Buff Vapor Blade (or hydromancy in general)

With skill tweaks coming up how about hydromancy getting a little <3 for a change? Of all the el lines it needs some extra damage potential. If you look at air magic, it's got AP. Earth spells are okay but do good damage. And fire is a real good damage dealer for el skills (other classes still can have better DPS). Hydromancy is kind of like mesmers... it has a role in pvp but in pve it's pretty gimped. While I know anet will probably tell people who want to nuke to play air or fire, but that's not the point. In most other games, elemental-like spells are usually balanced in terms of damage dealing potential. But in GW, hydromancers get left out and are usually stuck with [wiki]Conjure Frost[/wiki].

Take [wiki]Vapor blade[/wiki]
It's a nice damaging spell but it has that dumb limitation. So how about either removing the limitation or giving the spell 25% AP if hexed with a water hex?

Or [wiki]Ice Spear[/wiki]
It would be nice if it lost that half range limitation that the other spammable el skills are missing. Another option would be to give it like +5...20 damage if the target is within half spell range.

And look at [wiki]Mind Freeze[/wiki]
For the core elite, it does barely more damage than ice spear even though it's got an okay hex with it.

I really don't understand this..... as it seems to be one of the most balanced magic lines.... it can snare, do spike damage, run, has armor buffs, evasion.... how good can you make water before it becomes overpowered?

Try to press B ingame once...

I agree 100% that it is very balanced but I'm sorry it doesn't do good spike damage in general. If you think so, name it's 3 best spike spells.

It has one, and its been used ever since the damage got buffed on a particular elite. Each magic line has its use, but honestly, if water got a damage buff too high, air would be useless, and well if it got buffed to where fire is atm it would be the de facto magic line.

Gotta agree with Lord Oranos. Water Magic already does some very respectable damage and has the best utility of any of the elementalist lines of magic.

As for the spiking skill, [skill]Shatterstone[/skill] is ubiquitous whenever there's a balanced-spike that calls for an elementalist.

Water magic just isn't as useful in PvE. It's the king of PvP though, where skills such as [skill]Water Trident[/skill] and [skill]Deep Freeze[/skill] dominate in controlling the field.

No spike damage? Ever been hit by Shatterstone -> Vapor Blade? Without an enchant, Shatterstone ending and Vapor Blade hitting you at the same time does wicked damage. Not to mention whatever else your party's spiking with.

It's a pvp skill line, end of story.

I admit hydromancer skills arent as appealing to people as earth air or fire.But i think in GW:EN getting a spell thats as decent as shatterstone would be a cool skill.

ok not all ele lines are damage my friend.... i know im an ele, i do believe everyone knows this list but ill put it again.

Fire = Aoe Damage
Air = Spike Damage
Earth = tanking
Water = heavy snare

now each att has some skills that dont quite fit in there but all in all thats how it goes, next people will be asking for fire to have a snare and air to have aoe lol

Oran, if you can't name three, I'm going to assume you don't know what you are talking about. Unlike some other people.

Blade, I agree that shatterstone is the closest thing to a decent spike skill hydromancy has. Still when you compare water to the other 3 lines, it's generally pretty weak in terms of damage and energy costs. Chicken, shatterstone+vaporblade is good when the other guy isn't enchanted (but not as good in pve where monsters have slightly better AL vs elements). When he is you are better off with ice spear.

I agree with your summation of the purpose of the lines, but els are supposed to be nukers so each line needs to have a few good damage spells. Look a warriors. With NF, every skill line has a few equilivalant damage skills. Now you could point out monk smiting skills don't heal or protect, and while that's true it's also obvious that it should be different. You can't say the same thing about water magic where in other games, ice damage is comparable to fire and lightning.

You also have to think about it from this point. Some people out of personal preferance might want to play ice-mages but think they should be damage (a fair expectation compared to other games). In PvP they are asked to snare mostly. In PvE snaring is usually unneeded. Most of the time it's easier and more convenient to kill the mob. So you usually end up taking the best spells out of a blah selection and maybe something like blurred vision or a utility spell like that.


Air needed AoE is also a valid request, but best for another thread.

Excuse me? Shatterstone and Vapor Blade are the only decent spike skills it has, thats the only reason even ONE spike build is made with it. And Shatterstorm+Freezing gust works best when the target is enchanted because of the longer range and more damage while the target is hexed. Don't judge me because for some odd reason if I don't know three spike builds with water=nub. If you want two, look on pvx builds and see them, and if you want the third, look on obs mode, its usually a hybrid runner.

