Deep and Urgoz filled with noobs ?

Well, that was a post from a real expert! I suppose that if you *really* know what you're doing then you understand the scope available for experimentation.

Maybe if there are 4-5 'newbs' (not noobs) that wanted to try The Deep or Urgoz we could organise in here and 2-3 of the people that are good enough to explain and help could shepherd us through.

I'm willing to use whatever build is necessary and do exactly what I'm told for a few runs.

One should note that the room order is in the order that the portals open, which is right-to-left. If you are supposed to be in room 1 and go running off to the left instead of the right some people will freak out about it.

Well, room 2 usually has a monk, the SS and the BiP. Since room 2 is within radar range of rooms 1 and 3 then the monk can spam HP (since he is getting BiPed) and provide some extra healing to those rooms. Having all three rooms able to clear and pull mobs from the next main room can easily shave 15 mins off your time. If a room wipes then they can be sitting there for up to 30 mins twiddling their thumbs while they wait to get rescued and it slows down the entire team... That being said -- it happens quite a bit. Room 3 can get a bad spawn and the Aspect is that every hit is a KD, so you can't get to a safe spot - in hard mode if you have no way of countering KDs you are basically permanently on your butt. Room 4 can be hard because the Aspect is that you can't block any attacks -- it is hard on the tank and the monk. Room 2 is insane because there aren't any "safe" spots to run and the Aspect is a 20% reduction in healing spells. It is a tiny room and once you aggro there is no turning back... Room 1 is a pain because there are Darkened Irukandji who bring up restoration spirits -- the Aspect only affects adrenal skills so it isn't that much of an issue.

By the way I'm a fogey too! 34 year old fogey.....jeez.

Awww, thx for explaining the Right to Left order. I was thinking the exact opposite.

Ok, so here is a complete Noob question to throw out......

What would happen if the entire team zoned into room 1 and cleared it? Would we then be trapped unable to proceed? Or would we be sent back to the beginning to clear Room 2........room 3........room 4? Obviously a very long and inefficient way to proceed, but possibly an easier way for newbies to learn the rooms.

impossible - once 3 people get into room 1, the portal closes.

Portals each close after 3 peeps have gone through, so no go there, unfortunately. They all open into a central room, the rooms are not "shotgun style" 1-2-3-4.

Also, heroes won't walk through the portals either.

/age

33 this summer! :O

/deaths

zero so far! phew!

Heh -- good question. If only it were that easy!

The portal closes after three people have entered and the next portal will open. So the max # of people per room is 3. People that go 9 man or 6 man (or whatever variation like 7 man) can leave rooms uncleared after they clear their room. For example, 6 man would leave rooms 3 and 4 uncleared since there isn't any reason to.

Edit: Oh -- and there are gates blocking the way -- so no shadow stepping.

Actually this isn't the case at all. Heroes will walk through the portals - I use them when I'm testing out a variation on a build. It is a good idea to flag them on the portal and let them go thru first tho. If you don't flag them they sometimes get confused as to how to reach you.

I like that idea. I'm very good at following orders, as long as they're not bad orders.

LOL, I'll even follow the bad orders. Especially if I've never seen the mission before....

"Ok, in this next section, the monsters hate Firestorm, so everyone spam firestorm, and please be sure you have your mending up"

Okay, I'm more than willing to accomodate. I'm sure I can talk a few of my guildies into doing this as well.

I'll plan on doing (at least) 2 runs tonight. Once at 9:00 CDT (GMT-5 I think) and again at 11:00 CDT (sorry if the times aren't idea for you, I have to wait until after the kiddo goes to bed). If you are interested in signing up for a run, send me a PM and I'll put you down on the list.

Things you need:
A) The char has to have either 1) a passage scroll to the Deep or 2) have been to the Deep before. If you have been to the Deep before, we should be able to ferry you w/o need for a scroll.
B) So you can get to know the run, have either a Warrior, Monk, Ele or Necro. If you have something else, let me know in your PM and I'll see if we can make an exception.
C) Be willing to buy some skills. There are things that do and don't work I'll try and help you have a good build.
D) Be willing to spend two hours in one mission, and be prepared to possibly -not- make it to the end.

