2007 skill nerf wishlist.

TheOneMephisto

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

03 Jun 2007 at 15:04 - 41

martialis

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2006

RA, reporting you

03 Jun 2007 at 17:09 - 42

Quote:

A lot of people are just screaming ONOES NERF GO AWAY, but really, people, think about this stuff. Even in PvE, is the game really fun if you just grab super-powerful skills and dominate an monsters you meet? Doesn't high-level PvE exist solely so that you can take on a challenge that actually takes coordination and organization to beat? I had the impression that that was the point of stuff like the UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz, etc, not so that you could go in there and just farm like crazy. No, it exists so we can farmfatloot. UW, FoW and Urgoz can all be cleared with 3 people, and what you're seeing is the vocal minority that does that. When SS was nerfed (surprise!), people flooded the campfire with crying for weeks.

Hard mode is way too easy.

Darth Kukulkan

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

03 Jun 2007 at 17:24 - 43

From which right do simple mided players like you suggest any balance whch would be all but balanced ? none

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

03 Jun 2007 at 19:57 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Paragons are "useless" in PvE because it doesn't fit into the cookie cutter builds of pure tanking, heal/prot, or massive damage. Similar to the hundreds of threads that say how mesmers are really good but underrated in PvE, paragons are the same way. Even after nerfs to their skills, they are still very powerful and viable in PvE, just underrated.
.

The issue with mesmers is somewhat different when they have 3 or 4 chapters worth of skills to choose from... paragons do not... the skills being targeted are some of the very few skills that are actually useful to the pve paragon.

Quote: Originally Posted by theonemephisto

I don't get why people get so angry at these proposed nerfs, as most of them really don't matter to PvE much at all. Lots of these skills are serious problems in PvP, but don't matter in PvE. How often do you have to sit there and wait for debilitating hexes to take effect when you could just use an ele to blow them all up? How often are paragons used as tanks (either way, they still have a shield + shouts + centurions for ridiculous armor)?

People should listen to Ensign more. Not only does he have one of the best understandings of game balance of any person that plays this game (including the devs) and has been playing the PvP game at the highest of levels for an extremely long time, he also apparently does play PvE.

A lot of people are just screaming ONOES NERF GO AWAY, but really, people, think about this stuff. Even in PvE, is the game really fun if you just grab super-powerful skills and dominate an monsters you meet? Doesn't high-level PvE exist solely so that you can take on a challenge that actually takes coordination and organization to beat? I had the impression that that was the point of stuff like the UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz, etc, not so that you could go in there and just farm like crazy.

Paragons could have had a very relevant and vital role in DOA were it not due to nerfs to defensive shouts... skills like [skill=text]"incoming!"[/skill] used to be good enough in pve to take a paragon in high end areas like DoA, but because of pvp balance this skill is ONLY effective with multiple copies on a all P/ team. And the true purpose of the skill is lost.

and so again pve'ers get the nerfed leftovers of 'overpowered' skills that are a direct result of PvP'ers EXPLOIT and ABUSE.. ...who clearly do not play the class/skills as they were intended.

...and why is GvG balance more important then the ability for any class to get a group in DoA??? More players spend more time in pve anyway. It's easy for a pvp'er to adapt and make a new class. But it's not as easy to see your favourite class, in which you have invested 100+hours and tons of gold to build, be completely raped of the few skills that make it viable and valuable in any group. I would say that effort should be spent to buff skills in the less used classes for this very reason.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

03 Jun 2007 at 23:09 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

We're merely trying to explain things from the PvE point of view too.

When I do get involved in PvE topics, it's for similar reasons to why I get involved in PvP topics - to better understand how some aspect of the game works. I'm a bit of a Jack-of-all-Trades in PvE, sticking with a given zone or goal long enough to figure out how it works before growing bored with it.

At this point I've done pretty much everything in PvE except Citadel - I've been looking for a group for that for around a month now on and off, but just end up running Foundry groups instead. If you're making one and need an Ele let me know.

Quote: Originally Posted by leeky baby I think there should be a removal for everything You can't make that practically true even if you can make it theoretically true. Is there removal in the game for RoF, for instance? Sure, it's an enchantment, and every once in a long while you'll be able to Shatter one, but for all practical purposes that's not removable. Instantaneous effects aren't removable either, and so forth.

Unremovable effects are fine as long as they are priced with their invulnerability to removal in mind. Generally that means weaker effects overall so that there isn't anything that must be removed, and higher costs for those effects. Skills that are uncounterable as well as unremovable (shouts for the most part) need an even higher premium. The game works fine with a subset of effects that can't be directly countered, it just gets ugly when those effects become predominant and the counter/removal game becomes less relevant.

Quote: Originally Posted by clawofcrimson the skills being targeted are some of the very few skills that are actually useful to the pve paragon. You're unneccessarily focusing on PvE there, as Paragons don't have a lot of useful effects in general. They're easily the profession with the highest percentage of fundamentally flawed, narrow garbage in the skillset that really can't ever be good in an interesting game. Aggressive Refrain and Go for the Eyes aren't just used on every PvE Paragon bar, they are used on every Paragon bar, period.

Quote: Originally Posted by clawofcrimson Paragons could have had a very relevant and vital role in DOA were it not due to nerfs to defensive shouts... You quite honestly could not be more wrong about this. I personally tried out a bunch of different strategies for DoA shortly after release, including some that made heavy usage out of Paragons and team-wide passive defenses in general. Even with the crazy state of a lot of passive defense back then, it simply wasn't enough to deal with the harshest areas of DoA - the Touch Necros in Stygian Veil; the cave in Ravenheart Gloom; the Dervish swarm in Foundry. You simply cannot defend a team against the brunt of those attacks. Those areas need to be bypassed with AI tricks; by either cornerblocking and tanking them with a ridiculously protted tank character to eliminate the damage, or by walking those mobs into huge trap bombs that ignore the mobs entirely.

Once you resign yourself to needing to do use those tricks to get past those encounters, the Paragon becomes an incredibly weak character. What good is party-wide defense when your defense is coming from a tank or wall of traps?