I don't remember anet saying eles are supposed to be nukers period.... and like I said before, if water had the same damage as fire, there wouldn't be any reason to run fire. And since it already has the utility of air, there wouldn't be any reason to run that either.

And Air has two aoe skills from what I can see.

Also, warriors are usually supposed to be all damage, this is coming from a pvp point. And in pve, I see no reason to take huge armor buffs unless I'm going to be tanking huge mobs, they go for casters anyway.

Water magic sucks for straight damage. If you buff anything though, it'll become even more ridiculous than it already is in PvP.

With the last buffs to water magic, it became a very usable line. Before this, it wasnt even used in PVP. The snare and movement controll skills are perfect, but the damage ones do need a little tweaking. I would suggest the following:

Buff both Shatterstone and vapor blade to 10e, 5r, and remove the limitation off Vapor Blade. Or, make it better when targetting an enchanted foe.

Ice spear - remove half range limit

Icy Prism - Increase damage to 90 at 16 water.

Swirling Aura - Reduce recharge to 30, make the block % determined by rank in water magic.

Tenais Prison and Icy Prison - Remove the ends on fire damage condition, reduce max duration to 15 seconds at 16 water.

Mind Freeze - Buff damage to 55 and 55.

Mirror of Ice - affects the next 1-3 spells cast against you. (2 spells at 8 water magic, 3 at 14)

These changes would perfectly balance the water line.

I'd have to disagree with you there. I've had an earth ele since Amnoon Oasis (and I've now done all three chapters, proph first) and she is a nuker all right!

Earth's nukes aren't all damage but they pack in the added effects. For example my skill bar is:

Stone Daggers, Earth Attunement, Eruption, Obsidian Flame, Sandstorm, Armour of Earth, Stoneflesh Aura/Silver Armour, Healing Breeze

Sandstorm is a pure damage and long lasting killer but eruption can blind whole squads of melee foes. When I last did UW I don't think my group would have survieved had those aatax not been incapable of dealing damage. Earth may be heavily defence orientated but it certainly does hurt too.

/signed. Vapor Blades limitation is horrible, perhaps it could be 75% damage instead.

Otherwise Maelstrom is the best water spell

p.s. how do I get the skill icons?

ok like i said not all skills fall in line with the description

also to get icon its [skill] insert skill name

then close with [//skill] but with only one slash.

i agree that water could use some reworking. honestly, how many snares does one person need? there's no variety amongst the water line - snare, shatterstone or trident, vapor blade - that's all you need to know to run a water build. all the other lines of elemental magic have a plethora of nice skills to choose from.

i don't expect to nuke with water, but at least having some more options for spiking would be nice, as eles should be able to do decent damage with every element.

Shatterstone will always deal 50..200 damage (0-15 water), which is pretty good on a mostly support line. Look at Lightning Orb, compare the two and you'll see its generally fine. Vapor Blade is designed to aid in spikes where enchantments are removed anyway (or just to cause a bit more damage for pressure reasons). Changing them to 10 energy and 5 recharge reduces their costs by quite a bit, and allows for more mindless spamming, something that really shouldn't be promoted.

Ice Spear has the highest DPS of all the spammable Elementalist spells. It loses to Flare for two reasons. 1. Water is not meant for its damage. The damage is just icing. 2. Fire is the king on elemental area damage, even if it rarely meets that. Removing the half-range requirement, though minor, will encourage mindless spamming with lower penalties for its higher DPS. You want those penalties to exist (else there is no reason to take Flare).

Icy Prism isn't meant for damage, but a signet disabler. Why would you want to increase the damage on something that strong? You're also asking for an almost 50% increase in damage.

Swirling Aura definately needs a look at. I'd suggest a stance buff to it (lower duration, lower recharge). The block chance is fine as it only affects yourself.

Icy/Teinai's Prison shouldn't have the end on fire damage clause removed. The whole point of that clause was to prevent snares and massive AoE damage, though this isn't much of a problem now that Factions and Nightfall introduced some more interesting skills. Still, Savannah Heat spike?

Mind Freeze doesn't need damage, you just want it for the 90% slowdown. Upping the damage by 15 points on both damage variables could technically lead to Mind Freeze spike (6 E/Me Arcane Echo+Mind Freeze). You don't want to promote degenerate gameplay in PvP.