If you Teamspeak that is great we use it. If you don't then don't worry about it, I can type fairly fast.

Well, that's going to be too late for me. I could do 10-11pm EST, but then I'd have to ditch your group halfway thru which wouldn't be fair. However, I'd like to commend you for doing this. I appreciate the effort and I'm sure others do as well.

If you feel like another run on the weekend (if I don't get up to go to work at 5am I can stay up), I'll take you up on it. I want to try my Ele there. I think I have most of the fire spells that are recommended. I don't own the Elite Glyph of Energy though. And I do have TS.

Heh, I'm sure I'll be doing the Deep this weekend. I'll try and organize something similar for this weekend.

As far as Ele spells, I'm a much bigger fan of Searing Flames for the Eles. A build like this one: OgVCoMzDuAZQ3GrNNgxSAjD is pretty darn good (it might take some getting used to if you haven't tried it before tho).

Actually that build is very close to what I normally run. Searing Flames is usually the elite on my bar. I'll admit I don't have arcane echo and have never used it. It is on my "to do" list though since a lot of builds seem to incorporate it.

I've never been a big fan of MS. It just takes too darn long to cast. In PvP it's almost always interrupted and in PvE the dang monster is dead or almost dead by my teammates efforts before I finish casting. However, I can see the benefits of using it with Echo. I'll try to acquire and practice with arcane echo before the weekend.

Antitorgo, I'd love to bring in my Canthan ele but SF and the 'recommended' build skills for the Deep are mainly NF skills - and she's not a well travelled girl *sigh*. Sure you don't need/want a ranger?

~Falcon

i'll lead a few groups if there are some newcomers that would like to experiment. just shoot me a whisper.

ign - R Langdon

Falcon, I don't mind helping you cap SF. Has your Ele crossed over to NF at all? If so you should be able to reach the SF boss right after you do the Consulate Docks mission which isn't too far from the cross over point.

I usually play in the evenings, EST. If you'd like to team up, I'll take you to the boss.

Thanks, Raven. Yeah, she's been to Elona and is presently waiting at the Consulate Docks - lag was too horrid for me to even think about attempting the mission just now.

Looks like SF is closer to GoT than it is Venta's Cemetary. It may take a little bit. If the lag lets up some, I may see you guys sooner rather than later .

I've had my Tyrian ranger in the Warren several times, once making it as far as knocking on Urgoz's door, so to speak. Been in a few helpful good groups (like that one) and a few ohmygodswhatwasIthinking groups that are really best left undescribed further. Never had any luck in the Deep, though.

~Falcon

Hmm... well you could always go with an Echo/MS type build... There are always variations. I'm a bit rusty on what Ele skills are Factions only so let me contemplate it a bit.

Problem with a Ranger is that Oni in the Deep cast Viper's Defense which teleports them with melee type damage. This is "bad" because they'll teleport behind the wall that the warriors have set up (to keep them from clobbering the casters). Not to say it can't be done tho... BHA on Outcast Spellstorms in HM would be lovely sometimes -- just couldn't justify taking a Ranger just for that one part of the mission tho...

SF is actually not too hard of a cap. It is just getting there.
Hint -- take Backfire, makes it a super easy cap.

If she were a Mesmer, I'd take Backfire, never fear .

But since she's only a lowly E/Mo, I guess she'll just have to holler "Burn, you bugger, BURN" a lot.

As I said, I've had a ranger in the Warren (only time she's ever trapped - and it was a blast) but no luck with groups in the Deep at all. I've never even seen the outside of the beginning 'rooms' .

~Falcon

I wouldn't mind going in a Deep group tonight either. Warren is nice, but I'm mainly a rit and walling gets a little boring -_- But yea, if anyone needs a rit who is willing to adjust to any build for the Deep, just PM me
<------IGN's over there

lol, actually he'll burn you. A lot! yeah, backfire is the way to do it. I didn't bring it either though. Instead I put 3 copies of backfire on my 3 heroes. Worked like a charm.

One of your first quests after getting past Consulate Docks mission is openning up the Sunspear Sanctuary, which will give you access to the Command Post. You can get to Turai's Procession from there, or from Venta Cemetary if you just want to run there. From there to the boss is not too hard. The Kournan's often have "spotters" that can see you from outside aggro range, so watch for that.