A lot of classes are excluded from DoA simply because those encounters are too harsh, and require a very narrow range of strategies to pass. For example Rangers are largely excluded from DoA because of the number pulls that require corner blocking to pass, which removes LoS and leaves them as 'trap or bust' characters. Things aren't neccessarily as narrow as the pick up community would have you think (a Paragon isn't neccessarily bad in Stygian Veil, where you can kite the touchers and brute force everything else with a good enough team...and could function in City of Torc'qua), but in general that zone is simply too harsh for much variation in builds or strategies - it's a design disaster because of it, and not terribly fun.

However, it is also the *only* zone with that problem. Paragons are a perfectly viable profession in every other zone of the game, including Fissure of Woe, the Underworld, the Deep, and Urgoz' Warren.

Quote: Originally Posted by clawofcrimson skills like [skill=text]"incoming!"[/skill] used to be good enough in pve to take a paragon in high end areas like DoA, but because of pvp balance this skill is ONLY effective with multiple copies on a all P/ team. And the true purpose of the skill is lost. Huh? What do you think the true purpose of "Incoming!" was? I really hope you aren't insinuating that "Incoming!" is good with multiple copies on an all Paragon team, because it isn't.

The point of "Incoming!" was to stop a spike of damage if you saw it coming in, be it an adrenal spike in PvE or a big AoE hit in PvE. The problem with the initial version of the skill was that it lasted so long that you didn't have to time it with the big hits to make it effective, you could just cycle multiple copies of the skill instead to always have it up. Hence, the duration kept being nerfed to make it a spike-only skill, until its current form which is a bit too weak (it needs to be 1...4 seconds to fill its purpose).

But even in its old state, "Incoming!" was never good enough to be worth a spot in DoA. 5-6 seconds of half damage on your tank every 20 seconds is a terrible waste of your elite. Nor were any of the other party-wide buffs: they're all pretty bad when they only affect one person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

and so again pve'ers get the nerfed leftovers of 'overpowered' skills that are a direct result of PvP'ers EXPLOIT and ABUSE.. ...who clearly do not play the class/skills as they were intended. Since you're the expert on what Arena.net intended to do with the Paragon profession, perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten me?

Because I honestly do not understand what the PvE community that is so up in arms about the "PvP EXPLOIT AND ABUSE" of Paragon skills was doing with the profession that was so different. At least my PvE Paragons were rather similar to my PvP Paragons - a ton of passive defense and party-wide buffs, with a couple of spear attacks mixed in to up the damage. I believe the prototypical "PvE Paragons" forsook the spear entirely and just mashed on party-wide defensive buffs, effectively combining the passive defense of multiple PvP Paragons onto one character. Is that incorrect?

If that's correct, what exactly is the big complaint? That those passive defensive skills, while overpowered in PvP, aren't overpowered in PvE? By what metric?

As far as I can tell, the only skills that have been really exploited by massed Paragon teams are the Finales. Those go absolutely nuts in massed Paragon teams, and either have or should be recieving huge nerfs in the near future. No, those aren't going to remain viable on single Paragon teams, that simply can't be done without a huge reworking of those skills.

But the only Finale that was relevant to PvE play was Energizing Finale, which was so ridiculously overpowered that it could outclass BiP with a single Paragon on the team. Maybe that's your point about nerfs ruining the Paragon for PvE. The old EF shout Paragons could have replaced the BiP Necro in DoA by mashing on his shouts with the ridiculous EF. But unlike PvP, where that's degenerate and broken, one skill giving the entire team infinite energy at no cost is balance in PvE, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

and why is GvG balance more important then the ability for any class to get a group in DoA??? DoA is not an area you would ever want to address by buffing skills. It's basically a textbook example of really shitty PvE design, and of what happens when you don't properly balance mobs. Groups have to resort to the skills and tactics that best exploit the failings in the AI, and anything that's actually balanced for 'playing the game as intended' isn't welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

But it's not as easy to see your favourite class, in which you have invested 100+hours and tons of gold to build, be completely raped of the few skills that make it viable and valuable in any group. What skills were those? Energizing Finale? I don't think that "Incoming!" was significantly better than Song of Restoration in PvE, though it was on par. I honestly don't know what people were using before, that recieved nerfs and made the profession bad. Maybe I'm just really bad at GW PvE, but as far as I can tell even a single Paragon is still really, really good.

I'd love to see some well targeted buffs to unused skills and professions, for both PvP and PvE. But I don't think it's nearly as important as clearing out the degenerate stuff. Unused skills are just unused skills, they might as well not exist in the game and don't have any effect. It's the skills that are too good that make their presence impossible to ignore.

Peace,
-CxE

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

04 Jun 2007 at 03:10 - 46

Some people like to use the motivation skills, but all the wrong ones were nerfed seemingly to stop all-paragon abuse. As mentioned, the finales and chorus needed hammering to curb old-school paraway, but instead Song/Ballad/Aria of Restoration were actually nerfed. They weren't really very good in their old form in balanced parties either but at least some people felt good using them or something.

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

04 Jun 2007 at 05:09 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Kukulkan

From which right do simple mided players like you suggest any balance whch would be all but balanced ? none From the right that most people who are suggesting the balances are not simple minded...

Most players are either top PvP'ers who play a good amount of high-level PvE to understand both sides, or very experienced PvE'ers who dabble in upper level HA and GvG. Your post makes absolutely no contribution to the discussion, and is merely trolling. I don't feel sorry when mods delete posts like yours in the mirror thread in Gladiator's Arena, but apparently people make a big deal about mod "censorship" when all they're doing is censoring trash like this.

Enough ranting, if you don't anything constructive to say or respond, please don't post here. Just because this thread isn't as heavily moderated doesn't mean we want a bunch of trash here.

