[Dev Update] Soul Reaping and Mesmer Issues

In this Dev Update, you can read details about changes to two professions: Necromancers and Mesmers. In the first case, changes to the Necromancer attribute Soul Reaping have raised a few specific player concerns, and the dev team would like to share an update on that subject. In the second case, you'll find preliminary information about how the designers are looking at the Mesmer, with some early thoughts on potential changes to the profession that will be directed towards Mesmer players in PvE mode.

Necromancers and Soul Reaping

In a nutshell, Soul Reaping was working too powerfully in the past. After all, all professions save the Necromancer have had to keep a careful eye on energy management, because managing that resource is intended to be a significant part of the gameplay experience. No profession should be in a position to have a nearly-limitless supply or energy, and frankly, Soul Reaping was just too powerful in the overall scope of things. Some have suggested that the recent changes were put in place to rebalance PvP, but in fact, both PvP and PvE were affected by the overly generous way in which Soul Reaping worked. This was highlighted for the team in recent months during their Hard Mode playbalance tests.

The goal of the change to Soul Reaping is to bring the Necromancer's energy pool to a more reasonable level in a way that affects extreme cases more than normal cases. The existing change does successfully place an upper limit on energy from Soul Reaping, but the designers are concerned that the five second rule is inelegant, being a little random in its effects when triggering Soul Reaping through quick kills. They are going to continue to investigate a better way to accomplish the same energy-related "reality check" while being a bit more lenient in how it is applied. If this is done, some of the recent energy cost changes to skills may be reverted.

Those who have contributed forum posts with detailed builds have helped immeasurably. You should know that every single build you've posted is being reproduced at ArenaNet, and not only that, it is being tested with both the former SR rules and the current ones. This allows the designers to acquire a "before and after" view, which will help the designers get a realistic appraisal of where the Nec was and where it is now. With that information, they can look at the best means to accomplish their intended goal. So while Soul Reaping will not be adjusted back to the way it was, the designers will continue to look at ways to achieve the desired outcomes in the best way possible.

Mesmers and PvE

As mentioned a few weeks ago, the designers are going to be taking a look at Mesmers, particularly Mesmers in PvE situations. (We all know they do just fine in PvP. ) ArenaNet has noted that players who choose Mesmer as a profession feel that they are not invited into parties as often as other professions, and the design team feels that this impression is probably correct. Here are three reasons that this might happen:

Scope: Some professions are better at dealing with a large group, where the Mesmer is a more focused profession and the contribution they're making to a party may not be as easily seen. While they can do what they do very well indeed, they are not as likely to have a pile of bodies at their feet, which means that some of their party members may not realize how much the Mesmer is actually contributing to the battle. Of course, whether the swath is fine or broad, it all requires…

Skill: The Mesmer profession requires a high level of skill to play well. That's not to say that other professions do not also require skill, but the Mesmer is rather more complex, and it's possible that across the board, there is a wider range of skill in the Mesmer player group as a whole. Because of this, the Mesmer can be faced with …

Skepticism: When people form a party, particularly a pick-up group, they don't really know for certain if they are choosing a highly skilled Mesmer or someone who's less likely to make a major contribution. When faced with the choice of partners, they may take the easier road, even if they're missing the opportunity to have a more fun and more successful adventure by including a Mesmer.

The word from Lead Designer James Phinney on Mesmers is that the designers are going to take a look at potentially widening the scope of the Mesmers and, perhaps, adding more damage to the mix in a "Mesmer-themed way." The Mesmer will never become a pure damage-dealer, not at all! But the team wants to look at an increase in both scope and damage while considering how to improve the lot of Mesmers in PvE.

Thanks for the update on this. I for one see the relevance of the SR "nerf," however I'm curious as to why they (devs) didn't just adjust it to not trigger on spirits or minions. If we could get some insight on that, I think that would be some useful knowledge.

The mesmer adjustment has me curious. I can't wait to see what they come up with for them.

P.S. - In before the flames!

We're all adults here, there won't be any flames...I'm sure of it.

Or in other words, shelve your necromancer until anet figures out what to do with the class, because they dont know what to do with the class right now, and dont hope for Mesmers to be decent in pvE until new skills from GW:EN come out.

Thank you Gaile for bringing this delightful news to the Mesmer community.
On behalf of all Mesmers I say; Thank you all that will do Mesmers more attractive in PVE.

There is no need to "shelve your necromancer" you just need to learn how to play it without unlimited amounts of energy. Try watching that little blue bar and bring some energy management skills like the other professions.

And the complaints have already begun....