My problem with Backfire is the boss has to cast the spell to be affected. I'd rather bring some kind of daze skill and prevent the boss from wiping out the party. But if you just change your secondary to /Me you can go glyph sacrifice + backfire pretty easily if the skill is available to you. Mantra of Flame would be good too for that matter. For that matter, Glyph Sac/MS would probably help too. Or make Koss a Hammer warrior with mantra of flame from the mesmer inspiration line....of course you'd have to do another quest first if you want to go that route.

Edit: Didn't see the Factions only part. Sliver Armor should work. You can cap Stoneflesh Armor from Mehtani Keys, but that's probably too much work. Go Earth Ele, bring Ward against Melee (for dervish saphires i think the boss is guarded by) and Sliver Armor, obsidian flame, dragon stomp and whatever else you'd like to add. Make sure to flag your heroes and the rest of the party so they are a bit spaced out, better to lose one party member than 3 or 4.

Hmm... I dunno, I just flagged my heroes/henchies back and made sure the monks were within my range, ran in and took aggro while casting backfire on the boss. Killed in like 5 seconds cuz the boss will spam spells like crazy. And yes, this was with my squishy Ele and Mez chars.

maybe they are new to HM down there? u got to learn to play so give them a chance to learn

Well I can see how that would work! Didn't think of doing it that way. Smart. Still prefer shutting them down though, at least in general.

Learning how to do the Deep on HM would be fairly hard core. If you didn't know what to expect it is very likely you wouldn't make it past the first room. And that was part of the point of this thread. If you're new, please don't expect a group doing HM to accept you with open arms. We've actually done this though and didn't have much trouble because the people actually listened to us.

Here's an example of why it is important: Aspect of Depletion. (While under this aspect, every 30 seconds, you lose 10 Energy and take 8 points of damage for every point of Energy lost this way.)

So your monks/casters are energy deprived, the bip is bipping like crazy. Kanaxai aspect is buried back right. So the tank aggros the left-side group of outcasts. They cast Maelstrom and a caster kites to the right (oops, wasn't watching his aggro bubble, it pulled the right side outcasts). So now, two groups of outcasts are attacking. Uh oh, a tank just died and the middle group of outcasts made a flesh golemn out of his corpse. So now three group of outcasts are aggro'd -- In hard mode, that is 6 lvl 32 flesh golems that kite right around the tanks, it is also 6 outcast spellstorms casting Maelstrom and Arc Lightning (Arc Lightning is doing 200+ dmg to 2 people, while each hit by a flesh golemn is 200+ dmg to soft targets). Veterans will know that they need to keep a close eye on their aggro bubble in this aspect and avoid disaster (and even then, they sometimes lose focus in the heat of battle and it happens). -- The second most common place for a party to wipe (after the dreaded Scorpion aspect) is Aspect of Depletion.

It is important to have good teammates, one misstep while not watching your aggro bubble (happens all the time when someone is kiting) can lead to 6 lvl 32 flesh golemns, 6 outcast spellstorms, and 6 outcast deathhands all putting down massive hurt on you (meanwhile the Kanaxai is running crazy through the party killing everything in his path).

That is what I'm trying to do, but in a nice friendly environment. People who are about to embark on a 1.5-2 hr long mission want to know that the people they are going with are up to the task. Mistakes are deadly and can lead to party wipes and nobody likes that.

Update ('cause I know you're all just dying to know ):

Masters in Consulate Dock mission with a PuG first time out even though our live monk and I were lagging severely at the very end. Found and cleared the Sanctuary, saved Koss' sorry arse and then took a leisurely stroll up to the SF boss.

After what everyone here had said, I really expected a serious fight. After all, my heroes were only level 14 (and a couple of them had dp - if heros have dp). The boss fell with one round of three spells (Liq flame, Fireball, and Embers), might have conjured a little Fire Storm on his party, as well, as a warm-up . The Mesa and Stone Crag helping him were far more trouble although they, too, fell. Yes, I did take Backfire on two of my heroes but only used it once as it wasn't very high level/efficient (obviously).