Mirror of Ice definitely needs to be looked at. It's an elite Reversal of Damage, dealing comparable damage at the same attribute levels (15 extra damage at 15 water over 15 smiting RoD). Pro? Negates all damage instead of a limit, from the one packet. Cons? Spell damage only, enchants yourself only. For an elite that's worse in versatility than Reversal of Damage, there's something wrong with it. Instead of scaling number of spells, just make it targetable, then start looking in other ways to work it. Though this would promote hexway and physical damage, something has to be done with such a poor elite. The worst thing? Reversal of Damage was buffed from 8 second recharge to 6 second recharge some time ago, and this wasn't even looked at.

Fistly note that water damage is very weak against targets with over 80 armor, and that shatterstone is an elite skill, so it is pointless comparing it to loightning orb. Invoke would be a better comparison. While invoke has a loger recharge, the damage output is a lot higher to make up for this. The suggestions I made for shatterstone and vapor blade will balance these skills a lot more with the other elem lines.

My Icy Prism suggestion was over the top, i forgot about the 2 second recharge. However, it would be better buffed to 74 damage to make it the same as ice spear and trident.

A mind freeze spike with 110 cold per hit really wouldnt ever become used. Fistly, these spells cause exhaustion, and considering that, it is a very weak spell for one that causes exhaustion. Right now, it does the same damage as ice spikes, the increase I suggested was to allow it to do the same amount of damage as a single hit from shatterstone. It really is a very weak spell, if you are looking for a snare, Icy Shackles is a lot better.

The point you raise about the prisons ending on fire damage to prevent aoe snares is a little invalid, since there are so many other snares that allow you to do the same thing anyway.

Have you ever read the description of them in the manual? Here's some quotes from www.guildwars.com

That was quite clear wasn't it? It's quite obvious what they wanted when they created the Elementalist. A proffesion that could spike and nuke, with some added capabilities (like wards, or blinding etc). I don't really think you can get it that much clearer.

On the topic again, I also think some of the water magic spells should be buffed (slightly). I underlined one sentence in the text "inflicts freezing cold damage". some of the low end skills (the ones without snares, the ones few people use) should be buffed in some way. Perhaps adding armour ignoring damage (like the earth line with Crystal Wave and Obsidian Flame) at the added expense of longer recharge times and/or exhaustion? I'm just merely suggestion, I don't necessarily think it should be done straight away. I just think that some of those spells could fit A-nets own description

Invoke is not a valid comparison because it hits more targets. You'll notice Shatterstone deals more raw damage, doesn't need line of sight and most importantly, is in a line that isn't made for damage. Think of skill synergy balance before suggesting to increase damage on an already powerful line.

I repeat, it's not meant for damage, unlike Ice Spear, and to a lesser extent, Water Trident. If you're going to go for a water damage build, use them, not Icy Prism.

That Mind Freeze spike kills pretty much any caster, and even if used on anyone with more 70+ armor, they are SLOWED BY 90%! Icy Shackles is definitely not better because Mind Freeze has a lower recharge, and it's quite easy to hit 90% slowdown without a pre-cursor that only the opponent controls. So what if it causes exhaustion? It's a really good skill, and it deals damage, something Icy Shackles doesn't do.

Name me a single target snare that lasts as long as it does and isn't elite in the Water Magic line. That's right, NONE. All other snares are: short, area effects, elite or in a completely different profession. Even the strongest area effect slowdown, Deep Freeze, costs a significant amount, and has an even longer activation time (interrupt bait, no duplicate in case that happens).

Of the comparable snares, you've got Cripple (condition removal), Imagined Burden (requires Illusion Magic), Ethereal/Kitah's Burden (high recharge, requires Illusion Magic) and Crippling Anguish (elite, requires Illusion Magic). And note that these all reduce by 50%, not the 66% Ice/Teinai's Prison offers. After those, you've got Iron Mist and Binding Chains, and they have their own highly restrictive clauses.

While the manual is clear, it never states that water is for mass nuking. It says it is highly manipulative, and indeed, it is.

we got Fire magic and Air magic for dmg, do we really need another one?

Whoa.
Failure.
Utter failure.

Let me recap on your argumentation.
1. You explain why you think Water Magic needs a buff
2. Oranos says that he thinks it's a perfectly fine attribute, if not the best in the game
3. You say it's balanced, but it needs more spike damage because it's not balanced enough for spiking, and ask for 3 spiking skills, as if each magic line should have at least spiking skills.
4. Oranos mentions the obvious spike skills, and says that adding/changing the concept of Water Magic would just throw away its balance.
5. You ignore his reply and just stick to your ridiculous question, which contradicts your previous statements, and demand a response to it, even though the subject of the argument has changed already, namely, 'Would more spike skills in the Water Magic line be a good idea?'