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

04 Jun 2007 at 09:32 - 48

hey there... didn't mean to agro the balance master (I say that with respect)

ensign I actually agree with most of you adjustments. The need for further paragon adjustments is apparent to me. (anyone strolling through the paragon forums would see that I agree.) but I think perhaps more than just adjusting the skills will fix the class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You're unneccessarily focusing on PvE there, as Paragons don't have a lot of useful effects in general. They're easily the profession with the highest percentage of fundamentally flawed, narrow garbage in the skillset that really can't ever be good in an interesting game. Aggressive Refrain and Go for the Eyes aren't just used on every PvE Paragon bar, they are used on every Paragon bar, period.

... actually that's my point...yet these skills are the ones being targeted... With all the garbage skills in the paragon line, they need some redeeming ones. That need is even more highlighted for the pve paragon, who cant just delete and start a different character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

DoA is not an area you would ever want to address by buffing skills. It's basically a textbook example of really shitty PvE design.

you are right about that...poor example, but keep in mind that the paragon has received nothing but nerfs since its conception (aside from a few minor spear changes) and further nerfing is just putting more nails into the pve paragon coffin, and not because it is truly a bad class (I surely know this better than most). It desparately needs some well placed buffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Since you're the expert on what Arena.net intended to do with the Paragon profession, perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten me?

Because I honestly do not understand what the PvE community that is so up in arms about the "PvP EXPLOIT AND ABUSE" of Paragon skills was doing with the profession that was so different.

I don't claim to be an expert... but I have tried hard to bring paragons back into pve. The 'zomg nerfed again' reputation of the class has just recently been recovering, due in a small part to some hard work.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10151254

...and I don't think that all paragon teams chaining 'incoming!' is exactly what was intended for the class. ...skills like 'incoming!' when they first were released, were useful to the single paragon as a filler elite, but as you said yourself, multiple copies were taken and chained. This is just one example. The "paragon LFG" has been hampered in the past because of the abuse of all the passive skills in all 'P/x' pvp teams. Would you still think these targeted skills needed adjustment if you only faced one paragon on each team??? I think not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign ...what exactly is the big complaint? That those passive defensive skills, while overpowered in PvP, aren't overpowered in PvE? By what metric? ..by the metric that puts enemies at a constant speed and ias boost. and a simple fun factor. Who would'nt enjoy their favourite non core professions (sin, rit, para) buffed to be not only workable...but useful in hard areas (HM, DoA, FOW)...and I'll say it again, their are more players who would benefit from this increased fun...then there are hardcore gvg'ers and HA'ers who want the game to be perfectly balanced in their own field of play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign
As far as I can tell, the only skills that have been really exploited by massed Paragon teams are the Finales. Those go absolutely nuts in massed Paragon teams, and either have or should be recieving huge nerfs in the near future. No, those aren't going to remain viable on single Paragon teams, that simply can't be done without a huge reworking of those skills. I agree... the finales need work. Maybe having them work similar to weapon spells? only one at a time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign
But the only Finale that was relevant to PvE play was Energizing Finale, which was so ridiculously overpowered that it could outclass BiP with a single Paragon on the team. Maybe that's your point about nerfs ruining the Paragon for PvE. It needed the nerf its true, but single paragon on a team should be able to do at least the same thing as a Bip necro no? with the current skills like 'the power is yours' you pretty much have to take Bip anyway.... so yes, it has effected the single paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign
I'd love to see some well targeted buffs to unused skills and professions, for both PvP and PvE. But I don't think it's nearly as important as clearing out the degenerate stuff. Important for who? ...again... these buffs would be extremely important to the pve'ers out there. Especially to make the paragon's limited skillset more inviting in light of an upcoming nerf.

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

04 Jun 2007 at 09:59 - 49

Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
If you're referring to me or Ensign or something coming over to "troll" a PvE thread, then you should learn the definition of trolling. We're merely trying to explain things from the PvE point of view too. And I heard Ensign recently did hard mode Deep (upper-tier PvE), making him super-qualified to talk about PvE I wasn't referring to you or Ensign trolling PvE threads, I was referring to other random forum users. Too often I see "ZOMG the build you clearly stated was for use in PvE wouldn't work in PvP because of this and this and this" in The Campfire...and nothing gets done. As soon as anything vaguely PvE related gets mentioned in PvP threads mods have a deleting Frenzy. Ensign does make valid comments on the thread topic, I have no quarrel with that, I just disagree with his choice of res.

Oh, thank you for explaining "hard mode Deep" was "upper-tier PvE" - I'm not sure I'd have understood that without your translation

Onto the subject of removals for shouts and weapon spells...I don't agree with weapon spell removals at all. Weapon spells can't stack like enchantments can, and are often conditional...having them strippable would hurt Ritualists and give people further reasons to not use them in PuGs. As for shouts...shout removal I could accept...maybe "shout neutering" or some sort... maybe a mesmer hex? Cast the hex and for the duration target foe cannot be affected by shouts? That could work...either that or a new condition: deafness. Shout removal seems a bit...odd...but hexing or conditioning a foe so as they take no benefit from shouts would seem like an approptiate solution to me.

Perfected Shadow

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Zul'Aman

Umes Uranger U[bot]

04 Jun 2007 at 12:00 - 50

Quote:
Originally Posted by clawofcrimson
more players who would benefit from this increased fun...then there are hardcore gvg'ers and HA'ers who want the game to be perfectly balanced in their own field of play. This is similar to my line of thought. I'm probably being ignorant, but I see that it's mainly the GvG/HA players who want skill nerfs. Okay and so I'm likely a power creep(er), whatever it means, but not everyone hopes for game balance especially if it means their favorite skills get the axe. I know I don't since imo, while a great concept, game balance is an illusion. Nerf FoTMs, overused skills, etc but others surface and these in turn get nerfed too, and this nerf cycle would go on and on until the devs move on to GW2. So what's the point? Why not just avoid having players complain because this or that skill was nerfed.