Maybe they really should just revert the Necro back to the way it was in PVE and give the Mesmer a rocket launcher for PVE only. Then the only thing left to complain about would be about how ugly the rocket launcher is.

To everyone arguying with me in the soul reaping thread, read the OP.
Thanks.

P.S. Please don't make a bunch of new pre-nerf spiritual pain type skills, or if you do, make them PvE only.

Read the above OP again. Anet clearly doesnt know what to do with the class. They think the old rules were broken and the new rules are broken (inelegant) Whats the point of spending the time learning to play something that, either way, is broken.

Why not shelve your necromancer and wait until anet fixes the issue?

I assume you are being sarcastic, cause...

Yes please shelve your necro because you clearly dont know how to play one without near infinite energy.

Glad to see a-net taking the time to look at the suggestions of people. o_O

Thanks for the update Gaile. xD

Do you have any timescale on the implementation of these changes. There's a long way to go til GW:en and it would help no end if these were in place sooner than that. Hard Mode awaits after all.

I love this........Gw has been around 2 years and NOW they nerf soul reaping. And it looks like they have no idea what to do now that it's even more broken on the downside that it was beneficiary on the upside. One solitary skill balancer........and a plethora of much better ideas from the community

I for one haven't played my necro since the nerf. If they buff up mesmers I'll delete the necro and start a new mesmer just so I won't have to play with a crippled toon.

"Investigating a better way" does not mean "they don't know what to do with it". I'm quite sure they have a few ideas in mind, they are, as Gaile said, investigating (meaning testing) what would possibly be the best solution.

Inelegant does not mean "broken" either. The only people insisting that necromancers are broken now are the people like you.

Because they're still extremely useful.

Copied post from Daisuko...I think it is a very good post and something that dev's may not be taking into consideration with the SR nerf, thought I'd post it here in-case you miss it on the other thread:

That's exactly the point of being a Necromancer in the first place, for Endurance over an extended period of time... Mesmers are meant to shut down whatever they're designed to, they can do both, melee and casters. Also, there are MANY energy stealing mesmer skills, equip a few and you're good to go. Elementalist ALSO have good energy managment, as well as an energy ceiling higher than any other class can attain... Mesmers can string off more spells due to shortaned casting time, and elementalists can use more high-costing spells.. neither of them being death-dependant. Necromancers only get their energy if something does in fact die, if nothing's dying, they don't get energy, and their energy pool dwindles away. In PvE Deaths are usually not hard to attain, save for in high-level areas... and due to AI changes, mostly you must spike entire groups to death all at once, therefore you would only gain the energy from 1 death instead of all... Minion bombing, for one, (though I haven't tried since the update) would likely be highly ineffective, since the entire idea is to make multiple minions quickly, and then cause them all to explode at once, causing massive spike damage. However, now you will only gain enough energy from doing so to cast maybe 1 or 2 minion spells to attempt to re-build your army of bombs before you're defenseless.

Furthermore, while Necrmancers are the only class who can "bank" their energy on mob deaths, that relies on a steady supply of deaths... There are many, MANY skills to gain energy. EVERY class has energy managment of some sort, And skills aside, Barrage, Triple chop/Cyclone axe or Hundred Blades, and all Scythe attacks can gain energy fairly quickly without any skills at all, merely using a zealous weapon. There are also Balthazar's spirit, and the mantras wich gain energy on hit... Heck, Greater conflagration combined with Storm chaser is the fastest method of energy gain I can think of. While Necromancers are the only ones relying on deaths for energy, they're really the only ones that NEED to rely on deaths for energy. For example...

A ranger decides to be R/Mo, puts on essance bond and Balthazar's spirit, with a Zealous Bow.

There will be no energy regeneration at all. Someone else in the party brings Greater Conflagration....

The ranger wears Pyrebound armor.

Suddenly, you have a ranger who (with high enough expertise or targets) Is GAINING energy upon each barrage, and if anyone attacks said ranger, they gain 6 energy per attack as all attacks would be elemental. It would only take a very paltry amount of hits on that ranger to boost it's energy to maximum, and with expertise further reducing the cost of skills, Near-infinite energy is attained.

Or perhaps any elementalist who runs E/Me Stone striker/Mantra of earth?

What about warrior's endurance or Zealous Vow? Both of those give warriors or dervish extremely high energy gain.

And as long as there are no skills to prevent critical hits, assassins can often gain 4 or 5 energy per critical hit, and have several skills available to ensure critical hits...

So while Necromancers may very well be the only one counting on deaths, they're really the only one that needs to, since their primary attribute does just that, and all other classes have other, easier to attain methods of gaining energy.