Insider arguments aren't real, they're fallacies.

I expect you to actually reply to Oranos' statement instead of making a bigger fool out of yourself right now (the title of the thread already made me laugh).

Not meant as a flame, just a request to actually think before you post (and/or create dumb threads)


Have you read it and based your way of playing on the manual?
Yeah, let's all ask ANet for Axe buffs because Mo/W with Frenzy and Decapitate isn't effective.
ANet wants us to play it!

PS: Yes, I study law, and it's getting to my head, sorry for the quite negative tone o.o

/Notsigned
Most people already answered why.
Let face it : where mobility is a key to victory (GvG for example), hydromancers are King.

Ok, now I actually completely read your OP.
Now to comment on THAT.

That IS the point. Anet made the different elements for the idea of versatility.
You don't play Water because you want to, you play Water because it has skills that you want to use.
It's as if you prefer to kill stuff using Water Magic, just for the sake of it being Water, and not Fire like any other nuking build.

You're supposed to pick an element for its capabilities, not an element because it's the element you want to use for whatever you want to do.

Don't worry, I'm not offended
However your argument is a bit flawed. Go to the granite citadel and see all the bots/farmers. What build do you think they use? If they'd not want to let monks farm, wouldn't nerfing PS be the easiest thing in the world?

And remember that signet spike in HA?

Of course everything shouldn't be taken literative. But as you can see, the manual wasn't that wrong after all

They use Shield of Judgement for damage, as far as I know, presumably Bonetti's Defense for emanagement. Just like Frenzied Defense is used in TA. Not offensive, as the manual 'suggests' XD

Same goes up for the signet spike... but let's not go there, the subject at hand here, is Water Magic!

[skill]Water Trident[/skill][skill]Shatterstone[/skill][skill]Icy Shackles[/skill]

[skill]Vapor Blade[/skill][skill]Deep Freeze[/skill][skill]Frozen Burst[/skill][skill]Ice Spikes[/skill][skill]blurred vision[/skill]

OMG, UNDERPOWERED!

lol yup nice point radiant..... those skills hurt..... ALOT

Anet's Rebuttal


Even they know water els don't have enough damage spells.


Radient, water trident doesn't do enough damage and icy shackles is a snare only. FB is only good in melee, deep freeze does poor damage for it's cost, and as stated, vapor blade is only useful part of the time. Ice spikes could do a little more damage as well. Blurred vision is a good hex, but it doesn't do any damage THE POINT OF THIS THREAD.

I think they should switch the roles of the four elemental lines.

Like, make Water a really great damage dealer and have fire back down.

So I guess after ANet make water line deal good damage to spike, you are gonna make another whining thread " Why Fire Magic can't snare like water, it is unfair" or " Air magic deal good damage to single target, but it is unfair, I want it to snare like water and deal aoe damage like Fire" ...etc..
I hope you are joking because each attribute line have different role, and you can't act as if the class Ele itself can't deal damage. You want big damage and spike, why don't go Fire or Air, they are also Ele attribute ( or because you only have good water weapons so you request it ?)

LMFAO.

LMFAO.

LMFAO.

~Z

/signed.

I feel my power level just isn't quite high enough in a gvg. Also, can you make freezing gust undivertable? I get pretty sad when that happens. And can icy shackles last 20 seconds too pls? pls i rly need.

so basically ... how about this:

Water gets spikes up to 100 damage on a few nice skills with no limitation for ~10 energy.

Fire gets all its burning skills buffed in duration and the foe gets crippled for the same duration.

Air's AP is increased to 40% and windborne speed is increased to 15e and made a party wide ench.

Earth's aoes get increased in area and deal about 50% more damage, and churning earth is changed to any moving foe gets KD'd.

you happy yet?

/sarcasm

sigh... so not signed. when will people realize that there is more to guild wars than dealing damage.

As someone who plays some form of water ele 95% of the time:

No, leave water the bloody hell alone.

Ice spikes(or another snare)->Rend Enchants->Shatterstone->Vapor blade= Dead person. I feel the water magic line is balanced. Plz dont buff mind freeze, ids farming is hard enough. Of course screwing up pve is nothing new to anet. Also the conjur has already been nerfed due to the warrior abuse.

Oh noes, Healing Prayers doesn't have damage skills! Let's add some AoE!