OK, let's take a breather and forget about the level caps, item and character transfer, etc. Forget all about that. Cleanse the brain.
Good.
Now, let's consider possible ways to neuter EBay's affect on a new GW. As we all know all too well, you can buy, for example, GW gold on EBay, which is gathered by farmers through slave labor in foreign countries blah blah blah...
How would you design a game to prevent this from happening? What changes, no matter how radical (we're for the most part stuck with a life-long capitalistic training)?
For example... get rid of gold altogether. Get rid of values on items, get rid of merchants. Allow traders (such as material), and have all the traders accept barter for all items on a one to one scale and make these items available for others.
This is, of course, one speculative idea. Take your neurons for a walk and see what they come up with!
Thoughts?
GW2 and EBay: A speculative analysis thread.
MSecorsky
bhavv
Ban ebay......
Mordakai
The only way to TOTALLY remove the threat of Ebay, is to make ALL items Customized. If you have no way to trade another player anything, there is no way to make profit off it.
Otherwise, any other system will have loopholes. Material traders for bartering? As long as I can go to Tony Snowjob to buy my 1k of Iron for $xx, Ebay will have a place.
Honestly, it's the price MMORPGs pay for having trading in-game. The only way to get rid of ebay, is to get rid of trading.
And I don't think anybody wants that...
Otherwise, any other system will have loopholes. Material traders for bartering? As long as I can go to Tony Snowjob to buy my 1k of Iron for $xx, Ebay will have a place.
Honestly, it's the price MMORPGs pay for having trading in-game. The only way to get rid of ebay, is to get rid of trading.
And I don't think anybody wants that...
Maxiemonster
My thought: Make all items "bound" to you, like some items are bound in World of Warcraft. Most incredbily rare items in World of Warcraft cannot be traded with other players, this makes buying gold alot less interesting. I'd say if you make most items that are rare bound to yourself, noone would be interesting in buying gold, just make gold something you can waste on things like titles, minipets and hats.
I'm more scared of buying "powerlevels" on Ebay though. Paying someone to level your character to a certain level. If this'd happen on large scale (which is very possible, alot of Guild Wars "farmer slaves" will likely move to Guild Wars 2) it'd be quite sad.
I'm more scared of buying "powerlevels" on Ebay though. Paying someone to level your character to a certain level. If this'd happen on large scale (which is very possible, alot of Guild Wars "farmer slaves" will likely move to Guild Wars 2) it'd be quite sad.
Corinthian
Staff buys gold from farmers -> bans farmer / dealer on contact.
Tetris L
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
For example... get rid of gold altogether. Get rid of values on items, get rid of merchants. Allow traders (such as material), and have all the traders accept barter for all items on a one to one scale and make these items available for others.
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I see only one way to shut down Ebay's ingame influence: Disallow direct trading or item transfer among accounts completely, and trade only via NPCs. But that would take a lot of fun out of the game for many people (not me though).
Enko
only way to stop ebay sales is to have the cooperation of ebay. we'll need ebay to monitor auctions posted on their site to shut them down. even if you do that though, there'll always be websites selling stuff.
Corinthian
Or ban China altogether... Hmm...
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by Tetris L
It doesn't work. You cannot remove the value of an item, as the market, supply and demand set the value. If you remove gold, something else, with rather stable prices, will take the role of a gold equivalent (like Ectos do now).
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However... that was just one idea.
The hardest part to this is to break your thoughts from what we're used to seeing and even dealing with in real life. Create a new paradigm for a game two years out.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Tetris L
I see only one way to shut down Ebay's ingame influence: Disallow direct trading or item transfer among accounts completely, and trade only via NPCs. But that would take a lot of fun out of the game for many people (not me though).
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I doubt a petition to ban trading in GW2 would get very far, but for the record, I have no problem with forcing everyone to "earn" what they have by just playing the game, and not by scamming, ebaying, or anything else people can think of to cheat the system...
Especially in a game like Guild Wars, where you don't "need" elite stuff. (Assuming Crafter items carry over to GW2).
Corinthian
Hire a sizeable staff to browse websites for gold-sellers and ban them as they appear. Also give them access to delete eBay auctions and ban their addresses.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
I think that the point there was missed... if the traders will trade any and all items at a one for one basis, supply is irrelevant. For example, if a materials trader never ran out of ectos and would trade them 1 for 1 with bolts of cloth, then ectos are worth the same as cloth, leather, monstrous claws, etc.
