Ping your build

on the hero vs real MM debate

real can keep better tabs on flesh golem, and not waste a corpse spawning another (or atleast less often)

ai is fantastic with blood ritual, much much better than humans who hardly use it.

my olias runs

signet of lost souls, blood ritual, botm, fleshy, shambling, fiend, heal area, res chant
12 +3 death, 4 blood, 7 healing, rest on soul reaping

yeah, u get some right idiots in pugs,but its more fun sometimes.

and whats wrong with heal party?

i like to save crap builds, so i can giggle at them . ranger with 3 preporations and barrage ftw XD

And they really care Hell knows why?

I haven't been in a PvE pug in about 7 months, can't stand them due to unreliabilty, have been in HA and AB pugs though and usually folk ask for a ping, only once has someone commented on abuild i have had, and they didnt like it, i explained why it was liek that, and they still didn't like it, we went ahead anyway, as they had just joined our AB group, and as usual my build worked well, but they just sucked.

When I ping i listen to contructive criticism, and may change the odd thing if it looks like its a good change, otherwise i keep my build.

Obviously getting into a HA team usually means you need to be willing to change your setup so i don;t mind there at all,

I'm happy to ping my build as long the person asking does so politely, if they demand I ping it then I refuse. If they kick me it's no big lose as I have heros and most times i'm just doing missions for fun anyway these days.

I rarely ask people to ping, I don't care what people run since this game is about having fun. Generally i'll just ask if a certain class has a certain skill if it makes the mission easiest, like SV for Shiro.

Generally it's someone else in the team that is asking people to ping, if I feel someone's build is lacking I always try to offer help and advise, if everyone kicks them how will they get any better?

If the person asking for the ping then starts with "KICK THEM" etc i'll flat out refuse, providing the person with the lacking build isn't being offensive themselves.

And if they continue telling me to kick the person with the lacking build, they're the ones that find themselves teamless.

I'd much rather play / help polite nice people will lacking builds, then elitiests who do nothing short of throwing there weight around.

Just last week I was PUGING it and I pinged my Dunkoro's standard Prot build which i've used through all 3 games with very few problems and an ele in the team said "O well it will have to do". He then pinged his bar which had:

Maelstrom, Arcane Echo and 6 other 15e skills I can't remember them off hand but there was no e management at all in there.

lol at the 'MM''s with flesh golem.

If you don't get along with them don't play with them, it's that easy. It's probably better for them to ask you what your build is for the same reason.

If your build is inefficient, slow or stupid I wouldn't play with you either.

The group belongs to whoever is making the group. You are joining to fill a role of their choice. They absolutely should make sure you ping your build so they know what you're bringing. Unless their suggestions to your build are idiotic, you should make them as well.

A huge number of cases, the pinged bar is ineffective - there are occasions where this is not true, in that case rejoice in the fact you've identified a failure of a group. I learned back in Prophecies as a Mesmer if my bar wasn't good, I wasn't going to get groups as easily.

If people are made to ping and, in needed cases, correct their skillbars, then less people will run bad skills. The resultant run-off of idiots trying to give bad suggestions is nothing new.

I wonder what is good MM ... one that can do awesome job of raising 10 minions and keeping them alive? pfft...

1&2: You just dont understand what makes hero MM so damn good. They can multitask. And to it damn good. for hero MM there is no difference from bomber and master, having death nova on full army of 10 fiends costs them nothing. You can put couple of mesmer interupt on their bar and they manage to do good interupting job. Doing stuff inbetween BotM was ver that hard anyway, besides spamming BoTM only leads to overhealing at great saccing cost.

3: It minion TANK skill. Besides you ignoring original minion wich is pretty good, you get two targets for cost of one, this skill alone rapes Flesh golem as tank (600hp vs 440+400hp). Its capable of damage, bombing and tanking making is pretty awesome. Bwsides, you wont be having more than one or two of theese alive at any time, making bleeing defintelly not wasted or anything. When reanimating, weakest minion is destroyed to accomodate cap so jagged are filler - and excelent one.

(besides, bleeding from them is awesome trigger for virulence.)

4. Flesh golem tanking is overdone by Shambling. that aditional 13 DPS over fiend is overdone by pretty much any decent skill (say hi to virulence again.)

---

Anyway, MM is not rocket science, all you really need is 16 in dead, fiend and BoTM. Anything over that is extra.

To be fair, that Olias build has actually somehow decent idea (it can blind huge numbers or enemies, mess with enemy enchants and do some minor damage on top of that.) Not that its super fine, but i can see it working.

