Hard Mode: Necessary Elitism?

Imo it's because hard mode would make LDOA too easy.

Here's another thing...

When I was reading Gaile's posts regarding Hard Mode, she mentioned that the non-Hard Mode (regular mode, easy mode, etc.) would be EASIER than it is currently. This is to include no fleeing from AoE, etc.

So even if you want (or if the game requires it) the other players to have the Protector title, if they gain it during the new "easy mode" it wouldn't be as hard or as "proving" as when you got it.

Just food for thought.

I think hard mode is an attempt to refocus the game on it's multiplayer nature. There are so many threads on here about how PUGs are dying. Yet, even before we see what hard mode entails, elitism has somehow become necessary.

Everything said by developers seem to hint that difficulty will be created by proper bars, and better AI. I don't see why it is necessary for hard mode PvE to degenerate down to having an MM, SF, and so forth.

Anyway, seems to me if you are being very selective, you are looking for nothing more than heroes. Not a multiplayer experience.

Hard mode sucks!

Its just like bonuses, where people end up saying "bonus or i leave" in some places like fire islands...

I understand the serious people who just do that with friends/guild/special "hard mode" group, but i just know that 75% of the people who are going to try hard mode are going to be complete n00bs.

Are you kidding me?

Oh, it's sarcasm lol okay good, I'm glad, or I'd have had to hurt you.

Games are getting easier and easier. There is no console game that I can't beat in a weekend. I remember when NES/SNES games would last me MONTHS.

I had nightfall beaten in a weekend, and factions beat BEFORE I WENT TO BED the day that I bought it.

Hard mode will be something fresh. I hope they make hard mode SO RIDICULOUSLY HARD that you can't be run anywhere, can't pay anyone to take you through anything, so that when you get hard mode titles, they will MEAN something.

"Require all humans"?

Unless you're playing with guildmates you know and trust, heroes are always better than humans. Dunkoro can keep me alive. I wouldn't trust a human monk farther than I could kick him.

I suppose I should collect protector titles now though to compliment my success of hard mode.

I hope they don't just make it slightly harder. I'm a little sad that they're making normal mode afflicted explosions easier. I think they should leave afflicted alone for normal mode, and make it do TRIPLE damage in hard mode. Boss afflicted explosions should be instant kill in hard mode. Make players require SKILL for once, and not money for a runner.

Oh don't worry. ArenaNET has come out with this new magical device that let's them control their customers' minds and make them friendly and without elitist attitudes.

It's not arenaNET's fault there is elitism. It's human nature. The way I see it, if you aren't good enough to complete something, you don't deserve to get it completed. Get better, and you'll complete it.

(no, I am not a high ranked player in halls, I did not IWAY, I did not Blood Spike. I don't even PLAY in halls ever! But the part that gets me about gw is that you can just PAY someone to play your game for you. You then proceed to call other, more hard working players noobs when really, you didn't do a thing)

I think all areas should be full of monsters that WRECK runners, to prevent people paying for mission completion.

Please aNET, this is your last chance to provide us with a title that MATTERS. Give us something to REALLY measure players' skill with.

Throw everything you have at me, I will cut them all down.

A huge proportion of players are of.. limited skill. Making hard mode very hard is going to invoke a mass backlash.

There was massive backlash when DoA was released (and when Mallyx was buffed to be more difficult. Has anyone killed him since?) That didn't stop ArenaNet from making it too difficult.

I know that Hard Mode will be effecting normal loot, what about chests?

Hard mode is just a way to force people to do things they could do on their own, but won't.

Want HARD mode? Stick with Noobie armor through out the entire game. Do not buy ANY armor. Stick with your Noobie weapon through the entire game. Do not buy ANY weapons. Play every mission SOLO, No Henchies, no Heros, just you. Do not pick up any drops, ever!

That ought to make it a bit Harder don't you think???

will mallyx and urgoz and kanaxai still have only 3 greens drops when beaten in hard mode?Im betting there might be something more.

I hope ANet nerfs your chatbox. DEE DUH DEE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed 100%.

I like the way you think.

The real question I would have is that if hard mode is truely "hard", when will people begin to open up and chance other players? I look at it that I'm the greatest player on the planet. That said, I have 9 different professions with all 3 campaigns done.

The problem with "Elitism" from the core is everyone thinks they're the best thing since sliced bread. When are you going to go on faith of a players skill?

