The NEW Soul Reaping

Maybe it's a bit early to be posting this cause the update hasn't come yet, but what do you think of the upcoming soul reaping update. Think its a fix or crap... IMO i think they fixed it a little bit, still have some flaws.

Pros:

You can regain your energy faster when mobs die at once.
Ally spirits no longer count as 1/2 energy (no longer have a 1/2 energy gain going to the soul reaping count)
You don't gain energy if you already have full energy

Cons:

You could be without energy for 15 secs (if 3 mobs die at once and you gain all energy from it)
Still an average of 1 death per 5 secs
No more energy from enemy spirits

I think they should have added a little bit more to the soul reaping though. Like you gain 1 energy from enemy spirits (doesn't go to soul reaping count) and for every death over the soul reaping count, you gain 1 energy (instead of 0).

what's wrong with the thread already active?

[QUOTE]first i am sorry for being picky but HOW?????

the whole fight is over and you are left standing there with a full energy bar, 4 pips regen idling because the bar is full, plus any/all +energy items on you.

how does that leave you on empty for 15 seconds since you are full and the mobs being dead are not a threat?

K the only other soul reaping thread I see is like 50 billion pages long filled with the same crap over and over...

I'm not saying you will be completely screwed for 15 secs, but it could happen, especially if you are raising a lot of bone fiends or spamming bip on 8 or so teammates in urgoz or something. Also the fight probably still won't be over. I still think this version is better than what we have now.

I think you should have waited until you found out how well it actually works (or not) before starting a discussion about it. (just like the person who started the other thread)

It's very simple people!
There are indeed a million people complaining about this.
Anet gave a very good reason why they changed soul reaping.
Necromancers do indeed almost had infinite energy, but I too thought the change was a bit extreme. That's why they are still working on it.
There is 1 very good solution. Stop complaining so much!

You gain no energy from spirits unless you control them.

I personally like the idea of the soul reaping energy gain cap..

Basically, if you have soul reaping at 10, you would be able to gain 30 energy every 15 seconds instead of it only triggering three times.

Example: You are at 18 energy out of 30 energy. Soul reaping triggers twice, leaving you at 30 out of 30, with a net gain of 12 energy.

You are then able to gain 18 more energy within the 15 seconds, and after that, it resets again.

It's still a bit clumsy since the idea of a cap seems strange to play around, but I think it works much better than the whole triggering 3 times, and only 3 times, even if you only gained 2 energy each time.

Perhaps people that are complaining should examine other classes energy management before complaining about soul reaping changes.


1. I am a Monk, I have been around all three corners of GW, along with the various forms of pvp. Ask a monk about their energy, even the best monks hit zero/low energy often enough, thats usualy how gvgs are won, taxing the other sides monk worse then they tax yours >.>

Necros have the best energy management in the game overall, since, things die everywhere often enough excluding TA and RA, and HB possibly, due to smalelr size, and you can STILL exploit energy off minions, sprirts, and Necro skilsl that give energy,

dont gripe when you have the top of the heap, i cant tell you how often i would like necro e-maangement as a monk, hell, when i see some necro exploit soul reaping to spam heals a monk could only WISH to spam....

Soul Reaping is fine as it is now, my olias works as he always has, all the necros have gone through the change stil able to MM and beat PVE and play PvP, and SR is still arguably imbalanced now, and even after this change.

DO NOT GRIPE ABOUT SR WHEN YOUR STILL THE BEST OFF BEFORE AND AFTER THE CHANGES, if anything, gripe about it being the most powerful energymanagement in the game.


I understand that necro spells are expensive in energy, but, that can always be changed and tweaked to balance if SR is changed.

I feel the change to SR was uncalled for. This outcry that was cause by pvpers crying that necros were getting too much energy because of the N/RT build in HA. People can explain to you that they really thought SR was overpowering but this change was merely directed at the pvp portion of the game hence why SR now has spirits in its definition not to mention that SR now will trigger 3 times every 15 seconds ?

For a long time SR was fine and there wasn't many complaints about it until we had the ritualist class. Then people started the N/RT build (spamming spirits for huge energy gain ) Within there lies the problem. So instead of just reducing the energy gain from spirits or even give necros no gain from spirits which would have made people alot happier, they decided to just overhaul SR completely.