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(assuming you could trade this "gold" with other people... if not, then it's no problem).
Corinthian - You'll just force it underground. Where there's a will, there's a way.
The only way to stop people from buying Gold online is to eliminate the universal use of Gold.
Again, the question remains, is that a game you're willing to play? You only have access to what you earn.
It sounds like an exciting concept, but I'm guessing since a large number of people play MMORPGs for the sole purpose of buying and selling stuff, it wouldn't fly.
Tetris L
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
I think that the point there was missed... if the traders will trade any and all items at a one for one basis, supply is irrelevant. For example, if a materials trader never ran out of ectos and would trade them 1 for 1 with bolts of cloth, then ectos are worth the same as cloth, leather, monstrous claws, etc.
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I take it, your trader wouldn't trade anything other than material, would he? Weapons, for example? How would you handle that?
Jobudda
Ebay recently announced that they were banning the sale of items and gold from online games as it was effectively selling game code which belonged to the game developers. Therefore hopefully by the time Guild Wars 2 is released this problem will have completely disappeared, if not sooner.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Jobudda
Ebay recently announced that they were banning the sale of items and gold from online games as it was effectively selling game code which belonged to the game developers. Therefore hopefully by the time Guild Wars 2 is released this problem will have completely disappeared, if not sooner.
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But it will not end Gold farming totally. Email spam, adds on websites, heck, even adds in less reputable magazines will continue.
Again, as long as there is a market for their services, gold farmers will continue to exist.
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by Tetris L
In that case, what's the point of having different types of material in the first place? Or any material at all?
I take it, your trader wouldn't trade anything other than material, would he? Weapons, for example? How would you handle that? |
You could simply have set barter rates. As a hypothetical (and not a real number), you could say that the traders would exchange a primary weapon for 'n' materials, or 'n2' minor runes, or perhaps a superior rune gets you a sword and shield set.
Again, this is a hypothetical, not a fully and completely thought out plan. I'm just considering concepts that would have the potential to be fully thought out and implemented. Something radical and different. Anything will have it's pros and cons. With a regulated (almost communistic) barter system you would lose likely the entire group of hard-core farmers from the game. Some people would miss out on something they consider fun (the whole fariming for imaginary wealth thing). But... you'd also remove an unwelcome outside influence in the EBay buyers.
A different hypothetical mentioned was the instant customization of items. Also not a bad idea, except I'd like to see that customized to an account, not a character. If my mesmer find a necro item, perhaps my necro would like to use it?
HalPlantagenet
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the state of the current Guild Wars economy and the difficulty of managing and reforming it played some role in the decision to create an entirely new game. The associated problems can be very subtle and interesting.
Given Arenanet's experience with Guild Wars 1, I expect they will do a much better job the second time around. Some of the issues I hope they address directly:
1. How to make trading more of a community building activity?
2. What is the right cost spectrum for a family of technically (but not aesthectically) similar items?
3. What is proper place of armor and weapon customization? Is there a role for what might be called "de-customization?"
4. Is there a role for player customizers? (I know WOW has something like this although I've never played it and don't know how successful it is.)
5. How should demand spikes, (i.e. the demand for Paragon and Dervish runes immediately after the release of Nightfall), be managed?
Given Arenanet's experience with Guild Wars 1, I expect they will do a much better job the second time around. Some of the issues I hope they address directly:
1. How to make trading more of a community building activity?
2. What is the right cost spectrum for a family of technically (but not aesthectically) similar items?
3. What is proper place of armor and weapon customization? Is there a role for what might be called "de-customization?"
4. Is there a role for player customizers? (I know WOW has something like this although I've never played it and don't know how successful it is.)
5. How should demand spikes, (i.e. the demand for Paragon and Dervish runes immediately after the release of Nightfall), be managed?
Tetris L
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jobudda
Ebay recently announced that they were banning the sale of items and gold from online games as it was effectively selling game code which belonged to the game developers. Therefore hopefully by the time Guild Wars 2 is released this problem will have completely disappeared, if not sooner.
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Mordakai
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
Again, this is only one thought out of the dozens yet to be thought of... but...