More curiousity than anything else.

I find something of the same thing, however going back to some of the old NES or PC games it is hard because of the same reason that the DoA is hard - they cheat. Just back then we didn't rely on lots of other humans as they were balanced around single player. There are exceptions.

Me too, for me I prefer a killing field or a challenge for PvE. One of the things I really preferred for prophecies for was the gradual increase in difficulty - ToPK (while a late addition) is a doable challenge with hench only and I could always find a place that was a challenge to solo with *any* class.

My hope is that they allow 7 heroes to be included so I can do a whole team build also, even if that team is hard to get through (even better). I also hope they have better skill bars and at least have a few "choke points" where we face balanced teams and a few "gimmick builds" that a balanced team build would blow through but kills the general gimmick builds.

I wouldn't go that far, but I mostly agree. I hate human groups for other reasons also, I've hench'ed and now hero'ed everything I have gotten.

I'm doing the same thing, Unfortunately a protector title can be purchased now. I'm not sure that all of them are, but most of the missions I had to work for now have runners that do masters/bonus and I refuse to use them for ones I have not gotten.

This, I do not agree. Afflicted explosions should be reduced for the benefit of a number of classes (assassins for one). Especially with a "hard mode" the normal mode should be fairly straight forward - non-casual players will blow through any normal mode stuff anyway and allowing more casual player through will increase sales (and help us all in the long run). Nor do I think a boss kill should be "insta-kill" - there is no "balance" around that. I would agree with "insta-kill unless a prot monk has had their way with you" (or other damage reduction class/skill set), but a total wipe of every tank on a boss kill is kinda lame.

To some extent, I like the idea of allowing casual players to get things and have other things that only experienced good players can get. I want all level to be happy, not just one or the other.

Welcome to the online gaming world. pretty much every online game allows this, though with other games it comes with purchasing better weapons and GW is purchasing higher ranked titles.

Hard mode for sure, regular who cares?

In computer science we have a class of problems that fit in this category, in Artificial Intelligence it is called a "Turing test". That is, can we create a program that takes human input and responds in a way that makes the human think another human is responding? We argue if this is possible or not - personally I fall on the "impossible" side. In this case there is not going to ever be a simple title that really measures a player's skill, though some will be better than others. There will *always* be the persistent gob that is the lone person pulled through every single mission (hard mode or not, and for every title out there) or a group of people willing to pull that gob through for money. Anet will *never* provide this because it is impossible to do so, if you really need this then I suggest you quit playing online or multi-player games (or at the least only play within your guild or friends list).

Last Day Dawns?

The only missions that can really be run are the lame Tyria missions (Ascention Missions, among others). Those are easy enough to do with Heroes.

Let me requote your lack of reading comprehension.

I would have thought "immediately" was implied, which is in context of the original post. But no...

Lots of the Elonan ones are quite runnable - hang around the outposts Ruins of Morah, Jennur's Horde, Dzoganur Bastion, and a few of the others that people tend to have trouble getting masters. They may not be *solo* runners, however they are still purchased.

Lets face it, your 2 minion masters and two SF ele groups leave a possible four people to be run through most missions should you choose to do so. Given that people are getting upwards of 4-8k per person on missions that take 10 minutes to complete, not bad profit. I'm sure a decent 7 man group could make it through Gates of Madness - less as they gained experience doing it, 20-30k (or more) for a masters run divvied up? Again not bad profit - probably not something people are going to sit and spam local to get, however there are plenty of running groups out there that do this kind of thing.

Cantha would more than likely be harder due to several masters level completions needing a fast time but I bet it is doable, at the least you can eventually find a PUG to get you through the one or two not purchasable. Both in Tyria and Elona it is quite possible to purchase a protector title and if they are semi-smart almost anyone can afford it if they trade their trade contracts in for rubies/sapphires.

But to be honest I fear the 'hard' mose as it reaks more of more time consuming and/or frustrating rather than making it more challenging in a fun way.

And Factions on 'hard' mode? Yeck.

Personally I got all my protector titles with either only henchies/heros or the occsional human. I like my game that way, such that I don't have to stand around for hours waiting for a good enough party to gather to be able to do a mission.

Dear God, timed missions harder? Not my idea of fun.

To me, hard mode simply is a way of asking the people that play "how much punishment will you put up with to get a new title?"

