something to ponder regarding Mesmers and Necros and the LB title

Hi Folks,

The lightbringer title gives a damage bonus of 5% vs abaddon's minions per rank. This bonus doesn't seem to translate to hexes like spiteful spirit, insidious parasite, empathy, backfire, and so on. Or Life stealing skills like shadow strike, or vampiric gaze. It does give a bonus to flare and other direct damage elementalist spells.
Considering that a good portion (almost half) of mesmer and necro skills are hexes, they don't really receive the full benefit of this title, as do the physical characters (wars/rangers/etc) and the direct spell casters like the elementalist. I for one would appreciate it if this kind of thing were to occupy the thoughts of the dev team while they are currently reviewing the usefulness of mesmers in PvE.

Thanks for your time.

I love how you left out Monks, who don't get any benefit whatsoever (Smiting doesn't count.)

Anyways, as a Necro who played as SS through all of RoT and its Master quests...it's fine. SS is overpowered enough when played well.

If this is a veiled "Buff Mesmers in PvE" post, this isn't the complaint to use. People would just be more inclined to take an SS instead of a Mesmer if the buff were in effect (heh).

i havent gotten my meser that far in nf, but i feel that the 5% bonus isnt that important or beneficial. so just go ahead and spam wastrels worry on abbadon and dont worry about it.

...

What he forgets to point out is that having the LB title doesn't give mean you do more damage, you also take less damage.

Meaning everyone benefits from it.

Not in a degen-only area

Smiting counts, and its benefited. Also, the passive effect of less damage taken works for monks, too.

Honestly, I shouldn't have needed to reply.

Taking less damage is only half benefit then.I would like to point out that damage mods on staffs should effect spells as well,its not fair to casters that only melee get damage boost.Usual shot by a staff is worthless,damage boost there isnt doing caster any good.Make it effect spells pls Anet just as lighbringer should!

It's 5% per level. Someone with level 2 of the LB title gets a 10% bonus, 3 a 15% bonus, etc. And it's not that hard to get to level 2 or 3 by the time you get to the RoT Missions. Considering that you can get to LB 2 with about 30 - 40 minutes of farming (oooh! I said the "F" word!) in the Mirror of Lyss, having that extra 10% and LB Gaze can really make a difference in the Grand Court mission.

Everyone benefits from the reduced damage, but some classes benefit more than others from the increased damage. Warriors and eles, for example, benefit from the reduced damage as much as other classes, e.g. monk, but benefit more than monks do with the increased damage. My +35% wand attacks don't compare to +35% damage on Final Thrust or Meteor Shower.

LB Gaze partially reduces this disparity though.

You can still be a monk and use the LB title to boost your heroes.
Also, LB actually boosts smiters most of all, since their damage is armor ignoring.

I think those damage types you are referring to are already very powerfull. Since they are totally armor-ignoring, you will do relatively little damage to low level characters (compared to a Hammer-warrior vs a Devourer lvl 5), but in regards to a lvl 28 high armored Demon, you do A LOT of damage.

This armor ignoring damage also applies to a lot of Rt damage, mainly from spirits and hexes. My spirit spiker Rt can do 100+ dmg per second on 1 single Torment creature. Which is doubled when he enters Call of Torment.

Pain (30 dmg), Bloodsong (26 dmg), Anguish (21 + 21 dmg), Fury (21 dmg), + 4 x 20 dmg from hex which name i cant remember. Torment Creatures dont stand a chance if Anet would give them +30% dmg.

Because technically, it's the hex that's doing the damage, NOT you. The damage bonus only apply to YOU and YOU only. Take note that the bonus DO apply to [skill=text]Shatter Hex[/skill] and [skill=text]Hex Eater Vortex[/skill]

And its sucks! >_>

And life stealing != damage

So the bonus damage would only apply to damage done by your fists? A Meteor Shower is conjured, a Savage Shot is fired...none of these damages are done by you, but by the devices you use. Why exclude hexes for these reasons then?

I play necro and its even worse than he suggests:

Lightbringer is supposed to increase damage, and necromancer is suppsoed to be a damage dealing class.