I know forum polls do not necessarily give an accurate representation of what GW players want, but why not start one (in Riverside so it's easily seen)? I'd like to see how many are actually in favor of specific nerfs or nerfs as a whole. If the GvG/HA players represent an overwhelming majority, then by all means A-Net should implement these nerfs, and you can tell us power creepers to go to a corner heh.

sir lockt

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2006

The Netherlands

Lightning Strikes Twice

Mo/

04 Jun 2007 at 13:13 - 51

I really dont understand a lot of these posts. Ensign proposes some skill balancing that are good for PvP. My PvP side agrees with it, but then I grab my PvE characters...

...the worst complaint is about SR. My favorite PvE char is a Necro and what did i do? I grabbed my necro went to Viz Square...and finished it with only my own half of the team, just because of SR and Minions. nice? yes of course.. but not really a challenge.

There are plenty of examples like this... A lot of PvE'ers like you are good enough to play hard-mode (for the sake of argument i hope you do...) why is it nice? why do you play it in the first place? because it is hard... any nerf would make it harder... I would say it is an improvement.

Of course there is a limitation: the game should be playable. For me the limit is at such a point you CAN finish the game...there is no need EVERYBODY can do it, but at least all professions should be able to do it. imho none of the proposed changes will influence this possibility.

After these balances are implemented you can discuss about boosting non or hardly used skill lines/skills, but in general it is just a limited open mind of many players which make them scream. Keep an open mind, stay inventive and find another way for your nerfed "this build can do everthing"...

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

04 Jun 2007 at 13:44 - 52

I agree with all the suggestions except for the searing flames nerf, beacause mostly everyting in HM only takes like 44 damage or less from it.

And no SF isnt the only skill I know how to use, it just owns in HM combined with a ToF para. A searing flames nerf right now would just hurt all the whining ive been doing for the last month to actually try and get HM balanced lol. I wouldnt be any happier with it nerfed, and then hitting everything for 29 damage.

I understand how imba it is in PVP. Ive beaten a few top guilds with nothing but SF in HA, which I play because its so easy to get a group

The suggestion that was made to differ the skills for PVE and PVP would be a fantastic solution, but like Anet give a rats 4$$ about balance between the two. Their unanimous decision not to allow 7 heroes in HM just shows how little they know about balance in PVE, never mind how much their skills are messed up in PVP.

Nightfall broke PVP, and HM has broken PVE. Untill Anet listen to numerous suggestions and complaints made by the player community, GW is going to remain a broken game.

.S, i make a lot of damn typos when typing thses things lol.

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

04 Jun 2007 at 14:39 - 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow
This is similar to my line of thought. I'm probably being ignorant, but I see that it's mainly the GvG/HA players who want skill nerfs. Okay and so I'm likely a power creep(er), whatever it means, but not everyone hopes for game balance especially if it means their favorite skills get the axe. I know I don't since imo, while a great concept, game balance is an illusion. Nerf FoTMs, overused skills, etc but others surface and these in turn get nerfed too, and this nerf cycle would go on and on until the devs move on to GW2. So what's the point? Why not just avoid having players complain because this or that skill was nerfed. So what would you suggest? For Anet to not do anything about it like right now and have half the game be completely not worth playing? For Anet to buff 500 skills instead of nerfing 20 so that your favorite hard mode boss can deal even more insane damage? Game balance is a delicate process that has to be closely monitored, with so many skills, but it's not an illusion. Look at starcraft, for example.

As for their favorite skill getting the axe...why do you think it was their favorite skill to begin with? Usually it's because it's unfairly overpowered and much better than the rest.

Nerfing skills has the analogy of raising taxes, as both are highly unpopular moves. The typical person doesn't see a point to either, since it'll affect them negatively. However, without skill balance, the game will be a wreck. Without raising taxes, the country will be a wreck without money.

And what happens after they move on to GW2? After isolating PvP and PvE, overpowered damage skills such as searing flames is still going to be nerfed, even if it's just for PvE since every elementalist, her mother, and her brother is running searing flames.

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

04 Jun 2007 at 15:48 - 54

@^ I think in the paragon's case we are not really talking about super powerful skills for the lone pve paragon, but rather the few redeeming skills that are only overpowered in a P heavy team.

there 'are' tax rules/breaks that protect us little people as well.

EDIT: I updated the OP with Ensign's current list. All things considered I think the changes are not so bad... they are still workable.

I still am uneasy about not having a removal for AR... a negative effect that you cannot remove is just as annoying as positive effects on the other team.

maybe -AL while attacking?

Xioden

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2006

04 Jun 2007 at 22:22 - 55

Simple fix for paragons; Their shouts/chants whatever don't work on other paragons with equal or greater leadership attributes.

This still leaves 1-2, maybe even 3 paragons being viable for a team build, but their effectiveness in their ability to stack skills across entire teams becomes more limited.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

05 Jun 2007 at 05:45 - 56

Quote:
Originally Posted by clawofcrimson
you are right about that...poor example, but keep in mind that the paragon has received nothing but nerfs since its conception

There's not a lot to buff in the class. Never has been, it wasn't designed deep enough, with enough good mechanics to even work with. You can't just buff the class until it's good, you would need to rework the class. Assuming that isn't going to happen (because A.Net's live team is anemic), we have to work with simple changes on the skills that are available, and the very few interesting options that present themselevs from that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clawofcrimson
...skills like 'incoming!' when they first were released, were useful to the single paragon as a filler elite

That was the problem with the skill. It was designed an an anti-spike skill to put up as the damage was coming in, but it ended up lasting so long that simply mashing on the thing on recharge was a very effective anti-pressure mechanism. Now it is only usable as an anti-spike mechanism (and only at 12 Command, which is why it's bad). I'll go so far as to say that if Incoming is a viable skill for a majority of players in PvE, then it is way too good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clawofcrimson
Would you still think these targeted skills needed adjustment if you only faced one paragon on each team???

The targeted skills (ala the Finales)? With the exception of Energizing Finale, no, they didn't need an adjustment with only one shouter in the build. They do need adjustment for more than one shouter, which I recommended - as far as I can remember, EF is the only Finale to have recieved a nerf so far.

