Already posted this in a dervish thread, thought it might have some relevance here. This is a vague list of some of the main strengths and weaknesses of the three main melee classes: Warrior, Assassin, and Dervish, and the comparisons between them.
Warriors: The super tanks of GW, 80 base armor with +20 physical added on that, as well as shield and many defense stances make them capable of taking loads of damage. Skills such as Triple Chop and Hundred Blades add to that effect by doing AoE damage to adjacent foes gathered up on the tank. However, warriors can have surprisingly low damage output compared with the other classes. They can add conditions to damage, but the overall DPS is normally slower than Dervishes or Assassins.
Summary: Big. Slow. Tank. Massive amounts of armor/dmg reduction, not as much offense, although still formidable.
Assassin: The speed demons of GW. With only 70 armor and melee range offenses, they have been known to go down fast in Canthan missions with afflicted. However, they really shine out in NF and Proph as some of the quickest killers without having to worry about mobs of exploding baddies. They either spike their way around the enemies or moebius tank against single enemies with added AoE from death blossom. Many assassin builds also pile on harmful conditions to quickly bring down foes.
Summary: Low Armored. Fast. Deadly. Not as much armor and protection as other melee classes, but much faster, more DPS, and more conditions.
Dervish: The newest mix of Offense and Defense in GW. By using loads of enchantments and energy from Mysticism, this class can easily load up on enchantments to counter their 70 armor, unlike assassins capability. They also have the massive damage capability of the scythe with 9-41 damage and abilities to hit 3 enemies at once. Attack skills are a bit more limited here to make way for spells and support, and the attack speed is slower than the others, but the pure power makes them very strong against several enemies.
Summary: Spell Based. Mixed offensively and defensive. Slower, but Stronger. Dervishes are a new take on melee, and seem to be very balanced between the far ends of the defensive tanks and the quick killers of previous games.
Just a reference page I suppose, but thought it could be of use here instead of just one professions forum.
Melee Comparison: Warriors vs. Assassins vs. Dervishs.
Samurai-JM
clawofcrimson
Warriors
spiking:-------
pressure:-------
Assasin
spiking:----------
pressure:---
Dervish
spiking:---
pressure:---------
spiking:-------
pressure:-------
Assasin
spiking:----------
pressure:---
Dervish
spiking:---
pressure:---------
ZenRgy
What are you talking about?
Warriors have little to no offense, why do you think we have great elites like Defy pain!
Warriors have little to no offense, why do you think we have great elites like Defy pain!
Selket
how warrior be offensive, we have dolyak signet, no need for move only need for take hit!
fb2000
some warrior builds can quite _easily_ outdamage assassins, im quite sure of it.. also have a nice spiking potential last i saw/used ;P
havent seen many dervishes in action to make a judgement on that tho.
havent seen many dervishes in action to make a judgement on that tho.
Stormlord Alex
Huh?
Warriors are the most versatile of the three - they can pressure extremely well, spike well, apply deepwound easily, and they offer a lot in the way of disruption (hammer KD chains, shock, bull's strike etc.) Their ability to buildup adrenaline and then switch targets completely make them a very unpredictable class in PvP. Combined with a decent self-heal and tough armour, they can go without back up fairly well and can overextend better than other classes. Additionally, some of their skills and elites are totally kickass - YAA!, Eviscerate, Dragon Slash (PvE wise fo sho'). They've also got a decent salvo of defensive skills for PvE, and for /W to draw on should the need arise.
Assassins are all about one thing - the spike. They do it well, for a few seconds every now and then they have insane DPS. Though they suffer from traditional melee counters as a warrior or derv does, it's magnified in the 'sins case - one RoF, a Blinding Flash or blocking stance, and you're left pitifully auto-attacking for the next 20 seconds or whatever. Also, some chains relying on hexes to trigger (the ever-popular SP/BoA, I'm looking at you) give away the spike, making the 'sin RoF fodder for any monk worth his salt. Their ability to spike and take down unwary foes makes them a good class for random formats, and shadowsteps are useful too. Their pressure is terrible though, as is their self-healing and survival capacity (yes, I know about Flashing Blades, Critical Defences etc. but it's still paltry compared to the warrior and derv for the most part).
The dervish is the opposite end of the spectrum to the assassin - it can pump out pressure very well, with sub-par spiking abilities. With the highest base damage weapon in the game (plenty of criticals against fleeing foes make for some big numbers), some sweet run buffs, and ability to lay down Cripple, Deepwound and enchant removals make it a fairly versatile class (though lacking in the disruptive and spiking powers of the warrior). Though reliant on energy, Mysticism's returns allow the dervish to keep pulling off attacks and skills throughout the fight. Some powerful defensive and self-healing skills allow them to overextend fairly well, as well as giving them the 'tank' option in PvE.
Overall, IMO, the classes scale up like this:
Spike = Assassin > Warrior > Dervish
Pressure = Dervish = or > Warrior (depending on build) > Assassin
Overall usefulness = Warrior > Dervish = Assassin - depending on the tactics and makeup of the team.
Yeah.
Warriors are the most versatile of the three - they can pressure extremely well, spike well, apply deepwound easily, and they offer a lot in the way of disruption (hammer KD chains, shock, bull's strike etc.) Their ability to buildup adrenaline and then switch targets completely make them a very unpredictable class in PvP. Combined with a decent self-heal and tough armour, they can go without back up fairly well and can overextend better than other classes. Additionally, some of their skills and elites are totally kickass - YAA!, Eviscerate, Dragon Slash (PvE wise fo sho'). They've also got a decent salvo of defensive skills for PvE, and for /W to draw on should the need arise.
Assassins are all about one thing - the spike. They do it well, for a few seconds every now and then they have insane DPS. Though they suffer from traditional melee counters as a warrior or derv does, it's magnified in the 'sins case - one RoF, a Blinding Flash or blocking stance, and you're left pitifully auto-attacking for the next 20 seconds or whatever. Also, some chains relying on hexes to trigger (the ever-popular SP/BoA, I'm looking at you) give away the spike, making the 'sin RoF fodder for any monk worth his salt. Their ability to spike and take down unwary foes makes them a good class for random formats, and shadowsteps are useful too. Their pressure is terrible though, as is their self-healing and survival capacity (yes, I know about Flashing Blades, Critical Defences etc. but it's still paltry compared to the warrior and derv for the most part).
