Henchmen Skill update suggestions

Since Gaile has suggested that they would welcome comments on henchmen skill updates, I thought I would get a suggestion thread going. Heres my ideas. Please note that these suggestions are specifically for HM. Henchmen are completely fine as they are for NM and dont need any changes.

Mhenlo and other healing monks:

[skill]orison of healing[/skill][skill]words of comfort[/skill][skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill][skill]light of deliverance[/skill][skill]signet of rejuvenation[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]renew life[/skill]

Khim

[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]shield of absorption[/skill][skill]gift of health[/skill][skill]zealous benediction[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]spirit bond[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]renew life[/skill]

Lina

[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]shielding hands[/skill][skill]gift of health[/skill][skill]shield of regeneration[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]rebirth[/skill]

I would suggest that these 3 monks are made available as henchmen in every 8 man outpost in the game for HM.

Sogolon

[skill]signet of synergy[/skill][skill]aria of restoration[/skill][skill]ballad of restoration[/skill][skill]cautery signet[/skill][skill]aria of zeal[/skill][skill]hexbreaker aria[/skill][skill]leader's comfort[/skill][skill]signet of return[/skill]

Herta and all earth henchmen

[skill]Ebon Hawk[/skill][skill]stoning[/skill][skill]glowstone[/skill][skill]sandstorm[/skill][skill]ward against melee[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]earth attunement[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Cynn - Specifically for HM

[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill]Mark of rodgort[/skill][skill]searing heat[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]fire attunement[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Domination Henchmen No one in particular, just a generic build that would be great for domination hench

[skill]cry of frustration[/skill][skill]energy burn[/skill][skill]energy surge[/skill][skill]backfire[/skill][skill]empathy[/skill][skill]diversion[/skill][skill]drain enchantment[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Interuption Henchman This is an idea to make those elly and rit bosses a lot easier to beat.

[skill]power spike[/skill][skill]power leak[/skill][skill]power drain[/skill][skill]signet of humility[/skill][skill]migraine[/skill][skill]frustration[/skill][skill]drain enchantment[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Ranger Hench Two possible builds that would be nice to have on ranger hench:

[skill]barrage[/skill][skill]marauder's shot[/skill][skill]hunter's shot[/skill][skill]crossfire[/skill][skill]savage shot[/skill][skill]distracting shot[/skill][skill]throw dirt[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

[skill]burning arrow[/skill][skill]screaming shot[/skill][skill]hunter's shot[/skill][skill]crossfire[/skill][skill]determined shot[/skill][skill]savage shot[/skill][skill]healing spring[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

I will add more Ideas as I make them, feel free to post your own.

Might wanna say, "NF only", because it kinda makes sense for the skills to be core unless you state a specific chapter.

You really like [skill=text]Dismiss Condition[/skill] don't you? :P

Overall, its better than what they currently have. :/

The problem is that you need to suggest skills that are for that chapter, you can put core+chapter skills, can't use skills from factions for nightfall or prophecies and vice versa.

Well, seeing that the suggestions are primarily for HM, I dont really care about using cross campaign skills. This is what I would use on my heroes, and since I cant use 7 of them now, I would like to see equally usefull builds on the henchmen.

Well its one skill that they actually use really well. Mhenlo really wouldnt need it, but there arent any other healing skills that I would rather have. Channeling would be nice on each one too, but Im sure that will never happen.

Point is, continuity needs to remain - core + campaign skills only.


Also, as great of an idea as this is, this really should be in Sardelac, I would think.

Well my point is that WoH doesnt quite cut it for healing in HM for any campain, neither do the terrible healer bars in Factions with 3 10e spammable skills.

Hi Bhavv

Interesting to hear. We were discussing this earlier this month in my "Henchmen Hardmode Skill Challenge" thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10154009

But it petered out. Good to see Gaile welcomes the discussion.

I'll bring up one of my rejigged builds from there, as part of getting this thread's ball rolling. My rules were:


1) Skills can only come from Core and Campaign Specific for the henchmen (eg: Odurra can only use Core and Nightfall Mesmer skills).

2) If you can build an effective skill set for a Guild Wars wide used Henchman (eg: Mehnlo) with JUST Core skills, extra kudos!

3) You have all 8 skill slots to utilize.

