"Emergent Complexity" skill system..how will this change the gameplay
Lifeinthefridge
i hope they retain the 8 skill method honestly, but with a persistant world you can walk around with with no load screens how would that work. Also I hope they keep skill descriptions but Id love to see better quest rewards speaking of gw2
BeefEater4:20
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lightblade
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Originally Posted by bug_out
AS much as I hate to say it, if using skils in the game comes down to button mashing, a la Street Fighter, I won't be playing it.
Hopefully it won't be like that, cuz I am really looking forward to GW2. |
Just think...there are way more Street Fighter tournaments than GW tournaments.
Guardian of the Light
Hmmm interesting. This means that 1 skill could have 3 uses depending on the situation. Seems pretty cool to me.
Balance-wise I'll wait till the beta to find out how they can do this.
O and BTW I wonder if it also depends on what you target is doing too.
Balance-wise I'll wait till the beta to find out how they can do this.
O and BTW I wonder if it also depends on what you target is doing too.
Eilsys
Here's what I see it meaning: A-net doesn't want to do any more skill rebalancing. Gimmick builds like the Touch Ranger ARE emergent gameplay; I somehow doubt A-net predicted the Touchie (or the 55, for that matter). So was the Spearmarshal title.
I guess now they want the "emergent gameplay" to be less Build Wars, and more clicking furiously for combo's.
I guess now they want the "emergent gameplay" to be less Build Wars, and more clicking furiously for combo's.
Kakumei
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
I still never understood why they added indicators in LA/Kaineng/Kamadan to tell you how to access other continents...
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Originally Posted by Lyra
SaGa Frontier 2 stuff
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Also, "emergent complexity"? That's the most ridiculous buzzword I've ever heard.
NoChance
wow... a lot of optimism here -- from this quote, I personally have a very pessimistic view of GW2 ... to me, it looks like Anet is really dumbing down the game -- just the fact that they're trying to cater to those people who have such short attention spans that they can't read skill descriptions .. that's a really bad sign to me.
personally, I already didn't think the skill descriptions were good enough -- I actually wanted them to be more precise and "lawyerly", instead of the often vague/misleading descriptions they have now... seems like that's definitely not going to happen!
I'll definitely check out the beta -- but i'm not optimistic.
personally, I already didn't think the skill descriptions were good enough -- I actually wanted them to be more precise and "lawyerly", instead of the often vague/misleading descriptions they have now... seems like that's definitely not going to happen!
I'll definitely check out the beta -- but i'm not optimistic.
captainccc
Seems as though the creators of GW2 are thinking very...adolecent. People must be crying to them about guild wars sayin its to hard and complicated for them to understand. GW 2 will certainly attract a bunch of 12 year olds with very short attention spans, but they will be amused the the jumping and swinging thats for sure. "But A-Net, theres only 1 race! Thats not like the other MMO's i'm scared! Oooooh Char play! Thats soo uberz 1337 now I can pwnazrd stoff with my hammer of warriorness"
Unsure effects? Stupid. Skills that do random things with random situations? Stupid. The more I hear about GW2 the more I hate it.
Unsure effects? Stupid. Skills that do random things with random situations? Stupid. The more I hear about GW2 the more I hate it.
Omega X
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Originally Posted by Theus
So..if your method is true,We'll have to grind for skills...
..Yeah.If thats true,RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that.RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that hard. |
Grind is relative. The tasks it takes to get from point A to point B or the work:reward ratio.
For example, you think that going from 1 to 100 levels is grind. Technically its right because your goal is 1 to 100. But the majority of work between levels determines whether the grind is there or not.
Obviously, the system she described was one that rewarded experimentation and not grind. IT can only grind when you want a certain skill because of the work of experimentation to get from point A to point B.
But some people cry grind whether if its to buy the skill or to earn it, because they still have to put effort into it in order to be rewarded with that skill.
Which is then just being lazy because you have to play the game to progress in the game.
The Fox
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Hes talking about a new learning system for skills.
Reminds me a bit of Saga Frontier 2. You have basic fighting skills (Swing, Feint, Block, Ready, Focus, Beat, Charge). Certain combos create new skills. like.....Swing two times, and it gives you access to the skill Roll Beat (unblockable), that sort of thing. It lets you learn new skills to the technique you like to play (if you use swing and beat a lot, you learn more powerful multiple blows, if you use focus and charge before you attack, you get stronger single blows). |
unmatchedfury
I say we wait to see what happens. But i simply fail to see how you could have a console type fighting system without a console. The skill system as it stands right now makes guild wrs as good as it is.
most importantly i hope they stay true to GW1
most importantly i hope they stay true to GW1
Redfeather1975
The quote sounds like the game will have less skills, but the complexity of what the skills do will depend on how much you experiment with them.