The dervish is the opposite end of the spectrum to the assassin - it can pump out pressure very well, with sub-par spiking abilities. With the highest base damage weapon in the game (plenty of criticals against fleeing foes make for some big numbers), some sweet run buffs, and ability to lay down Cripple, Deepwound and enchant removals make it a fairly versatile class (though lacking in the disruptive and spiking powers of the warrior). Though reliant on energy, Mysticism's returns allow the dervish to keep pulling off attacks and skills throughout the fight. Some powerful defensive and self-healing skills allow them to overextend fairly well, as well as giving them the 'tank' option in PvE.
Overall, IMO, the classes scale up like this:
Spike = Assassin > Warrior > Dervish
Pressure = Dervish = or > Warrior (depending on build) > Assassin
Overall usefulness = Warrior > Dervish = Assassin - depending on the tactics and makeup of the team.
Yeah.
Samurai-JM
^ Also depends on the build really.
For example(s):
A Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe Warrior could deal some very nice damage in mobs, while a sever/gash/final thrust Warrior would focus more on killing single targets. Warriors do have SOME spiking skills, such as executioners strike, but most are adrenaline powered and take a long time to charge up.
An Assassin can go either way. Most of the time they spike with the SP(or AP, in my case) BoA build to jump in and kill then run away. BUT they also have the Moebius/DB build which is much stronger and faster than the Triple Chop/Cyclone combo. Heres a quick comparison:
(assume all values to be from attribute level 16)
Warrior base Axe damage = 6-28
Triple Chop = 42 damage, AoE, 5 energy, 10 second recharge.
Cyclone Axe = 13 damage, AoE, cost 5 energy, 4 second recharge.
Assassin base Dagger damage = 7-17
Death Blossom = +47 damage, AoE, cost 5 energy, 2 second recharge, hits twice.
Moebius Strike = +37 damage, cost 5 energy, 2 second recharge, allows chain of dual attacks, recharges other attacks.
Now death blossom alone does about 1.5x more than the triple chop/cyclone axe combo, and it is usable more than twice as often. Which seems like better pressure to you?
Dervishes are also good for PvE pressure, as they attack up to 3 enemies at once and have a few AoE attacks, such as Chilling Victory.
For example(s):
A Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe Warrior could deal some very nice damage in mobs, while a sever/gash/final thrust Warrior would focus more on killing single targets. Warriors do have SOME spiking skills, such as executioners strike, but most are adrenaline powered and take a long time to charge up.
An Assassin can go either way. Most of the time they spike with the SP(or AP, in my case) BoA build to jump in and kill then run away. BUT they also have the Moebius/DB build which is much stronger and faster than the Triple Chop/Cyclone combo. Heres a quick comparison:
(assume all values to be from attribute level 16)
Warrior base Axe damage = 6-28
Triple Chop = 42 damage, AoE, 5 energy, 10 second recharge.
Cyclone Axe = 13 damage, AoE, cost 5 energy, 4 second recharge.
Assassin base Dagger damage = 7-17
Death Blossom = +47 damage, AoE, cost 5 energy, 2 second recharge, hits twice.
Moebius Strike = +37 damage, cost 5 energy, 2 second recharge, allows chain of dual attacks, recharges other attacks.
Now death blossom alone does about 1.5x more than the triple chop/cyclone axe combo, and it is usable more than twice as often. Which seems like better pressure to you?
Dervishes are also good for PvE pressure, as they attack up to 3 enemies at once and have a few AoE attacks, such as Chilling Victory.
ss1986v2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai-JM
...about pressure...
agreed that assassin have the ability to apply pressure, but the number show better on paper than in practice. to effectively pressure, you have to have the ability to overextend from time to time. this is where the assassin falls short compared to the derv and warrior. a sin that overextends frequently will become a prime target. wander too far from your healing/protection and you will see a spike coming your way for sure. the derv and warrior have the ability to absorb that initial hit, giving their monks time to react. the assassin lacks this survivability.
where the sin makes up for this is in shadow stepping. but most shadow stepping skills require a target or are random, so it doesnt solve the overextending issue. the only answer is recall, but with the resent change, an enchant removal will send you right back to where you came from before you have a chance to apply any significant pressure.
the chain issue also comes into affect. get hit with melee hate, and you are not only weakened the same as a warrior or derv, but have the potential to wreck your chain. a warrior that misses evis still has the rest of his chain to try and drop. a derv isnt affected any further than the initial miss, being energy driven and less chain oriented. miss with your lead/offhand and that next step in the chain cant see use until that first attack is recharged. redundant skills do help this (running both BLS and BSS), but the chain is still in threat of being disrupted further, along with effectively cutting your dmg in half. on a pressure build it can be devastating as well. if you cant connect with your leader consistently, then you cant make use of the moebius/DB spam. aegis is good example of this. if your lead misses 50% of the time, then you never get to the bulk of your dmg, which is back loaded. again, good use of hexes get around this on a spike (expose ftw!) but requiring a hex on a target in order to apply pressure wont work in the end.
this is all from the pvp perspective though. in pve, things are entirely different. anything and everything can work, and in the hands of the right person, a sin is a beast. with both the ability to spike like mad (assassin promise ftw!) and the ability to pressure (moebius ftw!). the same survivability issues arise, but with much more lax requirements, its not too hard to get things done. still wouldnt advocate standing in the middle of an afflicted clusterfark with the moebius/DB spam, but that doesnt make them useless.
where the sin makes up for this is in shadow stepping. but most shadow stepping skills require a target or are random, so it doesnt solve the overextending issue. the only answer is recall, but with the resent change, an enchant removal will send you right back to where you came from before you have a chance to apply any significant pressure.
the chain issue also comes into affect. get hit with melee hate, and you are not only weakened the same as a warrior or derv, but have the potential to wreck your chain. a warrior that misses evis still has the rest of his chain to try and drop. a derv isnt affected any further than the initial miss, being energy driven and less chain oriented. miss with your lead/offhand and that next step in the chain cant see use until that first attack is recharged. redundant skills do help this (running both BLS and BSS), but the chain is still in threat of being disrupted further, along with effectively cutting your dmg in half. on a pressure build it can be devastating as well. if you cant connect with your leader consistently, then you cant make use of the moebius/DB spam. aegis is good example of this. if your lead misses 50% of the time, then you never get to the bulk of your dmg, which is back loaded. again, good use of hexes get around this on a spike (expose ftw!) but requiring a hex on a target in order to apply pressure wont work in the end.
this is all from the pvp perspective though. in pve, things are entirely different. anything and everything can work, and in the hands of the right person, a sin is a beast. with both the ability to spike like mad (assassin promise ftw!) and the ability to pressure (moebius ftw!). the same survivability issues arise, but with much more lax requirements, its not too hard to get things done. still wouldnt advocate standing in the middle of an afflicted clusterfark with the moebius/DB spam, but that doesnt make them useless.