Of course you did bonus, because only parties capable of doing bonus have chance to do mission.

What really happened that you powered this guy through mission.

I see him having invested in 4 attributes (Smite, heal, tactics, sword, maybe even strenght) for no reason.

Rejuv sig is terrible self heal as it does not trigger its bonus, if he used WyS he had tackitcs investemnt which means that he could use heal sig.

Spear of light is hardly damage skill anyone would choose, hell, even smiter monks frown on it. I have no idea what att he invested, but 100 damage (12 smiting) every 15 seconds is hardly something to justify big investemnt in smiting, even if you add sig of judgment (worse damage, kuunavang cannot be KDed btw, KD every 20 secons is not that impresive for elite, not compared to what warrior can do.). Wanting to help kill boss is apriceated, but there is other stuff that warrior can do in meantime (killing spores for example if you fail to interupt that skill. or change adren from luring bow to keep WYS on party.)

Because pretty much anything in PvE works if you have decent team behind your back, any bad build can look like it works in eyes of its user and that person will have no incentive to improve.

Basically, you robbed that warrior from chance to be decent player by explaining few things (rejuv sig, smiting prayers inherent suckyness ...).

HERE'S WHY!!!

I always played with guildies or hero/hench..but on my monk it is hard to do because you have to micro-manage, flag, ping targets all while trying to heal. So I had to pug due to lack of guildies on lately. I did Raisu Palace 6 times the last 2 times had people ping and they had stupid stuff on bars and we fail, on 7th try everyone had acceptable build and we got masters. it is a huge waste of my time to do missions and fail. I DO however offer a build that will work if their build sucks so they can change builds or leave. Were you one of the people I am talking about? Last Necro i kicked had 2 different minnions, 3 corpse use skills, healing breeze, resurect, and some blood skill and their attributes were SR2, DM 12, and the rest in curses...why the hell would you put points in stuff you don't even have skills in????? Does "curses" just sound cool to you? I also went to THK with a RT that had points spread out in 6 different attributes, and 2 rez sigs?? WTF how did these people get that far into the game? Chances are if you don't want to ping your build then it sux, and if you ping and then get kicked over and over it sux. In each group I was in either me or another in the group offered to give a build and the person never took advice..and therefore got kicked. If it is a somewhat ineffective build I am fine with it, but when you have for example no water magic skills and 8 att points in water I got my boot ready for kicking

Pinging a build all comes down to someone wanting you to play the game they way they think it should be played.
Don't get me wrong, a ridiculous build is a ridiculous build and no one in their right mind would play with someone who is using one.
Conversely, tweaking a build in a manner that best fits my play style should not be a problem.
I have been kicked over one, non-essential skill.
I have had people ping a build and demand me to play it.
These people are the ones who cause the problems.
These people are the impatient, elitists jerks everyone talks about.
A true experienced and respectable player, when asking for a build ping, are looking for core skills for the build you are running and that should be it.

Yeah, about that arguement...

my necro is my main char and can do just about everything Necro. MM, Blood Spike, Orders, BIP, SS, SV, etc...

When I run MM I have 2 faves;
1. Fleshy, Shamble, Fiend - I normally try to get more fiends than shambles because I just love the sight of 8-9 fiends firing off a spike on one foe.
2. This is prolly my fave of the 2, OOU with Shambling, Vampiric and Bone. I use Veretta's, BotM and Healing breeze for myself. I cast Veretta's going in and OOU as they start attacking. I normally end a big fight with OOU x30+ on the left of my screen...

That said, I run the same 2 builds on Olias when I play my ranger and I promise you he is nowhere near as good at it as me. He has all the same runes (Yeah, super death) and he is carrying a perfect 2 piece weapon set that is the same as my necros. So no, I think that a good player MM will eat an AI MM for breakfast (unless it's bombing which is another kettle of fish).

As for the ping skills thing, I really take no offense to the request and will ping my build. There are 3 responses I normally get:
1. Cool, thanks
2. OMG, drop x and add y (This normally ends in an arguement and me leaving the PUG)
3. Dude, u should try x instead of y because. (This happened to me when i first started BIPing, I had x skill (can't remember) and one of the monks in the pug suggested I drop it for awaken the blood. I was really impressed and a little embarrased that I hadn't thought about it before. Needless to say we still friends today and help each other on builds all the time)

Bottom line, elitists suck ass and when I do encounter them, I leave... I'd rather be in a pug of noobs than a pug with 1 elitist in it...

I have no time to waste on people who are more concerned over their own individuality than the success of the team.

