The truth about soloing with Loot Scaling
Tijger
Yes, this is why its called RANDOM
Wouldn't of been so bad, but that monk had 5 gold drops that run and the warrior had 2 or 3! All i got was 2 stinking purples and a bunch of whites.
manitoba1073
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
OK, I'm completely hypothesizing here, but this feels like what's going on.
A critter has a % chance in any area (which may vary) to drop an item. IF that creature is calculated to drop an item, then the item to be dropped is determined. If it's an exempt item, it is dropped. If it's an item subject to scaling then based on the number of party members there's a percent chance the item will not drop. So... sum it up: Creature Dies. Determine if creature drops item (based on a percent chance to drop). -- If yes, determine what item drops. Is the item exempt from scaling? ---- If yes, drop item. ---- Else, determine percent chance on item dropping based on party size. Roll random. ------ If the random is still in the percent chance to drop, then drop, else do not drop. Now... this actually makes a simple flat percent to get something nearly impossible (or at best rather difficult) to calculate with any precision... but if I wrote the code, it would look something like that. Simpler from a logic perspective. |
Gawa
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Originally Posted by Gawa
I may get 3-4 drops killing them one at a time, compared to 1-2 drops taking them at once. These numbers are not facts and could be wrong as i haven't tested the individual method scientifically yet, I will endevour to gather statistical evidence of this tonight and let you know.
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Cant face anymore tonight so ill follow up with the solo one-at-a-time killing next time as a comparison. (i did kill 2 mobs one at a time and from those 2 sets of drops i cant see any difference, but of course thats nowhere near enough to conclude)
I went 10 times through the same 3 groups of 5 beasts and 1 single beast imbetween them:
Total of 160 beasts. 16 each run.
Number of drops ranged from 5-11 per 16 beasts, with 9/16 being the average drops.
Drops ranged from 1-5 per 5 beasts with 3 being the average.
Total drops: 90/160 (160 being 100% if each beast had dropped 1 item)
total whites/gold - 70
total blues - 7
total purples - 8
total golds - 5
HM gold drop rate - 3.13%
% of beasts dropping overall on each identical run:
62.5% , 62.5%, 50%, 62.5%, 50%, 31.25%, 50%, 68.5%, 62.5%, 62.5%
Avg - 56.25% of beasts dropped for me.
One point of interest was that the first group of 5 beasts dropped only 1 thing 70% of the time.
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
OK, I'm completely hypothesizing here, but this feels like what's going on.
A critter has a % chance in any area (which may vary) to drop an item. IF that creature is calculated to drop an item, then the item to be dropped is determined. If it's an exempt item, it is dropped. If it's an item subject to scaling then based on the number of party members there's a percent chance the item will not drop. So... sum it up: Creature Dies. Determine if creature drops item (based on a percent chance to drop). -- If yes, determine what item drops. Is the item exempt from scaling? ---- If yes, drop item. ---- Else, determine percent chance on item dropping based on party size. Roll random. ------ If the random is still in the percent chance to drop, then drop, else do not drop. Now... this actually makes a simple flat percent to get something nearly impossible (or at best rather difficult) to calculate with any precision... but if I wrote the code, it would look something like that. Simpler from a logic perspective. |
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
That is what and how its being done, That is why we are able to come up with the percentages. Its based on will a drop happen and not on what will drop happen. That is where the others are confused.
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Echuu Ishtar
Loot scaling is ghey, how about we leave it at that.
manitoba1073
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Every creature drops an item, period. The rest of your assumption makes no sense because of this fact. The % chance to drop is immediately affected by loot scaling, not afterwards. You're saying if the item it is chanced to drop is exempt, it's automatically dropped. If that was the case, dyes, rare materials, rare/uncommon items, etc would be dropping like rain.
And this is why you are confused. When's the last time you played without soloing? You'd realize in a full team of real players that drops happen 100% of the time, not some odd random chance. |
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Originally Posted by Gaile
How does loot scaling work?
