Guild Wars Guru

Zero tolerance on flaming?

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Wyat Hawke
Wyat Hawke
Frost Gate Guardian
• #1
Allow me to quote the forum rules and guidelines

Quote: 3. No Flaming/Trolling

Flaming is the act of posting messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting. A troll is a person who posts inflammatory messages intended to cause a disruption in discourse and to provoke other members into hostility.

We encourage discussion and healthy debate, and personal attacks are not warranted in either. If you cannot be respectful to others, then don't be surprised if those in charge are not respectful of your continued privilege to post. Guru is getting cluttered with flaming these days. It is really turning into a problem. Most suggestion posts no longer end up talking about Guild Wars, most of it turns into Flame Wars instead. Do we really have to have it like that? just clicking a couple of random threads and reading gets me these replies:

Quote: Hi. Are you retarded? Quote: Is Izzy this STUPID?!!? And my favorite replies:
Quote:
t would be nice if for once the PVP morons actually bothered to stay out of PVE disscussions. Which leads to a:
Quote:
It'd be nice if for once the PvE idiots Why can't we all act more mature? It's sad to see most of the threads go down the drain nowadays.

This post was originally made for another forum, but I think it applies just as much here. Guru needs a fix. So here is HiroAyami's short guide to NOT flame:



You all know what flaming is, however I am perfectly, and avidly aware that you may not know if you, yourself are flaming. And you know what? Thats normal. Flames can be subtle, misinterpreted, or performed with the best of intentions. Like an insult, it can be done without knowing, and I've seen a few instances where that has indeed been the case. Now, that said, what can you do to avoid this, either flaming intentionally or not? Here's what I do.

1) I almost ALWAYS preview my post, review what I wrote, especially if it addresses someone or their work specifically.

2) When reading my work I think to myself, would I be insulted or would I mistake what is said here for something else? I try to make my posts as clear as possible, for my sake, as well as everyone elses.

3) I try to put myself in the readers perspective, from both the person I'm replying to, addressing, or otherwise, and from a standard browser of posts/topics. No one really reads things the same, so this is hardly full proof, but if you think you may find something possibly insulting, try and change it.

4) If I can't change the post and my ideas to be non-insulting, I simply do NOT post at all. I realize that as helpful as my thought may be, if it could be mistaken, it will do more harm than good. People are diverse, we have to realise we're not just dealing with another reflection of ourselves.

5) If I've been flamed I do my best to get up, walk away, or completely ignore it. Flames only bring more flames, if you flame them back, their obvious reponse will be a flame. take the initiative, put out the fire yourself. Why let a simple microwave fire escalate into a full blown house fire? If the firemen (Admins) can be spared the heartache and trouble, why not do it?

6) Realise that the other person may not be flaming you, and in fact my be offering kind words of advice, or offering contructive criticism, and their word choice was simply not appropriate or to your own liking.

7) If you can at all, refrain from getting into the middle of a flame war or an arguement. Let the two people settle it between themselves. Often things are escalated when outside parties, otherwise uninvolved, join the fray. Things get out of hand, and either party may feel threatened, ganged up on, and generally alienated. You may be trying to help, but in reality, you may do more harm than good. However, if you can somehow manage to intervene with a somewhat neutral manner, go for it, there are times when a cool head prevails.

8) There is nothing wrong with attempting to help admins do their work, just don't take matters into your own hands. Sure, you may be doing the right thing, you may have great intentions, but for the most part this approach does NOT work. Giving a friendly reminder of the rules can be helpful, but at times, it can incite a bigger problem. Telling someone to blatantly "watch their mouth" or that they "WILL be banned, etc." is not the way to do it. Let them know the rules, but do not, in any way threaten to enforce them yourself. In fact, simply let them know the rules exist, but do not threaten action in any way, even by saying "I can't, but the admins will.". These are forums, if they persist, PM an admin, or an admin will see it themselves and deal with it accordingly.

9) If you can, at all times, avoid an arguement yourself, but if you do, private messaging is a good way to resolve things in a discreet, non-volatile manner. There should be no reason why a disagreement between two people should be viewed by 50. Those two people can converse via Private Messages, we, the rest of the community do NOT need to see it.