Playing with friends, we always ping our builds and offer suggestions. There is no worry about being kicked or bullied by the party leader.

With pugs, I'll ping my build if asked, but someone has to make a pretty good argument for me to consider changing anything. OTOH I never ask to see people's builds, it ruins the surprise. I have a perverse affection for carrying bad pugs. Random pug stupidity is a much more interesting negative environmental effect than anything you'll encounter in the Realm of Torment.

Honestly, if you are one of the people that normally ask others to "ping their builds", why aren't you playing with heroes instead? If you're looking for that degree of "control" (especially if you're forcing someone to play a cookie-cutter build), why not just do it yourself?

I never get upset when asked to ping my build. In some areas it's expected and I'd be very leary of going with a PUG that WASN'T asking joiners to ping. (The Deep anyone?)

There are many legit reasons to ask a person to ping their build. If the pug has 2 necros, generally they will be asked to ping to ensure that we don't have 2 mm's. Some missions do really well with 2 or more MMs, but a lot just don't have enough corpses for 2. You don't want to get stuck with 2 MMs fighting over corpses.

If I'm an Elementalist, I'll sometimes ask the other Ele's in the group what they're running so I can coordinate. I'll bring SF if they are, otherwise I'll pick a different Elite.

Sometimes the mission requires a very specific build to win. The Deep is a good example. Now, I'm not going to debate the cookie cutter vs. original build argument. If you want to try a different innovative build on this mission then don't try it with a pug that's expecting you to fulfill a specific role. I think there is room for flexibility even within the cookie cutter team build. A good leader for this mission should realize what works and what doesn't and suggest changes in builds where appropiate.

I don't think the OP is upset over having to ping his build. He's upset at the Elitist jerks that kick for no reason or just don't understand Necro builds well enough to suggest appropiate changes. Of course, I haven't seen the OPs build either. It's possible that it really really really sucks. In that case, someone should be nice enough to explain why it sucks and suggest improvements not just kick with a stupid "OMG! u suk!" comment.

I was doing the Ice Caves mission last week with a few guys in my guild. We invited a random Necro and Monk in town to join us and they pinged their builds. The monk was fine, the Necro was probably the worst build I have ever seen ingame. He had 12 points in Markmanship. 3 Death, 1 Curses, 2 Blood, 5 Beast mastery, 2 Wilderness Survival, 2 Soul Reaping. His bar was
Kindle Arrows
Charm Animal
and 6 random Necro skills from all attributes. He had no marksmanship skills despite his high point distribution into Marksmanship.

Most folks would have kicked him right then. We didn't. We spent about a half hour explaining to him why his build sucked and suggesting changes. He fought us every step of the way explaining why his skill choices were good but he did make changes and hopefully came away a bit more knowledgable than he was.

Some leaders will always be jerks though. You're better off not wasting your time on the team anyways. Twice now I've been kicked from groups in the Deep for reasons that I consider unreasonable. If you disagree then feel free to post here or PM me with why you think I should have been kicked.

The first time was last few week. My Ele joined a HM pug. The first thing I heard was "ping build". I pinged my normal SF/arcane echo/MS build that I use in the Deep. The leader replied "OMG!!!!! You brought MS? MORON!!!!!" <kick>

A few nights ago, I got into another pug. "Ping build please!". I pinged the same build. The leader asked me to add Reveal Enchantments to my bar. I have never heard of that one, but I checked my skill inventory and replied that I didn't have that yet. <kick>

On another occasion I was doing Tahnnaki Temple (normal mode). The leader insisted that everyone ping and then he micro managed everyone's bar. You had to run the EXACT bar he gave or else! Some folks compiled and some got fed up and left. He did this for about 40 minutes trying to get a full group before I got tired of waiting to start and left.

I do have to agree with Razorwood on 1 point. I hate the people who join and insist on kicking another player. I had a ranger join my Tombs pug once and kept whispering to me to kick another ranger on the team. I told him several times I wasn't kicking him. He just kept on insisting saying the other ranger was a horrible player. In hindsight I should have kicked the complainer, but I didn't. We started. Both players were mediocre. He had a legitimate complaint saying the other player was bad, but he wasn't bad enough to kick. The complainer was far worse.

Bottom line. If you're a leader there is nothing wrong with asking your pug to ping their bars, but be reasonable about it. If the player pings back a mediocre bar then consider what you want to do. If this isn't an Elite area and the bar isn't too bad then go with it. If you feel a change is necessary then ask them to change. If they reply with something like "I only own prophecies. I don't have that skill." then work with what they have.