Now pvpers are crying about hexes. I mean when is it going to stop ? Why don't you just delete the necro class from the game ? Instead of using counters for hexes people will complain and cry that hexes need a nerf because they refuse to change their builds for pvp.

Oh well this is just my thoughts on the whole deal. I think it is just pretty sad.
I'll always play GW because its a great game but they whining and crying for skill changes at some point as to stop. Whatever happened on just playing the game because its alot of fun ?

I agree with you Buster, but just for correctness, SR always had spirits in its description. it used to just give half energy for spirits.

Ok, maybe it's possible. Did Anet warrant you that you will be always able to spam forever anything you want and never run out of energy? Why dont you consider taking an e-management skill, just like any other classes do? Never heard of Signet of Loust Souls, or Glyph of Lesser Energy? Do you realize that monk, mesmers, eles, paragons, sins, rangers are always running out of energy if they spam skills too much? Why do you think you are exempt from that?

The half energy was a fix shortly after factions came out due to the abuse of spirits for energy. Obviously, it didn't work. SR has always been way too good, since day one it's been that way. Now at one point Necro's didn't have any inherent energy management of their own, so I'm sure that's why ANet left it alone till now. That said, necro's now have some energy management. I realize it's hard to deal with having a rather fundamental aspect of your character messed with, but it seriously had to change, necro's were simply way to easy to play otherwise (I don't mean it's easy having to keep track of a multitude of minions) having to worry about energy (or adrenalin) is a fundamental aspect of the game, the necro's deserve to be able to take part in all game aspects

if soul reaping was so superior, then why were monk primaries in more demand then necro monks? - because you guys have devine favor and your heals heal more then ours do.... wow would you look at that, you're primary attribute makes you better at filling your role then haveing a different primary attribute.

what's our primary attribute again? oh that's right energy management -- so what should we better at then anyone else???? anyone??? anyone??? - that's right, the answer is energy management... what next, you going to start whineing that mesmers can cast monk heal spells faster then you can?

you're basis on saying SR is fine has no credibility as you have no experience with it before or after the nerf..... your olias seems to be fine, so we're just bitching for no reason, right?. guess what, my donk was fine with 0 points in devine favor too untill someone pointed out that i was missing out on alot healing because of it.. under the timer, there are many times when the enemies die in ways that completley deny us energy all together - you don't notice it with olias, because it's not happening to you... he can't complain when he gets screwed out of energy, he just waits untill he does have it.

it should be the most powerfull energy managment in the game, it's a PRIMARY ATTRIBUTE. just as devine favor should be the most powerfull healing buff in the game. energy storage should be the most powerfull E-bar buff in the game, and fast casting should be the most powerfull casting speed buff in the game.

we put attribute points into it, for no other benifit but energy return.. at least with devine favor you have some skills you can use, we didn't even have that untill nightfall - and even then the 4 skills we did get are so conditional they are all compleately useless 98% of the time.

with the change that they did to it, it made it so e-management wasn't only avilible to us, it was required to be carried because too manytimes we were rejected our energy return all together... the new 15 second rule may make that happen a little less often, but still promise's to have the exact same problem.

no other class is REQUIRED to bring along skills to do the function of their primary attribute. if A-nets intent is to balance the game, forceing 1 class to supliment their primary attributes fucntion with skills, and not the others - doesn't get the job done.

this is ignoreing the fact that skills we were given to manage our energy only work when the target is below 50% health, standing on one foot, and picking it's nose - otherwise, their compleately useless.

Yeah you're right I forgot about that. Ah well no big deal i suppose the most important thing is that everyone enjoys the game. We got GW:EN coming soon and yes GW2 ! Better days ahead I say

Same Shit, Different Thread....

Are you forgetting Leadership, Mysticism and Critical Attacks? They too are energy management primary attributes. Are they giving back infinite energy? can those characters spam their skills endlessly? Actually at the moment SR is still by far the best energy management in the game. But, it has now some limits.. so there is a little possibilty that if you spam skills like crazy you'll find yourself out of energy for a while. Terrible, isn't it? OMG a necro without energy! what a shame!

And, speaking of conditional energy managements, ever tryed playing a mesmer? or an assassin? please, whining like that, you are just showing that playing a necro you have developed no gaming skill.