My final thoughts? I believe they've been summarised in this little rant/guide. I'm not telling you how you should act, what you should do, but instead, I've shared what has worked for me, those 10 things usually keep me in line. I mean, I'm human too, I get upset and I do stupid things, we all do. For the most part, I'd like to see flaming in the Guru community go down and, if possible, down to zero.

What can you/we do to solve the problem?
D
Dralspire
Retired
• #2
Let me take the opportunity to comment. If you see posts that you feel do not abide by our rules, click the report button () at the left below the name of the poster and let us know about it.

If you feel that site staff has treated you unfairly, again, let us know about it. We are here to make your stay pleasant, so don't hesitate to share your concerns. If you could be as specific as possible, that would really help to track things down.

Last but not least, here is a list of who to contact.
M
Malice Black
Site Legend
• #3
No post will be deleted without a reason. In most cases a lot of posts get deleted along with the flame posts because you have either responded to that flame post or have quoted some or all of the deleted post. To keep the thread tidy some posts will need to be culled.

I have done it more then a few times in PC threads when people start to bicker about silly little things. There is no point deleting a flame post if the posts below has quoted it is there?

Unfortunately due to the player base that now plays GW and frequents these forums, trying to have an adult discussion without the childish remarks/behavior is near impossible.
Wyat Hawke
Wyat Hawke
Frost Gate Guardian
• #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Malice Black
Unfortunately due to the player base that now plays GW and frequents these forums, trying to have an adult discussion without the childish remarks/behavior is near impossible. It isn't that hard as people want it to be. I mean, check out guildwars.gameamp.com, they have a zero tolerance on flaming, and haven't seen many of them since. If it were possible to make people more aware of things, for excample by imposing a non tolerance on flaming, people are going to behave (alternatively, they will most likely get the boot)

If some other sites can do it, they why can't we?
M
Malice Black
Site Legend
• #5
Gameamp is a lot smaller then Guru which means it is a lot easier to moderate.
jrk247
jrk247
Desert Nomad
• #6
Well I remember a time when everytime you posted something other than a picture in the pic section the mods would be on you right away and would ban/threaten to ban you. And now I see people posting flame/spam comments all the time and I'll even report the post and nothing will get done. I just had one of my friends get banned for having an item with a b/o of 100k in the high end sell section and he got banned for 3 days, I reported a post I saw in the high end section for having a b/o of 100k and a mod responded to me saying it was ok. Now I think it's getting to the point where mods just delete/close posts/threads that they want to and don't actually moderate the other posts. Yes in discussion threads there will be different ideas and points of view, but you need to know when to delete and not delete posts, especially when it states a members opinion, you guys are just getting lazy and delete the whole post instead of moderating it and editing the flaming comments out. It has nothing to do with size, it has to do with laziness. Yes guru is a big fansite, but look how many mods it has. I've reported tons of trolls on this site for flaming and nothing happens to them. You tell us to use the report button and yet nothing happens when we do. One thing that irritates the hell out of me is seeing the same people coming back and ignoring the rules, posting pics over the req. size or .png's. Or people having early bumps or linking to their other sales. Lately I've seen more people getting banned for stuff that isn't breaking the forum rules and more people that are actually breaking the rules getting away with it. It doesn't have much to do with the size, as not all members are active on this site, it has to do with the lack of mods getting it in gear and reading the rules for themselves. I really think Guru needs to redo the rules so the mods and members can get it together.
Gawa
Gawa
Frost Gate Guardian
• #7
Quote: Originally Posted by jrk247 I see people posting flame/spam comments all the time and I'll even report the post and nothing will get done....
I've reported tons of trolls on this site for flaming and nothing happens to them. You tell us to use the report button and yet nothing happens when we do. While it is a sensitive issue, and to be frank we have no 'right' to question the moderating of this forum, or to tell them what to do, I would agree with you on a number of your points as i have quoted above jrk247.

I do know however that there is always a large amount that goes on behind the scenes on a gaming forum, particularly one of this size. It is all too easy for us to see the bad and not the good. I know that there is a lot of good modding done here as well.

So i would like to thank the Mods for doing what im certain is a volunteer task for most if not all, which is often thankless, cheers guys

Having said that, I would like to try and offer a couple of constructive points if i may from my own experience as a gaming forum admin.

