So, now we have Hard Mode. Yay.
There are now a total of 56 missions that require a group to be completed in Hard Mode for the Guardian Title (the obvious exceptions are Augury Rock and Tihark Orchard).
Although some missions can be easily cleared with Heroes/Henchmen (i.e. Imperial Sanctum, Abaddon's Gate), many of these missions demand strong human player input and strategies that AI is not capable of.
Are there enough people to easily fill 56 seperate districts with atleast 8 people with well-rounded builds?
That might be the straw which breaks Hard Mode's back: Not enough support.
The best example is Vizunah Square. As I'm sure you know, Vizunah Square consists of two human parties for a total of 16 people. Vizunah Square is near impossible in Hard Mode without 2 full human parties; just try it. And even then, safety is not guranteed.
Therefore, in order just to even do Vizunah Square, not only do you need 16 people, you need 16 coordinated people. How does ArenaNet expect us to do that?!
Even when you factor in Guilds and Alliances, it's very difficult to reliably get 8 people for a normal build (Not enough Monks), let alone 16.
The only solution is to make the Hard Mode Party Search Global and Cross Continent, otherwise it'll be too desolate to look for a group.
Too much content, but not enough people to do it. I wonder how ArenaNet tested Hard Mode...
Hard Mode: Are there even enough players?
Zinger314
IlikeGW
As far as long term... they need to fix badly bugged out hero/hench AI this update did because it will be too hard to find groups. So far it's not a huge problem though, although it's gone from the 5 minute range to getting groups to the 20 min range as I go along in order.
Malice Black
Time to put your guildies to good use 
Bryant Again
I'm hoping a solution is found in henchman and heroes. I can't play with guildies because of my hours of play.
Thunder79
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Originally Posted by Malice Black
Time to put your guildies to good use
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just consider this issue another factor that makes it "Hard Mode"...
It won't really be an issue a little while after it's introduction...we will be in the same position we were in before...people farming areas...people trying to complete missions. Concentrations of people in areas that require human groups. The most difficult areas will have people that can't get past the mission with just AI...so those people will be there to complete the mission with the other humans that are there. There will simply be more areas that need human groups. There will be fewer people farming as people try to complete the missions in hard mode for guardian.
Hockster
Where does it say Hard Mode is mandatory?
holababe
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
The best example is Vizunah Square. As I'm sure you know, Vizunah Square consists of two human parties for a total of 16 people. Vizunah Square is near impossible in Hard Mode without 2 full human parties; just try it. And even then, safety is not guranteed.
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Originally Posted by Gaile
A human Hard Mode team paired with an NPC team in the Vizunah Square mission could still achieve Master's level completion.
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Raaaaa
basically no, not really.
Even in normal mode some groups struggle to find a decent team. Those classes that enevitably won't be favoured for hard mode will probably never find enough partys to complete a campaign without guild/alliance help
Even in normal mode some groups struggle to find a decent team. Those classes that enevitably won't be favoured for hard mode will probably never find enough partys to complete a campaign without guild/alliance help
RSGashapon
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Originally Posted by Hockster
Where does it say Hard Mode is mandatory?
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Onarik Amrak
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
I'm hoping a solution is found in henchman and heroes. I can't play with guildies because of my hours of play.
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Winterclaw
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Originally Posted by Malice Black
Time to put your guildies to good use
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WTB large guild full of helpful people
WTB large guild full of helpful people
WTB large guild full of helpful people
WTB large guild full of helpful people
Series
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
The best example is Vizunah Square. As I'm sure you know, Vizunah Square consists of two human parties for a total of 16 people. Vizunah Square is near impossible in Hard Mode without 2 full human parties; just try it. And even then, safety is not guranteed.
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Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak
Find a new guild?
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Racthoh
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Originally Posted by holababe
According to Gaile
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Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
...but until then I am skeptical about what the testers were using to achieve this.
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wetsparks
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Originally Posted by holababe
A human Hard Mode team paired with an NPC team in the Vizunah Square mission could still achieve Master's level completion.
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fog_of_redoubt
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Originally Posted by Hockster
Where does it say Hard Mode is mandatory?
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I think there is a group of people that troll these forums to tell people what they dont need... You don't NEED green items, You don't NEED FOW armor, You don't NEED rare items, You don't NEED to do Hard Mode.
How in the world have you helped the OP by telling them that Hard Mode was not mandatory? Do you think they were somehow confused and thought they HAD to do Hard Mode or Gaile was gonna come and unistall GW?