I will more than likely not bother, unless they have actually added some fun rather than harder stuff that is exactly the same as before.

"Oh look a dwarf that takes 12 hits to die instead of 8, woohoo...and oh wait he ressurects now...double woohoo"

A Protector title may be required to access Hard Mode which would then take care of elitism.

If it's not required to play Hard mode, relying on the Protector title isn't as good a filter as getting players to call their skills. Somone may have all 3 prot titles on 6 chars, but may not have it on the char they're currently playing. I'll take whoever and then ask them to ding skills. If skillbar is crap and they won't change it, they get the boot.

I do wonder what to expect from hard mode. What types of players will be happy. The Title Chasers or the Expensive Armor Buyers or the Braggarts, it would be nice if all were, but its gonna be tough.

All the monsters are higher level?
Double the number of monsters at each location?
Maximum party size cut in half?
You have to have a party consisting of a specific suite of professions?
But don't tell what that suite is, let folks figure it out by playing over and over.
You have to have certain Elite skills available?
But don't tell what Elites are needed where, let folks figure it out by playing over and over.
Different maps?
Different monsters?
Shorter timer (for timed mission), or make all missions timed?

There are many ways for the game to be modified to make it harder, the question is will anyone play it that way? Will the rewards be worth the added trouble? And what will those rewards do to the non-Hard mode players? If you make super-duper Green weapons available in Hard mode, then what happens when people use them in non-hard mode missions and areas? If you make Gold drops larger in hard mode, that could effect the economics of the game, putting too much money into circulation causes inflation, effectively pricing non-hard mode players out of the marketplace.

A tough balancing act, keep the people who are "tired" of normal mode interested in the game, while not driving all the normal-mode-only players away to some other game. I hope the designers are working through all the potential scenarios.

Yeah. I was playing with human monks the other day and they would NOT heal the minions! At least Dunkoro, Talkorah, and Mhenlo know what their job is.

I'd rather them heal the minions then bring Searing Flames and Bane Signet.
Thunderhead Keep Bonus ftl.

I don't think Hard Mode is necessary. When players say things such as, "Oh I didn't like it, it was too easy!" That's just silly macho-rpg talk. Why would they still be logged into GW playing on your team if they actually wanted to stop playing the game for being "too easy."

I think elistism is stupid and it's mostly done by really young pretentious Sci fi nerds or really, really old and possibly sexually frustrated 50 year olds who do nothing but dictate rpg politics and get fat eating cheese curls with cheese wiz behind the pc screen and I really hope Anet considers on trying to make Hard Mode adjustable for anyone to create an out-of-the-box build.

It's just like going to FOW and/or UW and sayng ...so what!? Not to get way off topic, but FOW and UW can become incredibly boring for me when I choose a typical core class (excluding the Mesmer) just to repeat the same darn thing over and over. It's really boring to just take a warrior (unless maybe she's a w/rt), monk, necro (either SS or BIP build), and of course your typical overused nuker. Sure they seem to get the job done (expectedly, yet not all the time), but I've enjoyed using classes such as the Assassin, the ritualist, paragon, Dervish and even the Mesmer not because I know I'd do a good job, but it would bring something different and interesting.

When Elistism comes around to Hard mode, that means unless you are not some stupid boring core (warrior, necro, monk, ranger and not including the meser) build you'll just get discriminated regardless of how good you are. Atleast maybe 70%/100%. To avoid such issues I use heros and henchman all the time (if they are available, which makes Domain of Anguish, Urgoz and The Deep incredibly stupid since you have to get into some nerd's rpg politics to get into a team.).

Elitism belongs to the world of PVP, specifically the international section where it's mostly of Anti-Americans claiming we are soooo bad, blaming us for things that had nothing to do with us (I know sad right?) while they are the ones creating the segregation and taking the fun out. Still, elitism shouldn't be anywhere and I know that last comment about regarding international folks was quite harsh, but from my experiences it's mostly players I meet off the int districts that tend to manifest the idiotic elitism.

I know we just want to get through a lot of the missions, but elitism doesn't work all the time, and usually not most of the time. I don't mind a challenging Hard mode, yet something still fair for everyone. Yet let's face it, you can't rock everyone's boat.

i recon you'll need the protector title to "enter" hard mode anyway.

