Lowering Dagger Mastery Requirement on "Shiro's Blades"
Andrew Almond
I had this topic posted elswhere but thought i would post it again since it is something I want changed. I feel secondary war/sin characters should be able to use these weapons. I have a guild.. The Ancient Assassins.. I run mostly as Dervish/Assassin.. I cant use Shiros Blades because of a 13 req. Every other green weapon has a req of maybe 9 besides Shiros Sword which is also 13. It is kinda funny tho seeing the Avatar of Balthazar.. the God of War.. unable to use a weapon.
Kale Ironfist
The whole point of the weapon having high requirements are for role-playing reasons. Shiro himself was highly skilled, so the items reflect that. At the very least, be appreciative that it dropped from 15.
Andrew Almond
A weapon shouldnt have high requirements simply because someone highly skilled was using them. Shiro could have had a 50 in dagger mastery for all anyone knows.. the point is.. anyone carryin around two swords should be able to do more damage with them than they could with a pair of butter knifes. And i do appreciate that they dropped the req from 15 to 13. They ought to drop it two more points too.
Div
Shiro's weapons were set at 13 so secondary professions can't use it. Why else do you think they didn't make it lower? If you want to use his daggers, then make an assassin, not a dervish.
Kale Ironfist
You still aren't posting a convincing argument. These weapons are meant for the highly skilled (read: high weapon mastery), so the requirement reflects that. Just because you want a character that uses Warrior or Assassin secondary to use them effectively isn't a convincing enough argument.
13 is borderline as it is. After all, 12 weapon mastery deals the stated damage on the weapon (and therefore, not highly skilled in the use of the weapon).
Another argument (which isn't the purpose of the thread, but I'll throw it in anyway), is that unless you are of the primary profession that is supposed to wield the weapons, generally, you won't be good at it anyway. D/As lose out Deep Wound unless they use Impale or Augury of Death, and Critical Strikes.
13 is borderline as it is. After all, 12 weapon mastery deals the stated damage on the weapon (and therefore, not highly skilled in the use of the weapon).
Another argument (which isn't the purpose of the thread, but I'll throw it in anyway), is that unless you are of the primary profession that is supposed to wield the weapons, generally, you won't be good at it anyway. D/As lose out Deep Wound unless they use Impale or Augury of Death, and Critical Strikes.
Andrew Almond
why would they not want secondary professions using them?
Qual
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Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist
The whole point of the weapon having high requirements are for role-playing reasons. Shiro himself was highly skilled, so the items reflect that. At the very least, be appreciative that it dropped from 15.
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Andrew Almond
and with your argument... it completely goes the other way with an assassin using a scythe.. u dont have to be skilled to use one.
linh
Because any build uses so high weapon mastery ( 12 points as you suggest) as secondary profession is just bad. ( sword and dagger to be specific).
And you are high skilled with post count and low skilled with using "Edit".
And you are high skilled with post count and low skilled with using "Edit".
Kale Ironfist
If you don't care about roleplay reasons, then you don't care about PvE... so why would it matter?
spellsword
I never said that, I do more PvE than PvP, actually. But guild wars is about balance. One would expect a Tormented sword to be more powerful than an ordinary long sword, as well as harder to use. But for the sake of balance, they are the same power wise. Yet Shiro's weapons are worse than their counterparts. There is no reason for this. If you use RP as a reason, then you would have to apply this to other things as well.
Sophitia Leafblade
/not signed, there the only unique Req greens in the game atm they should stay that way!
Kale Ironfist
They aren't worse by any stretch. Pretty much any Warrior or Assassin using their weapon mastery has it at or above 13. Net result? Nothing changes. For RP reasons, these weapons were meant to be used only by primaries, hence the high requirement to enforce that.
freekedoutfish
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Originally Posted by Andrew Almond
Actually they ought to drop it 4 more points.. to 9 just like every other green weapon.
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Its not just your casual green weapon that any old boss drops at a random location throughout the campaign. Its a green weapon you aquire at the end, after completing the campaign, which your given as a reward using the amulet of the mists.
But because its an end-game weapon, it has to stand out from the other countless regular greens. The high require points are probably meant to symbolise a weapon that requires alot of skill to use, and Anet probably didnt want every warrior running around with the same sword.
The high requirement is also meant to act as a deterant, to make it more uniquely used. It may not be hugely different to most other green swords or blades in terms of stats, but this is how you distinguise it.
At the end of the day, there are countless other green swords and blades that exist at lower requirements. If you dont want a req13+ weapon, then use the alternatives.
But why is the high req so bad? Surely putting more points into one attribute isnt a bad thing? Surely req13 weapons are fine for those professions that want to max out their attributes?