Baroness Scarlett
Really, who cares about hard mode, doesn't even have new weapons and is all used maps. The same 3 campaings again with not incentives except tittles? I am not gonna spend hours for the same golds or greens that i have already.
No thanks.
No thanks.
Racthoh
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
What testers? (pwnt.)
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scottyboysn
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Originally Posted by Hockster
Where does it say Hard Mode is mandatory?
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scottyboysn
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Originally Posted by Hockster
Where does it say Hard Mode is mandatory?
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NJudson
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Originally Posted by Baroness Scarlett
Really, who cares about hard mode...
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So, back to the original topic of the thread I have to agree from my experience so far. I haven't seen hardly anyone looking to do Hard Mode in the few places in Ascalon that I've played. Consequently, I have had little luck using henchman in these areas. Especially since the party size is limited to just four.
I like the idea of the global Hard Mode party search, but considering about .000023% of the Guild Wars population actually uses that search tool for forming parties then it might not work too well.
Navaros
Are there enough players?
In my view the answer to that is yes - but you will actually never find them or be able to party with them, so them existing is a moot point.
Lumping Hard Mode districts together with Normal Mode districts severely limits the ability to find other players capable of playing in Hard Mode properly. Most Hard Mode players will see no one else is there to do Hard Mode with them, so they leave the town. Then when the other Hard Mode players come, the cycle repeats.
What should have happened was a Protector req. (yes there would be complainers about this but oh well, if they don't wanna earn Protector which is very easy to do, that's not anyone else's problem) to enter Hard Mode, and then separate the districts between Hard Mode and Normal Mode. That would have ensure that Hard Mode players are easily found, and ones who are completely incompetent at playing the game are (such players can be found in any district of the game since there are no restrictions on who can gain entrance) are for the most part filtered out already by the Protector req.
In my view the answer to that is yes - but you will actually never find them or be able to party with them, so them existing is a moot point.
Lumping Hard Mode districts together with Normal Mode districts severely limits the ability to find other players capable of playing in Hard Mode properly. Most Hard Mode players will see no one else is there to do Hard Mode with them, so they leave the town. Then when the other Hard Mode players come, the cycle repeats.
What should have happened was a Protector req. (yes there would be complainers about this but oh well, if they don't wanna earn Protector which is very easy to do, that's not anyone else's problem) to enter Hard Mode, and then separate the districts between Hard Mode and Normal Mode. That would have ensure that Hard Mode players are easily found, and ones who are completely incompetent at playing the game are (such players can be found in any district of the game since there are no restrictions on who can gain entrance) are for the most part filtered out already by the Protector req.
Mr_Cynical
No. Parties are hard enough to find at the moment - the novelty has already worn off. It's sad that the biggest expansion to PvE in ages could end up (through inability to use it beyond this weekend) doing nothing more than exposing how deeply flawed the NPC AI actually is.
Previously the henchmen got away with it because all they had to do was follow the human's orders to concentrate damage on one target - the same principle that humans relying on AI to beat superior numbers have used in every game since Command and Conquer.
We've had warning signs before - Prince Rurik being astonishingly foolish in the early Prophecies missions, more recently hero monks seeming remarkably reluctant to heal NPCs such as Togo. Unfortunately (not knowing about the difficulty of programming such things) I don't know if Anet will have the time to produce a workable hench/hero AI even as part of GW:EN (or whether it will be cost-effective for them to bother), but there are two things which a short time with hard mode has made clear:
Previously the henchmen got away with it because all they had to do was follow the human's orders to concentrate damage on one target - the same principle that humans relying on AI to beat superior numbers have used in every game since Command and Conquer.
We've had warning signs before - Prince Rurik being astonishingly foolish in the early Prophecies missions, more recently hero monks seeming remarkably reluctant to heal NPCs such as Togo. Unfortunately (not knowing about the difficulty of programming such things) I don't know if Anet will have the time to produce a workable hench/hero AI even as part of GW:EN (or whether it will be cost-effective for them to bother), but there are two things which a short time with hard mode has made clear:
- Hard mode will not work if it relies on PUGs - already these are disappearing
- The current henchman/hero AI is inadequate to cope with hard mode
Str0b0
While I have yet to attempt the elite content or the endgame missions I have yet to find hardmode all that more difficult. I mean sure the enemies are higher level but that's about it. It's virtually the same AI we have been dealing with. They just dumbed it down for normal mode and left it the same for hard mode and then upped monster levels. I'm not complaining by any means. My point is that I don't think numbers will be a problem since most of the content can still be hero/henched. So really only the elite and end game content will require players to fill out the team. That's my observation thus far though and I am used to running hero/hench 90% of the time.
lyra_song
I think, we as a community can solve this issue ourselves without Anet.