VBulletin has a feature for Mods to make a 'soft' delete of a post or thread. This means that everyone will see a short message that the op's post did exist but now only the reason why it was deleted by the Mod shows.

I would also urge Mods to then notify the op briefly to let them know that their post was deleted and why. This can easily be done when marking a violation against an offending user, which in turn keeps track of repeat offenders.

If the op isnt informed then all that the modding is doing is firefighting, surely it is much better and more efficient to combat the issue at source...and try and prevent the need to mod again, by informing the op that whatever they posted is not acceptable and future reoccurances could lead to temp bans etc
Additionally, a soft delete is trackable and restorable if required.

When people know they can get away with posting the flames/trolls/meaningless babble/spam that they do then, particularly on a large forum like this, things can get out of hand very quickly.
We, the decent users enjoy this forum and appreciate it and care enough that we will use the report feature to try keep the trash talk down. Hopefully users and Mods can work together and appreciate each other in this regards. Cheers

Just a wee reminder to us all:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru Form Rules
every post and thread should add to knowledge rather than mislead or contribute to the confusion.

We reserve the right to edit posts for format, content, or clarity, without notice.

However, we will not intentionally change the substance of what anyone says, and will inform you if we make any substantial changes.

Posting meaningless deranged psychobabble with no substantial merit or posts that do not contribute to the thread discussion will more than likely be deleted without notice.

Any post which violates civilized standards of decency or good conduct will be deleted immediately and without any further notice.

Repeat offenders will be temporarily or permanently banned.

Flaming is the act of posting messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting. A troll is a person who posts inflammatory messages intended to cause a disruption in discourse and to provoke other members into hostility.

..personal attacks are not warranted...

If you cannot be respectful to others, then don't be surprised if those in charge are not respectful of your continued privilege to post.

...do not spam these forums, or such posts will be deleted. To determine whether or not your post can be considered as spam, ask,
"does this add to or advance the thread in a constructive way." If you answer, "yes," then chances are, you're good to go. Examples of spam posts include: “Yeah me too," "lol”, “that’s what I wanted to say…,” “what the guy above said…”, etc.

A warning may or may not be issued for violating any of these guidelines. When you have accumulated a substantial amount of warnings... you will be temporarily banned...If you break the rules repeatedly you will be permanently banned, no questions, no excuses.
M
Malice Black
Site Legend
• #8
Quote: Originally Posted by jrk247
Well I remember a time when everytime you posted something other than a picture in the pic section the mods would be on you right away and would ban/threaten to ban you. And now I see people posting flame/spam comments all the time and I'll even report the post and nothing will get done. I just had one of my friends get banned for having an item with a b/o of 100k in the high end sell section and he got banned for 3 days, I reported a post I saw in the high end section for having a b/o of 100k and a mod responded to me saying it was ok. Now I think it's getting to the point where mods just delete/close posts/threads that they want to and don't actually moderate the other posts. Yes in discussion threads there will be different ideas and points of view, but you need to know when to delete and not delete posts, especially when it states a members opinion, you guys are just getting lazy and delete the whole post instead of moderating it and editing the flaming comments out. It has nothing to do with size, it has to do with laziness. Yes guru is a big fansite, but look how many mods it has. I've reported tons of trolls on this site for flaming and nothing happens to them. You tell us to use the report button and yet nothing happens when we do. One thing that irritates the hell out of me is seeing the same people coming back and ignoring the rules, posting pics over the req. size or .png's. Or people having early bumps or linking to their other sales. Lately I've seen more people getting banned for stuff that isn't breaking the forum rules and more people that are actually breaking the rules getting away with it. It doesn't have much to do with the size, as not all members are active on this site, it has to do with the lack of mods getting it in gear and reading the rules for themselves. I really think Guru needs to redo the rules so the mods and members can get it together. A person will not be banned for having a B/O of 100k in High End sell (however this rule is due to change shortly) there would have been another violation in the thread. PM me a link to that persons account and I will look into it.

Early bumping is a problem but in our defense people complain about such things but they don't do anything about it. I logged in this morning, checked my e-mail for reported posts..nothing, yet I go into High End and spot 3 violations within 5 minutes. We are not super human, modding the forum with the most traffic per day requires help from users also.