Without loot scaling, solo farmers received every loot drop, whereas people who played in a party received only a fraction of loot drops. Thus, solo farmers received up to eight times as much loot for killing the same group of monsters. With loot scaling in place, solo farmers still get more loot than people who play in parties, but the gap is less severe than it was before. It is impossible to quantify precisely how much less because it depends on the type of loot farmed and involves some randomness, but here are some rough guidelines:
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- Thus doubling there chance for the drop when they solo farm.
This shows that its still the same as before so you can not add anything extra to the formula
[QUOTE=Gaile;4836870]People who play in normal size parties, including parties of heroes and henchman, will see no difference at all from loot scaling. At the same time, they will notice that normal mode is now much easier to farm, and that the introduction of Hard Mode provides a place they can play where the loot is better than ever before. Thus, people who play the game primarily in parties will simply make more money than they previously did.
What is dropped when you essentially win is a whole different ball game. That is what you cant find out. That is why you guys are the ones that are confused.
arcanemacabre
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. It seems like you agree with me, that your OP numbers are BS (though you prefer to call them "leeway", despite them being entirely made up from thin air). I mean if not, do explain how you came up with said numbers, I mean, aside from a single quote from Gaile that even explains an "element of randomness".
Do you know what random means? It does not mean "it's pretty much 25%, but could be more." It means variable. It's random. There is no leeway. There is no rough average without statistical data. You're not going to get statistical data from a Gaile quote. Do you understand?
So far, Gawa's post was the best because it provides some actual statistical data. We don't have the RNG code that was programmed into the game, but we do have what we actually experience in-game. Consider that before you spout off numbers that you think are true based on misinterpreted quotes and claiming them as definitive.
Do you know what random means? It does not mean "it's pretty much 25%, but could be more." It means variable. It's random. There is no leeway. There is no rough average without statistical data. You're not going to get statistical data from a Gaile quote. Do you understand?
So far, Gawa's post was the best because it provides some actual statistical data. We don't have the RNG code that was programmed into the game, but we do have what we actually experience in-game. Consider that before you spout off numbers that you think are true based on misinterpreted quotes and claiming them as definitive.
manitoba1073
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. It seems like you agree with me, that your OP numbers are BS (though you prefer to call them "leeway", despite them being entirely made up from thin air). I mean if not, do explain how you came up with said numbers, I mean, aside from a single quote from Gaile that even explains an "element of randomness".
Do you know what random means? It does not mean "it's pretty much 25%, but could be more." It means variable. It's random. There is no leeway. There is no rough average without statistical data. You're not going to get statistical data from a Gaile quote. Do you understand? So far, Gawa's post was the best because it provides some actual statistical data. We don't have the RNG code that was programmed into the game, but we do have what we actually experience in-game. Consider that before you spout off numbers that you think are true based on misinterpreted quotes and claiming them as definitive. |
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
LoL
Anyway, the point is you do not know what the percentages are because Anet has not, and will not release them. Because of that fact alone means your numbers are entirely made up. They have to be - because you don't have enough information. Follow this with me:
Her exact words: "The loot scaling for gold and common loot is not linear with the number of players in the party, and it includes an element of randomness, so while the difference is not easy to quantify, it is by no means a factor of eight." Now, by pulling "specific" figures out of that, you are essentially pulling them out of your ass. You are no "mathmatician" [sic]. Of course, neither am I. |
Now you're so close but forgetting the double effect.
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Very good point, Hallomik, I hadn't even considered that. Her comment about possibly earning twice as much might just be factoring in all the loot that isn't scaled. In which case, manitoba is way off. This would mean the loot scaling is a strict 12.5% for a solo in a zone made for 8 players, but then an extra unknown percentage added on for everything not scaled. Of course, if you're extremely lucky, you might make double the amount you could in a team, but highly unlikely.
This is probably how it is: Solo on an 8-player map = 12.50% + non-loot-scaled items Solo on a 6-player map = 16.67% + non-loot-scaled items Solo on a 4-player map = 25% + non-loot-scaled items Solo on a 2-player map = 50% + non-loot-scaled items |
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Originally Posted by Gaile
[*]People who play in normal size parties, including parties of heroes and henchman, will see no difference at all from loot scaling.
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Without allowing for any erregularieties your base chance to even get the drop is form your own quote would be like this.