And lastly, (how many times have I said this so far?) Factions does not have ANY energy managment aside from soul reaping based in necromancer-only skills. Offering of blood and Consume corpse are Prophecies, and Signet of lost souls and Reaper's mark are both Nightfall. What does that leave those who only own factions? I'll tell you what, Nothing. Nothing but Soul reaping wich is far less reliable than it once was.

Mesmers are already quite useful in PvE, it's just that non-mesmers tend to be far too intellectually challenged to realize this simple fact.

I wonder when the new updates is coming?

So youre going to make some spells AoE and increase the damage like you did with Signet of Clumsiness?

The real problem is that Meteor Shower pwns all pve, and with echos and glyphs of renewals thats all an ele needs. Add an SS for constant damage in AoE, and you win PvE.

Bonds are too strong as a form of defence, meaning that any caster can just nuke the enemy without the need to shut them down.

Tanking makes the whole thing even simpler; line them up, and nuke them down.

Where could a Mesmer fit into such PvE? Fix PvE, not mesmers.

Thanks for posting!

How can mesmers be made better in PvE without making them incredibly overpowered in PvP? I almost always play as an Elementalist, and currently when I see a mesmer on the opposing team, I know it is going to be a rough battle.

By the addition of the much waited upon PvE only skills.

Necros: Ive said a lot already. But people never listen to me so...whatever.

Mesmers: Anet. Put a reason to need mesmers. -.- Mesmers are the anti-class. Theres no reason for them in PvE since brute force can kill most mobs. MS can cause KD and damage, who needs a mes.

You dont see mobs stacking 3-4 enchantments or having "shut him down or we all die".

By the addition of the much waited upon PvE only skills.

Of course, this will have the side effect of resulting in only one or two builds of mesmer being accepted in PuGs, thus greatly reducing the incredible variety the class offers.

Am I the only person here who ever has energy issues on a necro???? >_> Usually in pvp when I play curses, but it happens... often... enough

<_<

((btw this wasn't meant as a OMG NOT ANOTHER NERF post, I've learned that crying over spilled milk just means that it will go bad before you get a chance to lap it up))

I'm thinking I must be playing my necro the wrong way.
Before the change to SR I always felt like I was cheating when I used him in PvE.
After the change to SR I still feel like it's cheating to use him and have barely noticed a change to my energy recovery.

Please tell me how to play so that I can chew up all of my energy and never get it back so I can complain with everyone else.

I look forward to the Mesmer buff.

As for Soul Reaping, I really don't understand how this is such a difficult issue for ANet.
There really aren't that many possibilities here in terms a happy medium between what we had before and what we have now, so why not just list all those possibilities pick the one you like best (after testing, of course).
I'll even make the list for them:
1. Make Soul Reaping function like it did before, but reduce the amount of energy gained per level of Soul Reaping (such as 1 energy per 2 levels of Soul Reaping).
2. Make Soul Reaping Function like it does now, but reduce the amount of time between triggers (such as once every 3 seconds).
3. Make Soul Reaping Function like it did before before, but spirits no longer trigger it.
4. Make Soul Reaping Function like it did before before, but spirits and minions no longer trigger it.
5. Make Soul Reaping Function like it did before before, but spirits and minions summoned by teammates no longer trigger it, only spirits and minions summoned by YOU.
6. Make Soul Reaping Function like it did before before, but spirits and minions summoned by teammates no longer trigger it, only minions (but not spirits) summoned by YOU.
7. A combination of #1 and #3, 4, 5, or 6 (pick one to combine with #1).

Those are your 7 options. All you need to do is pick one.
Personally, I'm not a fan of option #2 (still inelegant) or #7 (too nerfed), so that leaves #1 (reduce energy gained per level of Soul Reaping), or #3-#6 (changing how minions and spirits work with Soul Reaping).

If you don't want to mess around with how minions and spirits work, then the easiest solution is clearly #1. Just make Soul Reaping give you 1 energy per 2 ranks of Soul Reaping.
The energy gained will probably be pretty darn close to what you get now with the retooled once-per-5-second rule, but you do away with the inelegance and clunkiness that you have now and make it natural again like it was before.
Instead of adding clunky rules, just change how it scales.

Let's bear in mind a couple of facts when considering the Soul Reaping nerf: Necromancers have always had Soul Reaping (for the two years since Prophecies came out) and Soul Reaping is no more effective in PvE now than it was in April 2005.

That sort of puts the 'we think it is overpowered in PvE too' argument out to pasture. Either Anet are monumentally ignorant (having failed to notice what Soul Reaping does for two years) or the statement is simply inaccurate. I fail to see how something which has not changed can suddenly need a nerf after two years, and PvE Soul Reaping hadn't changed.