All in all, I canNOT see how SF is all that ohmygodsgottahaveit good. Embers is better, imo. But I'll goof around with it some more. Next stop - Capt Greywind for Meteor Shower. Then we'll go to the Deep and see what sort of fiery death and ruin we can rain down on certain over-confident heads *evil grin*.

~Falcon

And experienced people in the deep/Urgotz can evolve and react to those situations. I finished Urgotz with 9 and only 1 monk and i did tombs with 5 and no monk...Noobs tend to quit whenever there an issue.

Well SF OMGIGHI comes from the "Foes already on fire when this skill is cast are struck for 7...91 fire damage." part of it. Since it has such a short recharge on it you can do massive damage in a short amount of time. Throw in glowing gaze to regain energy and recast and it is crazy. We've gone with 4-5 SF eles and HM was almost a joke it was so easy.

Heh -- yeah well you have to admit that people leaving in Urgoz isn't as big of a deal. If you have a good Rit Lord setting up spirit walls and the MM is doing his job right then there isn't a whole lot of hurt coming your way.

In the Deep it *can* be different. Having people leave is part of what happens, and yes you can adapt (Before HM we used to do 9 and 6 man runs, we know how to adapt to leavers). My point was more along the lines of having to watch aggro and knowing where the popup Oni spawns are. If someone gets the "Oh look, there's a pretty shiny chest over there" fever, it can have some "interesting" results.

Be careful how you judge SF. On it's own, it's meh, but in a group with multiple SF eles, it can really pump out high dps. In Elite missions such as Deep and Urgoz, it can be constantly spammed without energy concerns, thanks to the bip.

I'm still hoping to find a group, but I can't seem to find some time to do so when a lot of other people are playing, and when I won't be interrupted with something/someone here. I hate it when someone in the group has to go afk, and I can't stand doing it myself.

No ones going to screw you over when your puging vizunah square with a flare spamming warrior.

But if you take a flare spamming warrior to a ELITE MISSION, maybe theres some wrong..........

Its a elite mission, have a basic concept of the game before trying. Its not people are expecting you to memorize every pop up, and do everything perfect, its that you don't leeory in if your not familiar with the place, and ask questions if your confused, and flare=bad

Well I finally made it into the Deep. I found a decent group this weekend and my Elementalist tagged along. I didn't tell them that I'd never done it before, but I think I did ok. I was in Room 4 at the beginning and this room didn't seem too tough, or maybe we just had an excellent warrior and monk in there.

Things went downhill from there. At 1 point our 2 Necros ran off and left us. (We were in front of a giant locked gate. We nuked the outcasts on the other side and waited for someone to open the gate who knew how). We waited for the Necros to return and the leader got pretty mad. We made it all the way to Kanaxi though without too much trouble (although I officially hate the teleporting Scorpion room). We couldn't kill Kanaxi because nobody had any strip enchantments skills. The leader had a major temper tantrum and blamed the SS in the group for not bringing shivers. Personally, I blame the leader. The SS pinged her build before we left and the leader said it was fine.

Since then I've tried to go again, but future groups weren't good at all. The best one made it to the Scorpion room before wiping. I ended up in Room 3 this time and I did horrible. I didn't know the layout and I was running everywhere I shouldn't. Unfortunately most folks in the group were French so I couldn't understand the directions given. We had 3 English only speakers along and a few dual-language translators. At least I couldn't understand them when they were cussing me out. The sad thing is, I wasn't the worst player in that group.

Other groups I had wiped at the portal selection (yes, it's possible to wipe even before entering a portal. Takes talent, but it's possible!)

My major problem was just finding a NM group I could join. It seemed that each time I joined a NM grp some yahoo would join after me and insist that we change to HM or he was leaving. 9 times outta 10 the leader would switch over, so I left.

So now that I've seen the place, I have some typical noob questions to ask.

1. Ok, the place is littered with nice little flowers complete with "pick at your own risk" signs. Each time we entered a room, 1 or 2 guys from the group pinged "I'm using a Fire Flower" or "I'm using a Thorn Flower". Why? I was under the impression that these flowers were bad for your health so to speak. Is there any benefit to "using" them? Or were these guys just being idiots like the dancing monks on your dead body.