Teh [prefession]-zorz
Id say that a ranger has the best pressure :P
but between these 3, if you can survive the first 5 seconds of the assassins attack your fine, and the dervish relys a lot of enchantments for boosted atk speed and whatnot so i think the frenzy hammer war takes the cake
but between these 3, if you can survive the first 5 seconds of the assassins attack your fine, and the dervish relys a lot of enchantments for boosted atk speed and whatnot so i think the frenzy hammer war takes the cake
Darth Kukulkan
And FROM WHERE the assassin has less armor than your redneck tarlouze en robe of dervish ?
Sin>Warrior>dervish, which is useless both in elite pve and pvp, just that everyone play them for the novelty : it is fashion to have a Dervish "o yeah look at my robe and my avatar" *bim a dagger between shoulders*
Stop saying sins have a low armor, they have 70, like rangers, like dervish and what ?
+15 with enchant for D, +15 against elemental damage for R okay... but sins do have +15 while attacking, just combine with flashing daggers it has a great survivability
It's like the same wammos since Factions' release love saying that sins have a cardboard armor... i'd say that they have are canned food
Sin>Warrior>dervish, which is useless both in elite pve and pvp, just that everyone play them for the novelty : it is fashion to have a Dervish "o yeah look at my robe and my avatar" *bim a dagger between shoulders*
Stop saying sins have a low armor, they have 70, like rangers, like dervish and what ?
+15 with enchant for D, +15 against elemental damage for R okay... but sins do have +15 while attacking, just combine with flashing daggers it has a great survivability
It's like the same wammos since Factions' release love saying that sins have a cardboard armor... i'd say that they have are canned food
Stormlord Alex
Samurai... In your comparison, you failed to bring up a couple of points -
- Axes have a greater base damage, warriors can output significant pressure without burning a single point of energy. The damage from daggers sucks, they need to spam attack skills to be on par with a warrior. The warrior also gets shiny IAS that increase his base damage by... what? 33% IAS is a... 50% base damage boost.
- Using up your elite slot to be able to pressure as good as a warrior? Yeah.
Also, Triple Chop/Cylone Axe is really only good in PvE, I generally compare classes from a PvP aspect. Also, any kind of melee hate that would kill the 'sins DB/Moebius chain renders his 'pressure' laughable - while this hate affects the warrior too, he can keep auto attacking for NO energy while the 'sin has to restart the chain on someone else, wait out the prots/hexes or expend energy trying to continue DB/Moebius looping.
- The warrior is much tougher. Fact. When upfront pressuring the enemy, a warrior can keep at it while under (even heavy) fire, a 'sin would have to retreat or die.
- If someone gets protted to hell, the warrior can switch targets. The assassin can switch targets too, but expends energy in doing so and has to restart the combo. Yeah.
And adrenaline doesn't take all too long to charge up... it's even faster with FGJ!, Enraging Charge or an IAS.
While the DB/Moebius 'sins does look good on paper, admittedly, it is still not as good as a warrior in practice. Well... it is good in PvE, which is a moot point because you can get through PvE with no skills + heros or - even Mending...
- Axes have a greater base damage, warriors can output significant pressure without burning a single point of energy. The damage from daggers sucks, they need to spam attack skills to be on par with a warrior. The warrior also gets shiny IAS that increase his base damage by... what? 33% IAS is a... 50% base damage boost.
- Using up your elite slot to be able to pressure as good as a warrior? Yeah.
Also, Triple Chop/Cylone Axe is really only good in PvE, I generally compare classes from a PvP aspect. Also, any kind of melee hate that would kill the 'sins DB/Moebius chain renders his 'pressure' laughable - while this hate affects the warrior too, he can keep auto attacking for NO energy while the 'sin has to restart the chain on someone else, wait out the prots/hexes or expend energy trying to continue DB/Moebius looping.
- The warrior is much tougher. Fact. When upfront pressuring the enemy, a warrior can keep at it while under (even heavy) fire, a 'sin would have to retreat or die.
- If someone gets protted to hell, the warrior can switch targets. The assassin can switch targets too, but expends energy in doing so and has to restart the combo. Yeah.
And adrenaline doesn't take all too long to charge up... it's even faster with FGJ!, Enraging Charge or an IAS.
While the DB/Moebius 'sins does look good on paper, admittedly, it is still not as good as a warrior in practice. Well... it is good in PvE, which is a moot point because you can get through PvE with no skills + heros or - even Mending...
Samurai-JM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
Samurai... In your comparison, you failed to bring up a couple of points -
- Axes have a greater base damage, warriors can output significant pressure without burning a single point of energy. The damage from daggers sucks, they need to spam attack skills to be on par with a warrior. The warrior also gets shiny IAS that increase his base damage by... what? 33% IAS is a... 50% base damage boost.
- Using up your elite slot to be able to pressure as good as a warrior? Yeah.
Also, Triple Chop/Cylone Axe is really only good in PvE, I generally compare classes from a PvP aspect. Also, any kind of melee hate that would kill the 'sins DB/Moebius chain renders his 'pressure' laughable - while this hate affects the warrior too, he can keep auto attacking for NO energy while the 'sin has to restart the chain on someone else, wait out the prots/hexes or expend energy trying to continue DB/Moebius looping.
- The warrior is much tougher. Fact. When upfront pressuring the enemy, a warrior can keep at it while under (even heavy) fire, a 'sin would have to retreat or die.
- If someone gets protted to hell, the warrior can switch targets. The assassin can switch targets too, but expends energy in doing so and has to restart the combo. Yeah.
And adrenaline doesn't take all too long to charge up... it's even faster with FGJ!, Enraging Charge or an IAS.
