of Nightfall. It is bastardized, but it doesn't really affect the rest of the game, ya know?
The Sunspear Rebirth Sig is really nice, though. Not too powerful, and yes, it does replace Res Sig, but I don't really see a problem with that. It teleports, something that everyone brings Rebirth for in PvE. The teleport option just isn't needed in PvP, but is a near necessity in PvE, which is why I think it's a fabulous replacement for Res Sig.
I'm pretty sure Anet is perfectly aware of how easy most of PvE is, and I don't doubt that they will make these PvE-only skills (if they exist) balanced amongst the normal skills.
The Sunspear Rebirth Sig is really nice, though. Not too powerful, and yes, it does replace Res Sig, but I don't really see a problem with that. It teleports, something that everyone brings Rebirth for in PvE. The teleport option just isn't needed in PvP, but is a near necessity in PvE, which is why I think it's a fabulous replacement for Res Sig.
I'm pretty sure Anet is perfectly aware of how easy most of PvE is, and I don't doubt that they will make these PvE-only skills (if they exist) balanced amongst the normal skills.
Braggi
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
I don't mind very specialized PvE only skills (e.g. Lightbringer's Gaze), but I really dislike actual profession skills that won't be able to be utilized in PvP. To me, the eliminates some of the creativity that occurs in both PvP and PvE for those of us who play both regularly.
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We always had the situation that PvP and PvE needs different builds and only a few work well in both situations.
Shanaeri Rynale
Changes to the skillset and AI as a priority over PvE skills is I think the optimum way to go. Maybe hard mode will do just that, we dunno yet.
The only thing wrong with changing AI, is that suddenly loads of farm builds and tactics will be gone, and the resulting backlash from farmers would be immense. Imagine smites that could detect the corpses of their fallen buddies and refuse to chase you there for example.
Overpowered PVE only skills are a mixed blessing. It's an option to bring the forgotten classes back into PvE without breaking PvP and yet as pointed out it it then makes some of the many 100's of unused skills even less likely. PvE build innovation would stagnate even more and the game degenrates into cookie cutter grind.
I guess an option would maybe limit the use of certain PvE only skills to a certain area, or have more buffing skills by NPC. Kilroy stoneskin or Chimera for example. Alternatively limit the use of PvE skills to only 1 per bar which will minimise the effects on builds.
Personally Final Fantasy style summons, complete with cinematics would be so cool on a completley game breaking basis. Never going to happen, logically I dont want it to happen but the coolness would be off the scale(well for the first 10 times or so).
Whatever is done or not done it does seem to me that Anet has painted themselves into a corner and it'll be interesting to see what if any pve only skills they come up with in Ch4
The only thing wrong with changing AI, is that suddenly loads of farm builds and tactics will be gone, and the resulting backlash from farmers would be immense. Imagine smites that could detect the corpses of their fallen buddies and refuse to chase you there for example.
Overpowered PVE only skills are a mixed blessing. It's an option to bring the forgotten classes back into PvE without breaking PvP and yet as pointed out it it then makes some of the many 100's of unused skills even less likely. PvE build innovation would stagnate even more and the game degenrates into cookie cutter grind.
I guess an option would maybe limit the use of certain PvE only skills to a certain area, or have more buffing skills by NPC. Kilroy stoneskin or Chimera for example. Alternatively limit the use of PvE skills to only 1 per bar which will minimise the effects on builds.
Personally Final Fantasy style summons, complete with cinematics would be so cool on a completley game breaking basis. Never going to happen, logically I dont want it to happen but the coolness would be off the scale(well for the first 10 times or so).
Whatever is done or not done it does seem to me that Anet has painted themselves into a corner and it'll be interesting to see what if any pve only skills they come up with in Ch4
Redfeather1975
When I summon an esper I go for a snack.
The Ernada
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Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale
The only thing wrong with changing AI, is that suddenly loads of farm builds and tactics will be gone, and the resulting backlash from farmers would be immense. Imagine smites that could detect the corpses of their fallen buddies and refuse to chase you there for example.
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You can farm all you want and I'm not saying that you arent allowed to farm but don't expect ANET to support that type of gameplay as a priority. The regular gameplay takes precedence over farming.
It just amazes me how many people get so angry and threatened to quit because they can't farm anymore. The game is so much more than that.
Gli
There's the question why PvE-only skills would be PvE-only skills. Overpowered? Maybe. Situation-specific? (LB and worm skills) Probably? It doesn't have to end there though. They might introduce skills that are totally unrelated to combat, like picking locks, swimming, etc.