You could simply have set barter rates. As a hypothetical (and not a real number), you could say that the traders would exchange a primary weapon for 'n' materials, or 'n2' minor runes, or perhaps a superior rune gets you a sword and shield set. Again, this is a hypothetical, not a fully and completely thought out plan. I'm just considering concepts that would have the potential to be fully thought out and implemented. Something radical and different. Anything will have it's pros and cons. With a regulated (almost communistic) barter system you would lose likely the entire group of hard-core farmers from the game. Some people would miss out on something they consider fun (the whole fariming for imaginary wealth thing). But... you'd also remove an unwelcome outside influence in the EBay buyers. |
Otherwise people will just buy "X" material from the Farmers instead of Gold.
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
A different hypothetical mentioned was the instant customization of items. Also not a bad idea, except I'd like to see that customized to an account, not a character. If my mesmer find a necro item, perhaps my necro would like to use it?
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MSecorsky
Believe me, Mordakai, I am not by any means saying that the idea I posed is the best one, or even a good one. Simply a concept.
Here's a thought... if GW started from day 1 with having only customized items (to an account perhaps), that would be all people knew so it would be universally accepted. If GW2 comes out of the gate a certain way, that's all that GW2 people will know.
Here's a thought... if GW started from day 1 with having only customized items (to an account perhaps), that would be all people knew so it would be universally accepted. If GW2 comes out of the gate a certain way, that's all that GW2 people will know.
Sir Skullcrasher
I have to agree that locking all the rare items onto player's account and making it non-tradeable would solve this issues. But the backlash from this would be players whining or complaining how they want to transfer that rare items to their other accounts or let their friends borrow it.
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by Sir Skullcrasher
I have to agree that locking all the rare items onto player's account and making it non-tradeable would solve this issues. But the backlash from this would be players whining or complaining how they want to transfer that rare items to their other accounts or let their friends borrow it.
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Hmm... here's another thought that's certain to add a lot of discontent...
Don't allow trades, but allow one way transfers. I can transfer you a weapon in one transaction, but you can't give me anything back in that transaction... I'd have to trust you to create a new transaction. Human nature what it is, there are enough scum-sucking scammers out there to most likely reduce transfers to trusted friends or the stupid.
I hate that idea personally, but this isn't about likes, just ideas...
Guildmaster Cain
It would not just ruin ingame economy, like farmers do, but altogether, REMOVE it all from game. Which is not what Anet wants, since ingame economy is something all MMORPGS boats about...
Miss Persephone
The removal of gold from ebay should make a difference to the ease of buying it in GW2 as compared to GW1. It's true that where there is a will, there's a way; but most people are only willing to accept so much risk. Ebay had a system of user feedback and rules which allowed compensation for goods not received; buying from a rogue website is much more risky.
Removing gold from the game certainly won't work. As has already been stated, some other form of material would replace it. If you had some trader 1 on 1 system, people would just farm the easiest materials possible to exchange for the rarest at the trader. Having gold makes working out the actual value of items much easier for the players, and allows them not to have to carry around 1000 pieces of steel; thats the point of real world currency.
I'm not sure locking items is the answer either. If GW2 has similar professions to GW1, then what use would a customised Urgoz Longbow be to me if I have no ranger (to use an example)? Weapons seem to be the items which people covet the most, and I really don't relish having to farm something over and over and over and hope for a drop in order to acquire a nice weapon that I could have bought.
The only answer I can see that realistically works is having a dedicated team who look out for this kind of stuff and ban accounts. Farmers will only buy so many real life accounts and get them banned before they decide its not worth it anymore.
Removing gold from the game certainly won't work. As has already been stated, some other form of material would replace it. If you had some trader 1 on 1 system, people would just farm the easiest materials possible to exchange for the rarest at the trader. Having gold makes working out the actual value of items much easier for the players, and allows them not to have to carry around 1000 pieces of steel; thats the point of real world currency.
I'm not sure locking items is the answer either. If GW2 has similar professions to GW1, then what use would a customised Urgoz Longbow be to me if I have no ranger (to use an example)? Weapons seem to be the items which people covet the most, and I really don't relish having to farm something over and over and over and hope for a drop in order to acquire a nice weapon that I could have bought.
The only answer I can see that realistically works is having a dedicated team who look out for this kind of stuff and ban accounts. Farmers will only buy so many real life accounts and get them banned before they decide its not worth it anymore.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Guildmaster Cain
It would not just ruin ingame economy, like farmers do, but altogether, REMOVE it all from game. Which is not what Anet wants, since ingame economy is something all MMORPGS boats about...