4) An Elite is not a prerequisite, but if you DO use one, it can't be too over powered in the interests of balance (eg: Devona can't have "Dwarven Hammer Stance").

5) Balance is the key. The skill set can't be so overpowered that it negates all need to use PUGs/Heroes.

6) Each Henchman can only be their core profession, no secondaries.

Henchman: Odurra
Campaign: Nightfall
Original Skill Set: (Level 20) Cry of Frustration, Empathy, Ether Feast, Leech Signet, Shatter Hex, Rez Signet
New Hard Mode Skill Set:
[skill]Cry of Frustration[/skill] [skill]Empathy[/skill] [skill]Shatter Enchantment[/skill] [skill]Mantra of Concentration[/skill] [skill]Leech Signet[/skill] [skill]Energy Surge[/skill] [skill]Ether Phantom[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Serenity, I am not abiding to rules that make no sense. The simple fact is that henchmen should be able to have equal skillbars to players / heroes, at least in HM.

In NM, all the henchmen are fine and can be kept as they are, but my specific interest is to suggest ideas to make henchmen suitable for HM.

How can they not make sense? Odurra, for example, has never been to Cantha or Tyria, ergo only has access to skills from Elona and "Core".

It would be like if you or I only owned Nightfall, and not the other two chapters.

It doesnt make sense to restrict skills by campain for HM because imho it is simply not possible to play the game in HM without using cross campiagn skills.

I urge you to try and beat all the missions in tryria on HM using just the henchmen, and only using Proph/core skills on any character. Maybe then you will see the point.

And did the rules originally say that enemies could attack, move and cast spells 50% faster? If the rules were allowed to be tweaked for enemies on HM then I cant see why they cant be for henchmen.

It is not against the rules to make a Searing Flames elementalist or a Zealous Benediction monk and play those in Prophecies or Cantha, so I dont see why henchmen are still limited to skill bars that simply do not work in HM.

Well why dont you then? This is a suggestion, just as asking for 7 heroes was, there is nothing against the rules for making suggestions to make the game better for everyone. Everyone doubted, and it has been confimed that 7 heroes will not be allowed in the game, but there are still many players that would like to see this feature added, just as much as im sure they would appreciate these skill changes on henchmen. If we cant have 7 heroes, then at least make henchmen as good as them.

bhavv, you don't make, nor can you change the rules, sorry to say. I seriously doubt Anet would allow the henchmen to carry skills from other chapters they're not exclusive to. If you choose to ignore that, all of this is in vain.

Just imagine the henchmen as other players that only own that one campaign. how would you direct them to build their bar (of course, also bearing in mind they can't have secondaries)? It's restrictive, but surely we can come up with something better than what they have now...

The Devs are very adamant that this game, and its skills, are all about BALANCE.

Say it with me. BALANCE.

This for Prophecies, healer
[skill]orison of healing[/skill] [skill]Healing Seed[/skill] [skill]Dwayna's kiss[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]word of healing[/skill] [skill]restore life[/skill]

Prophecies Protection:
[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill] [skill]shielding hands[/skill] [skill]Protective spirit[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]restore condition[/skill] [skill]aegis[/skill] [skill]rebirth[/skill]

Factions, healer:
[skill]orison of healing[/skill] [skill]Healing Seed[/skill] [skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]Jamei's Gaze[/skill] [skill]healing light[/skill] or [skill]blessed light[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Factions, Protection:
[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill] [skill]shielding hands[/skill] [skill]Protective spirit[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill] [skill]aegis[/skill] [skill]rebirth[/skill]

Nightfall, Healer:
[skill]orison of healing[/skill] [skill]Healing Seed[/skill] [skill]words of comfort[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill] [skill]Renew Life[/skill]

Nightfall, Protection:
[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill] [skill]shielding hands[/skill] [skill]Protective spirit[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] [skill]aegis[/skill] [skill]rebirth[/skill]

Little Thom:
[skill]frenzy[/skill] [skill]healing signet[/skill]

And? The skills are *Supposedly* all balanced, if they werent then they would be nerfed or not included in the game. Unfortunately, imo the WoH and RC builds luna suggested would not be good enough for HM in tyria on a 2 monk backline, for completing every mission and vanquishing every area, which is the problem. To BALANCE HM and to make it possible to beat, you NEED cross campain skills.