While the DB/Moebius 'sins does look good on paper, admittedly, it is still not as good as a warrior in practice. Well... it is good in PvE, which is a moot point because you can get through PvE with no skills + heros or - even Mending...
^I was talking about PvE though lol. and I'd like to see how you get through the entire game with nothing but mending...
And warriors adrenaline requiring no energy is nice sure, but thats mainly because there are hardly any ways for them to USE any energy effectively. They only have about 20 max energy to start with, and only 2 pips. Assassins have between 30-40 and 4 pips, plus loads of e-management skills that most assassins use, plus nearly every good assassin has a set of zealous daggers.
About the base damage, although assassins have low 7-17 hits, that is made up for by skills dealing +30-40 armor ignoring damage in very quick succession while laying conditions. And about having to "retreat or die" as you said for assassins, not true at all. Any sin can keep on a target with as little support as Way of Perfection or Shadow Refuge. They simply kill faster then move away so they don't get attacked as much.
EDIT: In PvP I still use that moebius/DB build, and it works with the right strategy. With critical defenses and critical strike added in, it can take any melee opponent. The only trouble is elementalists or hexes. Sometimes ill carry smite hex or something for the latter, and elementalists are normally easy to escape(if they are AoE, which most are nowadays) but if there really is trouble with other damage, just heal and escape. Build comes completely with Dark Escape and Shadow Refuge/Feigned Neutrality.
- Axes have a greater base damage, warriors can output significant pressure without burning a single point of energy. The damage from daggers sucks, they need to spam attack skills to be on par with a warrior. The warrior also gets shiny IAS that increase his base damage by... what? 33% IAS is a... 50% base damage boost.
- Using up your elite slot to be able to pressure as good as a warrior? Yeah.
Also, Triple Chop/Cylone Axe is really only good in PvE, I generally compare classes from a PvP aspect. Also, any kind of melee hate that would kill the 'sins DB/Moebius chain renders his 'pressure' laughable - while this hate affects the warrior too, he can keep auto attacking for NO energy while the 'sin has to restart the chain on someone else, wait out the prots/hexes or expend energy trying to continue DB/Moebius looping.
- The warrior is much tougher. Fact. When upfront pressuring the enemy, a warrior can keep at it while under (even heavy) fire, a 'sin would have to retreat or die.
- If someone gets protted to hell, the warrior can switch targets. The assassin can switch targets too, but expends energy in doing so and has to restart the combo. Yeah.
And adrenaline doesn't take all too long to charge up... it's even faster with FGJ!, Enraging Charge or an IAS.
While the DB/Moebius 'sins does look good on paper, admittedly, it is still not as good as a warrior in practice. Well... it is good in PvE, which is a moot point because you can get through PvE with no skills + heros or - even Mending...
^I was talking about PvE though lol. and I'd like to see how you get through the entire game with nothing but mending...And warriors adrenaline requiring no energy is nice sure, but thats mainly because there are hardly any ways for them to USE any energy effectively. They only have about 20 max energy to start with, and only 2 pips. Assassins have between 30-40 and 4 pips, plus loads of e-management skills that most assassins use, plus nearly every good assassin has a set of zealous daggers.
About the base damage, although assassins have low 7-17 hits, that is made up for by skills dealing +30-40 armor ignoring damage in very quick succession while laying conditions. And about having to "retreat or die" as you said for assassins, not true at all. Any sin can keep on a target with as little support as Way of Perfection or Shadow Refuge. They simply kill faster then move away so they don't get attacked as much.
EDIT: In PvP I still use that moebius/DB build, and it works with the right strategy. With critical defenses and critical strike added in, it can take any melee opponent. The only trouble is elementalists or hexes. Sometimes ill carry smite hex or something for the latter, and elementalists are normally easy to escape(if they are AoE, which most are nowadays) but if there really is trouble with other damage, just heal and escape. Build comes completely with Dark Escape and Shadow Refuge/Feigned Neutrality.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Kukulkan
And FROM WHERE the assassin has less armor than your redneck tarlouze en robe of dervish ?
Sin>Warrior>dervish, which is useless both in elite pve and pvp, just that everyone play them for the novelty : it is fashion to have a Dervish "o yeah look at my robe and my avatar" *bim a dagger between shoulders*
Stop saying sins have a low armor, they have 70, like rangers, like dervish and what ?
+15 with enchant for D, +15 against elemental damage for R okay... but sins do have +15 while attacking, just combine with flashing daggers it has a great survivability
It's like the same wammos since Factions' release love saying that sins have a cardboard armor... i'd say that they have are canned food
I don't know what you are talking about.
Dervishes have AoE autoattacks, which are highly desired in PvE. They also have Enchantments that let them survive in ridiculous conditions (in PvE). And in PvP a Dervish can apply and sustain a respectable amount of pressure, as well as playing in godmode - or something close to that - half the time.
Warriors are still the most versatile of them, though. Speaking in terms of PvP.
Sin>Warrior>dervish, which is useless both in elite pve and pvp, just that everyone play them for the novelty : it is fashion to have a Dervish "o yeah look at my robe and my avatar" *bim a dagger between shoulders*
Stop saying sins have a low armor, they have 70, like rangers, like dervish and what ?
+15 with enchant for D, +15 against elemental damage for R okay... but sins do have +15 while attacking, just combine with flashing daggers it has a great survivability
It's like the same wammos since Factions' release love saying that sins have a cardboard armor... i'd say that they have are canned food
I don't know what you are talking about.Dervishes have AoE autoattacks, which are highly desired in PvE. They also have Enchantments that let them survive in ridiculous conditions (in PvE). And in PvP a Dervish can apply and sustain a respectable amount of pressure, as well as playing in godmode - or something close to that - half the time.
Warriors are still the most versatile of them, though. Speaking in terms of PvP.