Solo on an 8-player map = 12.50% x 2 = 25%
Solo on a 6-player map = 16.67% x 2 = 33.34%
Solo on a 4-player map = 25% x 2 = 50%
Solo on a 2-player map = 50% x 2 = 100%
Since there is a small irregularity that is where my leeways comes from. I shown you with your own numbers how and why.
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Otherwise Anerf would have lied about a soloer making roughly double what a person in a full group would make. However the one thing that is wrong is that nothing is added to those numbers as those are decided after it is figured if you recieve the drop. Which is gotten from this quote from the devs through Gaile
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How about this. I can say the loot scale percentage is not doubled, period. You know how I can say that? Because I have proof in Gaile quotes:
"...may now earn about twice as much..." Which I have already quoted, and the only known place anywhere something was said about an increase in loot from being in a full party. Note (I don't know how many times I have to do this) the words "may" and "about". This does not indicate anything definite, at all. In fact, I could say that when I dump my jar 'o loose change on the floor that I may have about $10 in change, when I may only have about $7.
"...loot is not linear with the number of players in the party, and it includes an element of randomness..." Which is the only other quote mentioning anything hinting at how much loot soloers can get. So what does this mean in it's context? Well, I would take it to mean "It's a secret formula, it's random, and although it's not 12.5% in a 8-person zone, it certainly isn't double that either."
Because you can take the quote one way, and I can easily take it another - that quote is entirely unreliable for pulling percentages. Thus my comment "Consider that before you spout off numbers that you think are true based on misinterpreted quotes and claiming them as definitive." It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, it only matters that you don't have all the information, yet you claim to.
Hint: A simple "from what I can tell" or "As I understand it" would solve all this.
phool
Try soloing Nahpui sometime, expect an 80-85% drop rate.
Gawa
ok! I just finished doing the same mobs as before, this time in a full party of 6. Here are both results for comparison, even allowing for any randomness that spreads over a sample rate of greater than 160 beasts (10 mobs), and differences between different area drops, they do reveal a few things quite clearly i think.
Method:
In HM, in a 6 man area, I went 10 times through the same 3 groups of 5 beasts and 1 single beast imbetween them:
Total of 160 beasts. 16 each run.
SOLO
Number of drops ranged from 5-11 per 16 beasts, with 9/16 being the average drops.
Drops ranged from 1-5 per 5 beasts with 3 being the average.
Total drops: 90/160 (160 being 100% if each beast had dropped 1 item)
total whites/gold - 70
total blues - 7
total purples - 8
total golds - 5
HM gold drop rate - 3.13%
% of beasts dropping overall on each identical run:
62.5% , 62.5%, 50%, 62.5%, 50%, 31.25%, 50%, 68.5%, 62.5%, 62.5%
Avg - 56.25% of beasts dropped for me.
One point of interest was that the first group of 5 beasts dropped only 1 thing 70% of the time.
FULL PARTY
Number of drops ranged from 0-4 per 16 beasts, with 2.4/16 being the average drops.
Drops ranged from 0-2 per 5 beasts
Total drops: 24/160 (160 being 100% if each beast had dropped 1 item)
total whites/gold - 18
total blues - 3
total purples - 2
total golds - 1
HM gold drop rate - 0.625%
% of beasts dropping overall on each identical run:
25% , 0%, 12.5%, 12.5%, 12.5%, 18.75%, 18.75%, 18.75%, 18.75%, 12.5%
Avg - 15% of beasts dropped for me.
One point of interest was that the first group of 5 beasts dropped only 1 thing 80% of the time.
Misc - in terms of actual gold pieces after merching all items (except golds) : Avg Solo - 504 gold Avg Party - 114
Addendum - it's worth noting that the party method, although getting less, did complete the exercise more than twice as quickly. Thus in terms of a 'per hour' rate, you could reasonably double the party figures to come close to a direct comparison to solo. In this case one may be looking at 30% droprate compared to 54% ie a solo person can get close to double. (as i think Gail was saying)
(though possibly up to that amount again in actual final gold coin terms) (note - i didnt think to measure actual gold per hour, so didnt time exactly how long it took me each method..so when i say party took twice as long.. it could be a bit quicker. Also..depending on the party formation and skill, a full party could do it a lot quicker than i did as i wasnt rushing it and thus end up with more per hour. )
Method:
In HM, in a 6 man area, I went 10 times through the same 3 groups of 5 beasts and 1 single beast imbetween them:
Total of 160 beasts. 16 each run.