Have you even tried playing the game in HM? I seriously doubt that you have from your comment on balancing the game.

Luckily henchmen are not our only options. There are other players, ya know. A group of 8 players with only prophecies + cors skills will surely have no problem beating everything in Prophecies in HM. Can't get a full team? No problem, Anet will then urge you to purchase Nightfall (as companies do - suggesting more of their products) and make some hero + henchie teams. Then, if you're good enough (it is Hard mode, after all), you will be able to do it.

First of all, you're compairing enemy PvE monsters with allied characters that are supposed to mimic and replace other real people. Of course the monsters are going to be stronger, faster - but they're also not allowed skills from other campaigns! They need to be tougher, but even they are bound by that rule, so we're left with the increase in speed, rather than diversity in skills.

Right, we can only do that because we are players that happen to own those campaigns. We're not bound by that rule, we're bound by what we can afford. The henchies need to be bound by the rule, since they aren't buying campaigns anytime soon.

I disagree about making henchmen as good as heroes. That's the point to the heroes in the first place. After all, they take drops like henchmen, but we still have to provide all their gear. If the henchmen are just as good, why bother playing with heroes ever again - and why bother buying stuff for them? Regardless, I do agree with making them better, and I will come up with some ideas on my own since I really like this idea. I just think it needs to be within those certain guidelines in order for the Devs to consider them at all.

Really? Then how come that every time I took a WoH/healing breeze human monk with only prophecies into HM missions we ended up dying and failing the mission untill he quit? And that after I took players with the cross campaign skill sets I suggested we managed to complete it with no problems? he mission I quote is Sanctum Cay which is full of mass AoE damage, and is literally screaming for LoD to be used as the elite of choice.

You learn new things in GW everyday, and it was only last week that I learnt that I will no longer accept a PuG for HM that cannot play the build, or a build close enough to the one I specify. Its not only on monks, it applies to builds like the W/R I had earlier today for a HM mission with troll ungent and dolyak signet. I never use tanks in HM and it goes completely fine. I am not a harsh player, I make suggestions to those that join my group for what builds they should use and no more. If they cant play them then I suggest they obtain those skills before playing HM, which usually ends up with insults being thrown at me for kicking them.

TY so much for that, I really needed a laugh. I think warrior hench just need removing from the game altogher anyway.

Heal Party instead of Healing Breeze. There, problem solved. (well that and any number of other factors like them or any and everyone else in the party doing stupid things can cause failure)

Gaile was being facetious about the idea for suggestions for new henchman skillbars.

Any henchmen improvements which would make them on an equal skillbar and capability to a somewhat normal player would "disincent someone from playing in a party with other people." (that being Gaile's exact quote against the use of 7 Heroes)

So any henchman change is inherently futile. Gaile likes conga. Henchmen don't conga. Therefore, Gaile doesn't like Henchmen.

True enough now that I went back and read the post beyond the first line, but correct me if im wrong, they did state when HM was intoduced that it was being balanced to be henchable, which it clearly isnt.

I am aware that the builds I am suggesting will never make it onto henchmen, just as I am aware we will never get 7 heroes, I am just pointing what does work in HM. Well, except for my monk ideas as they dont have channeling

But in all seriousness, I doubt that simply reskilling henchmen to something even slightly more usefull is a lot les demanding on the development team then it was to make all the other changes they have.

Anyway, my bedtime now.

Give Kihm Shield of Regeneration as well, she doesn't use Zealous Benediction correctly.

Get rid of [skill]Orison of Healing[/skill] from all the healer henchies, they spam that all day long and it sucks.

I don't see how any healer can exist without [skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill]. In Factions give them [skill]Healing Whisper[/skill] if Prophecies skills aren't available, as henchies like to clump the effect will almost always be nonexistant.

You really like Holy Veil don't you? Why no love for Smite Hex?

Mhenlo have at least one NF skill in NF outposts...

But... better than that... I would make them have 2..5 builds available... and you could see them and choose them by talking to them or in the Partuy Search panel...

It would be even better if you had more options the more campaigns you own...

You have Prophecies... Cynn has two builds... one cor and one Prophecies...
You get Factions... and she gets one more...
You get Nightfall and she gets Savannah Heat or Searing Flames... XD...