Muspellsheimr
PvE skills are useless and unneccesary. I myself have never used these skills after the first 2-3 times, and hate the fact that I even have skills that I cannot use in all aspects of the game I am playing.
I would understand, and even promote the use of PvE skills if the PvE characters could NOT play in Player vs. Player enviroments, but how the game is currently setup, they should never have been implemented to begin with. However, as they obviously where put into the game, my vote goes for removing them, and leaving them out now and in all future aspects of the game.
I would understand, and even promote the use of PvE skills if the PvE characters could NOT play in Player vs. Player enviroments, but how the game is currently setup, they should never have been implemented to begin with. However, as they obviously where put into the game, my vote goes for removing them, and leaving them out now and in all future aspects of the game.
Shanaeri Rynale
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Originally Posted by The Ernada
If it improves the quality of the game of PVE then why should anyone let the complaints of farmers hinder it? As I've said before, farming is not how the game was intended to be played. If the gameplay and A.I. could be much better and much more fun, are we seriously going to let whining farmers keep it from being improved?
You can farm all you want and I'm not saying that you arent allowed to farm but don't expect ANET to support that type of gameplay as a priority. The regular gameplay takes precedence over farming. It just amazes me how many people get so angry and threatened to quit because they can't farm anymore. The game is so much more than that. |
I remember the fuss over the last two big AI changes(aoe scatter and the run away and heal one) and I'm sure Anet wont want a repeat of it if it can be avoided.
If some people cant farm, then they will leave. which will affect us all. So balancing intelligent AI with the wishes of some players is a tricky thing to do. Personally I would love the AI of some of the FPS games, but recognise that super quick and reactive AI may not be in the best interests of the game.
Glad i'm not a games designer - lol
Obey The Cat
My greatest wish is to see monsters with more and "random" skillsets in hardmode. Would be sooooooooo nice to fight vs Dwarven with Hammers, Axes and Swords maybe and 8 used skills and monk mobs who ress. Would also be a great mesmer pve buff. 
Draiyne Valure
By random do you mean truly random or randomly chosen from a set of pre-determined builds? A random 8 would probably in most cases end in disaster. Choosing from a set of builds would be awesome; bunny thumping Hekhet and the like would be amazing.
Yeah, and when they overdrive I have a quick shower. And I heat the water myself by staring at it REAL hard.
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| When I summon an esper I go for a snack. |
Obey The Cat
randomly chosen from a set of pre-determined builds.
Neriandal Freit
Not reading this entire topic, but my two gold pieces here is that I do not want to see PvE-Only skills.
Part of the reason I like this game is, and though I don't play, that PvP and PvE use the exact same skills and get entirely different results. Which is insanely awesome for a game able to pull off.
But, if we begin to see a mass amount of PvE-Only Skills (besides likes like Gaze, Wurm attacks, etc.), then this will begin to corrupt the game. Not right away, no. But slowly, it will, and I don't want to see any of that.
Part of the reason I like this game is, and though I don't play, that PvP and PvE use the exact same skills and get entirely different results. Which is insanely awesome for a game able to pull off.
But, if we begin to see a mass amount of PvE-Only Skills (besides likes like Gaze, Wurm attacks, etc.), then this will begin to corrupt the game. Not right away, no. But slowly, it will, and I don't want to see any of that.
Bread Fan
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Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn
Since PvP and PvE are entirely different playing styles and use totally different builds, it is already that way. PvE skills won't make that new...it's been that way from the start. |
Quite hilarious that people are bitching that monsters break aggro now.
I say go for it because most PvE players just like to farm the same thing day in and day out with cookie cutter builds. When a skill balance happens PvE players start to moan and cry about it even though a skill is clearly over powered so this may shut them up a bit and obviously thats Anet's intention.
DreamRunner
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Originally Posted by jcapulet
Okay, but do you think a skill balance affects PvP players the same way it would affect PvE players? IMO, it's different because PvP and PvE builds are quite different.
A skill balance for "skill xyz" may be nice and fair for PvP players. PvE players, (who are using skill xyz differently than PvP players would), are then affected by the same nerf...and they had nothing to do with it. If it was imbalanced in PvE...I'd have no problem with it. If it was imbalanced in PvP and, as a result, the skill balance affected my PvE build(s), that's not cool. That's why I support the concept of having some PvE-only skills (as well as PvP-only skills). On the other side of the coin, I wouldn't think it fair to balance a skill because it was overpowered in PvE. That wouldn't be fair to the PvP players. But, that would never happen, would it? |
Yeah it sucks but really it doesn't effect PvE that much other than farming builds. Which I hear most people cry about anyway. You are not pinned down to a single build, its so easy to just tweak it and have the same effect. Why? Because PvE is easy! PvE is so adaptable, its a joke that people cry about nerfs that "effect" them so much.