This is merely a matter of organizing.
I propose we set up a thread here on guru where we can do weekly meetings to do specific hardmode missions with people signing up to cover the harder missions with real people
This is merely a matter of organizing.
I propose we set up a thread here on guru where we can do weekly meetings to do specific hardmode missions with people signing up to cover the harder missions with real people
Silly Warrior
As an answer to Zinger's question, no, there aren't enough of us (being guild wars players all in general) to play both Hard Mode and normal, AND have people experienced enough to do the job. So yes, like Lyra said, we must take this problem into our own hands.
And I agree 100% with Lyra, a Hard Mode discussion and group organizing sub-thread would be a great idea, I'll suggest it to Inde...in the mods super secret forum chatting area.....
Great idea Lyra, really.
And I agree 100% with Lyra, a Hard Mode discussion and group organizing sub-thread would be a great idea, I'll suggest it to Inde...in the mods super secret forum chatting area.....
Great idea Lyra, really.
Dr Strangelove
It's really rough doing hard mode with heroes, especially when you snare a pile of charr and dunkoro decides to stand right in front of them and let them rage in his face. Hero and hench AI seems to have really gone down the toilet in the last update. Either that, or I just notice it more that I require more complex operations (Dammit Koss, I don't have time to find you a new target, I'm cycling bsurge, go find your own target and stop standing around)
There are plenty of players in the outposts spamming, the issue is that solid teams for hard mode need A)specific professions and B)Competent players
That being said, when I see a "stance tank" LFG HM, I pretty much decide I'd rather have my crippling slash Koss who will actually do something. Guildies are almost a necessity.
On that note, (WARNING: SHAMELESS SELF PLUG APPROACHING) I'd like to mention that I'm looking for a guild interested in organized play in hard mode, with light PvP on the side. PM me, IGN is over there on the left.
There are plenty of players in the outposts spamming, the issue is that solid teams for hard mode need A)specific professions and B)Competent players
That being said, when I see a "stance tank" LFG HM, I pretty much decide I'd rather have my crippling slash Koss who will actually do something. Guildies are almost a necessity.
On that note, (WARNING: SHAMELESS SELF PLUG APPROACHING) I'd like to mention that I'm looking for a guild interested in organized play in hard mode, with light PvP on the side. PM me, IGN is over there on the left.
Mysterial
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Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
It's really rough doing hard mode with heroes, especially when you snare a pile of charr and dunkoro decides to stand right in front of them and let them rage in his face. Hero and hench AI seems to have really gone down the toilet in the last update. Either that, or I just notice it more that I require more complex operations (Dammit Koss, I don't have time to find you a new target, I'm cycling bsurge, go find your own target and stop standing around)
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Kotetsu Rain
Some missions should seem easy enough to do with hero/henches BUT it's definitly not the case. I've tried Jokunar Diggins at least 12 times in HM and have had no luck whatsoever with hero's and henches. Though when I set out to PUG no one seems to be out there...
Definitly not enough
Definitly not enough
tweedledumb
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Originally Posted by Kotetsu Rain
Some missions should seem easy enough to do with hero/henches BUT it's definitly not the case. I've tried Jokunar Diggins at least 12 times in HM and have had no luck whatsoever with hero's and henches. Though when I set out to PUG no one seems to be out there...
Definitly not enough |
Series
Global hard mode search would just be amazing. Since you don't have to do the missions or vanquishing in any order, you can just see where the people are and join up!
dwc89
Problem already came up in guild tonight. Someone was asking for help getting through the last 2 missions in NF, one person asked if it was in Hard Mode - no it wasn't.
The response to it not being in HM was, " Normal Mode is a waste of time"
And this in a guild that is pretty good at stepping up to lend a hand.
We got them through the missions, a few of us stepped. Though it wasn't too bad, the players that needed through are not old hats at GW and doing those missions in HM would have been a nightmare with them.
Other things regarding heroes & hench have been pretty much covered. Personally I think they should fix the AI for those - vanquisher titles will be tougher to get than missions. Remember the Grenth quests , took forever and a day to get a group.
Anyway, I like HM so far. Will have to see how things go.
The response to it not being in HM was, " Normal Mode is a waste of time"
And this in a guild that is pretty good at stepping up to lend a hand.
We got them through the missions, a few of us stepped. Though it wasn't too bad, the players that needed through are not old hats at GW and doing those missions in HM would have been a nightmare with them.
Other things regarding heroes & hench have been pretty much covered. Personally I think they should fix the AI for those - vanquisher titles will be tougher to get than missions. Remember the Grenth quests , took forever and a day to get a group.