SOLO
Number of drops ranged from 5-11 per 16 beasts, with 9/16 being the average drops.
Drops ranged from 1-5 per 5 beasts with 3 being the average.
Total drops: 90/160 (160 being 100% if each beast had dropped 1 item)
total whites/gold - 70
total blues - 7
total purples - 8
total golds - 5
HM gold drop rate - 3.13%
% of beasts dropping overall on each identical run:
62.5% , 62.5%, 50%, 62.5%, 50%, 31.25%, 50%, 68.5%, 62.5%, 62.5%
Avg - 56.25% of beasts dropped for me.
One point of interest was that the first group of 5 beasts dropped only 1 thing 70% of the time.
FULL PARTY
Number of drops ranged from 0-4 per 16 beasts, with 2.4/16 being the average drops.
Drops ranged from 0-2 per 5 beasts
Total drops: 24/160 (160 being 100% if each beast had dropped 1 item)
total whites/gold - 18
total blues - 3
total purples - 2
total golds - 1
HM gold drop rate - 0.625%
% of beasts dropping overall on each identical run:
25% , 0%, 12.5%, 12.5%, 12.5%, 18.75%, 18.75%, 18.75%, 18.75%, 12.5%
Avg - 15% of beasts dropped for me.
One point of interest was that the first group of 5 beasts dropped only 1 thing 80% of the time.
Misc - in terms of actual gold pieces after merching all items (except golds) : Avg Solo - 504 gold Avg Party - 114
Addendum - it's worth noting that the party method, although getting less, did complete the exercise more than twice as quickly. Thus in terms of a 'per hour' rate, you could reasonably double the party figures to come close to a direct comparison to solo. In this case one may be looking at 30% droprate compared to 54% ie a solo person can get close to double. (as i think Gail was saying)
(though possibly up to that amount again in actual final gold coin terms) (note - i didnt think to measure actual gold per hour, so didnt time exactly how long it took me each method..so when i say party took twice as long.. it could be a bit quicker. Also..depending on the party formation and skill, a full party could do it a lot quicker than i did as i wasnt rushing it and thus end up with more per hour. )
the_jos
There is no way to be 100% certain about loot scaling without knowing A-nets exact implementation.
This probably includes scaling on mob type or location "but they may have to change what and where they farm if they want to earn as much money as they did before."
Then there is an even more complexing factor: "they (solo farmers) could often generate not just eight times as much, but 10, 20, or 30 times as much loot per hour".
We also know "we kept the direct gold rewards somewhat better for solo farmer than for people in parties".
Then there is the famous " Advanced solo farmers may now earn about twice as much gold and common loot from farming solo as they would if they farmed in a party."
Does that refer to loot per hour or loot per party?
Since loot per hour (30x more) was one of the problems.
This probably includes scaling on mob type or location "but they may have to change what and where they farm if they want to earn as much money as they did before."
Then there is an even more complexing factor: "they (solo farmers) could often generate not just eight times as much, but 10, 20, or 30 times as much loot per hour".
We also know "we kept the direct gold rewards somewhat better for solo farmer than for people in parties".
Then there is the famous " Advanced solo farmers may now earn about twice as much gold and common loot from farming solo as they would if they farmed in a party."
Does that refer to loot per hour or loot per party?
Since loot per hour (30x more) was one of the problems.
Oznog
How dare you all argue with Manitoba!!! Don't you know who he is???
LOL. 5 pages of this nonsense.
You know the joke about how arguing on the internet and competing in the Special Olympics are similar?
Case in point.
Funny, funny stuff.
Oz
LOL. 5 pages of this nonsense.
You know the joke about how arguing on the internet and competing in the Special Olympics are similar?
Case in point.
Funny, funny stuff.
Oz
MMSDome
well loot scaling has effected many of my drops in various places but one place isnt FoW. Yesterday I did a solo beach farm for the first time since solo farming was nerfed to see how the drops would be and got a drop from pretty much everything I killed as well as 2 shards. The run seemed like a normal run to me so I wont really complain about loot scaling or any of that crap. Instead of complaining about it work around it and find different ways to make money.
novawhiz
Can someone please answer this questions?