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Think about it... why do people grind to get more gold? So they can get "leet" stuff.
Well, we're not taking away their "leet" stuff. In fact, if you have "leet" stuff in a system with no trading, we KNOW you earned it. There's no accusations of scamming or ebaying... you own it, so you must have earned it.
I honestly never understood why this concept was not popular, but then, I'm not a farmer. Maybe a trader can explain it to me?
Miss Persephone - a valid point about getting useless items. I guess the upside, maybe such a drop would encourage you to make a Ranger? But, I see your point and that is a downside to a "no-trade" system.
As for other downsides of no gold, such as buying 15k armor - this would be an easy fix. You accumulate non-transferable tokens to cash in for your armor. Again, people wearing the stuff have earned it. And there will, of course, be max versions of all armor and weapons (Collector) available to those of us who don't feel like grinding.
flamegrilled cheese
Ebay have forbidden virtual sales of MMO gold or items because of confusion over who is the rightful owner of it. The MMO company or the player. Happened a few weeks ago. Still dosen't stop sites other than ebay though.
Shanaeri Rynale
I don't think you can. So long as there is any kind of ingame currency or trade people will find ways to farm to sell it.
I'm not sure the effects on the actual GW 1 economy have been, but I do know that many of the nerfs we have had over the years would not have happend had it been for Gold for cash selling
Thinking totally laterally, off the wall and out of my tree, maybe a system like second life would work, where you buy optional stuff via the in game store. I.e it's all micropayment based.
I'm not sure I like that idea myself, but it would get rid of gold for cash sellers and replace it by an offical system
I'm not sure the effects on the actual GW 1 economy have been, but I do know that many of the nerfs we have had over the years would not have happend had it been for Gold for cash selling
Thinking totally laterally, off the wall and out of my tree, maybe a system like second life would work, where you buy optional stuff via the in game store. I.e it's all micropayment based.
I'm not sure I like that idea myself, but it would get rid of gold for cash sellers and replace it by an offical system
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by Miss Persephone
Removing gold from the game certainly won't work. As has already been stated, some other form of material would replace it. If you had some trader 1 on 1 system, people would just farm the easiest materials possible to exchange for the rarest at the trader. Having gold makes working out the actual value of items much easier for the players, and allows them not to have to carry around 1000 pieces of steel; thats the point of real world currency.
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Quote:
| I'm not sure locking items is the answer either. If GW2 has similar professions to GW1, then what use would a customised Urgoz Longbow be to me if I have no ranger (to use an example)? Weapons seem to be the items which people covet the most, and I really don't relish having to farm something over and over and over and hope for a drop in order to acquire a nice weapon that I could have bought. |
Quote:
| The only answer I can see that realistically works is having a dedicated team who look out for this kind of stuff and ban accounts. Farmers will only buy so many real life accounts and get them banned before they decide its not worth it anymore. |
Sir Skullcrasher
What if there is no gold system in GW2? What if every weapons and items is now crafted from materials only and don't need gold to craft?
Miss Persephone
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
If locking were account wide, you could either create a ranger or trade it to a 'weapons trader' one for one for something you actually do need, and allow a different player access to that weapon.
I think that's because you're still stuck in the mindset that every game to date has put us into, with gold, platinum, value, rarity, etc. |
A weapons trader could work; but think about the range of weapons in GW1. Although all max weapons function the same, some cost more simply because they look better and are harder to acquire. Seems mighty cumbersome to me to have a trader where you can pick any weapon avaliable. I'm not sure this is what the playerbase would want at all; an equality of everything.
I see what you are getting at, trying to get people to think outside the box and the like, but I don't like being told I'm stuck in a mindset; it's not just every game to date that has put value into gold/platinum whatever, its how real life economies work. Ingame economies are a miniature version of economies in the real world as such. ANet would need some seriously awesome economists in order to have a completly controlled economy that functioned. What about event items? Miniatures? Currently these kind of items have no merchant value but find a value among the players.
Imo, having no gold and making all weapons, materials and the like the same would make the game boring and stale. If I can easily get anything ingame, whats the point of playing?
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by Miss Persephone
Imo, having no gold and making all weapons, materials and the like the same would make the game boring and stale. If I can easily get anything ingame, whats the point of playing?
