Best Elite in the Game

Elementer Masta

Elementer Masta

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

Texas

Leet Pwnzorxz of Pwnington [PWND]

P/

I'll go ahead and list by professions. This is from a PvE vantage point as well.

Warrior

[skill]Dragon Slash[/skill]

Monk

[skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill]

Mesmer

[skill]Energy Surge[/skill]

Elementalist

[skill]Savannah Heat[/skill]

Ranger

[skill]Barrage[/skill]

Necromancer

[skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill]

Assassin

[skill]Flashing Blades[/skill] or [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] Depends on whether or not Defense is key.

Ritualist

[skill]Ritual Lord[/skill] or [skill]Vengeful Was Khanhei[/skill] Depends on casual PvE or Farming

Dervish

[skill]Reaper's Sweep[/skill]

Paragon

[skill]Focused Anger[/skill]

Kaida the Heartless

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

N/

Best Elites:

Ranger: Distracting Shot

Monk: Reversal of Fortune

Elementalist: Stoneflesh Aura

Oh, wait a sec... :]

street peddler

street peddler

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

[skill]weapon of remedy[/skill] is a really good elite..

Sword

Sword

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2006

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamochit
[skill]light of deliverance[/skill]
the obvious answer...

DeBron

DeBron

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2006

MD

Warrior

[skill]Eviscerate[/skill]

Monk

[skill]Healer's Boon[/skill][skill]Divert Hexes[/skill]

Mesmer

[skill]Energy Surge[/skill][skill]Mantra of Recovery[/skill]

Elementalist

[skill]Savannah Heat[/skill]

Ranger

[skill]Barrage[/skill][skill]Burning Arrow[/skill]

Necromancer

[skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill][skill]Blood is Power[/skill]

Assassin

[skill]Shadow Prison[/skill][skill]Way of the Assassin[/skill]

Ritualist

[skill]Ritual Lord[/skill][skill]Weapon of Remedy[/skill][skill]Offering of Spirit[/skill]

Dervish

[skill]Reaper's Sweep[/skill][skill]Vow of Strength[/skill]

Paragon

[skill]Angelic Bond[/skill]

Kris

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2005

UK

Kirins of Holy Light

Mo/R

I'd have to agree with LoD, its the perfect skill to take to places like the final battle of Nightfall for obvious reasons if you have ever been there. It's basically "Heal Party" but spammable and low-cost.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris
I'd have to agree with LoD, its the perfect skill to take to places like the final battle of Nightfall for obvious reasons if you have ever been there. It's basically "Heal Party" but spammable and low-cost. [skill]Weapon of Remedy[/skill] > [skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill]

Kris

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2005

UK

Kirins of Holy Light

Mo/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
[skill]Weapon of Remedy[/skill] > [skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill] I beg to differ...

One requires 40 energy to place on every team member, one takes 5 energy.
One takes 29.25 seconds to place on every team member, one takes 1 second.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris
I beg to differ...

One requires 40 energy to place on every team member, one takes 5 energy.
One takes 29.25 seconds to place on every team member, one takes 1 second. lawl

use WoR against Abaddon then come back here m'kay?

moko

moko

??uo??o??

Join Date: May 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
lawl

use WoR against Abaddon then come back here m'kay? WoR requires your target to get HIT to lose the condition, and i can't say your monks are often targets by the few mobs that are around, besides, ever heard off draw conditions or extingwhateverthenamewas?

you need some actual heal in that mission, not prot, and WoR is considered prot, it heals on hit, not when you need it.

Tab

Tab

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Oct 2006

Under a bridge

Team Quitter [QQ]

Mo/

LoD>WoR. That will be all.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

lawl u ppl mack me sad

Try read the post I quoted m'kay?

Didn't get it? Here I'll bold it for you

Quote:
I'd have to agree with LoD, its the perfect skill to take to places like the final battle of Nightfall for obvious reasons if you have ever been there. It's basically "Heal Party" but spammable and low-cost. Get it now m'kay or must I explain some more?

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

N/

so they dont have the same use. one is for healing, the other for damaging ( from what you said before, i understand you use it for that- if its for condition removing, bring sogolon and take a better elite)
no point in comparing them.

[skill]eviscerate[/skill]
I know, so common but heck I so like the noise it makes when you activate it.
MoR, blessed light, LoD, so many...