If i bring 7 henchies and flag them away so there names are gray and go solo some stuff with my 55, will i get better drops from have 8 people in my party?
Also, If i solo stuff in hard mode am i exempt from loot scaling or just have a bigger list of items that are exempt from loot scaling?
~Thank you.
If i bring 7 henchies and flag them away so there names are gray and go solo some stuff with my 55, will i get better drops from have 8 people in my party?
Also, If i solo stuff in hard mode am i exempt from loot scaling or just have a bigger list of items that are exempt from loot scaling?
~Thank you.
manitoba1073
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Originally Posted by novawhiz
Can someone please answer this questions?
If i bring 7 henchies and flag them away so there names are gray and go solo some stuff with my 55, will i get better drops from have 8 people in my party? Also, If i solo stuff in hard mode am i exempt from loot scaling or just have a bigger list of items that are exempt from loot scaling? ~Thank you. |
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Originally Posted by Age
What mode did you do it in as I could get the same basically?They would be all white maybe the odd blue and a few gold but the Gates is no longer a place to make a decent amount of gold it might be in hard mode but not normal.Why do you have a problem accepting what this person is saying as he is taking what Gaile has said and applied it?What I would ask is this hard mode or normal then take it from there?It is not like he trying to sent you up the wrong river or road just the opposite or why go through the effort of making this thread up.
Btw in the real world you only use 5 to 10% of the math you learn in university. |
manitoba1073
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Do tell. How exactly do you know this? How long have you been secretly working on the loot drop code for Anet? Am I fighting a losing war because you have insider information? Or perhaps I'm missing something in that quote. I don't see her saying anything about how and when the code decides you get your loot. All I see is a quote about loot drops remaining the same for a full party.
How about this. I can say the loot scale percentage is not doubled, period. You know how I can say that? Because I have proof in Gaile quotes: "...may now earn about twice as much..." Which I have already quoted, and the only known place anywhere something was said about an increase in loot from being in a full party. Note (I don't know how many times I have to do this) the words "may" and "about". This does not indicate anything definite, at all. In fact, I could say that when I dump my jar 'o loose change on the floor that I may have about $10 in change, when I may only have about $7. "...loot is not linear with the number of players in the party, and it includes an element of randomness..." Which is the only other quote mentioning anything hinting at how much loot soloers can get. So what does this mean in it's context? Well, I would take it to mean "It's a secret formula, it's random, and although it's not 12.5% in a 8-person zone, it certainly isn't double that either." Because you can take the quote one way, and I can easily take it another - that quote is entirely unreliable for pulling percentages. Thus my comment "Consider that before you spout off numbers that you think are true based on misinterpreted quotes and claiming them as definitive." It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, it only matters that you don't have all the information, yet you claim to. Hint: A simple "from what I can tell" or "As I understand it" would solve all this. |
So lets see unreliable huh?
loot is now based on party size- check
a solo player will make double what a single player in a group would make- check
Yeap I fully see how you can say those can be misinterpeted.
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Originally Posted by phool
Try soloing Nahpui sometime, expect an 80-85% drop rate.
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Guild Terror
if you use statistics, people will belive you 95% of the time
this is one of the 5%
this is one of the 5%
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
lol now your trying to use the misinterpeted card,
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Well then tell us how you account for the double what a single player in a group would get. Last time I played my drops were not doubled in value nor did they misteriously double the items in my inventory when I reentered town.
So lets see unreliable huh? loot is now based on party size- check a solo player will make double what a single player in a group would make- check Yeap I fully see how you can say those can be misinterpeted. |
I guess that means if statistical evidence disagrees with your claim (see Gawa's post), it must be moronic, as well? You don't need to answer that one.