The party wide healing and defensive buffs? Those are in need of nerfs, even with only one Paragon on a team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clawofcrimson I agree... the finales need work. Maybe having them work similar to weapon spells? only one at a time? Only having one retardedly broken effect on you at a time is still retardedly broken.

Quote: Originally Posted by clawofcrimson but single paragon on a team should be able to do at least the same thing as a Bip necro no? No, a Paragon should not be able to incidentally do the job that a dedicated BiP Necro can do.

Quote: Originally Posted by clawofcrimson these buffs would be extremmely important to the pve'ers out there. No, actually, they probably wouldn't be. None of them would affect the Paragon's PvE role, and that's what their real problem has always been. Teams just don't want what the Paragon offers. That's not going to be fixed by making them even better at jobs that few want them to do. They need their scope widened for that to happen, and the skillset simply does not support that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow
game balance is an illusion. It is anything but an illusion. To those whom it is relevant, it is incredibly apparent and has huge impacts on gameplay. Just because you cannot see it or understand the consequences does not mean it does not exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv
The suggestion that was made to differ the skills for PVE and PVP would be a fantastic solution Actually, no, it's a horrendous solution suggested by shortsighted individuals who know absolutely nothing about game design. They don't want separate PvE and PvP skill changes because it would somehow make PvE more balanced - no, they want it so that PvE can *remain unbalanced* in ways that they're accustomed to exploiting. To hell with the long term health of the game, or with diversity, or anything like that - I've got mine, and I want to keep it!

Not to dismiss the carrot-on-a-stick market segment, because it's enormous. How you design a game for them is something that's pretty well understood at this point. It should just be pointed out that game balance is not an interesting concept to that type of gamer. Nor is giving them what they want a good idea - Joe Casual is all about the carrot, but to design a game that's engaging for him it's all about the stick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson
I think in the paragon's case we are not really talking about super powerful skills for the lone pve paragon, but rather the few redeeming skills that are only overpowered in a P heavy team. You think wrong. Every skill that has been nerfed so far was a problem on single Para teams as well. There are very few skills that directly benefit from having more Paragons in the build.

For 90% of the skills (the exception being the Finales) the problem has *never* been "oh, these skills are fairly balanced, but become unbalanced with lots of Paragons". It has always been "these party-wide effects are overpowered."

Paragon is the best single character template for 8v8 fighting. When one character is simply the best in a common situation, why don't you run a lot of them? Notstacking abilities mostly, which is why most teams stop at 2 or 3 Paragons in their dedicated 8v8 builds now. That 3rd Paragon just isn't anywhere near as good as the 2nd one, and the 4th one is usually pretty sketchy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xioden
Simple fix for paragons Completely ineffective for reasons that would be obvious if you played PvP. This is the sort of solution offered by people who don't get it at all and confuse the massed Paragons as the cause of imbalances, rather than the symptom. The strongest 8v8 builds run exactly two Paragons - and the other Paragon is the person that benefits the least from a lot of your defenses. Since, you know, they have the highest natural defense in the game.

Peace,
-CxE

Xioden

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2006

05 Jun 2007 at 06:59 - 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign

Completely ineffective for reasons that would be obvious if you played PvP. This is the sort of solution offered by people who don't get it at all and confuse the massed Paragons as the cause of imbalances, rather than the symptom. The strongest 8v8 builds run exactly two Paragons - and the other Paragon is the person that benefits the least from a lot of your defenses. Since, you know, they have the highest natural defense in the game. I do, pretty much exclusively. And yes, I do get it. I'd much prefer running into two paragons than a paraway build. Two paragons, while they do offer increased benefits, its nothing that makes the team difficult to play. A warder running 4 wards for example would have a significantly greater effect on the battle in all honesty. The given change would actually make that other paragon the weak point to the build as it would end up with less defenses than anyone else in the team. But than of course I guess just nerfing the hell out of them until they don't see use except under rare situations always works aswell.

Perfected Shadow

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Zul'Aman

Umes Uranger U[bot]

05 Jun 2007 at 12:05 - 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
So what would you suggest? For Anet to not do anything about it like right now and have half the game be completely not worth playing? For Anet to buff 500 skills instead of nerfing 20 so that your favorite hard mode boss can deal even more insane damage? Game balance is a delicate process that has to be closely monitored, with so many skills, but it's not an illusion. Look at starcraft, for example.

I'm suggesting that they listen to what most players want, and I don't believe everyone wants nerfs. So maybe buff several skills in each profession. I should rephrase game balance since I'm referring to game balance only in GW. RTS games like StarCraft thrive on being balanced, and it's easier to achieve it on that genre (e.g. there are only three races and less modes of play in StarCraft).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign
To those whom it is relevant, it is incredibly apparent and has huge impacts on gameplay. Just because you cannot see it or understand the consequences does not mean it does not exist. The impacts of balance on high end (or maybe all forms of) PvP is largely positive, but what about the impacts on the rest of us noobs?

So what's your vision of a balanced GW? Cause I don't see it, I think there will always be good skills/builds that emerge which will be labelled imbalanced, and so on and so forth. If balance exists, I still believe it cannot be achieved.

Willow O Whisper

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2007

Denmark

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

Me/A

05 Jun 2007 at 12:24 - 59

Quote:
Originally Posted by Age
__________________

Assassin
*Reduce maximum Shadow Step distance from radar to half radar*
Black Lotus Strike: 10...20 Damage, 3...15 Energy
Shadow Prison: 2...6d

Orignally Posted by Ensign in The Gladiator Forum but this is for PvEers to have there say as well.It is your game as well. why on earth do those skills need a nerf? I mean how hard can it be to counter a sp sin? Blind/hex removal.

HayesA

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Pennsylvania

E/

05 Jun 2007 at 12:33 - 60

Argh, not more nerfs to Searing Flames. D: I know it's not a very popular spell when you're on the receiving end. But what offensive spell IS popular to receive? Obviously one that you can either negate, or buffs you. It's a combat spell, and i'm sick of seeing decent combat spells being nerfed. I honestly don't see why poeple think it's overpowered; the burning is easily negated by monks, so if you take burning away immediately, you won't take damage from the second hit.