Unless I missed your sarcasm completely...you're joking, right? It's horrible that Dunk/Talk/Mhen heal minions. If you don't understand why, look at [skill=text]Blood of the Master[/skill] really, really carefully.

It's not enough to warrant bringing Human Monks, but that's not the point.

It's needed because PvE content has been stale since November 06 (i.e. 5 months).

i hate it when the npc monks heal only the minions. i play an attack warrior, (meaning i dont have many defencive skills endure pain is about it) its only disadvantage is that i have to rely on monks entirely for my healing. when all they are doing is healing the minions, i end up dieing and only getting rezed. my tank is tough, but not with dp. a good human monk is a tanks best friend lol.

IMO Monk heros are better than real playing monks. Atleast when I set my monk heros to avoid combat, they do just that. Most monks think they should tank and when they say they know they shouldn't, they still do.

Let's forget that most monk players now have been acting like they got the right to act like some elistist to compensate and hide that they are bad monk players. Atleast monk heroes and npc don't get arrogant with you.

@phantom flux - So ok i thought nightfall was generally easy. I ran through 3 characters through it in about 2-3 weeks. 2 of them getting/getting close to Elonian GMC. I started a 4th and it just got boring. Its not that i couldnt do it. It was just too easy, but too time consuming for me to sit through that 4th character. Personally, I love PvE. (I like beating things that dont yell back at me ;-) ). And I'm looking forward to Hard mode. I feel it will give me a reason to go back through each campaign. Harder enemies means I'm more on my toes, and I dont sit back and just cruise through.

That brings up the question, Well what is Hard? Hard is a game mode that is supposed to be difficult. Its a game mode thats supposed to bring out the full potential of the player while not being impossible to beat.

On that note, I'll say right now that the Realm of Torment and the Domain of Anguish fullfill their titles of Elite Areas. IMHO, I think Hard mode should be similar to the DoA. Obviously, not quite as hard as those are Elite missions. I don't expect to spend 5 hours on a Hard Mode mission. If they are on the level of Gloom. Then hard mode should be a great and fun challenge.

Now thats thats out of the way. Elitism. Elitism will always exists. Also, the general consensus is that Elitism is bad. However, elitism is necessary. Sure there are a few jerks out there with overly large E-peens who feel the constant need to stroke them, whether they are actually good or not. Don't let that turn you off though. DoA for example. DoA is hard. Its an Elite area for a reason. Its not made so you can pansy your way through it and still win. As well, DoA is not for everyone. Again its an ELITE area. If you just got your first character through NF for the first time, I highly suggest that you avoid DoA for the time being. Go play make another character. Get involved in some PvP. Even if it just maybe RA or TA. Really get to know the basic game mechanics and skills of your characters class. Then I'd suggest go to the UW or FoW. Groups are WAY laid back there. Once you feel comfortable with that, then try to venture your way into DoA. But anywhoo this isn't a DoA thread. What i really wanted to point out was that in DoA, Elitism exists to save people time. People who have already conquered Mallyx and are just farming gemstones or are doing it for the challenge, generally don't want to have to spend more time there than they have to. As well, if you join a group and say that you've done it before and then you do a common mistake. You may get scolded. Because even the simplest mistake can cost a team the mission there. And if your an hour into foundry and someone makes a newb mistake. Congrats you just wasted everyones time. Now sure everyone makes mistakes. But the mistakes that cause party wipes are often the same ones that people are repeatedly told over and over to not do. And when this happens one or two people will general rage at the mistakee and bail out if they party is not already wiped. Because the time isn't worth it, in an area where the quests can take between 1-5 hours if you do just one.

Now many of yall will look above and call those people who rage Elitists. Sure to a degree yes. But if you lie to a group and say you've done it before and you haven't. Then you screw over the party later on, and try to call them Elitists. Your in the wrong because you lied to them. If you want to get in a good group and learn to play DoA, the best thing to do is to be upfront with group. Tell that you haven't done it before, but that your willing to listen and learn. If they are good players they will take you and teach you. If they are over Elitist, they may boot you or someone may leave. But don't worry. That happens. There are always over-confident people.

But I'll say it again, PLEASE don't join a group and lie saying that you've done it before. Because if you screw up, and you were in my group I would have raged at you. Not becuase I'm Elitist but because i expected you to have some common sense about what to do. I've had several groups that have claimed to have completed it before, only to have then take twice as long as need because they insisted on doing something the wrong way, costing me time.
(Note: I'm not claiming I'm god at DoA. However, I think I have enough experience to help direct the group and make decisions.)