Mekkakat
this is the worst post i've ever seen on GWG.. the descriptions are totally biased and juvenile
warrior: most balanced class in the game as far as melee goes, capable of some of the biggest spikes in the game, pressure, and survivabilty. almost totally unmatched in the melee pvp world to this day
assassin: amazing dps.. for about 5 seconds. but usually, thats all it takes. this is THE class for assissted spike damage, and note ASSISSTED due to the lack of survivabilty in the stereotypical usage *note, there ARE ways to counter the lack of survivabilty
dervish: sadly reliant on a spam of enchants to do just about anything for the most part, are great at applying mad pressure, but lack practically any spikes unless you run that specific set.
as far as a general use in pve: warrior and dervish, with warrior in 1st place for damage and versatillity, paragons for healing and pressuring while the tank or ele does all the damage
and for pvp: warrior and sins, hands down. i've yet to see good dervs in TA/RA/HA, although i have seen some GREAT pressurers in GvG. warriors ad sin builds will vary just like in any situation, but typically warriors will have more of a choice as to what to play.. not just BoA lol
and for the RIDICULUS post about warriors dealing no damage and only being tanks.. get your head out of WoW and actually look at the real dps
get a derv to do the same dps as evis or decapitate at 15/16 weapon mastery and prove that that squishy can go toe to toe with a experienced warrior.
please dont be biased, all 3 can do a multitude of things, and be great at those things, but know where the roots are and what is still the most used/reliable i.e. warrior. its been killing players and beast in GWs since proph, so you cant say its only for tanking, cause you're just missing out
warrior: most balanced class in the game as far as melee goes, capable of some of the biggest spikes in the game, pressure, and survivabilty. almost totally unmatched in the melee pvp world to this day
assassin: amazing dps.. for about 5 seconds. but usually, thats all it takes. this is THE class for assissted spike damage, and note ASSISSTED due to the lack of survivabilty in the stereotypical usage *note, there ARE ways to counter the lack of survivabilty
dervish: sadly reliant on a spam of enchants to do just about anything for the most part, are great at applying mad pressure, but lack practically any spikes unless you run that specific set.
as far as a general use in pve: warrior and dervish, with warrior in 1st place for damage and versatillity, paragons for healing and pressuring while the tank or ele does all the damage
and for pvp: warrior and sins, hands down. i've yet to see good dervs in TA/RA/HA, although i have seen some GREAT pressurers in GvG. warriors ad sin builds will vary just like in any situation, but typically warriors will have more of a choice as to what to play.. not just BoA lol
and for the RIDICULUS post about warriors dealing no damage and only being tanks.. get your head out of WoW and actually look at the real dps
get a derv to do the same dps as evis or decapitate at 15/16 weapon mastery and prove that that squishy can go toe to toe with a experienced warrior.
please dont be biased, all 3 can do a multitude of things, and be great at those things, but know where the roots are and what is still the most used/reliable i.e. warrior. its been killing players and beast in GWs since proph, so you cant say its only for tanking, cause you're just missing out
Coloneh
Assasins are about the spike. thats it.
but i think dervishes are warriors are comparable. but everyone has their favorite. I like my dervish and cant find anything a warrior can do that my dervish cant do better. but experienced warriors might have as much sucess. I dont think we need to compare them.
but i think dervishes are warriors are comparable. but everyone has their favorite. I like my dervish and cant find anything a warrior can do that my dervish cant do better. but experienced warriors might have as much sucess. I dont think we need to compare them.
Mekkakat
the way i see it is like this..
this is a statistic-based post, that is about Joe Public. any experienced anything will be far superior to newer, novice, and ect.. so no, while i do not wish to compare silly things like opinions, i do feel as though warriors were totally flamed on in this post when its been proven time and time again they still have the highest longterm dps in the game, and their versatility is unmatched. im not being biased in any way, my fav class is ranger/mesmer, but i would like to see people not post based on a stereotyped view if the discussion is dealing with real numbers.
this is a statistic-based post, that is about Joe Public. any experienced anything will be far superior to newer, novice, and ect.. so no, while i do not wish to compare silly things like opinions, i do feel as though warriors were totally flamed on in this post when its been proven time and time again they still have the highest longterm dps in the game, and their versatility is unmatched. im not being biased in any way, my fav class is ranger/mesmer, but i would like to see people not post based on a stereotyped view if the discussion is dealing with real numbers.
moriz
most of you completely missed the mark about warriors.
they are NOT tanks. they are shock troopers. high innate defense, high natural damage, high natural survivability. they are the ideal physical damage dealers, and can surpass assassins and dervishes on almost any front if played by a skilled player.
they are NOT tanks. they are shock troopers. high innate defense, high natural damage, high natural survivability. they are the ideal physical damage dealers, and can surpass assassins and dervishes on almost any front if played by a skilled player.
Mekkakat
amen Moriz :P
Mesmer in Need
Warriors are the best equipped for being on the battlefield, with better armour and a shield, as well they can do a good deal of damage. if they can stay on the battlefield longer, they can provide more overall damage imo.
Sins, because of their low armour level, they cant stay in direct fire for as long, but they can teleport out. Because they cant stay one the battlefield all the time, they can't deal as much dot, but they can do quick bursts of high dmg.
Dervishes have excellent skills for giving them healt and/or armour, and they can stay on the battlefield for a good amount of time, but they eventually have to reatreat. The god forms can also add a tactical advantage.
Sins, because of their low armour level, they cant stay in direct fire for as long, but they can teleport out. Because they cant stay one the battlefield all the time, they can't deal as much dot, but they can do quick bursts of high dmg.
Dervishes have excellent skills for giving them healt and/or armour, and they can stay on the battlefield for a good amount of time, but they eventually have to reatreat. The god forms can also add a tactical advantage.
Coloneh
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
most of you completely missed the mark about warriors.
they are NOT tanks. they are shock troopers. high innate defense, high natural damage, high natural survivability. they are the ideal physical damage dealers, and can surpass assassins and dervishes on almost any front if played by a skilled player. this is my point. people say this, and i know my dervish can outdamage, and out tsurvive anything i can do on my warrior. I suppose its a matter of opinion.
they are NOT tanks. they are shock troopers. high innate defense, high natural damage, high natural survivability. they are the ideal physical damage dealers, and can surpass assassins and dervishes on almost any front if played by a skilled player. this is my point. people say this, and i know my dervish can outdamage, and out tsurvive anything i can do on my warrior. I suppose its a matter of opinion.
Mekkakat
well coloneh, that could be because of your playing style with your own warrior. i've yet to die to a dervish toe to toe on my warrior, and to me, they're easier to kill than sins anymore seeing as most use the same 3 cookie cutter builds... but thats if you want to get into opinions...
moriz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
this is my point. people say this, and i know my dervish can outdamage, and out tsurvive anything i can do on my warrior. I suppose its a matter of opinion.
that is true only if you are bad.