Necros were too easy before, and they were a dime a dozen. Now it's time for necros to really shine. I don't think of this as a set back, just a new challenge. and hopefully we (necros) will show what we can do, without the unlimited energy. And all those crap necros will quickly leave the proff, and go and try something else.

Gaile,

Would it help if mesmers sent in their favorite all mesmer skill PvE builds also? It may give the devs an idea of what's in use atm and their effects on mobs.

If so, how do we go about such things?

I think my biggest beef with current SR is that getting energy every 5 seconds is a bit sporadic and feels very unnatural. It's sorta like running with duct tape on your favorite pair of sunglasses. It works just fine and holds them together, but there's a much better and smoother way to fix the problem I believe.

As for the mesmer changes, I admit I am intrigued. I love the mesmer class, but hate the fact that most enemies in PvE fall before the effectiveness of many mesmer builds/skills can be truly seen. I do hope that A-net can find a good balance to this class for PvE while maintaining the mesmer style that they have.

p.s. @Gaile: I thought the way you worded your section on mesmers was quite clever.

Thanks for Update! Good to see that Anet cares about it's people

Mesmer are a great class already... am curious about how they gonna improve them or make them better in PvE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

oh....and lets not forget:

AOE Nerf
Absorption Nerf
Knights Global Nerf

Just because its in the game for a long time, doesn't mean it will not change.
Just because its in the game for a long time, doesn't leave it outside of ammending.

Any good necromancer knows how powerful SR was. Whats arguable is wether it should have been changed.

Gaile Gray:

The developers have said and can be quoted saying that Soul Reaping has less skills bound to it than any attribute BECAUSE it is so powerful. Answer this: For a person without signet of lost souls, what would be better- points in soul reaping or in inspiration magic? Soul Reaping will give you a POTENTIAL energy boost, likely at a time when you do not need it. Inspiration can give you countless skills for managing your energy on demand. People say "Soul Reaping" gives unlimited energy... well, I'd much rather put a couple skills on my bar to get energy *on demand* then I would dump a bunch of points into an attribute that only provides a POSSIBILITY of energy gain every 5 seconds, very possibly at times you do not need it (maybe a minion master will enjoy the energy, but a hexer would probably want more energy *while* killing the enemy, not after the enemy is dead!)

Signet of Lost Souls does help, but if you insist on making Soul Reaping limited, I must propose that GW:EN will have a significant amount of Soul Reaping skills (not to mention Dervish, Paragon, Ritualist, and Assassin skills, as they have less than the main professions). That way, if Necromancers are reliant on skills for energy management, they will have different options that they can use instead of being forced to either take signet of lost souls or pour the would-be soul reaping points into a secondary energy management skill.

The simple fact that the "holy trinity" of Guild Wars is Warrior, Monk, and Elementalist clearly shows that Necromancers were not as overpowered as they were hyped to be. Minion masters, yes. Minion masters were and are overpowered, but other types of Necromancers are much less useful than the "holy trinity", except of course maybe Spiteful Spirit or Blood is Power necromancers. It is a great shame that unless the Necromancer is an MM or one of perhaps 3 cookie cutter builds, the Necromancer is pretty underpowered compared to the holy trinity- of course, perhaps I shouldn't be complaining, as Mesmers have it worse (personally, I find Mesmers to be a great help, but the average "omg u dont do damage" mentality of most PuGers keeps them out of groups- and of course, at least Necromancers have a few builds groups want!).

Would one be able to make an argument that damage prevention is an important aspect of Guild Wars? Yes, of course, just like Energy Management, after all, what is the use of energy when you are dead? Well, Warriors have superior damage prevention than any other class because of the insanely high armor level and shield. Why should they take half physical damage than a caster would while casters would need skills to prevent such damage?

One could argue that recovering life, too, is an important aspect. So why do Monks get free heals whenever they use a spell on an ally? Orison of Healing, for example, heals for a max of 73 health. Divine Favor can heal for +51 health whenever a skill is used.

51/73=.7
.7*5=3.5

You could look at it saying every time a monk uses a spell, that monk gains 3.5 energy as that is how much energy would have been spent in an orison of healing on the target. What if the monk casts a bunch of cheap spells? That could lead to massive energy savings! Every 5 spells, over 16 energy would be saved. That would mean that, unless there are so many deaths that a monk can not cast 5 or more spells in between deaths, the monk is getting better passive energy from the primary attribute than a necromancer.