Pretty much. Just hope this one's locked before it turns into "PvP'ers ruined my necro QQ" for 150 pages. If people don't understand that necros are fine by now, they never will.

The change hasn't happened yet. Wait until you try it out, then if you have energy problems, give the feedback on specific builds that have problems with the new method. Until then...this is all meaningless speculation.

Wow did you think that comment through before writing it?

Did you consider that playing monk primary allows you to use runes?
That having high energy does not equal efficient healing?

Having the 'best' attribute should not imbalance.

Wow you have to worry about energy. Welcome to GW.

Ummmwhy does everyone mention SoLS? Not everyone has Nightfall and anyway its all the way towards the end of the game. SR has been ignored skill-wise since GW began and with these nerfs Necromancers are having to pay the price for ANets error.

I'm going to be experimenting with a number of builds in both PvE and PvP for the next week and see what this new solution is all about. It seems really bad for PvE but might be alright for PvP.

critical strikes - The chance for critical hits increases 1% for each attribute point spent in Critical Strikes. For each critical hit, the Assassin receives 1 energy at rank 3 and above, 2 energy at rank 8 and above, and 3 energy at rank 13 and above." - 17 skills

-- the primary function of this attribute is increaseing critical attacks, not energy management... considering the max crit hit % from this attribute is 17, and the max energy gain is only 3 for each one of those - it is clearly not an effective E-management source.. out of 100 attacks you get 17 crits and only 51 energy total from them.


mysticism -"Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 1 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism." - 21 skills

- again the primary function of this attribute is actually the health restore, energy management is a secondary function.


leadership - "You gain 1 Energy for each ally affected by one of your Shouts or Chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 2 ranks)." - 20 skills

- out of the primary attributes you accuse me of ignoreing, only 1 of them has energy management as it's primary function... so it's actually comparible

first condition on leadership is that you get energy for every teammate affected by your shouts. that is a condition that you have total control of.. SR's condition is that things have to die, which isn't as frequent as all you people who like to accuse us of haveing endless energy like to make it seem. - what's that our energy isn't never ending? that's right, unless there is a non-stop parade of things dyeing, our energy isn't endless. -- with the ability to move to maximise your e-return, and the control to choose when to use the shout to get your energy, compared to the dependence of your team scoreing a kill - leadership wins out here.

the second condition on leadership is a cap - and not just a cap, but a cap that is stable, and returns energy everytime it's supose too - just not as much.

if they were implimenting a "1 energy for every 2 points in soul reaping" there wouldn't be an argument here, because we would have a steady, relighible source of energy return - instead they impliment timers, that can be triggered in patterns where not only do you not get a huge chunk of energy, you don't get any at all....

paragons would be screaming up a storm too if they were allowed 1 energy for each rank, but only got it once every 5 seconds, or even 3 times in 15 seconds - because the energy management that they depend on would be as sparactic as ours currently is, and as it will still be after the new change. -- there you go developers - you want to see how you broke the necro, give the paragon 1 energy for each rank, but only 3 times in 15 seconds and see how well that class plays after.

-- and yes i know that they claim they have been testing, but as long as the posibility exsists that the group can drop three monsters, then whipe out the rest of the mob with AoE in less then 15 seconds (which isn't unheard of), leaveing a MM surounded by bodies and no energy to raise minnions - the class is broken.




why is that because we are complaining that they made our energy return too sparatic are you people assumeing that we're complaining about not being able to spam? you know what happens when you assume? you make an Ass out of yourself.

- the necro fills 3 rols.

* the first being MM - mm spells are energy heavey, up untill recently they were 20-25e (feinds is still 25 e and compleately unuseible right now). the MM needs energy in the middle and end of the battle to raise minnions - the only skill he spams is Blood of the Master, which due to it's health sacrifice has a built in cap and reason not to spam it willy nilly..... when timers are triggered so that the necro doesn't have energy at the end of the fight, he is crippled and can't preform his role.