Coloneh
I dont think im tat good at warrior, but i know im good at dervish. It would really be interesting to me to see what a really good warrior can do compared to my dervish. I assume its about equal.
sgtclarity
Basically when I'm not frontlining, I feel the following emotions:
Good Warrior: Scared "Oh ****, I'm going to die."
Good Dervish: Annoyed "****ers don't die."
Good Assassin: Asleep "Wait, you thought you could spike me through my protter? *YAWN*"
Good Warrior: Scared "Oh ****, I'm going to die."
Good Dervish: Annoyed "****ers don't die."
Good Assassin: Asleep "Wait, you thought you could spike me through my protter? *YAWN*"
masteroflife
warrior has the highest DPS
Dervish can do Mini spike almost every 5-10 seconds
Assassins have the highest spike damage, but is very soft. also if u drain an assassin's energy or interupt a key skill in the chain, then they are useless.
Edit: Typos
Dervish can do Mini spike almost every 5-10 seconds
Assassins have the highest spike damage, but is very soft. also if u drain an assassin's energy or interupt a key skill in the chain, then they are useless.
Edit: Typos
Partyfoul
i dont enjoy the enhancement managing of a dervish seems like a pain the bum to me =(
ghostkai
to be fair though, most dervs are awful players who think avatar of Balthazar is teh 1337zor skillz... not to mention just how annoying it is when ur playing a prot monk and they insist on spamming pious assault whenever i enchant them....
and sgt clarity, you ever been spiked down by a sin using temple strike or assault enchantments?
and sgt clarity, you ever been spiked down by a sin using temple strike or assault enchantments?
ZenRgy
There is no such thing as a good dervish.
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai-JM
Summary: Low Armored. Fast. Deadly. Not as much armor and protection as other melee classes, but much faster, more DPS, and more conditions.
Wouldn't say sins have more DPS. In fact, they have the lowest DPS of the three. What they excel in is the ability to solo spike something in small packets. Warriors and dervishes can apply just as many conditions, but it is generally applied in a longer time period and results in much more efficient pressure.
Wouldn't say sins have more DPS. In fact, they have the lowest DPS of the three. What they excel in is the ability to solo spike something in small packets. Warriors and dervishes can apply just as many conditions, but it is generally applied in a longer time period and results in much more efficient pressure.
Silk Weaver
Sumarai's summary is a summary of "ninja/assassin" cliches, nothing about the actual game.
The inability or inefficiency to change targets quickly while spamming attack skills, or whatever it is (Moebius>DB Spam, Unsus > Wild > Death another possibility) means less versatility, means ease to counter, resulting in overall decreased pressure. Healing seed is a bad example, but it, SoR, SoD, SoA, Guardian, Spirit Bond, and other nifty skills make attacking one target constantly nothing short of stupid.
Dervishes can spike better than you give credit for. In my eyes, they spike better than assassins can pressure... BY FAR. Whereas an assassin's spike can give monks a -limited- amount of pressure by forcing hex removal or RoFs or spirit bonds or something, a Dervish can increase effeciency of spikes by not only pressuring the monks hard, overextending in the case of Melandru, especially D/A (grasping earth is nice too), and spike a hell lot more often. Just like VS and MS or whatever it is you use recharge and, bam, a small spike which happens to increase DPS as well, whereas a sin using its attack skills as often as it can is barely any pressure for monks without some sort of coordination or tactics... which -is- important, but not the point here since the same can be said of warriors and dervishes.
Dervishes in practice aren't as extreme, same with paragons, but they are really just doing what warriors are doing with some differences, ie. reliance on forms/less versatility in skills, and range + party buff.
Answer to temple strike... it really is just damage + daze. Handling daze on spikes is really just about the opposing team's ability to make it useful and yours to counter it. KDs and Blackouts (well, at one point anyway) tend to do this job a lot better though, and BHA are more for splits and pressure than anything.. in my opinion. The idea of dazing a spike target in a large group battle... well, it does not often depend on the spiked target to save itself save positioning and screaming SPIKE ON TWO before the spike actually happens, and having temple strike seriously gimps the spike ability... ie. easier to save the spike anyway. So there, no more mentions of the skill, okay?
ALSO. WARRIORS DO NOT TAKE EONS TO BUILD UP ADRENALINE LOL CLEAVE DISMEMBER GOGOGOGO.
Seriously, you're saying that evis charges slower than SP? Even BB is okay, especially since I use EC with it (Tiger Stance/Flail yar), but what exactly are you people basing your assumptions on? The truth is that it's mostly likely PvE where the results are very different. Monsters with level more than 20 have more armor than usual, meaning that the base damage of a warrior (and even dervish) becomes less effective when paired with the armor ignoring damage of a sin spike.
The inability or inefficiency to change targets quickly while spamming attack skills, or whatever it is (Moebius>DB Spam, Unsus > Wild > Death another possibility) means less versatility, means ease to counter, resulting in overall decreased pressure. Healing seed is a bad example, but it, SoR, SoD, SoA, Guardian, Spirit Bond, and other nifty skills make attacking one target constantly nothing short of stupid.
Dervishes can spike better than you give credit for. In my eyes, they spike better than assassins can pressure... BY FAR. Whereas an assassin's spike can give monks a -limited- amount of pressure by forcing hex removal or RoFs or spirit bonds or something, a Dervish can increase effeciency of spikes by not only pressuring the monks hard, overextending in the case of Melandru, especially D/A (grasping earth is nice too), and spike a hell lot more often. Just like VS and MS or whatever it is you use recharge and, bam, a small spike which happens to increase DPS as well, whereas a sin using its attack skills as often as it can is barely any pressure for monks without some sort of coordination or tactics... which -is- important, but not the point here since the same can be said of warriors and dervishes.
Dervishes in practice aren't as extreme, same with paragons, but they are really just doing what warriors are doing with some differences, ie. reliance on forms/less versatility in skills, and range + party buff.