What's not affected:

Dammage from Hex triggers (spiteful spirit gets no benefit)

Damage from Offensive boost (Lightbringer does not affect orders)

Damage from lifesteal (lightbringer does not help vampiriic gaze)

Damage from Loss of Life (lightbringer does not affect Spoil victor)

Damage from an skill that says "XX takes Damage" or "XX take shadow damage" (Lightbringer does not affect signet of sorrow)

Damage from Minions

Damage from Degen or conditions

What is affected:

Targeted elemental non armor ignoring damage, which for a Necromancer is mostly garbage skills like Deathly chill.

Elementalist and ritualist Damage skills (maybe necromancer ought to depened heavily on their secondaries to get full benefit of the title)

A non-functional lightbringer title is on reason why Mesmers cant get a party in DoA, and why necromancers cant get into a party either for the most part, except as 1 HP Bip. As lightbringer title gets higher, the class becomes obsolete. Plus, with hard mode coming, and the chance for very real class discrimination coming with it... there's a good chance that the necromancer falls far behind in the arms race and isnt seen as nearly as useful. While a Necromancer has been a staple character for a year now, thats based on a tiny few skills which are all unfairly ignored by lightbringer title...

and sure, all classes get reduced damage from lightbriger, but a necro or mesmer is prettty squishy regardless... and if necromancer has to play as 1 hp BiP, because his lightbringer title doesnt work, then the necromancer doesnt benefit at all from the title.

Remember that the Lightbringer ranks also decrease damage received from servants of Abaddon by 1 per rank...which is a very nice boon to the characters with weaker armor like the Mesmer and Necromancer.

The title shouldn't be improved, it should be removed.

Giving PvE blanket bonuses to tweak the balance of PvE is a step on the spiral stair of power creep, and highlights imbalances in classes.

I really dont need LB damage for my SS necro, since Olias' fiends already do tons of damage with MOP and/or barbs. I use awaken the blood of course.

thats because most necro and mesmer skills dont do direct damage, hex's do damage after they have ben atached to the enemy and thus arnt coming directly from you, while fireball and meteor storm do direct damage

As a long time SS necro player I have to say I could personally care less about any damage bonus to the skill. I mean with the proper staff and ATB active along with the huge buff SS got in the form of Reckless Haste in Factions it's really a non issue. When you get right down to it SS is still the highest damage skill in the game even after the AI update. If you have the HCT and HSR mods then you should be able to spread SS around effectively enough that the enemies will last for maybe 30 seconds tops. The damage bonus, if applied, would maybe drop that to 25 seconds. 5 seconds doesn't matter in PvE.

It's really funny how Imbalanced PvE is in some respect. My biggest deal isn't necessarily how skills or classes are affected, because it doesn't seem much though was placed into alot of them already. Now I do not have a problem grinding for a highly respected title, my biggest problem is that the grinding for that title is just like farming trolls with no variety of effective methods to gain these points. It's just zone kill, zone kill, zone kill...

SS doesnt kill fast enough to stop torment creatures from duplicating. And SS scatters melee (which means you cant be in a balanced group using a tank), and SS can be removed. And SS is elite.

Plus your SS will do the same damage with a max lightbringer title as it did with zero lightbringer title, while every barrager, warrior, elementalist, channeller or other character will get a 50% bonus to his or her damage.

If you cannot get SS to kill the Torment creatures before they duplicate then you need to put reckless haste into your bar. I run reckless haste with SS in Torment and I have no problem taking them out before duplication. In fact it's usually the call to Torment skill that triggers the last little bit of damage needed to take them out. If you are running AtB with reckless haste and SS along with a good +1 curses staff then you'll get at least a few level 19 curses casts out of your spread and a lot of level 18 casts.

SS can be removed but I have yet to see a Torment creature with hex removal or effective hex removal if they do have it. The object of an SS build is to lay it down on as many targets as possible. Torment mobs maybe have one or two monks tops? The monk cannot keep up if you do your job properly. I have yet to see a problem with the scatter effect because the enemy AI is so clueless that they scatter for all of three seconds before trying to swarm you again and kill themselves. Proper party construction is the key to SS success. I thought this was understood throughout the game? With a few notable build exceptions you are only as good as your party in the high end areas. If you can't be bothered to build an effective party with synergistic skills then yeah don't be suprised if you're less than effective with the mobs in an area.