2. Right before the scorpion room we encountered a lot of Irunakdi (sp?). Our leader frantically sent....
"DO NOT ATTACK THE JELLIES!!!!!!!!"
"DO NOT ATTACK THE JELLIES!!!!!!!!"
"DO NOT ATTACK THE JELLIES!!!!!!!!"
"DO NOT ATTACK THE JELLIES!!!!!!!!"
"DO NOT ATTACK THE JELLIES!!!!!!!!"
...while a warrior in the group was of course attacking the jellies. Ok, again why? I know that these guys will just come back to life again as soon as we kill them, but does anything really really bad happen when they die? (And, no this wasn't the jelly at the top of the stairs that needs to live for teleporting purposes)

3. At 1 or 2 points the casters are told to unequip wands. I know this is because if we don't we'll be killed by something big bad and ugly, yet I think I was the only Ele in the group to actually do it. The other 2 just said "why? that's crazy!". My question is this: Is it really necessary to unequip the weapons or is it just essential that we don't attack with them?

Thanks guys. I'm still a Deep newbie, but at least I kinda know now what the layout is.

Flowers will do their nasty stuff until you touch them and 'turn them off'. People ping that they are touching them to signify that they are turning them off since the flowers will turn back on if touched a second time.

As long as the group keeps the jelly at the top of the stairs alive, the group is fine. Attacking others doesn't really do anything truly bad, but it is a waste of energy and does simply allow them to spawn again with fully recharged skills. The leader was probably more frustrated that the warrior wasn't listening.

Unequipping caster weapons keeps enemies from using Chaos Storm on you. The AI basically determines who to use Chaos Storm on based on the person's weapon equipped I believe.



Personally when it comes to Elite Missions, I don't think that the whole group has to be 1337-done-this-a-million-times in order to make it through, but all members must listen and communicate effectively. If a member doesn't know what they should be doing, they need to ask. A group leader also needs to take a good long look at all skill bars to make sure everyone is prepared and members should not argue if they are asked to change their bars. If a member doesn't like the leader's suggestions, they should either give their reasoning for their skill choice or find another group that they will fit in better.

Also, new players should try to play a simple role in the group if possible. Front end professions like Rangers in Urgoz or Warriors in the Deep need to know where to lead the party and how to control the aggro that they face. If it is your first time to try these missions, go as a monk or nuker type character so that you can follow others and do your job effectively while still being able to see the mission and learn of it's workings. Nothing is worse than having a front end that doesn't know the mission. As long as everyone can do this, the group should be successful (unless of course the err 007 gremlin gets them).

Yes, room 4 can be either a) easy or b) impossible. In Hard Mode it is quite a bit more difficult because of the increased attack speed and the crazy Shadow Refuge spamming that goes on by the Ripper Carps.

The gates are opened by standing on these 5 pads out in the other room. If someone steps off a pad, the gates close. The usual strategy is to have the 3 Warriors use recall and then have the SS and BiP sacrifice themselves and get Rebirthed across the gate. (note: order here is important, the SS sacs first, then the BiP. The reason is because the SS packs Blood Ritual which is a "touch" spell. So he needs to use it on the BiP. The BiP can sac using BiP through the gate, usually on the monk who rebirthed the SS through).

Yes the Scorpion aspect is the place where even experienced groups will wipe.

Well, I'd blame both actually. Shivers is key to killing the end-game Kanaxai, but you are correct that the leader asked for a skill-ping and didn't catch the lack of Shivers. Although, it is possible the SS could have switched builds. I've had people ping their skillbars on joining a group and then switching their builds because they want to "expiriment".

Again, not unusual. I make some exceptions, but for the most part I insist on English speakers in my party. Not to be cruel (often get cussed out because of it), but on an elite mission communication can be important.

As far as room 3 is concerned. There is a trick to it. There is a bridge extending out at the back of the room that is a "safe" spot (if you run onto it, the monsters will de-aggro). So, for casters, that is where you want to be. Occasionally you get a bad spawn and you need to wait for the warrior to draw aggro so the casters can run safely to the bridge. (Note: Room 3's aspect is every hit causes a KD, so if you get a mob on you and you aren't a warrior, you'll have problems -- especially true in hard mode).