As for linking to other sell threads, this is perfectly fine as long as it's not a link to the auction site. A link tot he auction site isn't allowed and should be reported.
RTSFirebat
RTSFirebat
The Humanoid Typhoon
• #9
On the note, on the Screenshot Expo section of the forum, we do our best to remove spam and flaming wherever possible. We have clear rules in regards to screenshot sizes and flaming, but people will continue to ignore them nevertheless. We keep things under control as best we can, be again unless people report issues we can't deal with them.

On average I get 3 reported posts a week, and yet I edited and deleted double that amount on a daily basis.

If people report calls, we can deal with them. I don't feel that is happening enough.
M
Malice Black
Site Legend
• #10
I've received less then 5 reported posts in 2-3 days..that's poor. I could find that many violations in a matter of minutes.

Can you see the trend?
Gawa
Gawa
Frost Gate Guardian
• #11
^^ Exactly, MB; we the community definitely needs to start pulling its weight more and reporting more when it needs to be done. As you guys say you do indeed act on reported posts which is great.

Im thinking that is mostly Mods and a few of us reading this thread though and not the ones that need to hear it heh :P

Maybe an announcement or post in Riverside containing something like what i quoted from the rules might help, along with a reminder for people to use the report rather than escalate the bad threads. even if a dozen or so more people benefit from it and start helping you guys more with reporting..it would be worth it. Little by little..

cheers
M
Malice Black
Site Legend
• #12
In many cases when people do actually report they decide in their 'wisdom' they need to add a sarcastic comment just for the hell of it, that doesn't help at all. But, what can we do? posting a sticky is pointless, the stickys generally tend to be the least read post on the front page.
Mesmer in Need
Mesmer in Need
Forge Runner
• #13
I think there is an abundance of flaming here, but again a lack of moderation. I know it is hard to look through every post for flaming, but there are alot of moderatiors, and i feel that more flaming should be caught.
jrk247
jrk247
Desert Nomad
• #14
Well you also have to realise that the members aren't supposed to report posts (even though they can), they are not mods. It is the mods job to look through threads and moderate them not to just wait for reports to come in. And even if you only deal with a few posts a day, you have to realise that you aren't the only mod (hopfully).
I
Inde
Site Contributor
• #15
jrk, we are volunteers here. When we ask for a round of volunteers to help us out in becoming moderators, it's usually those who are all ready involved and helping us in the community.

This is not a job. It is not our "responsibility" or our "job" to oversee the community. These are devoted volunteers who have gone just a step further in helping and participating in the community then the average player. The have full-time jobs/schooling, families, hobbies, and they play Guild Wars as well. Your arguement would only hold weight if we were a company. We aren't. We are just a fansite and we depend on not only our volunteer moderators but we hope that the community cares just as much and wants to see a site that they visit improve.
jrk247
jrk247
Desert Nomad
• #16
Yeah I know it's volunteer and I know people can't be at the computer 24/7. But I know it is possible to lower the amount of trolls/spammers on this forum, it has been done before. I even hated RTS at the time when he/she was being a good mod, deleting all spam in the Screenshot Expo, but I realised why RTS was doing it. And it has gotten really bad now, I see the same people doing the same crap and breaking the same rules even after they've been banned/warned. I know members hate it when mods delete posts and close threads but it stops the spam level, people get the idea after awhile. But now it's at the point where people think it's ok to just spam/flame threads they do it all the time, everyone else does it so they think it's ok. Just read through the SR thread and other prolonged discussion threads.

I know that moderating a fansite is volunteer, but there are volunteer jobs in real life that you don't get paid for, you still have to do your job or what's the point of having it? I know that Mods like to play the game just like members and they choose to take time out of playing to maintain/help maintain this fansite. The flaming on guru has been getting really bad lately, and what is even worse is the amount of people that think it's ok to do so.
I
Inde
Site Contributor
• #17
jrk, the issue is that the flaming is bad everywhere right now. It's not a Guru issue. It's on blogs, guild sites, and other fansites. It's an issue we are all trying to address and unfortunately the community is restless right now. YES! I blamed it on all of you. We can manage and try to control but we believe in giving people a voice. If the overall opinion of the community right now is negative, we can not supress or try to silence those who want to speak out. We can get rid of the most over-the-top ones but please remember, that just because we can't be reading all the thread all the time, I can tell you that nearly 150+ posts have been deleted in the Soul Reaping thread. I just got done deleting out 23 posts in a 4 page thread on the newest update.