And who cares about the 50% damage bonus versus my 0% damage bonus? For example let us say we run across a 6 creature mob, not too bad, a farily manageable size. I echo SS with ATB active. I can put SS on all 6 pretty quick. Ok that's 41 damage everytime they attack or activate a skill not only to them but to the others around them. That's maybe 3 adjacent enemies possible if they are focused on a tank. Now I hit the center with reckless haste and they attack 25% faster I believe. I'm not sure what that equates to in attacks per second but let's say it gives 2 attacks every 4 seconds. Ok so now we have every enemy in the cluster taking 164 damage per attack, assuming they attack simultaneously but give me a break on that assumption because this math sucks enough as it is, With 2 attacks per 4 seconds that's 328 damage in that 4 seconds period or 82 damage per second armor ignoring and unable to be mitigated by any elemental resistance whatsoever. These values could be higher or lower depending on how many adjacent foes you can squeeze into the area. The more foes you get in a nice tight cluster the better the damage and let's face it the enemy AI is not smart enough to space out. SS is still plenty effective. I'm really not sure what the whining is about.

the lightbringer bonus does work with dust trap (armor ignoring dmg), at lvl 4 lb, its doing 31 dmg instead of the usual 26.

One thing to note about the professions that apparently don't get any attack damage bonus from Lightbringer... When Mesmers, Necromancers and Monks do go on the offensive the vast majority of the damage their skills can dish out is armor ignoring (indirect, shadow, holy, degen). That is an incredible advantage, seeing as every other profession has to consider that the damage they do is inevitably going to be reduced by enemy armor. Other professions need the damage boost at higher levels to stay in the game, while the armor-ignorers don't.

Most smiting spells worth using deal Holy damage do they not? Thus are not effected by LB title right?

Dust Trap isn't armor ignoring because its armor ignoring (in the way Holy dmg is for example), its armor ignoring because the skill has always been broke.

Thus it doesnt have to follow the same rules as all other skills.

This is just plain wrong. ALL Shadow damage spells are boosted by the Lightbringer title. Just focus on dealing direct damage, not hexes or minions, and you'll get the damage bonus.

Feast of Corruption - AOE Shadow damage boosted, Lifesteal unaffected.

Desecrate/Defile - AOE Shadow damage boosted

Shadow Strike - Shadow damage boosted, Lifesteal unaffected.

I also didn't include ritualists, assassins, dervishes and paragons. The reason being I didn't wish to write a tomb. I just wanted the devs to consider how hexes might be effected by LB title.

But you bring up a valid point about monks, so I might suggest that the 5% bonus per rank (remember folks - 5% adds up over time) give a bonus to healing. It would help to counter that domain where healing effectiveness is reduced, or that other one where energy is sucked up faster.

All well and good. I made it through with my necro too. Using SS, minions, blood magic, etc. That doesn't change the fact that my warrior buddy cuts through margonites like butter (he has LB 7 or 8), and I'm still making moderate scratches.

SS is an elite skill, it's supposed to be powerful. So is Cleave, but it gets the full benefit of the LB title. ANd if SS was so overpowered, I'm surprised it hasn't been nerfed yet, so I'm sure the devs think that elite skill is fine for now. Though i used SS as an example, my focus is on hexes in general, so rather than nit pick, let's try to address the idea as a whole.

Nothing veiled. I just figured since they were already examining Mesmers in PvE, that they might add a thought or two to this.

Footnote:
I'd also note that the LB elite skill is far more advantagous to tanks than casters(monks are included as casters, feel better? =) ). Casters are rarely close enough to a torment creature for the skill to be used (it says within range, but that range is ADJACENT). Casters have such low armor that to stand next to a torment who can smack you down in 2 or three hits is just foolish. the skill is pretty much useless from the "back line" where casters tend to hang out.