If the green weapon doesnt match your build, or skill point levels, then get a different green weapon. There is a large choice to pick from!
Its obviously intended for a dedicated swordsminship build!
Lonesamurai
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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
But why is the high req so bad? Surely putting more points into one attribute isnt a bad thing? Surely req13 weapons are fine for those professions that want to max out their attributes?
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of course, he also seems like the type that will let the vamp degen kill him and then shout at the monk of the group for not healing him...
Anarion Silverhand
Andrew Almond, you're allowed to go above 1 sentence per post. Please don't post 4 messages after each other, use 1.
As for the thread, please keep it civil and on track.
-Anarion.
As for the thread, please keep it civil and on track.
-Anarion.
Bazompora
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Originally Posted by Lonesamurai
anyway, no it doesn't make sense as warriors aren't meant to dual wield weapons, they have two handed weapons, or they wield a weapons and shield/foci...
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Originally Posted by Lonesamurai
Plus if your running a weapon for your primary profession for damage dealing, you should be running as much in that attribute as possible for the skill damage, wether the weapon is Req 8, 9, 10, 11, etc anyway...
Not even to mention the fact that Assasin and Warrior actually have a good weapon that promotes the use of the class as a primary and for using that class as intended, but fnuh, maybe ANet have no clue about thier own game |
High attribute rank in Strength + 9 Dagger Mastery + Strength attack skills = decent dmg output.
This takes away your arguement.
Moa Bird Cultist
Simple Solution: Introduce a 'Two Swords' Dagger skin. Make it different from Shiro's and possibly have it drop as a gold as well as a green. That way, non sins that want to use a pair of swords can and the roleplayers don't lose anything either. Everyone wins.
Lonesamurai
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Originally Posted by Bazompora
But W/A can dual wield!
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Originally Posted by Bazompora
Never heard of Strength builds?
High attribute rank in Strength + 9 Dagger Mastery + Strength attack skills = decent dmg output. This takes away your arguement. |
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Originally Posted by official Wiki
Critical Strikes
Critical Strikes is the primary attribute of Assassins. A list of Critical Strikes related skills can be found here. In-game description "The chance for critical hits increases 1% for each attribute point spent in Critical Strikes. For each critical hit, the Assassin receives 1 energy at rank 3 and above, 2 energy at rank 8 and above, and 3 energy at rank 13 and above." Critical Strikes skills Many Critical Strikes skills relate to critical hits in some way. The Critical Strikes attribute includes enchantments, basic skills, lead, off-hand and dual attacks, a single hex, a single stance and a single melee attack. Critical Strikes skills include condition removal, enchantment removal, energy management, offensive support skills, defensive skills and skills to inflict Bleeding and Deep Wound. Tactics This ability is often used at higher levels in conjunction with skills that guarantee or increase the chance of critical strikes to link attacks together even when you don't have the energy to do all of the skills because of the energy restored by the successful critical strikes. |
please read and learn
blue.rellik
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Originally Posted by Bazompora
But W/A can dual wield!
Never heard of Strength builds? High attribute rank in Strength + 9 Dagger Mastery + Strength attack skills = decent dmg output. This takes away your arguement. |
Hawkeye
I guess they figured they didn't want to see some elementalist/assasin newb try to pull of some weird combo with shiro's weaponry. Can you really blame them? Now all people who use Shiro's stuff (who was supposedly one of the best assasins), have to be assasins themselves as a primary profession. I don't think there's much room here for an argument.
If they set it to 13, even down from 15, I'm sure it's higher than 12 for a reason. If you can guess that reason, you get a cookie.
If they set it to 13, even down from 15, I'm sure it's higher than 12 for a reason. If you can guess that reason, you get a cookie.
Bazompora
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Originally Posted by Lonesamurai
theres no such thing as Dual wielding in the game... Daggers are Two handed weapons according to the game mechanics... please learn the game your playing
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Originally Posted by Lonesamurai
warriors aren't meant to dual wield weapons
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Originally Posted by Lonesamurai
high dagger mastery + crit strikes = better
please read and learn |
-Loki-
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Originally Posted by Bazompora
You think you're teaching me something? I know that would spike way better. But a Strength W/A is meant to be played as a pressure tank and not as a swift spiker. You're disregarding the fact that a Strength W/A has alot more armor and has inherent Armor Penetration. So ... A/W better than W/A? Only if you consider nothing but the spike range.
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Evilsod
I see nothing wrong with them as req 13. Many people said it. These things belong to Shiro, obviously they thought it would be better if only Warriors and Assassins could wield his swords and use them properly.