* the second being hexing, hex's do damage slowly over long peroids of time, and many classes have skills to stop that damage from happening.furthermore many hex's don't do damage directly, requireing instead for your target to be attacking, throwing spells, or something else - meaning your target can avoid takeing damage by not doing what the hex needs them to do......hex's that do the most damage take a long time to recharge, those that are quick and even remotely spamible are, as above, not direct damage skills. --- because people like to remove the hex's the necro places, he has to stack 2-3 weeker hex's ontop of his main damage dealer. stacking is not spaming, and it's the same with a hex mesmer - a hex necro needs energy early in a fight, when everyone has the most health and are not dyeing. in the middle of the fight, if their energy is not replaced then they can not continue to cast hex's and become crippled after the first volly and can't perform his role. (the 3 in 15 second might actually fix the problem that the dev's created with the 5 second rule here, but untill that update is actually download to us the argument is mute.)


* the last role is a blood spiker - here is the only place you're going to find a necro spamer - except for the fact that energy isn't the limiting attribute in this case, due to the health sacrifices the health bar is the limiting factor. the necro isn't going to be spaming when their on the brink of suicide, reguardless of if they have enough energy to do it or not.



yes i play both classes, and wondering how anyone who knows anything about this games mechanics could posibly have the impression that mesmer energy management is dependent on any conditions. - and again the assassins energy management is a secondary function of their primary attribute, they are not a caster, so they should suck at e-management to begin with.

mesmer - no condition energy renewal
Channeling, Energy Drain, Energy Tap, Ether Signet, Leech Signet -
and these are just the inspiration line


lets look at all of the necromancers e-management skills

well of power - requires dead body (which usually moves you into range of being attacked by mele if you want to be in it)

Reapers mark - requires target to die while this hex is still active

signet of lost souls - requires target to be <50% health

- and that it.

one thing i would also like to point out, all any group worried about e-management has to do, is to bring 1 necro equipted with blood is power and blood ritual (neither of which a necro can use on himself) and everyone in the group truely has ENDLESS energy.

Doesnt change the fact that SR is the best emanagement in the game, followed by leadership and mysticsim..

doesnt change the fact that a team of eight necros with JB, Sprits, and minions can have infinete energy, even with the SR changes.

sure, a monks divine favor makes them great healers, but with a all necro group built to have energy, a N/Mo with healers boon and heal other can SPAM it on everyone, or at least it did before the current SR change, perhaps it does now, im a bit out of date there.

point is, SR is still the best energy management in the game, and still broken.

oh, a Heal other/ jameis gaze used with healers boon beats infuse in big healing, without the health loss.

and a necro group bult for near infinete energy can spam that.

Since you know so much abotu game mechanics, should i point out the flaws in your validity of said skills?

Every other form of energy management ( well use the mesmer for instance since u refered to it) is conditional.

Channeling - requires me to be near na enemy or foe for be to see any gain of benefit from it. This is also an enchantment meaning it can be removed. If i am a monk in the backline casting, liek i should be, i gain no benefit from this whatsoever.
Energy Drain and Tap - requires enemy or target foe to have the energy for me to steal it. Many times while playing the old Edrain boon prot you would hit another player who didnt have the appropriate energy for you to be able to fully benefit from this skill.
Ether signet - requires me to be below a certian point in energy. If i am not below that point, this skill does nothing.
Leech Signet - requires enemy or foe to be using a skill or casting a spell for this to be useful, even then if youre off, you wait forever for it to recharge with no benefit from it.

Necromancers have a built in energy management which revolves around things dying, so yes while it has its conditions and limitations, it is far more reachable in PVE than any other form of energy management. A necro can gain energy from an animal, a player, and enemy, a npc, a spirit, a minion... all of which can die and give the necro energy, this is on top of whatever skill they might want to bring as energy management such as sig of lost souls or glyph of lesser.

While one necro can bring things to help regenerate another players energy, they will both run out and both are enchantments meanign that they can be taken off and will ultimately not keep you with endless energy.

try again.

I disagree with this. Don't know if you play as a Dervish but when I play my dervish I could care less about the healing part of this attribute. I mean, come on. With level 15 Mysticism you get a 15 point heal? Yippee!!! I mean seriously, one swipe at a mob with a vamp weapon gives me that. The primary function is energy management if you ask me.