That would be great...

Good thread, and some excellent ideas here. However, I do agree that henchmen should carry native skills. I don't think we can pick and choose skills from all campaigns for any indivual campaign's henchies.

(BTW, my request was genuine, and intended with good will.)

If it isn't any trouble can we get some improvements on normal mode henchmen.I would really like to see Stefan and Thom get some better damaging skill in their weapons mastery line.It would be nice to see Lina have guardian over shielding hands as well as mend ailment.

How about the possibility to simply customise the henchmens skill bars as we like?

what if we gave HM henchies secondaries? There are some nice Mo/Me builds out there to toss in a little interrupt/energy management.

I must agree with Gaile on this one. If you make the Hench as good as people, then what's the incentive to play with humans? This is an MMO so it needs to be multiplayer. I also agree with the native skills rule. It would be weird to see Cynn with Searing Flames. Just plain weird. I know HM is hard, but that's why they called it Hard Mode. They could have called it 'Slightly More Challenging Mode' but then no one would play it.

I cant find Humans to play what I want to, when I want to in the game, particularly for HM. I still thouroughly enjoy playing PVP, elite missions, and FoW/UW with my guild/alliance. However, finding people in PVE for HM missions has become a chore.

Hmm... While I'm in favour of maybe just tweaking some of the hench bars a bit, to remove redundant skills (Seriously... Practiced Stance on a ranger with KINDLE!?) I don't want to see them with uber-leet haXx pwnage builds, like SF Cynn... It'd just make PvE even easier and further kill the already ailing PuG

Also, I'm not a fan of Veil on AI... They can't seem to get the hang of it - I'd say Smite instead, same cost/recharge, effectively the same, yet the AI can handle it.

If you care to read the opening sentance, you will see that these suggestions are for HM only, not 'easy' mode. I am not suggesting changing skill bars in normal mode because there is no need.

Whenever I use veil on my heroes they use it just fine. Though smite hex might be a nicer alternative as the AI uses both skills in the same manner, and it has sme extra damage output.

That would be a dream come true if it could happen.

What about henchies available in multiple chapters? (i.e. Cynn, Devona, Eve, Aidan, and to a lesser extent Mhenlo)

While SerenitySilverstar posted the link on the first page already, I'd like to re-remind everyone of the thread which had great ideas for Hard Mode henchmen: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10154009

Let's try giving a buff to Stefan shall we?
His original skillset is this:
[skill]"Charge!"[/skill][skill]Balanced Stance[/skill][skill]Griffon's Sweep[/skill][skill]Healing Signet[/skill][skill]Power Attack[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

I think it should be this:
[skill]"Charge!"[/skill][skill]Sever Artery[/skill][skill]Gash[/skill][skill]Bull's Strike[/skill][skill]Final Thrust[/skill][skill]Shield Stance[/skill][skill]Healing Signet[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Reasoning: Of Core+Prophecies, Sword warriors really only had two elites worth choosing from: "Charge!" and Bull's Charge. Bull's Charge is out of the question due to the fact that henchmen will waste it by using a skill, thus ending it. Of other elites that are possible, Warrior's Endurance isn't worth bringing in this type of old GvG build, and Hundred Blades doesn't do enough to warrant bringing it. Ever.

Ah, but what about Reyna?
Her original skill set is this:
[skill]Kindle Arrows[/skill][skill]Dual Shot[/skill][skill]Power Shot[/skill][skill]Practiced Stance[/skill][skill]Troll Unguent[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

I think it should be this:
[skill]Apply Poison[/skill][skill]Crippling Shot[/skill][skill]Hunter's Shot[/skill][skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Precision Shot[/skill][skill]Whirling Defense[/skill][skill]Troll Unguent[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Reasoning: She's the best archer this side of the Tarnished Coast, and bears the nickname "Eagle Eye", so she had better have a skill bar that befits that name! She's now a hardy Ranger, doing what they do best, debilitate the enemy. AI might not work well though, due to Crippling Shots 1 second recharge. The interrupt might not be that useful either, due to Hard Mode enemies having half activation times and half recharges.

Since they're core henchmen, they should only have core skills. The above thread on the Hard Mode Henchmen challenge made viable builds for all the core henchmen using only core skills. Or at least I did.