And until someone can come up with a good reason as to why you need vampiric daggers/swords when you don't even have 13 in the mastery.... well.
Its not like Shiro's Daggers/Sword is the only 15^50 Vampiric +30 item in the game. Use a frigging Victos Blade if it bothers you THAT much.
And until someone can come up with a good reason as to why you need vampiric daggers/swords when you don't even have 13 in the mastery.... well.
Its not like Shiro's Daggers/Sword is the only 15^50 Vampiric +30 item in the game. Use a frigging Victos Blade if it bothers you THAT much.
Kale Ironfist
Actually, the only reason why the OP wants them brought down is so that he can show off his Dervish with them. Anything else is 'not good enough'.
MagmaRed
Never understood why ANYONE would use Shiros weapons. 15 or 13 requirement is bad, especially when you can consider other greens with IDENTICAL stats.
Shiros Blades(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Shiro%27s_Blades) = Chkkr's Pincers(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Chkkr%27s_Pincers), Faveo's Daggers(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Faveo%27s_Daggers), and Stygian Daggers(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Stygian_Daggers)
Shiros Sword(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Shiro%27s_Sword) = Victo's Blade(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Victo%27s_Blade) and Wahli's Blade(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Wahli%27s_Blade)
Chkkr's, Faveo's, Stygian, Victo's, and Wahli's all offer identical stats to Shiro's, except they are req 9. If skin is THAT important to you, then the USE of the weapons doesn't matter. Run a D/A using Shiro's Blades and no Dagger Mastery.
Shiros Blades(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Shiro%27s_Blades) = Chkkr's Pincers(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Chkkr%27s_Pincers), Faveo's Daggers(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Faveo%27s_Daggers), and Stygian Daggers(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Stygian_Daggers)
Shiros Sword(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Shiro%27s_Sword) = Victo's Blade(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Victo%27s_Blade) and Wahli's Blade(http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Wahli%27s_Blade)
Chkkr's, Faveo's, Stygian, Victo's, and Wahli's all offer identical stats to Shiro's, except they are req 9. If skin is THAT important to you, then the USE of the weapons doesn't matter. Run a D/A using Shiro's Blades and no Dagger Mastery.
Evilsod
Magma that is beyond dumb... people use Shiro's weapons because they want to use Shiro's weapons! Who gives a flying RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO what req they have if you have at least 1 req above it (see Weakness). For all i care my Elswyths Recurve could be req13, i'm not gonna use a vampiric bow when i'm not even at r14+.
Lonesamurai
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Originally Posted by Bazompora
Those were your words I was repeating:Also, Arenanet itself created the slang use of "Dual Wielding", in reference to Dagger Mastery. We all know the gameplay does not implicate dual wielding, but it's still their as an "abstract" term.
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/ignored... foolish mortal
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Originally Posted by Bazompora
You think you're teaching me something? I know that would spike way better. But a Strength W/A is meant to be played as a pressure tank and not as a swift spiker. You're disregarding the fact that a Strength W/A has alot more armor and has inherent Armor Penetration. So ... A/W better than W/A? Only if you consider nothing but the spike range.
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-Loki-
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Originally Posted by MagmaRed
Never understood why ANYONE would use Shiros weapons. 15 or 13 requirement is bad, especially when you can consider other greens with IDENTICAL stats.
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freekedoutfish
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Originally Posted by Lonesamurai
he wants to use it on an assasin secondary with dervish as his primary and of course that means he can't get 13 in Dagger mastery unless he's an assasin primary...
of course, he also seems like the type that will let the vamp degen kill him and then shout at the monk of the group for not healing him... |
Im sure there is some magical build, that makes them oober powerfull and skilled. But unless the daggers possessed some enchantment or buff that effected the primary profession, I cant understand it.
Why not just go Sin/Derv or Sin/? if you want to use daggers?
Evilsod
Never seen the Lyssa's Emissery build? Tis actually quite a strong build for D/A.
Bazompora
Well, in all honesty ... my true reason is to be able to make Twin Saber Warriors. 
(Making "cool", but still effective, builds has become a pass-time for me in GW.)
The whole discussion comes down to the availabilty of a skin, and skins come down to the "coolness" factor. De facto, any motivation around keeping or lowering the requirement can only come from individual desires (since we all know that lowering the req does not imbalance the game). Therefore, Andrew's motivation is as valid as one can be.
Shortly: "it should be done, because people want it" is the most valid argument in this kind of discussion.
Of course, if you still feel the need for another "reason" ... I have a bomb!
(Making "cool", but still effective, builds has become a pass-time for me in GW.)The whole discussion comes down to the availabilty of a skin, and skins come down to the "coolness" factor. De facto, any motivation around keeping or lowering the requirement can only come from individual desires (since we all know that lowering the req does not imbalance the game). Therefore, Andrew's motivation is as valid as one can be.