"lol u so uber 7 min wtf u pwn us all" that sure makes wor > lod

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

My bad, I guess not everyone knows about killing Abaddon HM in less than 7 minutes

Stormlord Alex

Stormlord Alex

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Beyond the Forest of Doom, past the Cavern of Agony... on Kitten & Puppy Island

Soul of Melandru [sOm]

W/E

OH? Haven't posted here yet?
Well, time for postcount+1...
Bearing in mind my 'favourite' elites aren't always the 'best'... they're just the ones I enjoy using most ^_^

Warrior
[skill]earth shaker[/skill] rawr.

Elementalist
... straight tie between [skill]blinding surge[/skill] and [skill]mind blast[/skill] ... pissing off 'sins or infinite energy? :X

Ranger
[skill]crippling shot[/skill] Ooohh, yeah.

Mesmer
[skill]expel hexes[/skill] 'nuff said. Heck, I run this on paragons and ritualists...

Necromancer
[skill]spoil victor[/skill] "Veni, vidi, PWNed"

Monk
[skill]signet of judgment[/skill] Yeah, well... Shoot me.

Assassin
[skill]siphon strength[/skill] without a doubt. SP is lame.

Ritualist
[skill]wanderlust[/skill] What can I say? I'm a bitch

Dervish
[skill]avatar of melandru[/skill] ... 'cuz I like the dance <3 If it didn't do that... Wounding Strike.

Paragon
[skill]"it's just a flesh wound."[/skill] Python fan, naturally.

zling

zling

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

[skill]life barrier[/skill] and [skill]angelic bond[/skill]
bonders PWN you, especially in PvE farming

acidic

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokone
WoR requires your target to get HIT to lose the condition, and i can't say your monks are often targets by the few mobs that are around, besides, ever heard off draw conditions or extingwhateverthenamewas?

you need some actual heal in that mission, not prot, and WoR is considered prot, it heals on hit, not when you need it. wow... have you actually used wor or for that matter any reverse damages?

Run in kill the side monoliths (4 of them).

Run back to the center

spam reversal of damage, wor etc. etc...

Set monk on heal area

wait couple min

abbadons dies

moko

moko

??uo??o??

Join Date: May 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by acidic
wow... have you actually used wor or for that matter any reverse damages?

Run in kill the side monoliths (4 of them).

Run back to the center

spam reversal of damage, wor etc. etc...

Set monk on heal area

wait couple min

abbadons dies make sense please. nothing of the crap you just said really made sense.

Abaddon doesn't attack, how are you supposed to damage him with WoR?

Heal area? lol...i'm sorry, but wtf?!

my point was, that when mobs don't attack your dazed target (monk), he doesn't lose a condition, and if there's no mobs around and you fight abaddon only you're totally useless. if you get hit, yay for tanking monks?

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

N/

^the skill that inflicts daze to everyone in your party is used by abaddon, therefore he takes damage when using it on a target with wor.

but farming abaddon isn't enough a reason to make wor > lod.

lacasner

lacasner

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokone
make sense please. nothing of the crap you just said really made sense.

Abaddon doesn't attack, how are you supposed to damage him with WoR?

Heal area? lol...i'm sorry, but wtf?!

my point was, that when mobs don't attack your dazed target (monk), he doesn't lose a condition, and if there's no mobs around and you fight abaddon only you're totally useless. if you get hit, yay for tanking monks? You can practically stand afk and beat abaddon lolz.

moko

moko

??uo??o??

Join Date: May 2006

haha, didn't know. i'm sorry then, feel free to call me pve noob. ;P

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbobusa
^the skill that inflicts daze to everyone in your party is used by abaddon, therefore he takes damage when using it on a target with wor.

but farming abaddon isn't enough a reason to make wor > lod. I said WoR > LoD ONLY because the person I quoted said that LoD was the best elite against Abaddon. Obviously that is incorrect

Kris

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2005

UK

Kirins of Holy Light

Mo/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
lawl

use WoR against Abaddon then come back here m'kay? Ok, blue. I'm trying to understand you on this WoR subject, but one thing I don't understand is this: WoR has 3 second recharge, and lasts for 8 seconds. This means you can cast it on only 3 people before its run out on the first. 5 people are unprotected by WoR and dying or dazed. Do I assume you use 2 or 3 monks with WoR, and pre-determine who casts on who, to achieve what you describe?