Answer to temple strike... it really is just damage + daze. Handling daze on spikes is really just about the opposing team's ability to make it useful and yours to counter it. KDs and Blackouts (well, at one point anyway) tend to do this job a lot better though, and BHA are more for splits and pressure than anything.. in my opinion. The idea of dazing a spike target in a large group battle... well, it does not often depend on the spiked target to save itself save positioning and screaming SPIKE ON TWO before the spike actually happens, and having temple strike seriously gimps the spike ability... ie. easier to save the spike anyway. So there, no more mentions of the skill, okay?
ALSO. WARRIORS DO NOT TAKE EONS TO BUILD UP ADRENALINE LOL CLEAVE DISMEMBER GOGOGOGO.
Seriously, you're saying that evis charges slower than SP? Even BB is okay, especially since I use EC with it (Tiger Stance/Flail yar), but what exactly are you people basing your assumptions on? The truth is that it's mostly likely PvE where the results are very different. Monsters with level more than 20 have more armor than usual, meaning that the base damage of a warrior (and even dervish) becomes less effective when paired with the armor ignoring damage of a sin spike.
Wild Karrde
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
I dont think im tat good at warrior, but i know im good at dervish. It would really be interesting to me to see what a really good warrior can do compared to my dervish. I assume its about equal.
Simply put you really cant compare, Any warrior thats going to do a 1 on 1 fight will bring Riposte/Deadly Riposte and some other block stances, and any dervish will prolly bring an avatar or a Mystic regen build. That fight could last for hours, and it would come down to who gives up first. I have both a Warrior and a Dervish and I can think of several builds I could use 1 on 1 agianst another melee class
1 on 1 fights dont belong in Guild Wars, and cant be used to determine which is better cause no one will use a 1 on 1 fight build in any other situation. (except AB where you see Riposte wars by the handful, and everyone wants to 1v1)
There have been many posts before and the general concensus is the warriors are the most versatile class out of the mellee classes
All I know is that Eviscerate + Executioners is a SCARY thing to be hit with.
1 on 1 fights dont belong in Guild Wars, and cant be used to determine which is better cause no one will use a 1 on 1 fight build in any other situation. (except AB where you see Riposte wars by the handful, and everyone wants to 1v1)
There have been many posts before and the general concensus is the warriors are the most versatile class out of the mellee classes
All I know is that Eviscerate + Executioners is a SCARY thing to be hit with.
Boris De Pig
To add my 2 cents...
Something that appears to have been forgotten is the 'fun' element. After all this is a game which most of us want to enjoy.
I have both a Warrior and an Assassin, and both of them have 3 protector titles (I only do PvE) and to compare the experiences is interesting.
With the Warrior I spend most of my time trying to protect the backline by body-blocking and trying to stop the backline from coming under a lot of melee damage. There is no doubting that this is an effective strategy for PvE since it probably took less time to finish the 3 campaigns on my warrior than it did my 'sin.
With the 'sin I float around the fringes and take out 'key' targets. Usually monks/necro's/ele's. The playing style with the 'sin seems a lot more fun to me. With the Warrior it was always a case of rush to engage the closest targets and try to keep the backline safe dropping in skills as appropriate. With the 'sin it was hold 'ctrl' and look around for which targets would be best off killing first.
However, when comparing the /deaths of them both the results are fairly clear... the 'sin has over 1,500 deaths, wheras the warrior is approaching 250, but as far as the 'fun' element goes I find it a lot more enjoyable to lurk on the fringes taking down key targets with the 'sin than soaking up the damage on the warrior.
I don't profess to be the greatest warrior or 'sin in the game, but I have played both classess through 3 campaigns for 3 protector titles so I like to think I know what I'm about in PvE with these chars.
Dervish I just cannot get the hang of at all. I'm 'Dervishly challenged' I think. I think that each of the 3 classess can be played in their own way and are useful for different things. It comes down to personal preference I think about what you prefer, for me, I love the 'sins ability to shadow step in and wreak havoc on the backline over the Warrior's 'slow steady' approach. Both systems seem to work fine in PvE it's just that one is more fun than the other to me.
BdP
Something that appears to have been forgotten is the 'fun' element. After all this is a game which most of us want to enjoy.
I have both a Warrior and an Assassin, and both of them have 3 protector titles (I only do PvE) and to compare the experiences is interesting.
With the Warrior I spend most of my time trying to protect the backline by body-blocking and trying to stop the backline from coming under a lot of melee damage. There is no doubting that this is an effective strategy for PvE since it probably took less time to finish the 3 campaigns on my warrior than it did my 'sin.
With the 'sin I float around the fringes and take out 'key' targets. Usually monks/necro's/ele's. The playing style with the 'sin seems a lot more fun to me. With the Warrior it was always a case of rush to engage the closest targets and try to keep the backline safe dropping in skills as appropriate. With the 'sin it was hold 'ctrl' and look around for which targets would be best off killing first.
However, when comparing the /deaths of them both the results are fairly clear... the 'sin has over 1,500 deaths, wheras the warrior is approaching 250, but as far as the 'fun' element goes I find it a lot more enjoyable to lurk on the fringes taking down key targets with the 'sin than soaking up the damage on the warrior.
I don't profess to be the greatest warrior or 'sin in the game, but I have played both classess through 3 campaigns for 3 protector titles so I like to think I know what I'm about in PvE with these chars.
Dervish I just cannot get the hang of at all. I'm 'Dervishly challenged' I think. I think that each of the 3 classess can be played in their own way and are useful for different things. It comes down to personal preference I think about what you prefer, for me, I love the 'sins ability to shadow step in and wreak havoc on the backline over the Warrior's 'slow steady' approach. Both systems seem to work fine in PvE it's just that one is more fun than the other to me.
BdP
Marverick
A Dervish can do more pure damage than a Warrior anyday, there's nothing to argue about that really.
HOWEVER,
Damage is really the only thing they can do. They have very few utility skills and cannot knockdown or disrupt without limiting their secondary profession. This makes them amazing in PvE where there is no need to disrupt mobs while spiking, but in PvP they cannot kill a decent monk alone because they lack disruption, while warriors have knockdowns, shock, Disrupting Chop, etc.
Warriors have great innate utility that makes them deal out higher pressure in Pvp. They can knockdown fleeing foes with Bull's Strike. Hammer spikes can keep the foe on their foot unable to do anything while dealing heavy damage. And they can use their secondary for Shock, Rending Touch, Shadowsteps, etc.