So while we our monitoring volatile threads, this takes up time, so maybe more spamming is getting through. This is why we ask for your help in reporting posts! Now I've been told that you do report posts jrk, so thank you. If you see an issue that you believe is not being resolved in a thread then please PM myself or a mod in that forum and it will spotlight it even more.

We are doing our best but with nearly 6000 posts a day, no, there is no way for us to monitor and manage every single thread.
M
Malice Black
Site Legend
• #18
The flaming and general abuse in Riverside is pretty horrendous, maybe it's time to fully introduce mini-bans to that forum? I know we do occasionally ban the odd 1 or 2 users (normally the same faces) but perhaps it's time we got mean, Ventari's soon shaped up when 0 tolerance was introduced.

I know people will moan (don't they always?), but the vocal trolls do make that forum a nightmare for someone who just wants to catch up on the latest news and TRY to have a discussion with their fellow gamers.
Wyat Hawke
Wyat Hawke
Frost Gate Guardian
• #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Malice Black
The flaming and general abuse in Riverside is pretty horrendous, maybe it's time to fully introduce mini-bans to that forum? I know we do occasionally ban the odd 1 or 2 users (normally the same faces) but perhaps it's time we got mean, Ventari's soon shaped up when 0 tolerance was introduced.

I know people will moan (don't they always?), but the vocal trolls do make that forum a nightmare for someone who just wants to catch up on the latest news and TRY to have a discussion with their fellow gamers. I think bans should be applied. People just don't care no more. You flame, and then what? Well, the admin deletes your post, or remove the content. That doesn't solve the problem, now they can just continue to flame somewhere else, or just post a new one in the same thread. We need those bans

I do not know how long a mini ban is, but I'd wish it was 2 weeks. In terms of an MMORPG, that is a long time. People need to be more aware of the rules, and they need to know that if they flame, there will actually be responses to that! there is so many flames that just gets lost in the mist. It doesn't matter if it's a credible member or not, a flame is a flame.

Posting this thread here was actually a bad idea, here we only get responses from the truly dedicated ones and the admins. May I request to re-post in Sardelac or the Riverside in? Alternatively, I'd wish that you all made a public announcement in all threads stating that flaming will result in bans.

I vote yes for a zero tolerance rule on flaming.
jrk247
jrk247
Desert Nomad
• #20
I have noticed a few more bans being issued for repeat offenders (good job on that), one thing that I've noticed though is that people are making a lot of sarcastic comments and not making people aware that they are being sarcastic which usually leads in a half page spam/flame fest, "selling sarcasm detector" etc. I think the Peeve thread is good and it lets some people vent out their frustration that sometimes leads to flames in other threads.

I agree with the zero tolerance in serious parts of the site like Ventari's. But more laid back places maybe let people settle stuff for themselves and if it doesn't settle soft delete some posts and have a warning in the thread. Maybe warn the people that constantly get a +1 post for saying nice armor/weapon/etc in the "Post Your" threads every other post? I mean we can have mini discussions about screenshots but the same person repeating the same thing over and over kind of ruins it and causes mods to have to step in.

It would be nice if an Admin (Inde) could send everyone a Zero Tolerance on Flaming e-mail or PM, so then you know everyone would be aware of it, and if they flame after that (excess flaming) you can just give them a mini ban if they come back after their ban and if they keep it up maybe reduce the amount of posts they can have? I don't know if that could be done but it would be nice. Or just ban the repeat offenders double the amount as the first ban. I do not believe in the higher rank you are (more posts) that you should get banned for longer, I've seen a lot of new posters flame more often than the veterans of GWG, but I've also seen many veterans flame, maybe just have a set amount of time for flamers so no matter what everyone gets the same ban duration for flamming.

Maybe give the veteran guru'rs a soft delete/edit option to reduce some of the flames/spam in threads. And I know this might get abused but if you see someone abusing it take away their powers and sentence a mini ban for them.

I know it's a long post so /end rant.