Shortly: "it should be done, because people want it" is the most valid argument in this kind of discussion.
Of course, if you still feel the need for another "reason" ... I have a bomb!
Lonesamurai
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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
I'm more worried why any profession that isnt primary Sin, would want to use Daggers?
Im sure there is some magical build, that makes them oober powerfull and skilled. But unless the daggers possessed some enchantment or buff that effected the primary profession, I cant understand it. Why not just go Sin/Derv or Sin/? if you want to use daggers? |
MagmaRed
If a req 13 weapon is no different than a req 8 weapon, why do Warriors pay 100K+ for req 8 Swords, Axes, Hammers?
Bazompora
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Originally Posted by -Loki-
Use a warrior weapon. Not only do you auto attack for more each attack by the pure fact that the weapons have a higher damage range, but you also don't gimp yourself with a low weapon attribute.
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Originally Posted by -Loki-
Shiros blades are no different to any other req 9 green with the same stats.
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Originally Posted by MagmaRed
If skin is THAT important to you, then the USE of the weapons doesn't matter. Run a D/A using Shiro's Blades and no Dagger Mastery.
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Kale Ironfist
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Originally Posted by MagmaRed
If a req 13 weapon is no different than a req 8 weapon, why do Warriors pay 100K+ for req 8 Swords, Axes, Hammers?
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Originally Posted by Bazompora
With 12 Dagger Mastery a W/A would dual strike 26% of the time and the dmg (before alteration by target's armor) from single strikes would only be 8~5 less than from a sword.
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Bazompora
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Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist
Instead of having 12 DM, why not 14/16 Swordsmanship/Axe Mastery/Hammer Mastery? You'd be dealing more damage, have less fragile combos at the expense of certain spike chains.
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MagmaRed
As you may have noticed, I think the Shiro weapons are crap. Because of their requirement. As I stated, IDENTICAL weapons can be obtained, but with a requirement of 9, instead of 13. Yes, using these other greens will give you the same benefits for USE, but not the look.
If they change Shiro's weapons again, they need to change the stats so they are in some way better than the other greens like them, or make them req 9.
Personally, I like the idea of Shiro's weapons being 'better'. My idea:
Shiro's Blades
7-17 Slashing Damage (req 13 Dagger Mastery)
+15% damage
3/1 Vampiric
+30 health
Shiro's Sword
15-22 Slashing Damage (req 13 Swordsmanship)
+15% damage
3/1 Vampiric
+30 health
Everything the same, except make them an unconditional +15%. That or make them req 9.
If they change Shiro's weapons again, they need to change the stats so they are in some way better than the other greens like them, or make them req 9.
Personally, I like the idea of Shiro's weapons being 'better'. My idea:
Shiro's Blades
7-17 Slashing Damage (req 13 Dagger Mastery)
+15% damage
3/1 Vampiric
+30 health
Shiro's Sword
15-22 Slashing Damage (req 13 Swordsmanship)
+15% damage
3/1 Vampiric
+30 health
Everything the same, except make them an unconditional +15%. That or make them req 9.
Rikimaru
I was trying to figure out the coolest build I could imagine for a character, and I came up with an elonian R/A with Monument armor and Shiro's Blades, using Expert's Dexterity to spam dagger combos endlessly, while running expertise block stances.
Then I found out, Shiro's blades have a requirement of 13. So I looked around, and found out that the only sword-like daggers in the entire game are Shiro's.
So what's the point in limiting them to assassin primaries? They're greens, and end-game ones at that.
They should have a requirement of 9 like other items of their caliber. Or, you know.... EVERY OTHER ITEM GIVEN BY THOSE NPCs! http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Amulet_of_the_Mists
Please.
If they thought the problem would be that everyone and their mother would use them, why didn't they add any other sword-like daggers to the game? This is just cruel...
Then I found out, Shiro's blades have a requirement of 13. So I looked around, and found out that the only sword-like daggers in the entire game are Shiro's.
So what's the point in limiting them to assassin primaries? They're greens, and end-game ones at that.
They should have a requirement of 9 like other items of their caliber. Or, you know.... EVERY OTHER ITEM GIVEN BY THOSE NPCs! http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Amulet_of_the_Mists
Please.
If they thought the problem would be that everyone and their mother would use them, why didn't they add any other sword-like daggers to the game? This is just cruel...
OI-812
This is right up there with the "fix the bear pet" and other common-sense petitions. And like the others, A.net will ignore it.
/signed for what it's worth
/signed for what it's worth