Loviatar
[QUOTE]
Ensign will make over 1000 test runs and say that due to random factors the average of over 1000 runs is a very rough estimate
he would laugh at the number of runs made as a statistical joke.
a dev stated that the scale was a sliding curve and that over the long term average someone solo would wind up with about twice the loot they would have gotten if they used a full party.
that is from a dev with access to the complete game logs and overall stats on drops for all players the whole time not a tiny meaningless snapshot of a few random runs
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
I guess that means if statistical evidence disagrees with your claim (see Gawa's post), it must be moronic, as well? You don't need to answer that one. |
he would laugh at the number of runs made as a statistical joke.
a dev stated that the scale was a sliding curve and that over the long term average someone solo would wind up with about twice the loot they would have gotten if they used a full party.
that is from a dev with access to the complete game logs and overall stats on drops for all players the whole time not a tiny meaningless snapshot of a few random runs
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Loviatar
a dev stated that the scale was a sliding curve and that over the long term average someone solo would wind up with about twice the loot they would have gotten if they used a full party.
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Loviatar
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the search is not working for me at the moment.
also i have a very long history of not being stupid enough to state something provably false.
it happened
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Loviatar
it was in the dev forum and Gaile Gray can confirm it.
the search is not working for me at the moment. also i have a very long history of not being stupid enough to state something provably false. it happened |
I will research as well, I'm not sitting on it passively awaiting proof, either. As soon as I see something confirming the average, statistical, or otherwise actual RNG loot drop code to provide real percentages, it's all malarkey to me.
EDIT:
I'd like to add my own theory to the equation. I think the percentage chance of drops (average) may be affected by other factors than just loot scaling. As others have mentioned, there may be in place something that alters the percentage chance of drops by how fast you kill multiple mobs simultaneously when soloing (or also scaled with party size; perhaps with a 100% chance drop rate with a party of 8, down to a 50% drop rate when solo in an 8-player zone - completely made up variables to show my theory).
There may also be increased or decreased drops depending on the average level of monsters in a zone, or how that zone is classified as "Beginner" (Istan, Ascalon, Shing Jea), "Advanced" (Kourna, Kaineng, Kryta/Desert), "Difficult" (Desolation, Luxon/Kurzick, Shiverpeaks/Ring of Fire), and "High-Level" (Torment/DoA, Urgoz/Deep, Fow/UW). Theoretically, each area could have its own drop rate percentage (even different for each type of drop) which may be based on that area's difficulty, or even independently controlled by Anet in case an area becomes too popular for bots/players. This might give the illusion many have described as an area being "overfarmed", and suddenly having less drops than it used to because others are farming it dry. We know this isn't true, but if Anet can control drop rates of each area, it would make much more sense. Plus, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to control something like that.
All this adds up to very wildly differing loot chance percentages depending on various factors. Only a huge database like you, Loviatar, claims to exist and is readily available can truly show a rough average for drop rates all over the lands of Tyria. Again, I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all. I am saying I would love to see it. I am also saying there may be a lot more that affects the percentages than just what is and isn't exempt from loot scaling. And no, it has nothing to do with luck, probabilities are not affected by luck - that is proven
Chthon
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
OK Ill try to explain it as simple as possible. Since some people are confused alot on how Loot Scaling actually works while soloing and not soloing.
First all drops are random. Now in a zone that has a party size of 8 you have a solo drop rate of around 24%-28% chance to get the drop. Now in a zone that has a party size of 6 you have a solo drop rate of around 32%-40% chance to get the drop. Now in a zone that has a party size of 4 you have a solo drop rate of around 48%-56% chance to get the drop. Now for preseering you have a near 98% chance since its a maximum size group of 2. That is just the effects of Loot Scalling alone on soloing, with HM involved the only difference is you have a higher chance on the exemptions dropping instead of whites. In NM Its similar without the higher chance of exemptions dropping, while still being exempt. Now for the rest of it. Loot Scaling had NO EFFECT on its own except lower drop rates for less than max groups.Dont believe me look at the first 12 hours it was driving prices on everything up, then Anerf had a OH %^$& moment, and added the exemptions list is what allowed the prices to come down by increasing supply. With HM the only difference is that the chance for drops from the exemptions list is increased. So for all those out there that thinks it was Loot Scaling that helped you, you are wrong, it was the exemptions list. Also mods try to leave this stickied so people dont get confused on Loot Scalling anymore.  |
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
So far, Gawa's post was the best because it provides some actual statistical data.