Wow -- how? The only thing pre-portal is the Aspect of Exhaustion. Only time the party could "wipe" is if someone messed up and realized their skill bars were messed up and everyone resigns.

Again, not uncommon. If you were with my group I'd have been in hard mode to begin with, but I'd still have taken ya and helped you learn.

Using the flower turns it off. Use it again and it will turn back on. So people will ping that they are using them so other people don't turn them back on. Usually it is the warriors turning off flowers because they are out front. Oh, after some time, the flower can/will turn back on and will not shut off, very annoying.

Umm... I have no idea why they'd tell you to not attack the Reborn Irukanji (jellies). Nothing bad happens if you kill them (and I've seen them drop gold items -- just a matter of statistics here though, everything has the same odds of dropping a good item -- even the Leviathan).

As far as the one at the top of the stairs before the Scorpion Aspect. People will not kill that one because it will pull you back up the stairs to the relatively harmless jelly vs. getting pulled down to the group of Outcast Deathhands/Sorcerers at the bottom of the stairs. Since the recall nerf/change I prefer to kill the jelly at the top of the stairs because of his Spirit of Disenchantment stripping recall while a tank is trying to pull.

General rule is killing the jellies is a no-no unless the leader/puller asks for someone to kill it.

This is actually very important. If you have a staff/wand equipped when Nightmares are attacking, they will cast Chaos Storm on you. So if you have all the casters unequip their staffs/wands, you won't have any problems. One of the most annoying things that can happen is have one caster decide to not unequip their staffs/wands and have them spawning Chaos Storms in their wake as they run away from the Chaos Storms (and then standing next to the other casters who are then put in harms way because of this one person). Note: 16+ Chaos Storms on one person is a LOT of damage and will drain energy faster than you can say "gumbo". (Mmm... gumbo).

Please look me up in-game and I'll introduce you properly. Be prepared for me or others in our group to give you tips/pointers and you'll have no problems (and yes, we'll go in Hard Mode with one or two newbs).

LOL, Like I said, takes talent. Basically I was in a very very very bad group. First off the leader asked us to re-order which I expected. He ordered us as:
N
N
W
W
W
E
E
E
Mo
Mo
Mo
Mo

Which isn't quite right. He then starts the mission countdown entry timer amidst 11 protests of "Stop!" "Reorder!" "Wait Reorder!!" "STOP" "STOP!!!!!".

We warp in despite the protests.

Next someone yells 134 134 134 2222. Which we remark isn't quite accurate since we're ordered wrong. Nevertheless we all choose a portal and I think everyone was lined up right.

Room 1's group goes in and starts fighting. 2 monks enter Room 2 and the 2 Necros just stand there. We ask the necro to enter room 2, but he justs stands there. (Yeah, it was the same Necro leader that refused to stop the timer).

He never did enter the room. Room 1 group finishes their part and asks where we are. The rest of us are still stuck in the portal room waiting for the Necro. And waiting....and waiting....and waiting...now cussing....waiting.. ..cussing...waiting....resigning.....cussing...wai ting....resigning....resigning...leaving....cussin g....leaving....more cussing....

You get the picture.

People don't play nm, because HM has better drops, 2 golds at the end, and only takes an extra 20 minutes if the group is good.

Normal Mode or Hard Mode, its basically that the only wipes are at the teleporting room, and the end if theres no enchant stripping, or you aggro all the nightmares. If your group dies anywhere else, it's a terrible group, and even if you went HM, wouldn't have made it through NM anyway.

The Boo PF Dots Alliance killed the Deep this weekend even after noob Warrior left. Its not all bad .............. you just need good allies.



Allies FTW!!

Boo!

Can anyone give me detailed instructions of how to get past the scorpion aspect?
Im an experianced warrior, been playing since the very beging but only recently decided to start doing the Deep because ive run outa other things to do. After many attempts with many groups i have only ever got to the scorpion aspect. I know the rooms up to there off by heart and can do my job reletivly easily.
In the scorpion aspect can pull the onis and first group of outcasts fine, then what do u have to do? Run round and up the stairs to the other flower? whenever we do this some idiot will set the flower off just to make things extra hard. I gess the question is, how do i deal the the other outcasts without resulting in a party wipe, any help is much apreciated.

Also looking for a guild to do deep runs with