More on subject, an oddball suggestion possibly, but a 0.25 sec cast time, 2 second recharge, 5 energy monk heal has impressed me lately.
[skill]glimmer of light[/skill]

Not everyones cup of tea, but its spammability and fast cast time works very well to counter spikes in combination with medium-heavy prot.

Another elite I would regard as best in its class, is for the warrior. Non-stop skills, the only thing that will stop you is a mursaat tower. Creates very high DPS via your skills.
[skill]Warrior's Endurance[/skill]

My Necro loves the chance to use this in organised PvP/GvG, and I think its probably the best and least used curse.
[skill]Lingering Curse[/skill]

And finally my mesmer can't stop using [skill]Panic[/skill] and [skill]Ineptitude[/skill] both on par I would say for their particular uses.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris
Ok, blue. I'm trying to understand you on this WoR subject, but one thing I don't understand is this: WoR has 3 second recharge, and lasts for 8 seconds. This means you can cast it on only 3 people before its run out on the first. 5 people are unprotected by WoR and dying or dazed. Do I assume you use 2 or 3 monks with WoR, and pre-determine who casts on who, to achieve what you describe? Go into hard mode and bring Tahlk, Dunk and Razah. You go /rt and bring Weapon of Remedy. For Tahk and Dunk, give them Reversal of Damage and WoR and max the attributes for them, same with Razah

For the hencies, bring some with high damage (like Devonna or w/e)

Enter the mission and go and kill the groups of Graven Monoliths at Abaddon's hands, once you have killed them go back near the bridge and stay there

From then on, just SPAM Reversal of Damage and Weapon of Remedy

Watch Abaddon's life bar

Blkout

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
Go into hard mode and bring Tahlk, Dunk and Razah. You go /rt and bring Weapon of Remedy. For Tahk and Dunk, give them Reversal of Damage and WoR and max the attributes for them, same with Razah

For the hencies, bring some with high damage (like Devonna or w/e)

Enter the mission and go and kill the groups of Graven Monoliths at Abaddon's hands, once you have killed them go back near the bridge and stay there

From then on, just SPAM Reversal of Damage and Weapon of Remedy

Watch Abaddon's life bar This is a known cheat and is posted on the GW Wiki sites. You don't need WoR to kill Abaddon this way, only RoD is needed. WoR might speed up the process but isn't required to kill him using this cheat. This is not a good justification for using WoR.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkout
You don't need WoR to kill Abaddon this way, only RoD is needed.
Okay then, you might enjoy hanging around with Abaddon longer but I prefer to get the fight done as soon as possible

Quote: WoR might speed up the process but isn't required to kill him using this cheat. Wow you're a genius aren't you? Can you explain to me WHY
you wouldn't want to kill Abaddon as fast as possible? With your incredibly intelligent line of thinking warriors are not required to go beyond 12 in their weapon attribute (and Rangers, sins, gons and dervishs for that matter) because they can still kill things with lvl 12 instead of lvl 16. Necros and eles don't need to bring big hitting spells, firestorm and flare is enough because if you attack them long enough with it, you will eventually kill it. Searing flames and spiteful spirit might speed up the process of killing something but it isn't required to kill something.

Quote:
This is not a good justification for using WoR. READ MY POST CAREFULLY

Quote:
I said WoR > LoD ONLY because the person I quoted said that LoD was the best elite against Abaddon. Obviously that is incorrect

Blkout

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
Okay then, you might enjoy hanging around with Abaddon longer but I prefer to get the fight done as soon as possible



Wow you're a genius aren't you? Can you explain to me WHY you wouldn't want to kill Abaddon as fast as possible? With your incredibly intelligent line of thinking warriors are not required to go beyond 12 in their weapon attribute (and Rangers, sins, gons and dervishs for that matter) because they can still kill things with lvl 12 instead of lvl 16. Necros and eles don't need to bring big hitting spells, firestorm and flare is enough because if you attack them long enough with it, you will eventually kill it. Searing flames and spiteful spirit might speed up the process of killing something but it isn't required to kill something.



READ MY POST CAREFULLY I certainly am a genius compared to your limited mental ability. You're comparing two entirely different skills. LoD is certainly a better skill to have against Abaddon when actually FIGHTING him and not cheating. If you choose to go the cheating route, WoR isn't NEEDED to do the job. It's RoD that's needed to get the job done, WoR only speeds up the process. WoR is a nice bonus, but certainly not a requirement. Had you made the argument for RoD, I might have sided with you, even though the cheat is ridiculous.