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
OK, I'm completely hypothesizing here, but this feels like what's going on.
A critter has a % chance in any area (which may vary) to drop an item. IF that creature is calculated to drop an item, then the item to be dropped is determined. If it's an exempt item, it is dropped. If it's an item subject to scaling then based on the number of party members there's a percent chance the item will not drop. So... sum it up: Creature Dies. Determine if creature drops item (based on a percent chance to drop). -- If yes, determine what item drops. Is the item exempt from scaling? ---- If yes, drop item. ---- Else, determine percent chance on item dropping based on party size. Roll random. ------ If the random is still in the percent chance to drop, then drop, else do not drop. Now... this actually makes a simple flat percent to get something nearly impossible (or at best rather difficult) to calculate with any precision... but if I wrote the code, it would look something like that. Simpler from a logic perspective. |
If you're really interested in pursuing this idea, I suggest you look into how the D2 item generation/treasure class system works. I expect GW's system is a similar, improved system, since (1) a lot of the same people made both games, and (2) GW has the same telltale "certain-monsters-certain-drops" behavior. This is a good place to find the details of how the item generation system in D2 works; and this does a slightly better job of explaining the recursive nature the D2 treasure classes.
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Chthon
True. Though, as much as it pains me, I have to agree with Lovitar - 1000 samples is not nearly enough.
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The Diablo 2 drop rate system is all very interesting, but also extremely rational and logical that I don't need to delve into it to understand it. The only thing in dispute is the chance to drop when not in a full party (since the chance of any drop for a full party is 100%). That chance, which is represented by a percentage, is said to be proportionally scaled down the fewer and fewer people in a party. I suggest that the chance may also be affected by other factors, programmed into the code, and cannot be determined any other way than by a release of that code, or averaged by a wide statistical database of drops from a variety of situations.
Loviatar
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Quote:
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linkie to developers statement
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...03#post2751103
the important part
Quote:
| The loot scaling for gold and common loot is not linear with the number of players in the party, and it includes an element of randomness, so while the difference is not easy to quantify, it is by no means a factor of eight. Advanced solo farmers may now earn about twice as much gold and common loot from farming solo as they would if they farmed in a party. While gold and common loot are thus reduced for these players by loot scaling, certain other types of loot are completely unaffected. For example, Skill Tomes are completely unaffected by loot scaling, so they still drop eight times as frequently for solo farmers than they do for people who play in parties. Thus, advanced solo farmers will find that certain types of farming are still extremely productive for them, but they may have to change what and where they farm if they want to earn as much money as they did before. |
arcanemacabre
*headsmack*
Loviatar, have you been paying attention? I know about that quote. That's the only one that's been thrown around like it has some pertinent information. Truth is, it's vague. Read: "may now earn about twice as much..." Take that as you will - but it is very much all about interpretation. The element of randomness just adds to it, since it's kind of a -duh-, of course it's random. Unless she's referring to some extra random code, which is what I theorize about.
I swear, this quote is treated like it's the holy bible of loot scaling. Of course, just like the bible, it's wide open for misinterpretation. Well have at your beliefs. I believe the numbers or the hard facts - this single quote provides neither.
Loviatar, have you been paying attention? I know about that quote. That's the only one that's been thrown around like it has some pertinent information. Truth is, it's vague. Read: "may now earn about twice as much..." Take that as you will - but it is very much all about interpretation. The element of randomness just adds to it, since it's kind of a -duh-, of course it's random. Unless she's referring to some extra random code, which is what I theorize about.
I swear, this quote is treated like it's the holy bible of loot scaling. Of course, just like the bible, it's wide open for misinterpretation. Well have at your beliefs. I believe the numbers or the hard facts - this single quote provides neither.
Loviatar
[QUOTE]
to be honest i have paid attention and in the short run they have to be vague to keep idiots from saying my loot wasnt X2.
what i am pointing out are two flat out developer statements that leave no wiggle room for interpretation.