I still want the old Per nerf Soul reaping to come back with the needed changes and not the timed energy gain. All in all They Screwed Over SR once again Period

I haven't tested out the newest solution to SR yet but before (the first nerf) it wasn't so bad. You just had to play it smart and not endlessly spam skills especially the 15 energy+ ones. You had to take out fiends in your MM build to maintain energy better, and even then you could have them but only summon them during a battle (25 energy is ~half the energy bar for an average necro). It's not as bad as people make it out to be, SR was and still is powerful just with limits. It is one of the best energy managements as long as stuff dies. You guys also have to realise it is a passive attribute, it only kicks in when something by you dies. I haven't seen a problem with SR in PvE. I don't know why we have all these PvEr's whining when I've seen most of the energy problems in PvP not PvE. I guess if you are a MM that endlessly spams minions when they become available you would have problems. Just having Sig of Lost Souls is great for energy return. Blood builds are easy and don't have much energy problems, seeings how with a good blood build you can have Reaper's Mark and SoLS on your bar. Atleast my newest blood build has them. I never run out of energy and at 14 SR I get 5 degen with RM. Only builds that seem to be hard to run would be SS or any other curse build and a MM, but then again if you play it smart it isn't hard to maintain energy.

Maybe it is because I just do not know how to play a necro, but I have noticed that since the first 'nerf' of SR, I still never ran out of energy. It did not matter if I was blood, death or curses. However, like I said, maybe I just do not know how to play the class.

No, that was pretty much it. As long as stuff was killable, infinite energy.
Unfortunately it also applied to spirits dying, even ones that die to do stuff (wanderlust, union, etc), so it was infinite energy in PVP too.

Lol, not saying we should have infinite energy or anything, but some necro builds need it. Lets say you wipe out a group of guys and you only have 35 energy and you are playing a minion master. Cast animate bone fiend and you are down to 11-12 (with energy regen). Then thats enough for a bone horror and you and your group have to move on because they won't wait for your energy to come back.

You play BiP in urgoz. Lets say you have 3 eles, a minion master, 2 monks and rit lord all crying out for energy. You keep giving them energy, but u cant keep giving them the energy they need forever, I mean with this update its a lot easier to do that though.

Seriously, necros in general, really aren't much more powerful even if they had infinite energy. They aren't going to out damage eles, they don't need that much energy to throw a few hexes on some mobs... I mean monks, mesmers, eles, rangers, and all the others would be so much more powerful with infinite energy.

BTW for those who think soul reaping is the best energy management, guess again (ya ok, it could be exploited, but even the necro/hex teams weren't that dominating). Go to a normal pvp game. Lets say you are in random arenas. You can have 13 soul reaping, but it isn't going to help you much. Deaths are so much more rare in pvp especially when there is monks. Necros can hit 0 energy b4 there is a death, there isn't much to help them with energy unless you are going to spend points into some 2ndary attribute, or bring signet of loss souls, which still doesn't help all the time. Eles can manage energy easily with their massive amounts of energy and ele attunments. Rangers have expertise which really reduces the energy for skills. Assassins can easily have a lot of energy, especially with zealous daggers. I never have too much problem on my monk, unless my team is really getting pounded. Necros energy management is conditional on whether people die or not. If people die... its good... If people dont die... then they're screwed.

I find it funny that people still think necro's can endlessly spam skills all the time, take a look at the recharge times of the skills before you even think about typing about how they are endlessly spammed. And people also need to realize soul reaping is a passive attribute, yes it's powerful BUT only when stuff dies. It is good at managing energy only when stuff is under 50% health or dying. So please stop whining and saying how necro's are overpowered, unless you have played a necro you have no place to talk. And if you have played a necro you understand that SR is powerful and not powerful at times. I don't know why people think SR is so good and needs to be nerfed at all, it is one of the most conditional primary attributes out there.

With the new system, if you're at max energy, the counter will not be going. Since the update, I've been at max energy and seen a wall of +13 appear when a bunch of things died.

Frankly, if you're continuously at about 15 energy or lower, you need to rethink your build/play style. Myself, I always try to use the lowest number of spells to kill a target, especially when I'm running my SS build.

Beautifully said.

There are two theories as to how this suddenly got noticed after two years.

1. Hypothetically, there may have been a tournament that ANet had, well lets say big plans to show off to investors, and sadly that tourney was swept by a spirit-powered Necro FotM out of the blue. Evidently that raised some eyebrows and caused the incredibly heavy-handed untested ill-conceived mass nerf to SR, as a kneejerk reaction because of embarrassment.