Assassins can easily top a Dervish in damage for PvE, though. Moebius -> DB provides amazing, sustainable damage and most PvE mobs won't distract your Moebius Strike or anything so you're free to plough through. Shadow Prison spikes do more damage in 4 seconds than any other build, and in PvE Assassin's Promise allows the chain to be used repeatedly as stuff will nearly always die in PvE due to lack of protection.
In PvP Assassin spikes hit hard, but a single disrupt on their chain leaves them hacking away futily while waiting for recharges.
So really, IMHO
PvE:
Assassin > Dervish > Warrior
PvP:
Warrior > Dervish = Assassin
HOWEVER,
Damage is really the only thing they can do. They have very few utility skills and cannot knockdown or disrupt without limiting their secondary profession. This makes them amazing in PvE where there is no need to disrupt mobs while spiking, but in PvP they cannot kill a decent monk alone because they lack disruption, while warriors have knockdowns, shock, Disrupting Chop, etc.
Warriors have great innate utility that makes them deal out higher pressure in Pvp. They can knockdown fleeing foes with Bull's Strike. Hammer spikes can keep the foe on their foot unable to do anything while dealing heavy damage. And they can use their secondary for Shock, Rending Touch, Shadowsteps, etc.
Assassins can easily top a Dervish in damage for PvE, though. Moebius -> DB provides amazing, sustainable damage and most PvE mobs won't distract your Moebius Strike or anything so you're free to plough through. Shadow Prison spikes do more damage in 4 seconds than any other build, and in PvE Assassin's Promise allows the chain to be used repeatedly as stuff will nearly always die in PvE due to lack of protection.
In PvP Assassin spikes hit hard, but a single disrupt on their chain leaves them hacking away futily while waiting for recharges.
So really, IMHO
PvE:
Assassin > Dervish > Warrior
PvP:
Warrior > Dervish = Assassin
Mekkakat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marverick
A Dervish can do more pure damage than a Warrior anyday, there's nothing to argue about that really.
HOWEVER,
Damage is really the only thing they can do. They have very few utility skills and cannot knockdown or disrupt without limiting their secondary profession. This makes them amazing in PvE where there is no need to disrupt mobs while spiking, but in PvP they cannot kill a decent monk alone because they lack disruption, while warriors have knockdowns, shock, Disrupting Chop, etc.
Warriors have great innate utility that makes them deal out higher pressure in Pvp. They can knockdown fleeing foes with Bull's Strike. Hammer spikes can keep the foe on their foot unable to do anything while dealing heavy damage. And they can use their secondary for Shock, Rending Touch, Shadowsteps, etc.
Assassins can easily top a Dervish in damage for PvE, though. Moebius -> DB provides amazing, sustainable damage and most PvE mobs won't distract your Moebius Strike or anything so you're free to plough through. Shadow Prison spikes do more damage in 4 seconds than any other build, and in PvE Assassin's Promise allows the chain to be used repeatedly as stuff will nearly always die in PvE due to lack of protection.
In PvP Assassin spikes hit hard, but a single disrupt on their chain leaves them hacking away futily while waiting for recharges.
So really, IMHO
PvE:
Assassin > Dervish > Warrior
PvP:
Warrior > Dervish = Assassin
so you're saying an assassin can last in pve, hold aggro in pve, lead in pve, and keep its damage dealing, energy contained, pure overall dps higher than a warrior??
thats just silly.
HOWEVER,
Damage is really the only thing they can do. They have very few utility skills and cannot knockdown or disrupt without limiting their secondary profession. This makes them amazing in PvE where there is no need to disrupt mobs while spiking, but in PvP they cannot kill a decent monk alone because they lack disruption, while warriors have knockdowns, shock, Disrupting Chop, etc.
Warriors have great innate utility that makes them deal out higher pressure in Pvp. They can knockdown fleeing foes with Bull's Strike. Hammer spikes can keep the foe on their foot unable to do anything while dealing heavy damage. And they can use their secondary for Shock, Rending Touch, Shadowsteps, etc.
Assassins can easily top a Dervish in damage for PvE, though. Moebius -> DB provides amazing, sustainable damage and most PvE mobs won't distract your Moebius Strike or anything so you're free to plough through. Shadow Prison spikes do more damage in 4 seconds than any other build, and in PvE Assassin's Promise allows the chain to be used repeatedly as stuff will nearly always die in PvE due to lack of protection.
In PvP Assassin spikes hit hard, but a single disrupt on their chain leaves them hacking away futily while waiting for recharges.
So really, IMHO
PvE:
Assassin > Dervish > Warrior
PvP:
Warrior > Dervish = Assassin
so you're saying an assassin can last in pve, hold aggro in pve, lead in pve, and keep its damage dealing, energy contained, pure overall dps higher than a warrior??
thats just silly.
Nkah Sennyt
As far as PvP [HA] goes, when doing midline casting and I see one of those three on me, my reactions:
Assassin: "RC me in 2 seconds and I'm fine." Not really a big problem. Usually don't kite if I know my monks.
Dervish: "Prot spirit me, them hurts." A little concerned, hoping my monks are on the ball. Kite some until they lose interest.
Warrior: "Ugh. This will probably suck. Prot plx." Kite until he goes away.
Assassin: "RC me in 2 seconds and I'm fine." Not really a big problem. Usually don't kite if I know my monks.
Dervish: "Prot spirit me, them hurts." A little concerned, hoping my monks are on the ball. Kite some until they lose interest.
Warrior: "Ugh. This will probably suck. Prot plx." Kite until he goes away.
Mekkakat
i agree 100% with Nkah. takes moments to end a sins chain in many ways. dervs are usually just mostly a pest rather than any form of immediate threat, and warriors are the ones to watch out for.
Lutae
Maybe I'm a noob with assassins, but I just want to ask... how do you keep enemies alive so you can keep on doing the Moebius-Deathblossom loop on them?
Mekkakat
im not sure what you mean by "keep enemies alive"
Nkah Sennyt
He means, how to keep the attack chain up if they die during it. Um... if they die during it, it's usually a good thing. The Moebius chain is nifty, but you really don't wanna be hitting one thing for too long if you're a sin. They're not designed to stand still for long periods of time.
Spura
Quote:
Originally Posted by masteroflife
warrior has the highest DPS
Actually Scythe has highest base DPS of all weapons.