Sounds like potential 'combo city', which may very well be cool.
Stand+Fire spell=fire burst AOE
Run+Fire spell=Flaming dash
Jump+Fire spell=Flaming slam
Cold spell+Fire spell=Steam AOE
Cold spell+Fire spell+jump=float
Maybe somthing like that?
Sounds like potential 'combo city', which may very well be cool.
Stand+Fire spell=fire burst AOE
Run+Fire spell=Flaming dash
Jump+Fire spell=Flaming slam
Cold spell+Fire spell=Steam AOE
Cold spell+Fire spell+jump=float
Maybe somthing like that?
Lepht
god, I hope thats not the case
Thallandor
Jumping + timed barrage = BOOM HEADSHOT! (critical hit)
Maybe something like this lawl.
Maybe something like this lawl.
Kool Pajamas
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Originally Posted by Redfeather1975
The quote sounds like the game will have less skills, but the complexity of what the skills do will depend on how much you experiment with them.
Sounds like potential 'combo city', which may very well be cool. Stand+Fire spell=fire burst AOE Run+Fire spell=Flaming dash Jump+Fire spell=Flaming slam Cold spell+Fire spell=Steam AOE Cold spell+Fire spell+jump=float Maybe somthing like that? |
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by captainccc
The more I hear about GW2 the more I hate it.
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But it seems to me people who are calling anything amazing or crappy before actually experiencing it for themselves really have no validity to their opinions.
Right now GW2 is just HYPE
Its all just ideas being fed to us. Theres no screenshots, no game footage, no playable demo.
How can you hate something that doesnt really exist yet?
The Ernada
Experimentation with skills to get different effects sounds like a VERY cool idea..... BUT ..... we already have that in build synergies. We already have experimentation in how and what skills work well together. We already have skills that have different effects depending on the conditions.
We don't really need twitch based button mashing combo skills in a game that's not really built for it.
We don't really need twitch based button mashing combo skills in a game that's not really built for it.
Terra Xin
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Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light
Hmmm interesting. This means that 1 skill could have 3 uses depending on the situation. Seems pretty cool to me.
Balance-wise I'll wait till the beta to find out how they can do this. O and BTW I wonder if it also depends on what you target is doing too. |
This is the kind of information I was looking for. I really do hope that GW2 is completely different than GW1, and that it doesnt get passed of as "bah, that could've just been made into another chapter for GW1 instead."
Though, i might get a culture shock (I think that's the right term) if I get 100 years into the future and suddenly everything is so drastically different.
clawofcrimson
I am definitely interested and will try it...but I like the 8 'descriptive' skills system they have now... I dont want to see 'more' immature 12 year olds in GW than already floods the shores of battle isles 
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Redfeather1975
The quote sounds like the game will have less skills, but the complexity of what the skills do will depend on how much you experiment with them.
Sounds like potential 'combo city', which may very well be cool. Stand+Fire spell=fire burst AOE Run+Fire spell=Flaming dash Jump+Fire spell=Flaming slam Cold spell+Fire spell=Steam AOE Cold spell+Fire spell+jump=float Maybe somthing like that? |
It might not be too bad, think of something like this:
"Flame Blast"
If used against a target at long range, it sends out a wave of fire that does xx damage.
If used against a target at mid range, it sends out a wave of fire that does xx damage and deals xx damage to foes adjacent to target.
If used against an adjacent target, it flares out and strikes all adjacent foes for xx damage.
If jumping while using Flame Blast, it deals xx more damage to target, and xx less damage to any adjacent targets hit by the spell.
If running while using Flame Blast, you leave a trail of fire in your tracks in the next 3 seconds that deals xx damage per second for 10 seconds to all foes that are in the trail.
If crouching while using Flame Blast, you hit all nearby foes for xx damage (less than the adjacent damage)
etc...
And basically, this would be the effects of the skill, whereas the description on the skill would say something like:
"Flame Blast" - 15e (or whatever) 2c 20r - You ignite the air around you, creating waves of fire.
So the description is simplistic, non-descript, yet the skill has many "hidden" effects and damage, depending on how you use it. You'd have to actually experiment with it in order to find out all the cool stuff it does. I could see this as a good thing, possibly.
clawofcrimson
so we end up getting 10 skills...that do 20 things each? boooring
Darksun
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Originally Posted by clawofcrimson
so we end up getting 10 skills...that do 20 things each? boooring
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Besides, why is having 200 skills better than having 10 that each do 20 different things? Do you really like skill Icons that much?