I went off on a tangent again. But i think you should read it anyway before you call everyone in DoA a bunch of Elitists.

Finally, how does this relate to Hard Mode and Elitism? I'll try to make this short. If Hard Mode is actually "Hard", then yes Elitism will exist and yes its is necessary. Obviously it won't be based on experience in the physical missions, as noone will have played them first time around. But it will be based on player awareness and skill. Skillbar Pings and I will become good friends during Hard Mode most likely. If i accept a warrior and see any healing skills except a rez, don't complain when i boot your ass. All I'll be expecting from people during Hard Mode is just common sense and knowledge of game mechanics. Now thats not alot is it? Sure people will have varying opinions of what to expect. But thats all I will expect from people. Lets just wait and see what Hard Mode brings. Then yall can comment.

LOL, very nice but I think you missed what I meant. I found UW and FOW easy yet boring. I just meant when I see elistism, elistism usually = class prejudice and I think that's incredibly pretentious. I love how I can take an assassin into a group (which isn't always easy), do amazing in fow and get complimented with things such as, "I'll never underestimates sins again." Things such as that.

DOA, is a place where you have to form a team and can't even hench it yourself. So that just becomes a waste of time because elitists = class discrimination = pretentious and = takes the fun out of it. And the most times I actually give in to bringing in a demanded class build (which I hate) and after 10 to 20 minutes of forming a team that is so called in their eyes, "elite," which ends up me in laughing cause the entire team got wiped in a matter of seconds, usually with the team leader going out first.

I think that's what most of the anti-elitists talk about. I can understand if someone just sucks, but if they don't suck and can actually take on a hard mission with a class other players have trouble working at themselves.

P.S. Your avatar put a smile on my face.

Good thing its not called Guildwars or anything, then you would be forsed to play with other people to beat hard missions and stuff 3 words, Join A Guild..............lol solowars would prolly have been a dud.

Firstly, too many people on these forums throw around the word elitism way too freely and give it a bad connotation and that's becomming very annoying. A LOT of the people who play can fall under this category of "elitists" and that's just silly. Secondly, with the discussion of hard mode a lot of the view points expressed herein are very narrow minded.

Hard mode has the possibility to enhance the game in several ways. Obviously the replay value for sections of the game will go up dramatically I estimate. I personally have always wanted to find high level monsters in areas near the start of the chapters. It's nice that I have more incentive to go back to the novice areas of the game. Additionally, playing hardmode will reward players with titles and loot. Is that a bad thing? Maybe one of the more important aspects of this mode is the possibility that it can make players better. This game caters too much to my liking to those who rarely play it by making the game so easy to complete. So now those who don't have a lot of time to play the game have their mode and those of of us who want more of a challenge have ours. Everyone's happy.

And to jump back to the elitism thing. Nobody want's to risk their time and effort playing with inexperienced people, even novices really don't want to play with other novices. They either want someone to do everything for them or they actually want to learn from a more seasoned individual. If you don't like this style of gameplay then you shouldn't play any game that requires teamwork. When people have to depend on others to get something accomplished they are always going to want someone who is more likely to get the job done.

And at the end of the day if you don't like hard mode then just don't play it. You don't need hard mode to enjoy the game. It's there for those of us who want more of a challenge.

Phantom Flux, i didnt intend all of that to be directed towards you. The first paragraph was really all i wanted to comment on your post. But i do understand where your coming from. (Hehe Gwen-chan is awesome - But I'm thinking of changing it to Yachiru from Bleach whose just as awesome)

But like what Tarus said, Hard Mode will give GW alot more PvE replayability, something that it has always lacked. But since we don't really know all that much, I'd suggest that everyone reserve their opinions untill it comes out and not make a bunch of hype about potential Elitism, that may or may not become omnipresent in Hard Mode.

But hey 'tis just my two cents.

You make some good points here. But these lines... well. That's the only thing I worry about (as a casual gamer interested in hard mode) - I hope it's either a toggle, or reversible by any other means and not something like:
Okay, you switch on hardmode, but you can't switch it off. I don't expect it to be irreversible, but... that's the only fear I have. Because I want to try it, but I don't want to have to stick with it if I don't like it.