1. flat statement that the loot scaling is not linear according to party size (how much is up to them but not a flat scale)
2. that is confirmed by this other flat developer statement
so how/how much is vague but those two are straight simple statements that solo will get a random amount more
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
*headsmack*
Loviatar, have you been paying attention? I know about that quote. That's the only one that's been thrown around like it has some pertinent information. Truth is, it's vague. Read: "may now earn about twice as much..." Take that as you will - but it is very much all about interpretation. The element of randomness just adds to it |
what i am pointing out are two flat out developer statements that leave no wiggle room for interpretation.
1. flat statement that the loot scaling is not linear according to party size (how much is up to them but not a flat scale)
Quote:
| The loot scaling for gold and common loot is not linear with the number of players in the party |
Quote:
| it is by no means a factor of eight |
arcanemacabre
[QUOTE=Loviatar]
Ok, so we agree that a soloer will get some random percentage more than a person in a full party will get. Right on! Got no problems with that obvious statement.
So do you also agree that the percentages quoted in the OP are entirely out of thin air based on that statement? That's all I've really disputed, ya know.
Quote:
| so how/how much is vague but those two are straight simple statements that solo will get a random amount more |
So do you also agree that the percentages quoted in the OP are entirely out of thin air based on that statement? That's all I've really disputed, ya know.
TabascoSauce
Whoa. You find funny in the oddest places.
The title from the OP suckers you in, promising the "truth" about loot scaling.
In reality, it devolves over 6 pages to Loviatar saying that they have "flat" statements that are....vague? (and anything but flat heh)
Thanks!
TabascoSauce
The title from the OP suckers you in, promising the "truth" about loot scaling.
In reality, it devolves over 6 pages to Loviatar saying that they have "flat" statements that are....vague? (and anything but flat heh)
Thanks!
TabascoSauce
manitoba1073
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Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
Whoa. You find funny in the oddest places.
The title from the OP suckers you in, promising the "truth" about loot scaling. In reality, it devolves over 6 pages to Loviatar saying that they have "flat" statements that are....vague? (and anything but flat heh) Thanks! TabascoSauce |
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
so far in 6 pages noones yet proven it wrong.
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forgot that part.
manitoba1073
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
... or right.
forgot that part. |
funkytoejams
random??? thats just a lie.... please explain to me how a computer can come up with random numbers (other than having it monitor random natural events, like radioactive decay or weather conditions,etc, and then assign numbers to the readings), i think imho that its pretty safe to say they arent doing this , MATH doesnt allow you to follow the same equation and get a diff random answer everytime.
DivineEnvoy
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Originally Posted by funkytoejams
random??? thats just a lie.... please explain to me how a computer can come up with random numbers (other than having it monitor random natural events, like radioactive decay or weather conditions,etc, and then assign numbers to the readings), i think imho that its pretty safe to say they arent doing this , MATH doesnt allow you to follow the same equation and get a diff random answer everytime.
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Mork from Ork
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Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy
In Java, there's a method called Math.random(), which auto generates a number between 0.0 and 1.0. Yes, math does allow you to have the same programming code and getting a different random answer everytime.
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DivineEnvoy
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Originally Posted by Mork from Ork
That is incorrect - Math.random(), instructs the computer to use a pseudo random number generator to create the appearance of a random number. Computers can not do true random numbers unless, like funky says, they monitor a truly random event such as radioactive decay. Pseudo random generators do a good enough job for general use - but they DO NOT produce truly random numbers.
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Secondly, Math.random() is only an example to how computers may produce a random number with the same settings; there are many other methods. How are you so sure that computers cannot produce the so-called true random numbers?
Qwertyfied
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Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy
In Java, there's a method called Math.random(), which auto generates a number between 0.0 and 1.0. Yes, math does allow you to have the same programming code and getting a different random answer everytime.
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ensoriki
Wow you guys are silly.
Whenever someone asks what the evidence behind your numbers is,
you say, The theory of I dunno.
Is that a computer thing though? Computers don't create true randomness.
If you want random numbers you have to ask an idiot.
Whenever someone asks what the evidence behind your numbers is,
you say, The theory of I dunno.
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Basically just agreeing with Ork here, but one can't retrieve true random numbers via software generators, they are only attained via natural randomness, such as an optical quantum random number generator. |
If you want random numbers you have to ask an idiot.
Qwertyfied
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
Is that a computer thing though? Computers don't create true randomness.
If you want random numbers you have to ask an idiot. |