Sure if someone spams SF on you, you'll get damaged, but in the mean time, most eles can be killed quickly. You get 1 warrior, or derv, or assassin, or ranger, or any other meelee damage dealer on an ele, and they usually go down. Especially if they're using the standard SF fire build which leaves little room for protection/self healing.

It was already nerfed, anyway. remember that? Months ago? It was pretty well determined to be a good nerf; one that was coming. Yes, before the skill was just too powerful with it's fast recharge. But now, I don't see anything wrong with it.

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

05 Jun 2007 at 14:20 - 61

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
The party wide healing and defensive buffs? Those are in need of nerfs, even with only one Paragon on a team. one copy of Syg on a team is not a problem. One copy of SOR on a team is not a problem... heck, it's not even taken on gvg teams. how do these skills need a nerf when there is only one copy..?

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

05 Jun 2007 at 14:55 - 62

I think Watch Yourself! could use a bigger hit. If Stand Your Ground! received the suggested change to 16 AL it would still require two copies of it within the build to maintain it for the entirety of combat (at an investment of at least 10 in command). A single copy of Watch Yourself! on the party bar would provide more defense at a similar investment, and arguably just as much up time even at 6 adrenaline. I'd rather tack on a hard 5 seconds, forcing the player to wait out out nearly the entire duration of Watch Yourself! before the adrenaline gain process on the skill begins again. A 6 adrenaline change would be welcome, but there are always means of abusing adrenaline gain. A 5 second recharge onto the skill (and maybe an extra strike of adrenaline) would force the skill into more tactical use rather than mash on recharge when the icon is flashing (or in the case of Finales, after the icon drops).

Aggressive Refrain has always felt silly when using it. An IAS that ensures your Centurion's armour bonus is always working before the combat even starts, and can't be stripped. I'd like to see it changed to 15/2/10 with the last line changed to "This echo is reapplied at a -1 attribute level everytime a shout or chant ends on you (if this were to reapply at an attribute level of 0 this echo ends)" but it would need a wording overhaul there. Basically at say 12 in leadership, it can be reapplied 12 times before it would vanish on its own. In addition, every time it is refreshed it is done so with a smaller timeframe to refresh making your shout/chant usage less spammy or the skill will end very quickly. Multiple paragons would also ensure it has to be reapplied more often making it a questionable skill slot if you plan on carrying two paragons. Since it would no longer have an endless up time, the energy would need a tone down, and at the stand a 2 second cast time means it is a target for interrupts.

An echo becomes quieter each time it 'echoes' afterall right? Make the refrains weaker every time they are reapplied until the player is forced to a point where they need to refresh them at full strength.

master of cookies

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

order of clerics

P/

05 Jun 2007 at 15:10 - 63

Quote:
Originally Posted by clawofcrimson
one copy of Syg on a team is not a problem. One copy of SOR on a team is not a problem... heck, it's not even taken on gvg teams. how do these skills need a nerf when there is only one copy..? Very true, they recharge time of most motivation skills is pretty harsh if there is only 1 paragon on a team and SYG with one copy is less of a threat than one Watch Yourself as WY is easily maintainable, 6A would make it harder to maintain and if you wanted to maintain it would possibly make you choose against using another adrenaline skill before it runs out. SYG the way it is, isn't much of a problem as it requires high investment in an attribute, even the Kournans link it in PvE!

XvArchonvX

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

R/

05 Jun 2007 at 15:27 - 64

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willow O Whisper
why on earth do those skills need a nerf? I mean how hard can it be to counter a sp sin? Blind/hex removal. Because no runs anything other than an SP sin. When a class becomes almost entirely dependant on a single build for effectiveness, there needs to be an adjustment to encourage diversity. Diversity in builds = more thought required to create a build = more depth.

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

05 Jun 2007 at 20:54 - 65

Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
Because no runs anything other than an SP sin. When a class becomes almost entirely dependant on a single build for effectiveness, there needs to be an adjustment to encourage diversity. Diversity in builds = more thought required to create a build = more depth.
If the build is not overpowered then 'balancing' should mean creating other options that are just as good... am I wrong?

Tarun

Technician's Corner Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2006

The TARDIS

http://www.lunarsoft.net/ http://forums.lunarsoft.net/

05 Jun 2007 at 21:16 - 66

Best thing to do: Split PvE servers and PvP servers so they are 100% separate. Then they can nerf all the skills they want and it won't affect PvE negatively.

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

05 Jun 2007 at 23:42 - 67

Quote:
Originally Posted by clawofcrimson
If the build is not overpowered then 'balancing' should mean creating other options that are just as good... am I wrong?

You're half right. "Balancing" should make more than one viable build come into play for any profession. Yet it is far easier to reword one or two skills to lower a certian build to being on par with the others, than it is to buff 8-9 skills in other builds to bring them on par with the current best build. and SP needed a hit a long time ago, back when it was being used on other characters, not just assassins.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun
Best thing to do: Split PvE servers and PvP servers so they are 100% separate. Then they can nerf all the skills they want and it won't affect PvE negatively. While fundamentally this would be a decent suggestion, this suggestion is only good in theory. Realistically they cannot split the servers as you could not then take your PVE character to be able to play on a PVP server. The game design was ment for both to be linked to where a player would not have to switch servers when they wanted to try out a PVP area. Any character created in the guildwars world would have access to all parts of said world. the only exception being a PVP only character. While a good suggestion, even in theory, it does present a few flaws to it.

1) is that certian skills under different attributes and different abilities would ultimately function differently, thus leading to a misunderstanding of how each should be applied or played.
2) Ultimately while certian things will be ok to decent on one side, it will be completely broken and biased on the other. Granted PVE balance isnt as crucial as PVP balance is, but PVE shouldnt be just mindless button mashing, which is what its current state is as well as PVP strictly due to certian skills and game mechanics being overused or that simply outshine every other form of game balance.
3) Players come to expect that spells/skills to work fundamentally the same in both areas, which inturn leads to the game balance and skill allocation. While having seperate servers would allow for you to be able use and abuse every skill that would not be affected by a skill retooling, it would allow for even more seperation between PVE and PVP which thus ultimately goes against the games origional design.