Zinger314
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Originally Posted by Darksun
Everything thing you are saying is assumption/speculation.
Besides, why is having 200 skills better than having 10 that each do 20 different things? Do you really like skill Icons that much? |
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
It's much, much less confusing, at the least. The World of Warcraft UI (which every major MMO seems to be copying) can hold room for about 100 buttons easily without hassle. Manipulating 10 skills to do 20 different things is way, way too complicated.
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Of course, it's all hypothetical, but I see no problem with a skill being simplistic, easy to figure out, and yet hard to master. Once you figure out how to use a skill efficently, that one skill will become your baby, and so on. It would become less build-dependant, and more skill-dependant, meaning not just the skill itself, but rather your ability to use the skills.
AJD
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
I would much rather deal with 10 skills that can do 20 different things, than try to figure out what 100-200 skills do, that are scatterred all over my UI. No way. Not to mention those numbers seem way off, anyway. I'm thinking more like our standard 8-skill setup, and each skill having maybe 10 different effects depending on the situation. 2-3 different effects would be most used, while the other 7-8 would be too highly situational.
Of course, it's all hypothetical, but I see no problem with a skill being simplistic, easy to figure out, and yet hard to master. Once you figure out how to use a skill efficently, that one skill will become your baby, and so on. It would become less build-dependant, and more skill-dependant, meaning not just the skill itself, but rather your ability to use the skills. |
lightblade
If any of you played PoP series (Prince of Persia), you'll know how the sand dagger is like one skill that do 20 different things. And in "The 2 Thrones", dagger tail is also one skill that can do 2 different things. It's a chain whip, in which you can use it to swing across platforms, wrap it around enemy's neck to sufficate it, or just whirl around you and slice everyone around you.
I really like it this way. It's something that tries to make the players more creative.
I really like it this way. It's something that tries to make the players more creative.
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by lightblade
I really like it this way. It's something that tries to make the players more creative.
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Rhedd
If one more person says, "I played an ACTION game like that once, and I loved it!", I'm going to scream.
I love action games. I play them.
I love fighting games. I play them.
I love Guild Wars. I play it.
THREE DIFFERENT ACTIVITIES!
I love action games. I play them.
I love fighting games. I play them.
I love Guild Wars. I play it.
THREE DIFFERENT ACTIVITIES!
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Rhedd
If one more person says, "I played an ACTION game like that once, and I loved it!", I'm going to scream.
I love action games. I play them. I love fighting games. I play them. I love Guild Wars. I play it. THREE DIFFERENT ACTIVITIES! |
I love Guild Wars 2. I will play it!
*hint* *hint* it's a different game.
Rhedd
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Well then add a fourth activity:
I love Guild Wars 2. I will play it! *hint* *hint* it's a different game. |
If you heard that Soul Calibur IV would have "new, innovative gameplay" that was a lot more like Mario Kart, would you be looking forward to it?
Why not? It's a totally different game!
The Ernada
Well, they say they're simplifying things and in a way they are. But what about balance? Imagine Axe Chop. Axe Chop is balanced when you're just plain ol' chopping. But when you do a dash, jump and then chop, it does insane damage. Now imagine trying to discuss skills like that. "Axe chop is imbalanced when you run, jump and then use it!!! Nerf Axe chop when you run, jump and chop!!!"
And then imagine trying to figure out what combo your opponent used on you that was so overpowering.
Yeah Im only half joking but you can see where it might get unnecessarily confusing.... And yes this is all speculation. I just like brainstorming...
And then imagine trying to figure out what combo your opponent used on you that was so overpowering.
Yeah Im only half joking but you can see where it might get unnecessarily confusing.... And yes this is all speculation. I just like brainstorming...
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Rhedd
*hint* *hint* Then it'll draw a different crowd, and possibly lose its existing fanbase.
If you heard that Soul Calibur IV would have "new, innovative gameplay" that was a lot more like Mario Kart, would you be looking forward to it? Why not? It's a totally different game! |
Although... Soul Calibur Cart does sound kinda fun... I might just buy that!
Rhedd
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Nah, I just wouldn't buy it. I wouldn't complain about it.
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Because, to continue my comparison, when Soul Calibur IV: Super Kart! (as fun as that sounds ^_^) comes out, you will no longer be able to play Soul Calibur III with your friends.
Oh, sure, the game will still be playable, and you can still have all of the vs AI matches you want, but the REASON you love the game will end.
Life-destroying tragedy? Not really.
Something to happily look forward to? Not really.
Former Ruling
For alittle comedy to break all the "GW is doomed" talk:
Jump Frenzy Spike. Everyone counts 3..2..1 /Jump FRENZY. Because Frenzy does 200 AoE Dmg when you jump.