Don't get pissy because everyone thinks you're an idiot, sometimes there's some truth in what others see.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkout
I certainly am a genius compared to your limited mental ability. You're comparing two entirely different skills.
Lawl

Using the exploit (look what cheat is in the dictionary) can reduce the time taken to beat Abaddon by what 10 minutes? You still haven't given me a reason why not to use it

Quote:
LoD is certainly a better skill to have against Abaddon when actually FIGHTING him and not cheating.
Lawl again. Why would someone want to take the hard longer route to the same reward? Look at Deep runs. How many groups go with a proper balanced group and fight him and both his spawned units together? As far as I know, most groups prefer to do the KD trick (making it a lot easier).

Isn't that cheating like this? You're taking advantage of the games mechanic to make it easier to reach a goal, in this case you're avoiding the fight against the spawned units.

What about Urgoz? People were exploiting the fact that the spawned plants interacted with EoE which basically meant that Urgoz was mainly killed by his minions. That's exploiting a game mechanic to make it a lot easier.

Quote: If you choose to go the cheating route, WoR isn't NEEDED to do the job. It's RoD that's needed to get the job done, WoR only speeds up the process. Again use some common sense. WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO TAKE THE LONGER ROUTE FOR THE SAME REWARDS?. Sure the first few times it might be 'fun' to just fight Abaddon normally but obviously would you want to go through the fight every single time when they can make it a lot easier on themselves and save themselves the hassle?

Seriously, why not bring WoR? You totally avoided my point that with you logic, it's not needed to mac attributes or use max damage weapons since you can still kill things. If you're going to use the exploit then you might as well get it done as fast as possible.

Quote:
WoR is a nice bonus, but certainly not a requirement. Had you made the argument for RoD, I might have sided with you, even though the cheat is ridiculous. God you're so hypocritical it's sickening. LoD is a nice bonus but not a requirement. Heal party is fine to cover the damage.

See how I'm using your logic here?

Quote:
Don't get pissy because everyone thinks you're an idiot, sometimes there's some truth in what others see. Lawl again. Everyone thinks I'm a idiot? The fact that I'm actually right and that a WoR + RoD is the best/quickest way of beating Abaddon makes me the idiot? Please explain, I don't see how having the quickest and safest way of beating Abaddon makes me an idiot.

ctbear

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2006

Mo/

One for each profession
[skill]Earth Shaker[/skill]
[skill]Mantra of Recovery[/skill]
[skill]Searing Flames[/skill]
[skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill]
[skill]Barrage[/skill] or [skill]Burning Arrow[/skill]
[skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] or [skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill]
[skill]Wanderlust[/skill]
[skill]Wounding Strike[/skill]
[skill]Song of Restoration[/skill]
and of course
[skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill]

Raffine

Raffine

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2007

California

Ricebox Heroes [Rice]

A/

Just going to list the ones I use the most.. ^^;
[skill]Eviscerate[/skill] or [skill]Dragon Slash[/skill]
[skill]Mantra of Recovery[/skill]
[skill]Blinding Surge[/skill] or [skill]Searing Flames[/skill]
[skill]Spoil Victor[/skill]
[skill]Burning Arrow[/skill] or [skill]Crippling Shot[/skill]
[skill]Moebius Strike[/skill]
[skill]Vengeful Was Khanhei[/skill] (Farming..)
[skill]Wounding Strike[/skill]
[skill]Song of Restoration[/skill]
[skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] or [skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill]

Crom The Pale

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

One of the most usefull yet underrated Elites for a war is Defy Pain, 300+hp and 20 armor for only 6 adren means you can keep this up almost full time.

Most people go for the quick dmg skills for a war and ignore the fact that by improving the wars survivability they can prolong his high dps with regular attacks dealing out excelent spike dmg with non-elite skills


As for Best Elite in the Game, I would go with the most requested Elite and that would be Spiteful Spirit by a long margine!

Other under rated elites would be: Glass Arrows - Ranger
Healer's Boon - Monk
Ineptitude - Mesmer
Water Trident - Elementalist
Caretaker's Charge - Ritualist
Siphon Strength - Assasin
Song of Restoration - Paragon
Vow of Strength - Dervish


Just my take on things, but then I'm a war that uses Meteor Shower

Div

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

WoR is only better than LoD for Abaddon if you use the lame way to beat him. Otherwise LoD > WoR when you're actually doing the mission and not exploiting the gameplay.