Thus leads to the ultimate problem which was created with the games origional design in mind. You cannot balance a PVP game for PVE and you cannot balance a PVE game for PVP which is what many suggestions have suggested. While something overpowered and broken in PVP may not ultimately efffect PVE, the status and the aspect of said skill/spell is still there. Just because a guy robs a bank and its not your bank, doesnt mean that it didnt effect others that do bank there, yet you all live in the same community. The same with PVE. A skill or mechanic could be vastly different in PVE than it would be in PVP. But because it doesnt effect PVP, doesnt mean it isn't a problem. The problem with it is that not many PVE players truly care about balance because it is a fictional game and doesnt rely on a balanced mechanic to operate as PVP does. If a mob or boss has a certian set path or a set skillbar and you know whats comming, than it just makes it easier on you to be able to adapt to that and run something that makes that area easier. The AI in any game is never going to have the capabilities and understanding of a situation that a human player is goign to have, thus will be fundamentally different than a PVP environment. Thus why the 2 will never have a complete balance between them both and with the games concept and design, why it cannot be split.

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

06 Jun 2007 at 08:59 - 68

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarun
Best thing to do: Split PvE servers and PvP servers so they are 100% separate. Then they can nerf all the skills they want and it won't affect PvE negatively. That's why they're making GW2, to start over the design. And what makes you think there won't be skill balances once they separate PvE and PvP?

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

06 Jun 2007 at 10:11 - 69

Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
That's why they're making GW2, to start over the design. And what makes you think there won't be skill balances once they separate PvE and PvP? Will PvP be truly separate from PvE in GW2 do we know? (You seem to imply this but I don't recall reading it). Also, of course there will still be skill balances in both PvE and PvP if they were separate, but the bonus is, in my mind, that they would be able to, say, nerf the hell out of Paragons so they are completely useless in PvP while still having them viable in PvE.

I'm not sure I'd like PvP to be completely separate from PvE...I know this time comes around every few months with nerfs a-plenty...and noone particularly likes nerfs, but a change to the game is good in some respects because it gives people the opportunity to try out new builds as cookie cutter builds, from time to time, drop out of favour due to the nerfs.

What winds me up is the way "nerf wishlists" are created....it's always negative (no disrespect meant to the list's creator) ...there are never any "buff wishlists"...for instance, I'd love to see Gust buffed...it's not that usable at the moment in my opinion...just reducing it's recharge by a few seconds would probably make it a lot more desirable. (and no, I'm not suggesting all the worse skills should just be buffed...I would rather Bazzr Dustwing was not made more powerful...he's quite harsh enough as he is )

Sophitia Leafblade

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Dragon Slayer Guild [DSG]

R/

06 Jun 2007 at 14:20 - 70

Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
That's why they're making GW2, to start over the design. And what makes you think there won't be skill balances once they separate PvE and PvP?

Personally i thnk they will restore them togather again like how they once were in GW, i think the Biggest mistake Anet ever made in gw was moving all the Arenas(well most) to a seperate map and allowing the creation of PvP only characters. This is where the big divide started.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow
So what's your vision of a balanced GW? Cause I don't see it, I think there will always be good skills/builds that emerge which will be labelled imbalanced, and so on and so forth. If balance exists, I still believe it cannot be achieved. True balance would be achieved by giving every team the Exact same Stats and skills. The Battles would then skill based and the game perfectly balanced. Unfortuanally this would also make the game very short lived and unentertaining. There never will be a True balance especially with so many skills. 1 Skill will always "overshine" another, nerf one skill and the Fotm will go to the next strongest skill. Eg. Nerf Vampiric Gaze (to stop blood spike) and another skill will simply be used in its place, this is especially more true in PvP than PvE.

In gw the world is very diverse, A defeats b defeats c defeats d defeats a etc. by going build a in an area ull have an easy time against the builds b. The big difference from PvP is you know what your going to face in PvE (with the exception of the very 1st time u enter a new area) where as PvP you could be facing anything this does not make the game unbalanced, if you know SF is the current FoTM you change ur build to counter it instead of complaining its overpowered.

If you want a perfectly balanced Arena go play in the dragon Arena when it comes around again otherwise ull be waiting for infinity.

The PvE world is effected by skill changes considerablly but people generally adapt easy enough and get back on with things be they hard or Easier. However it does leave numerious skills potentially useless in 99% of situations, such skills also fall out of Favor in PvP and become unused.

around

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

Aussie Trolling Crew - Diplomatic Embassy

I Have Three Pennies [Pnny] - forever in my heart <3

R/

06 Jun 2007 at 14:47 - 71

Quote:

if you know SF is the current FoTM you change ur build to counter it instead of complaining its overpowered. And gimp your build if you don't face SF, like for example taking mantra of flame which otherwise has no use.

Being FoTM does not mean it is the most popular build, either.

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

07 Jun 2007 at 10:39 - 72

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
What winds me up is the way "nerf wishlists" are created....it's always negative (no disrespect meant to the list's creator) ...there are never any "buff wishlists"...for instance, I'd love to see Gust buffed...it's not that usable at the moment in my opinion...just reducing it's recharge by a few seconds would probably make it a lot more desirable. (and no, I'm not suggesting all the worse skills should just be buffed...I would rather Bazzr Dustwing was not made more powerful...he's quite harsh enough as he is ) Someone's coming up with a buff wishlist. Because of how many crappy skills there are in the game, it takes a lot longer (and less efficient) to make a buff wislist, which is why most balance changes are nerfs. Granted, Anet isn't going to take the time to buff all the skills probably, but that list is coming...

Narayanese

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2006

07 Jun 2007 at 14:22 - 73

Lots of good nerf suggestions in ensigns post. The SF one would help balance PvE a lot, though I would prefer a bit longer burning duration.