Kale, without meaning any offense, the skill sets you are suggesting and any skill combination that is created using just core and campaign specific skills is not going to be able to suffice in HM.

Some of you are mentioning balance without even the slightest idea of what would actually work in HM. I would like to actually have skill sets on henchmen that make HM possible to play. This means balancing it so that every mission and every vanquishable area is possible to be done using heroes + henchmen when there are no other players available to help. This wont work using just core + campaign specific skills.

Try playing Vizunah Square in HM with 7 henchmen. The outposts are virtually deserted with no one looking for a HM party, and every time you enter the other team is made fully of hench.

Even if you did manage to create an organised 8 player human team, the other team would still be henchmen 90% of the time. The henchmens skillsets need to be balanced to make these missions possible to beat.

You have to realise bhavv, that henchmen were designed to be LESSER than either Heroes or Players, so their skillsets will REFLECT that. You can't ask that Alesia bring Dismiss Condition or Light of Deliverance due to lore and balance. THAT is why the skillbars for Stefan and Reyna will only ever have Prophecies and Core skills ONLY.

Apart from that, even the Devs have thought that it's possible to hero/hench hard mode (and there are even players on this forum who have done so) with their currently poorly thought out builds. Thus, if this ever gets implemented, it'll just make it easier to complete, and not make it go from the impossible to the possible.

I haven't played too much of HM at the moment, but so far I'm having little difficulty using a hench/hero party. The only area I failed to vanquish was Eastern Frontier, which I gave up on since Grawl are just ridiculously strong (when I say gave up, I mean will come back later with a different build. Probably containing Norgu, who I didn't have when I first tried). I don't see why henchmen should be upgraded with skills from continents they are not from, simply because you can beat HM with them at the moment, although not very easily sometimes. I think simply tweaking their skill bars a bit to get rid of the useless skills will suffice, replacing them with skills available from the continent that the hench is on.

smite hex > holy veil

throw dirt is extremly bad used by heroes.

the ranger npc will run at beginning of a battle to the front. melee ranger ftl.

I'd like to see some skills that are appropriate for the area. Cynn really shouldn't be using fire magic in the Ring of Fire.

The main 5 that travel between games should have mostly proph skills but maybe 1-2 from the other games in those campaigns. Thus in NF Cynn would have mind blast or SF as her elite.

At the very least, Mhenlo should bring zealot's fire. Other than that, I'd have to look at their skill lists to give more specific suggestions.

Correct.

Henchmen skills bars can't be customizable - that would simply make them heroes.

As for "balance" Bhavv, I was not talking about "skill balancing", I mean the balance between skill synergy per character, and the synergy between each team member. There are skills in each campaign/core that are duplicates, or just as efficient as other campaign skills.

And have I played HM? Sure. The majority of my Vanquishing Title is being done with H/H.

Back to the real discussion.

Henchman: Sogolon
Campaign: Nightfall
Original Skill Set: Aria of Restoration, Ballad of Restoration, Cautery Signet {E}, Leaders Comfort, Mending Refrain, Signet of Synergy, Rez Signet
New Hard Mode Skill Set:
[skill]Aria of Restoration[/skill][skill]Song of Restoration[/skill][skill]Zealous Anthem[/skill][skill]Aria of Zeal[/skill][skill]Leader's Comfort[/skill][skill]Burning Refrain[/skill][skill]Spear of Lightning[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]

I posted this one in my other thread but wanted to bring it over here too.

I like Sogolon's healing ability, but also feel he can be a bit more useful with a) some energy return (in place of a Blood Rit from a Necro) b) a permanent rez c) some extra damage dealing.

*edit to ask a question*

Here's one for the devs, or if anyone actually knows (I did check the wikis, but couldn't see anything on them about it).

Regarding hench attribute points and runes - do hench use just the base attribute point spread without runes? Or do they have runes in their major attributes, plus runes of vigor/absorption etc to help balance out their damage taking?

If they DON'T have runes, would it be possible to add to the discussion the possibility of having them "runed up"?

Thanks

Should remove the bit of code that's telling heros/hench that Zealous Benediction is a target other ally skill. Somewhere after the PvP preview it was changed to target ally, however heros/hench were apparently not updated - they will never heal themselves with ZB.