If I remember correctly, the original Dev Update thread said that it was taking so long because they had to tweak and balance some tihngs, like so you get Hard Mode Masters on V Square if your human team got paired with a henchie team. These kind of talking leads to be beleive it'll be perfectly henchable if your smart.

Heros basically made Normal Mode into Easy Mode, even if you were running crappy builds. 2MM 2SF (and similar builds) might as well have been an auto-win button. So Hard Mode will likely just be turned into Normal Mode, where its heroable, but only if you run semi-decent builds.

Well, I think Vizunah Square is a bit special on that matter, as for a full human team you need 16 players technically, and you cannot control the other half. So what can you do? It's fairly random. Maybe the other group is good, maybe it's crap. One case you win, other you lose.
But what if there isn't any human group on the other side? Insta-lose and try again? Until what? Calls for frustration.

I don't know if this is really a sign for henchable or heroable missions altogether, although my guess is that they will be possible for groups with some henches (maybe one or two...) anyhow. But Vizunah Square and the Unwaking Waters are very specific in that matter, because of the two group thing.

it makes no sense to me.
wouldnt reducin the size of your party translate into hard mode?
too easy with 8 ppl? do it with 4? too easy for 4 ? do it with 2 etc etc....
a waste fo anet's time which will be better off dedicated fixin serious problems with the game (like the trade spam problem which prevents ppl from communicatin ).

Well, I like the idea of being able to replay the "lower level" tyria regions in an appropriate difficulty. And it's not about the "with how few people do I have to play to make it challenging".

Invite into team, or guest-invite into guild. Close local and trade chat. Done.
Alternatively you can whisper, if there are only two people talking.
Or: Agree to meet in another outpost or district.

And before someone tells me: Those are workarounds, not solutions.
As is kicking my fellow guildmates (in my case that's people I know from real life and we have played numerous characters together through the three campaigns) to be able to make stuff "challenging".
And I think it's still easier to make "hard mode" than to make a chat or spam filter that does not ban players that just had a lag and thus accidentally posted something twice.
If you really want to do something about excessive spamming, report it. If you want to get people to use the trade channel, then get a large portion of people not to react on local chat trade offers, but only on trade channel.

Because it's a social game.

And think about it, if the party size is reduced, you're going to exclude more people. Hell, think back to the early days of just Prophecies when the holy trinity (warrior, Elementalist, monk) were the only characters readily accepted into a party. (Mesmer who...?)

Necro's got included somewhere in there once people started realizing their potential, but Mesmers and Rangers were kicked to the curb.

Then comes Factions. "Kick the Assassin or I leave!" was the phrase of the day. Ritualists were a red-headed stepchild until Rit Lord or the healing Rits were developed.

Nightfall. The community was hesitant to start including Dervishes and Paragons, until their true capability was realized. Then the Paragons got beat down to Ranger-hood. To its credit, the Dervish is starting to replace the Warrior in more progressive PUGs.

So where does that leave us? I still see groups demanding two monks (despite the fact they aren't needed, unless one plans to be reckless), and usually a tank, MM and SF Nuker. Once they have those 5 players THEN you might see others included, although usually its another MM, SF, SS, Spirit Spammer, Barrager, or battery (most useless ever! /rant)

So where does that leave the classes? As it stands now, Mesmers are first to go. Ranger has to be a Barrager (or to a lesser degree, Trapper) or else its generally not priority. Paragon... Assassin...

Now think about this priority in classes, and how picky the PUG community would get if we suddenly made the "hard mode" to be smaller parties. We'd be back to the holy trinity in no time.

Those are special missions, but the way they said it I am just taking a guess that content will on the whole be heroable (if not henchable).

sorry I didnt notice. all i see on my screen is wts this wtb that.

@Former Ruling You're probably right. I hope it's designed for 4-6 human player parties. We usually lack human-controlled monks for some teams.

Turn off local chat. Turn off trade chat. Those messages that suddenly don't disappear from the screen within a quarter of a second are your guildies (green), whispers (also greenish), your alliance people (orange) or your team (blue). Say "Hi!" to them now.
I always only turn on local chat out of curiosity. Honestly.

And I did see a group in Nahpui once that WANTED an assassin. I think they said something about "bad one" and "exploit corpse"... hmm... they found one, though.
...
Is it a bad sign if a class is only taken because they're of use dead?