2. Some slackjawed beancounter (maybe a new hire out for a promotion) in ANet - who has never played a Necro - stumbled on SR and had a math-induced epiphany, roughly stated here as "OMFG NECS CAN GET 863 PIPS OF ENERGY REGEN IF THEY CAN KILL 47.2 MOBS / SEC AT 22 SR"

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

You still have 4 pips. This could actually put you on par with other casters for 15 seconds.
That's still an average of 6 pips at the very reasonable spec of 10 soul reaping, or 9,6 pips at 16
I've only seen a necromancer relying on enemy spirits once, and that was in the celestial tournament eF vs. iQ match, where eF guessed correctly iQ was going to play SB/RI and they gave their reaper's mark necro Holy Veil and he used the energy from the spirits to maintain it on everyone. That's one match in the thousands I've seen.
I can't believe I'm going over this again, but here it goes:
People do adapt their builds to the metagame. If you don't you can't possibly play PvP at a high level. You NEED an RC in this metagame, because everyone has a cripslash warrior and a burning arrow ranger. If you don't have an RC, you're screwed. The RC's direct healing power lacks though, so your other monk needs to make up for that. That's why you see LoD monks.
Non-elite hex removal lacks. You can take elite hex removal, but that's humility bait.
If you have a burning arrow ranger (who has savage/distract), and you somehow manage to keep him clean from reckless haste, spirit of failure, price of failure, blurred vision, and they somehow don't have Aegis, you can interrupt a lot of the hexes, and they're relatively easy then. They'd have to be pretty stupid to allow you to keep your BA clean. Your ranger is going to be the number one focus of their shutdown.
Hexes are overpowered because they can completely shut down your offense with four skills from two. (reckless/price/spirit on a ranger, faintheartedness on warriors, there you go), while still maintaining the room for a standard offense. (Cripslash, Melandru, BA, midline pressure from Reapers, Migraine).
But most importantly, until you've actually played PvP at a decent level, you shout just shut up about it.
Because PvE-ers are too attracted by stereotypes, and just weren't smart enough to see N/Mo's were superior. If you had been to HA during the jaggedway phase, you'd see N/Rt + N/Mo was the most popular backline.
I completely don't agree with that and I don't have any idea who you are, but because you said period at the end of your unsupported statement I will just assume it's correct. Thanks for providing me this undoubtly correct insight.

Actually, people prefer monk primaries because they are better at healing. Divine Favor helps them get the job done without the need to spam too many spells. Necro primary monks suck unless you do some stupid jagged bones build because if your group can't get a kill, the necro won't get any soul reaping, and then the necro can't heal anybody...

You obviously didn't try a full necro group with 2 MM and a BiPer in PVE with 2 Necro monks spamming heal party, heal other and extinguish, or elites like shield of regeneration.
If you had done that, you would have seen that SR was completely overpowered.
Now, it was PVE and PVE is far from being about "balance". The SR nerf for PvP was more about controlled ways to trigger SR - spirits and minions. Stop minions and Spirits from triggering SR, whether it's yours or not, would still have been the best solution IMHO.

My 2 cents:

Make SR triggers with every KO, exclude spirits and minions from triggering it and cap it by SR Level/4 enery gained per frag. You still get a constant stream of energy coming but at a slower rate so you can't spam skills.

Sins can get +4 energy per critical hit, and crits occurs more often than deaths, and still no one thinks critical strikes is abusive. See my point? A Necro could go very well with +4 energy gained per death and still would make some sense in maxing SR. Another option should go SR level/3 energy gained. If needed be, cap the SR Range to earshot/radar.

IMHO this would satisfy both PvE and PvP.

QFT.

This is the crux of the whole matter for me. I don't care that ANet has nerfed SR. I don't care if they nerf it even more. But the way they have nerfed it is completely retarded, imo. There are at least 3 better, more straightforward ways to have nerfed it than with some silly timer limit.

That being said, I have had no problems playing any of my necro builds in PVE since the nerf. Nor have I noticed Olias or MoW having any problems either, so it really doesn't matter much to me.

If there is a bip in the party, then there is no point for soul reaping on the N/Mo's cause their energy will already be full, just like it would be on any other profession. Also don't see the point of 2 minion masters in pve lol... not that many corpses

Also, instead of just nerfing a primary attribute, why can't anet just add skills to shut it down. Like a mesmer skill that disables the passive effect of a primary attribute on any profession for 10 secs or so. That will take down the N/Mos easily.