Anyway, I like HM so far. Will have to see how things go.
hellshound38
I got Guardian of Elona!!
2 to go! lol
2 to go! lol
Nekretaal
I dont think there are enough people.
I have had to hench/hero everything... when I would really love to have at least two humans in my groups other than myself (1 to control the melee & melee heroes, 1 to the defensive heroes and monks, and one to control the offensive casters and ranger).
I have had to hench/hero everything... when I would really love to have at least two humans in my groups other than myself (1 to control the melee & melee heroes, 1 to the defensive heroes and monks, and one to control the offensive casters and ranger).
Keithark
I have prot titles, all hero's runed up, all max gear, etc. I am online for 2-3 hrs from 1730 - ?? mon-thurs and random on weekends. I would like to get in group of exp'd players to do missions in HM. From the ones I have done so far the only tips I have is you need a live elly with wards for your hero/hench since they don't kite. You need a mm and ss, 2-3 monk hero's or 2 live monks (would be great to have a live bonder) depending on mission.. I am doing this on my tank and from what I have seen so is everyone else so that has been my problem with getting groups...no monks or casters in towns looking for groups. I am only doing this in elona then will go to factions..not sure it I even want to try tyria as I don't care for most of the missions there and there are about 2 times as many of them.
Mr_Cynical
No of course there aren't. There aren't even enough players in most places (ie outside the 'hubs' like Kaineng, Droks, LA etc.) to PUG in normal mode (which everyone has access to) so it really escapes me why Anet made such a significant part of the game depend on PUGs. Repeat after me, Anet, This game does not have the player numbers of WoW and therefore cannot support WoW-like PUG-reliant features.
XvArchonvX
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Originally Posted by Keithark
From the ones I have done so far the only tips I have is you need a live elly with wards for your hero/hench since they don't kite.
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Ritualistic Spankin
Like so many other people have stated, I also think that there just aren't enough people to get a good group going for Hard Mode, or from another perspective, sure there are plenty of people, but we lack the means to effectively get ahold of and communicate with them to form parties.
Separate districts would be nice, however a global Hard Mode search would be "off da heezie." I am working dilligently on vanquishing Tyria with my Rit(since Tyria is my one true love) and before I head out I always ask in local chat if anyone wants to join me....never get any responses. It hurts, and quite frankly causes me to lose some motivation to go vanquish in the hopes that if I don't vanquish that zone and try this town/outpost again later, someone will be here that wants to work on it with me.
Having to use hero's/henchies is not a cakewalk in every zone, especially since Dunkers and Talcum are about as intelligent as a sack of rocks after this update. Plus I don't know how others feel, but I do enjoy carrying conversation while vanquishing, call be crazy but it is somewhat comforting to know there is actually someone with a pulse actually helping me. It makes it more enjoyable.
Who knows, maybe my Ritualist smells or something in the outpost, my digi-BO could be cause of a lack of a group, meh, things may get better with future updates. I am also a big supporter of making continent specific threads to 'pitch' our characters for group for hard mode, maybe one for missions, and one for vanquishing.
-Aaron
Separate districts would be nice, however a global Hard Mode search would be "off da heezie." I am working dilligently on vanquishing Tyria with my Rit(since Tyria is my one true love) and before I head out I always ask in local chat if anyone wants to join me....never get any responses. It hurts, and quite frankly causes me to lose some motivation to go vanquish in the hopes that if I don't vanquish that zone and try this town/outpost again later, someone will be here that wants to work on it with me.
Having to use hero's/henchies is not a cakewalk in every zone, especially since Dunkers and Talcum are about as intelligent as a sack of rocks after this update. Plus I don't know how others feel, but I do enjoy carrying conversation while vanquishing, call be crazy but it is somewhat comforting to know there is actually someone with a pulse actually helping me. It makes it more enjoyable.
Who knows, maybe my Ritualist smells or something in the outpost, my digi-BO could be cause of a lack of a group, meh, things may get better with future updates. I am also a big supporter of making continent specific threads to 'pitch' our characters for group for hard mode, maybe one for missions, and one for vanquishing.
-Aaron
Ensign
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Originally Posted by Mr_Cynical
This game does not have the player numbers of WoW and therefore cannot support WoW-like PUG-reliant features.
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Basically there are more players in GW than on your WoW server, but you can communicate with a lot less people at a time in GW, so it effectively feels smaller. Good communication tools would solve this problem.
Of course, without support to the player market, any expanded communication system is going to turn into the de-facto trading system.
Peace,
-CxE