I think another important thing to remember about mesmers and necros too is their function in the game. SS is an extraordinary skill in the curses line in that it can be a potent source of damage but by and large hexes are meant to support the party not be the prime damage dealers. To that end I think that the damage bonus would be nice but honestly if you're an SS necro and are the prime source of damage in your party you should probably examine your party build a little more closely. Even in the Deep, where SS is used heavily, the nukers and warriors do most of the damage with SS just giving that extra kick and damaging targets that your primary damage dealers may not be able to target. I think that if you look at it like that, with hexes as support damage as opposed to a main source then the lightbringer title really isn't such a big deal.

Actually, this benefits warriors and other high armor classes more than casters again.

caster takes 50dmg from attack, redcued by 5 for L5 LB
Tank takes 30dmg from attack, reduced by 5 for L5 LB

on a 500 hp character, the caster normally goes down in 10 hits w/o LB and 11 with LB. The warrior normally goes down in 17 hits, but now lasts for 20 with LB. For those of you keeping score that's a 1 hit benefit vs a 3 hit benefit. So, again, warriors and other high armor classes benefit more.

Caster's damage is reduced by 10%, while the Tank's damage is reduced by 17%. So the tank is standing up even longer than before.

In Realm of torment you face things like longer skill activation, less healing, higher energy costs (no higher adrenalin costs). Under these conditions, the guys who can do relatively high unskilled damage, have higher armor, and use adrenalin instead of energy are destined to be the most successful. Realm of Torment is the place where the Warrior is King and the LB title further serves to separate the divide between tanks and casters in this playing field. So say what you will, after seeing the discussion so far, i feel even more strongly that casters - especially those who use hexes and heals (that's for you, Zinger) - get the short end of the Lightbringer stick in the realm of Torment.

Oh yes, because 5 damage reduction (assuming Vanquishing Lightbringer) really does alot when stuff hits you for 150. Instead of 150 damage you took 145 - guess what you are still dead
/sarcasm

Lightbringer title is only useful for elementals and rits who pretend to be elementalists. Or maybe even a warrior in some areas where he actually deals damage instead of sit there with obsidian flesh on being useless. Other than that Lightbringer titles are...worthless

Yup, got me there... except

Empathy, Backfire, mind wrank, panic, fragility, frustration, barbs, soul barbs, insidious parasite, mark of pain, price of failure, mark of subversion, rising bile...

Sounds like an awfully full set of damage dealing hexes to me. more than enough to fill anyone's skill bar. THough SS is the most commonly used damage dealing hex, it is in no way the only one. The only reason I mentioned it in the OP is because it is commonly used. My guess is that if I mentioned theses skills and ommitted mention of SS (seemingly a SS = Sore SPot for some players) in the OP, this thread might be taking a different tone.

so no, hexes aren't REALLY meant to cause damage. they should just be used to slowly degen a monster with 2000 hp (half an hour later). That's definately the best way to take out torments that duplicate when they reach low health. And I guess anyone who uses those skills to take out the NF version of Shiro is just being plain silly. I'll go and reskill my necro and mesmer right now. Let's see, Rigor Mortis, that will really make the warrior feel more important - bonus damage from LB AND he never misses. And Malaise, ought to slow down some casting... I'll be dead much faster but at least the bad guy MIGHT cast one less spell. What was I thinking, these ideas are great! - should I point out that these skills ALSO receive no benefit from the LB title.

My point is that the LB title bonus is supposed to be for all professions, but that a select few are unable to reap its full benefits.

How 'bout we just leave it at that? Yes, it would be nice to have the damage bonus work on hexes too. See? Wasn't that easy?

They key word there though is hexes and heals which are by definition support type spells and not prime damage dealing spells. Hexes and heals aren't hurt by the lack of LB support simply because there is no real need for them to have LB support. Those skills you named above have damage but they also have other effects, for the most part, some don't I admit but several do and for those several it's the other effect you want to utilize over the damage. If it is really that big of an issue you could always run degen instead of direct damage thereby negating the need for you to have an LB damage bonus. It's not an ideal solution and I'm not trying to aggravate you but I don't see this as an issue to the degree that there will be mass prejudice against support type casters just because they don't net the damage bonus. Granted it would be nice. I admit that. I'd like to see it too but I don't feel as if I've been gimped by not having it.