Jump Frenzy Spike. Everyone counts 3..2..1 /Jump FRENZY. Because Frenzy does 200 AoE Dmg when you jump.
Kityn
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Originally Posted by The Ernada
Well, they say they're simplifying things and in a way they are. But what about balance? Imagine Axe Chop. Axe Chop is balanced when you're just plain ol' chopping. But when you do a dash, jump and then chop, it does insane damage. Now imagine trying to discuss skills like that. "Axe chop is imbalanced when you run, jump and then use it!!! Nerf Axe chop when you run, jump and chop!!!"
And then imagine trying to figure out what combo your opponent used on you that was so overpowering. Yeah Im only half joking but you can see where it might get unnecessarily confusing.... And yes this is all speculation. I just like brainstorming... |
About the button mashing thing. Are we not already doing that? We already have combos that require us to hit one button after another. For instance look at the Assassin class. Now I can see a problem if we have to hit more than 1 button at a time to pull off a combo and personally I hope Anet is not going that route. Here are a few things I can see that can affect skills. The environment if implimented (such as rain,sleet,snow,muddy terrain,ect). Where your position is to the enemy. What condiotions you are under (dazed,blind,bleeding,ect.) I am sure there are many more. Already we can see some of these in GW. I can see GW2 going further with this and making it truely a Gamers game.
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Rhedd
True. So why do GW lovers complain about the possibility of GW2 being so different?
Because, to continue my comparison, when Soul Calibur IV: Super Kart! (as fun as that sounds ^_^) comes out, you will no longer be able to play Soul Calibur III with your friends. Oh, sure, the game will still be playable, and you can still have all of the vs AI matches you want, but the REASON you love the game will end. Life-destroying tragedy? Not really. Something to happily look forward to? Not really. |
Regardless, I don't see how changing how the skills work, or adding jumping, or having persistent zones can be at all likened to changing a fighting game into a racing game. It's a different game to be sure, it's not a different game genre.
Besides, it's not only conjecture, it's entirely based on a vague quote. I have faith that Anet will do it right, and not willy-nilly like the terrible example I gave. Do it to it, guys!
The Ernada
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Originally Posted by czymann
About the button mashing thing. Are we not already doing that? We already have combos that require us to hit one button after another. For instance look at the Assassin class. Now I can see a problem if we have to hit more than 1 button at a time to pull off a combo and personally I hope Anet is not going that route. Here are a few things I can see that can affect skills. The environment if implimented (such as rain,sleet,snow,muddy terrain,ect). Where your position is to the enemy. What condiotions you are under (dazed,blind,bleeding,ect.) I am sure there are many more. Already we can see some of these in GW. I can see GW2 going further with this and making it truely a Gamers game.
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semantic
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Originally Posted by The Ernada
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Sorry but if you want to discuss things, let's be honest and call things for what they are. Jumping + using a skill for a different effect IS a button mashing mechanic. |
arcanemacabre
Combos and twitch-style skills would be too much, methinks. I mean, I would love it, but lag would see to that kind of play style being painful, aggrevating, and overall stressful. However, like I mentioned earlier, if the skills act differently depending on the situation (for instance, what range your target is at at the time of activation), I don't see a problem with that.
Keep in mind that they also described breakable and moveable environments. This could have a huge bearing on your skills, as well. Imagine Meteor actually creating a small crater that may cause your enemy to lose their footing if they stepped in it. Imagine Earthquake actually causing fissures and uneven ground that may even cause everyone to fall if they run too fast. These types of spells might also have different effects if they hit different kinds of ground, like ice, or stone, even.
These kind of effects may seem random at first, too. At least, until you realize how it works, and then are able to use it against your enemy. It's a whole new level of strategy that could be reached, if done right. I don't see how that could be bad at all. Especially because it's incredibly balanced, and like I said, easy to use, difficult to master.
Keep in mind that they also described breakable and moveable environments. This could have a huge bearing on your skills, as well. Imagine Meteor actually creating a small crater that may cause your enemy to lose their footing if they stepped in it. Imagine Earthquake actually causing fissures and uneven ground that may even cause everyone to fall if they run too fast. These types of spells might also have different effects if they hit different kinds of ground, like ice, or stone, even.
These kind of effects may seem random at first, too. At least, until you realize how it works, and then are able to use it against your enemy. It's a whole new level of strategy that could be reached, if done right. I don't see how that could be bad at all. Especially because it's incredibly balanced, and like I said, easy to use, difficult to master.
captainccc
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
How can you hate something that doesnt really exist yet?
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