Trylo

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

[Here] | CKOD

E/R

lets go with...

[skill]Shadow Prison[/skill] ...i dont play sins much
[skill]Icy Shackles[/skill][skill]Savannah Heat[/skill][skill]Blinding Surge[/skill][skill]Unsteady Ground[/skill] <-- fav prof
[skill]Wounding Strike[/skill]
[skill]Defensive Anthem[/skill] ... dont play paragons much either
[skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill] dont even try to tell me LoD is better.
[skill]Power Block[/skill][skill]Psychic Distraction[/skill][skill]Panic[/skill][skill]Migraine[/skill] theyre all just so helpful!
[skill]Lingering Curse[/skill] is cool [skill]Reaper's Mark[/skill] i dunno really
[skill]Burning Arrow[/skill]...[skill]Enraged Lunge[/skill] <-- more fun
[skill]Offering of Spirit[/skill][skill]Reclaim Essence[/skill]
[skill]Crippling Slash[/skill] ... dont play wars much

(my point being there is no best elite for every class)

yesitsrob

yesitsrob

Elite Guru

Join Date: Sep 2005

Manchester, England

SMS/Victrix

I think LoD is pretty shit in HM. Except on Heroes. SoD + HB reallytbh.

Robbins

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2006

HEVN

Mo/Me

About the whole LoD / WoR thing... I really don't believe it is neccessary/appropriate to involve characterizations of other peoples intellect in these discussions. I think you can make your point without calling names. I for one enjoyed reading about the WoR use in the Abaddon mission. I also think games are about having fun. Each individual persons definition of fun. So some people like doing it one way and some people like doing it another way. Anet rocks. Both people are happy for different reasons. I know someone who likes Diablo all hacked where his character has 10,000 health and does 45-90 million damage in one hit. Hey if he likes it that way, he is having fun, that is a good thing. So what if its not your cup of tea. I say, to each their own. Why take anyone's fun away. Lets all just be friends and hope everyone has fun. Their own fun. My idea of fun is for me. Your idea of fun is for you. Let them have their fun just like you would like them to let you have your fun. Everyone have fun. Thats what the game is all about.

As for my answer to the Best Elite: It is based on the one I have the most FUN with. Which is SS. I like to combine it with Mark of Pain and watch as yellow 37's and 42's fill up the screen.

Divyn

Divyn

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Nov 2006

Netherlands

Organised Spam [OS]

W/D

LoD and Shadowprison lawl

Div

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

Godmode avatar. Most commonly used elite skill in the July tourney along with LoD, the second best elite.

haggus71

haggus71

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2007

FotS

For elites, gotta go with BHA. It works great in so many situations, and my heroes use it like a champ.

As far as the whole LoD/WoR thang.....If it is allowed in the game, and you aren't modding the code of the game itself, it isn't cheating. Cheating is defined as using something unfair and against the rules of a game to achieve your goal, like a spitball or sandpaper in pitching. It's just a faster way of doing it. I haven't seen a "Rulebook for Beating Abaddon" link out there. Have you?

Marty Silverblade

Marty Silverblade

Administrator

Join Date: Jun 2006

Hmmm, here's my list for generally useful elites, because picking one elite out of over 100 is impossible

[card]Dragon Slash[/card][card]Crippling Slash[/card][card]Eviscerate[/card]
[card]Barrage[/card][card]Burning Arrow[/card]
[card]Spoil Victor[/card][card]Reaper's Mark[/card]
[card]Light of Deliverance[/card][card]Zealous Benediction[/card]
[card]Power Block[/card][card]Migraine[/card]
[card]Searing Flames[/card][card]Savannah Heat[/card][card]Blinding Surge[/card][card]Elemental Attunement[/card]
[card]Moebius Strike[/card][card]Assassin's Promise[/card]
[card]Reclaim Essence[/card][card]Offering of Spirit[/card]
[card]Wounding Strike[/card][card]Avatar of Balthazar[/card][card]Avatar of Melandru[/card]
[card]Song of Restoration[/card]

Painbringer

Painbringer

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

Minnesota

Black Widows of Death

W/Mo

[skill]Shield of Judgment[/skill] or [skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill]

They have opened sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooo many exploits of the game