Yaga Philipe
I think it's funny, since all they do it cry about things being nerfed, when really they could be finding a different build that works even better.
Yaga Philipe
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Originally Posted by Obey The Cat
randomly chosen from a set of pre-determined builds.
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Zonzai
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
I'm not passing judgement until I see the skills themselves.
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Ensign
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Originally Posted by The Ernada
It just amazes me how many people get so angry and threatened to quit because they can't farm anymore. The game is so much more than that.
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To a lot of people, one of the core gameplay mechanics that they are interested in is wealth accumulation. How does that work in Guild Wars? Through farming, unfortunately. Call it one of the weaker aspects of the game, but the important part of it, to many people, isn't the gameplay, but seeing the number in the money column go up and playing barbie with their avatar. Any changes to farming patterns makes that number go up more slowly, which makes their pattern less profitable which makes the game less fun.
I think it would be silly to really hold the game hostage to that group's wishes, however. That would basically be a vote for never changing anything, regardless of its effects on the quality of the game, because it might impact someone's pattern (actually, it usually impacts someone's pattern, since those patterns are often based on the broken stuff)...and that's not a concession you can make if one of your goals is to make a good game.
Peace,
-CxE
mqstout
PvE-only skills are an extremely Bad Thing (TM). They go hand-in-hand with badly balanced, frustratingly difficult "challenges" and the like.
(FYI, PvE player, exclusively.)
It's more than you need it to get through the excessively overpowered areas in the game because of the few who call everything easy (even still!).
I'm sure glad you think so. Perhaps it's time to attempt to reconnect with the common casual player. And thanks for adding a little confirmation my previous comment
Sadly, it's already feeling that way.
Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
(FYI, PvE player, exclusively.)
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Originally Posted by Pynne
I love LB gaze! It's a godsend for unskilled idiots like me. I would welcome more skills like that, that help a casual gamer get through the tougher areas a little faster.
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Originally Posted by Gli
What's all this nonsense about PvE skills removing challenge? There's no challenge to begin with in PvE unless you go looking for it. A full party of mediocre players can already breeze through practically every mission/explorable in every chapter.
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
I'm pretty sure Anet is perfectly aware of how easy most of PvE is, ...
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Originally Posted by Dracil
I predict in a few more chapters, we'll have lvl 36 monsters, but we'll also get special titles and skills that'll give us +200 health boost and +50% damage and half hex and condition times against them. There'll also probably be mixed mobs, so you'll have to manage your title switches (to add even more "skill" to the game) depending on the mobs you're facing.
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Originally Posted by Avarre
Having to create imbalanced skills for PvE is just proof that Anet failed to balance the PvE challenge. If the purpose of PvE is to wield your 'special PvE skills' to kill monsters, which wouldn't have to be introduced if the standard skills were balanced against enemies in the first place, what does that mean for all those thousands of other skills? Time would be better spent simply tweaking PvE development to not require a completely new line of skills, because if restricted skills have to be added to keep things in check, that's not solving the problem - just covering it.
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Why?
If PvE players were all about farming, then most pve'ers would be wealthy. What was it, only 6 months ago that Anet said most players don't even have 10k in their vaults?
Yea, they really all want to be rich.
I think PvP has to be completely separated from PvE. Anet has taken the fun out of PvE to balance PvP, and that just stinks.
Separate the two skill sets somehow, so they can restore the PvE skills that made the game so much fun for people.
Ya know, when minions had no limits, the rit lords that were so much fun, etc.
PvP and PvE are 2 seperate games. Forcing them to have the same skill sets makes Anet base the skills on 1 or the other. Sadly, they chose to make all skills focus on PvP.
Having PvE only skills will hopefully make the game a bit more enjoyable, instead of how tedious it has become. Instead of having a few overpowered builds like we have now, every class could have a few overpowered builds, and all classes could be used again.
Yea, they really all want to be rich.
I think PvP has to be completely separated from PvE. Anet has taken the fun out of PvE to balance PvP, and that just stinks.
Separate the two skill sets somehow, so they can restore the PvE skills that made the game so much fun for people.
Ya know, when minions had no limits, the rit lords that were so much fun, etc.
PvP and PvE are 2 seperate games. Forcing them to have the same skill sets makes Anet base the skills on 1 or the other. Sadly, they chose to make all skills focus on PvP.
Having PvE only skills will hopefully make the game a bit more enjoyable, instead of how tedious it has become. Instead of having a few overpowered builds like we have now, every class could have a few overpowered builds, and all classes could be used again.