You are missing the point. The reason NOT to run a degen build is BECASE it doesn't receive a bonus from LB. It does the same damge with LB or without. Why would I ever chooose to do LESS damage to my enemy? Degen is amazingly powerful at the beginning of the game, because creatures have low health to begin with. A short burst of Phantasm will knock out half a river skales health easily... it only puts a dent in an L28 torment creature. These guys have upwards of 1000hp.

As it is, Mesmer have a minimal opportunity to make any use of the LB title (pretty much only interupt skills that cause immediate damage), and Necros are relegated to death magic (for its spells that deal direct cold damage).

Does anyone out there know if Sliver shield causes increased damage with the LB title active? I haven't tested it myself, but I have heard it does. If so, why does this enchantment (that deals indirect damage, much like mark of pain or empathy would) get the LB bonus, but hexes that function similarly do not?

An enemy is making my health go down, therefore they are dealing damage to me.

You seem to keep applying my suggestions to a solo type environment. If you can solo Torment with a caster that isn't a gimic build I tip my hat to you but my point is you are not supposed to be the prime damage dealer so if you are running a degen build then you will benefit your party more in the DoT than if you try to run direct caster with your "gimped" curses. LB is not necessary for support casters. It does not gimp them in any way shape or form nor does it make them less desirable that's my point. It's not hard to drop max degen on targets with the right gear, runes and skills. I run, though hardly ever play because there isn't much use for mesmers in PvE, a degen mesmer that can put -10 degen on five enemies in about 15 seconds and that degen will persist for upwards of 20 seconds with proper maintenance and support skills. That's not useless to a party in Torment. that makes your prime damager's jobs that much easier. what you seem to want is some uber hex build that can act as a prime damage dealer and that just doesn't happen, SS pre nerf was the closest we got, if you think hexes are supposed to be prime damage dealers then you miss the point of hexes entirely and there is no point in even continuing this discussion with you.

I think its fine. Theres no purpose in increasing the damage of armor ignoring hexes, etc. Why? because they ARE armor ignoring. The LB +dmg mod is really there to help the party members that are stuck worrying about lvl 28 AL.

How about that elite LB signet? There's something worthless...

You are not relegated to Death. See my above post. All direct damage Shadow damage spells are boosted by the LB title. Pretty much all direct damage spells are boosted, and the ones in Curses and Blood are MUCH better than the ones in Death.

Hexes, degen and life steals are not boosted, however.

Why Not? The title is available for all. All are encouraged to get it (as far as story line is concerned). Everyone get's an equal benefit from the SS Rebirth signet based on its level? Why then should not everyone receive equal benefit from the LB title?

My point is - Firestorm casues increased damage to those who stand in it... it's not direct damage (like flare, or bitter chill, or an axe) but it still get's the benefit from LB title. Why doesn't empathy, or backfire or mark of pain receive the same benefit that firestorm/savannah heat do. All are skills that do damage over time given a specific condition (ppl standing in one spot for firestorm/SH, casting a spell for backfire). I can see no good reason why Firsestorm/Savannah Heat/Sliver Armor should receive a benefit from LB, while Empathy and Fragility should not.

I think the big mistake is that some people have limited Necros and Mesmers to "support class", which seems to translate to "second class" or "not really necessary, but we'll let one come along if there is room." Necros and mesmers are Casters, not unlike Elementalists. All these classes have defensive spells (reckless haste makes bad guys miss, spirit of failure makes bad guys miss, ele wards reduce damage and/or make bad guys miss). All theses classes have offensive spells - the mes and necro ones have been listed, and i'm sure you all know the ele ones. Key fundamental difference between Necros and Elementalists - Necros recharge energy faster, Elementalists store more energy to begin with. In the end the two both cast offensive and defensive spells. If someone is having issues picturing a necro as as a damage dealer, it's only because they lack imagination.

If the attitude of "Second class, support caster" is maintained, Necros/Rits/Mesmers (there will always be a place for monks) will continue to be treated like Joe's little brother, who's job is to fetch errant fly balls that end up behind the back catcher - makes the little guy feel like he's involved, but we could do just as well without him.