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... For the content.
This, of course, places a heavy burden on ANet. They would need to replace with quality what some people would be missing.
Sir Skullcrasher
Money don't buy you happiness, it just makes you look better!
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Miss Persephone
Imo, having no gold and making all weapons, materials and the like the same would make the game boring and stale. If I can easily get anything ingame, whats the point of playing? |
On Topic: This all seems like an inevitable problem. There will always be *some* way for eBayers to find a way to exploit the game, the biggest being cash. It seems as though Arenanet is pretty good at getting at the people selling the items and other services. It's the "companies" who actually sell the gold itself that's a problem, mainly because they have many resources to sell from.
I'm going to keep watching this thread, I find this pretty concerning.
Miss Persephone
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Ah so you only care about the money and goods. Ok.
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MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by Miss Persephone
Don't be patronising and rude. I'm saying that part of the enjoyment of the game is the challenge of getting rare stuff.
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Of course, if there was no gold, then gold sellers become extinct.
Chilly Ress
Just to clarify a few things. All GW gold has been removed from eBay. You must go to the store's actual website to purchase said gold.
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by Chilly Ress
Just to clarify a few things. All GW gold has been removed from eBay. You must go to the store's actual website to purchase said gold.
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Hundreds of sellers of gold.
October Jade
Tetris has it right on this one. You cannot dictatorially equate the value of one item with another; another market will simply emerge in its place. The same thing happened in the U.S. back when the government had a fixed price for gold certificates. People simply cheated the system through relentless arbitrage.
The only way to remove the abuse of player-to-player transactions is to prevent them entirely. This would mean a few drastic changes from the current system:
1) You could only buy and sell materials, dyes, runes, etc. through the traders. I wouldn't care if they adopted this system now, provided the merchants' buy/sell gap was lessened.
2) There would need to be an auction system for rare-skinned weapons and other things that are not carried by traders. However, the seller would have to be willing to relinquish control of the item before it went to auction for an up-front price based on previous sales of similar items. Otherwise the auction would be subject to underhanded behavior such as inflating the price with a second account or having guildmates bid.
3) The trash bin would become the only means of getting rid of items. If players were able to drop them on the ground, this would probably become the de facto means of trade.
I might add to this list as I ponder the idea longer, but this is a good start. My main intention was to debunk the socialist/bartering suggestions that were made prior to my post. Simply put, they don't function well in the real world; they won't work for a virtual one either.
The only way to remove the abuse of player-to-player transactions is to prevent them entirely. This would mean a few drastic changes from the current system:
1) You could only buy and sell materials, dyes, runes, etc. through the traders. I wouldn't care if they adopted this system now, provided the merchants' buy/sell gap was lessened.
2) There would need to be an auction system for rare-skinned weapons and other things that are not carried by traders. However, the seller would have to be willing to relinquish control of the item before it went to auction for an up-front price based on previous sales of similar items. Otherwise the auction would be subject to underhanded behavior such as inflating the price with a second account or having guildmates bid.
3) The trash bin would become the only means of getting rid of items. If players were able to drop them on the ground, this would probably become the de facto means of trade.
I might add to this list as I ponder the idea longer, but this is a good start. My main intention was to debunk the socialist/bartering suggestions that were made prior to my post. Simply put, they don't function well in the real world; they won't work for a virtual one either.
Obey The Cat
mobs in gw2 won't drop gold when killed, that's stated in the article.
= no farmers
= no gold-ebay'ing
kkthxbye
= no farmers
= no gold-ebay'ing
kkthxbye
Yunas Ele
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
True, true...
Hmm... here's another thought that's certain to add a lot of discontent... Don't allow trades, but allow one way transfers. I can transfer you a weapon in one transaction, but you can't give me anything back in that transaction... I'd have to trust you to create a new transaction. Human nature what it is, there are enough scum-sucking scammers out there to most likely reduce transfers to trusted friends or the stupid. I hate that idea personally, but this isn't about likes, just ideas... |
Secondly, what good does it do? Only being allowed to trade with trusted friends? I honestly can't see anything good coming out of that.... Trading with other people is an important part of the game.
Honestly, there isn't any way I can think of that can stop ebayers without also making the game worse for non-ebay players (such as, no trading, all items customized, etc...)