Also, why should monks get free heals? If my Necromancer goes /Monk, I would actually need to equip skills to heal my teammates. However, a Monk gets passive healing. But isn't heal management a part of the game? Why should they get free heals but I must actively put skills on my bar? Perhaps for the same reason Necromancers can manage energy without putting skills on the bar!

One could argue day and night over what gives professions a better advantage over one another. However, I rarely if ever in PvE would ever see a Necro/Ele spamming fire spells because of this alleged "infinite energy" thing. Perhaps you are greatly overestimating the power of soul reaping? An Ele can put a ton of points in either soul reaping or energy storage. Why do they always pick the energy storage? Perhaps because Soul Reaping suits Necromancer skills good while Energy Storage suits Elementalist skills good. If Soul Reaping was such an overpowered energy management, then surely all the elementalists would want a piece of the action! After all, why would they care about dealing maybe 10 less damage when they have infinite energy to spam anything they want whenever they want? I'd certainly sacrifice a little damage for "infinite" energy as claimed, and any thinking Elementalist would do so as well. Perhaps this is indicative that Soul Reaping, while obviously needing a nerf because of the overpowered PvP exploit, is not quite as overpowered as people are hyping it up to be.

If the other thread is still accepting builds, I will gladly post some of mine later. Peace.

@ above posts,
(@17) SR was a passive energy engine because things die all the time, especially in PvE. Your argument is quite weak. All the builds you listed require skill slots (including an elite slot, and even set secondaries!!!) and in some cases require investment in two attribute lines just for these skills. If you want me to show you some math, I will be glad to.

The reason there are chapters that have better skills than others is because Anet is trying to maximize profits by giving you the illusion that your character will never reach full potential unless you buy the remaining chapters. Tough shit.

(to rest) Also, "Inelegant" doesn't mean broken, it just means that it isn't perfect and doesn't feel as natural, which they are working on.

The communities ideas are mostly shite, with some good ones (like ensign's fixes) burried in piles of poorly thought out suggestions that do nothing to game balance and only promote imbalance and overpowered zerg mindless skills (*remembers pre-nerf SP and all the crap suggestions that came once it was made less insane*).

As repeated countless times- nerfing for the sole purpose of PvE is never desirable by the PvE community. They NEVER want a PvE nerf. NEVER. EVER. FOREVER, NEVER. EVER.They want buffs!

As long as the PvErs are happy, ANet will not change the 'balance' (for a lack of a better word) of PvE.

For example, 55 monks by all definition is unbalance and broken. Will ANet 'fix' it? No. Because the vast majority of PvErs want to have their 55 monks. In PvP, 55 monks are absolutely useless and does not matter. So it stays. If the 55 monk ever affects PvP mechanics then ANet might nerf something about it.

Got it?

@Series

You know why Eles want ES vs SR? It is called skills.
And if I was a PvE ele - if the ES skills are available in SR - I would definetly pick SR over ES for passive energy management.

ES IS A HORRIBLE energy management. It is the skills in that attribute line that makes it worth it. But definitely not the passive bonuse of +3e per point.

This is utterly disappointing. Anet has lost control over it's creation and isn't capable to design a viable solution.

For crying out loud. Do we need yet another thread turned into an SR complaint thread?

Couldn't agree more.

What I don't like is that they keep neutering my MMs and claiming it was a PvE rebalance. Exactly a year ago, with the introduction of Factions, that they gave us the Minion Cap and claimed it wasn't due to PvP or AB concerns but purely for PvE reasons. Did Shiro or Mungri Magicbox complain?

Now they go after SR and again claim it was not to counter PvP Spirit-Spam (which the entire PvP community is complaining about) but instead is due equally to Hard Mode concerns. I.just.don't.buy.it.

MM's must be a huge design mistake, because Anet re-designs them with nearly every major content addition. Aren't the maps supposed to be built around the characters, not the other way around? In the case of MMs, we get readjusted whenever a new map or dungeon comes out to keep us 'in check'.

How the classes attack (and why mesmers are the least appreciated...):

Warriors: Through brute force and strength of muscle you are beaten into a pulp.
Elementalists: The very forces of nature are brought down upon you.
Rangers: Rain death from afar.
Necromancers: Tap the dark forces and eat you from within.
Monks: Summon the power of the gods to smite you down.
Assassins: As fast as they arrive, they are gone. So are you.
Dervishes: Whirling scythes and arcane might quickly dispatch foe upon foe.
Ritualists: Summon the powers of the other side to do their bidding.
Paragons: Spears at range tear you apart.
Mesmers: Sip their latte while you kill yourself for them.