For spirit shackles, instead of 8...20d, I think it is better to make it a stronger but shorter hex, to make it good more useful in PvE (where all those long duration hexes are poor since monsters die so fast). Make it -10e per attack and 4...12d, or even -15e per attack and 2...9d.

That reaper's mark nerf suggestion is VERY hard, at least give us back the old energy gain on death so that there is some use in PvE.

I Brother Bloood I

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2006

Good question

09 Jun 2007 at 00:52 - 74

The suggestions so far would balance the game out fully, pve and pvp, unless anet buffs something. But, it comes up that the ineffective paragon class(in pve that is) doesnt deserve nerfing but buffing. But i have news for you guys and it is that paragons are just as effective in pve as they are in pvp. I suggest taking the paras and monks from gvg(well maybe not because pve players dont know how to play monk well tbh) and putting them into a build. From there you could probably remove tanks from builds and just have them as heavy armor dmg dealers instead of constantly tanking. The only reason that paragons are not used is because of the mentality of "This works fine already we do not need to worry about testing new things because its a waste of time". Before the paragon lovers complain about the nerfs you should complain more about not being accepted or needed in builds. But, im sure if u take insanley overpowered paragon A and insert in balanced build B you will get more than you ever wanted.

But, even though what i say is true. The thing is anet has a thing for pve'rs. A thing where pvp doesnt pay the bills pve does. So probably we will get ensign's nerfs but, like always, anet will buff a class and create a new overpowered skill combinations and we will go in the cycle of nerfing and buffing like this for a while. There is a way to change this though and make it all better. Invite some paragons into party + insert decent paragon build here = everything works good. This is the time for anet to save its pvp playerbase. And it will probably come down to how much the pve'rs complain.

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

09 Jun 2007 at 09:20 - 75

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I
The suggestions so far would balance the game out fully, pve and pvp, unless anet buffs something. But, it comes up that the ineffective paragon class(in pve that is) doesnt deserve nerfing but buffing. But i have news for you guys and it is that paragons are just as effective in pve as they are in pvp. I suggest taking the paras and monks from gvg(well maybe not because pve players dont know how to play monk well tbh) and putting them into a build. From there you could probably remove tanks from builds and just have them as heavy armor dmg dealers instead of constantly tanking. The only reason that paragons are not used is because of the mentality of "This works fine already we do not need to worry about testing new things because its a waste of time". Before the paragon lovers complain about the nerfs you should complain more about not being accepted or needed in builds. But, im sure if u take insanley overpowered paragon A and insert in balanced build B you will get more than you ever wanted.

But, even though what i say is true. The thing is anet has a thing for pve'rs. A thing where pvp doesnt pay the bills pve does. So probably we will get ensign's nerfs but, like always, anet will buff a class and create a new overpowered skill combinations and we will go in the cycle of nerfing and buffing like this for a while. There is a way to change this though and make it all better. Invite some paragons into party + insert decent paragon build here = everything works good. This is the time for anet to save its pvp playerbase. And it will probably come down to how much the pve'rs complain. It's too bad people aren't willing to take risks playing paragons. After all, they're not cookie-cutter. And PvP doesn't pay the bills that PvE does because for 90% of the time, Anet is giving all their attention to PvE. Skill balance is one of the few times they pay attention to PvP, and they don't even skill balance that often...

Keithark

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2006

Be Aggressive B E Aggressive [AGRO]

E/Me

11 Jun 2007 at 13:50 - 76

Don't nerf anything..as matter of fact take all skills back to however they were originally put into the game. PvE is happy and to quote lots of PvP players comments that I read on here directed to PvE'rs....if PvP doesn't like it then they need to "suck less" and "LTP"

1ord i3eans

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2007

12 Jun 2007 at 17:11 - 77

I've read posts about "game balance is an illusion" and how when anet do nerfs, they're not trying to balance the game, just move the metagame in a new direction, but I hope that before they move to nerfing GW2, or whatnot, they give a good effort and at least try to balance pve and pvp

Keithark

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2006

Be Aggressive B E Aggressive [AGRO]

E/Me

14 Jun 2007 at 13:14 - 78

They just need to make a closed deck of skills for PvP, then they could much more easily balance play for PvP without ruining things for PvE (except those skills in the deck of course)

Wings of Fury

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

21 Jun 2007 at 05:16 - 79

The Sf nerf in Pvp was needed but the Mor nerf is a big blow for the Pve Sf ele, basicly your energy management is out of tune and theres a gap in your Sf spike which is even less damage so a single Sf ele in a balanced team would basicly be a bad idea now but if your ok with more sf ele's and big area pulls blow em all up at once in your team, then both nerfs really dont matter in Pve but basicly with the Mor nerf you kill the flexibility of a single Sf ele.

Gunzwei

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2006

22 Jun 2007 at 23:13 - 80

I can agree that some of these are easily the most annoying skills to see in PvP since they have a very "fire and forget" flavor and could use some adjusting.

The only ones I can see that might affect general PvE would be..

- Watch Yourself!
- Broad Head Arrow
- Agressive Refrain
- Searing Flames

WY! - Change would basically make this almost worthless in comparison to the new defense PVE-Skills. 20ar party vs. 100ar party w/o you.

BHA - Make the arrow move normally if duration is cut. Unblockable would be nice, but that'd be overpowered ;D.

AR - Doable, paragons could switch to flail w/o a huge hastle imo.

SF - Longer burn makes up for loss in direct damage imo, but would be heavily whined about.

Other than those I rarely see any of the other skills used extensively in PvE. PvE could use a lot more adjustments than a few skill nerfs, namely..

-7 Heroes, this would go a long way for team-build diversity
- More "normal-level" PvE skills to avoid PvP abuse
- or buff unused skills
- More acessable end-game content like UW/FoW/ToPK/SF
- Less Gimmicky end-game content like DoA, spell immunity land.

Case in point, PvE has bigger issues than skill nerfs imo.

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