Guess what! Flesh Golem isn't necessary for a MM to have to beat most missions. Players beat prophecies all the time before Factions was even released. Elementalists did just fine before capping Searing Flames in Nightfall.

on the attribute points in a certain attribute with no skills, often its a simple mistake ive made, when swapping skills about..

just politely point out theres no reason to have those points there

Do what I do when asked to ping my build: Load and ping a build that they are expecting you to use, then after they accept it, load up the build you want to play...

Dont let anyone tell you how you should or should not play the game. It is a game afterall. Play it however you want.

Griefing 7 other people is hardly answer for legitimate question - congratulations, you are being selfish prick on internet.

It is team game afterall. If you are not able to get you ego over it, you should not play the game.

That's a pretty asshole thing to do. If you really must play the build that they don't want you to play, find another group, don't grief them because you're an asshole.

Thanks for reminding me why I don't pug anymore.

I have been playing this game for a couple months now, so I guess you can still call me a noob. Gone through all three games, PuG alot (more then I would like sometimes, 5 attempts atarborstone is just sad) But a way to avoid running missions over and over is to get a group that can work together, and hope player skills = their skill bars.

That being said I always ping my skills when entering a PuG and I do ask others, esp those playing same prof as me, to ping theirs. I have never Kicked someone for a bad skill bar, asked to change things or left when PuG look like it has no chance.

But in sharing my build within PuGs I learned alot how to utilize and setup skill bars. I have never played a mending wammo, But ally was know to have a few BAD skill sets in her young days. People's critisism of my bar made me a better player and increased my understanding of skill setup. I still rarely use Cookiecutter builds (I have a 55 ss/sv and Deep ss builds that are tried and true) but I find few people that complain.

My final thought is, if you ping your build it really helps with setting up a successful team. To the elitests, if you would help Noobs, cause belive it or not you were one once too, the game and PuGs could be alot more enjoyable.

When I run a PuG i always make everyone ping their build, and i kick anyone who dosnt have a rez, self-heal, and enough DPS/Support to benefit the team and isnt willing to change their build. Im not wasting my time on hopeless 7 year olds who's parents let them play GW.

It has nothing to do with forcing cookie cutters or control freakishness. Much of the time, it's just to make sure we have enough damage, support, and defense in a team. When I do ask for tweaks, they're usually relatively minor, and usually players are smart enough to understand them as well (despite what you'd think from the average PuG)

For example, an alarming number of warriors ping tanking builds to start off with. Instead of giving them a skillbar, I say "Hey, I promise I'll keep you alive if you focus on smashing things in the face." Almost every time, the warrior pulls out a halfway decent build and we go on our merry way.

At any rate, how do you expect players to get better without any input from other people? Not everyone reads the forums, you know.

EDIT: Coloneh, kicking someone outright is being just as much as jerk as someone who refuses to change or work with the group.

I'm sorry for wanting to check that the person i'm playing with is not a complete moron, my bad.

Normal Mode
Start of Tyria, Cantha and Elona... you can play with naked warriors, firestorm eles and smiter monks...

Midlle of Tyria, Cantha and Elona... you need some armor, warriors must agroo something, monks need to heal something and eles must do some damage...

End of Tyria, Cantha and Elona... mending w/mos must die, because monks must heal stupid warriors that have striped enchants and get 120 damage from emeny mesmers, you need a solid build to tank, no place for all time enchants in a tank. Eles need make huge damage... Monks need to make >fast< and good heal...

Elite Areas... tanks need a real good build that interact with monk enchants to prevent strip, heal and damage reduction, eles need make >real<, >fast<, and >same time< damage...

Hard Mode.

... copy and past elite areas here ...


I remenber the time i play fow 2 times per day... it a 20 months ago... i use builds people say stupid, but 6 months later thats builds are a must...

And i remenber playing elite areas first time with my >godly< old ascalon build and fail like a noob...


Conclusions.

A build that work in one area not work same way in other.

In some areas some builds are a >must<.

No one (good) leader want a stupid in your party. Because 1 hour to find a team, 5 min to die because 1 member of the team not make your job well or make a mistake...

And the big conclusion, some leaders are stupids, worst that a w/mo with mending, and whatchfull spirit agaisnt 4 level 28 mesmers... If you want to use your godly build, be a leader wast 1 hour to find a team ( or play with henchs) and play, dont cry a river...

First time you lead a team lost 1 hour to find a group and someone with a bad build ruin the quest or mission... you will ask for "ping your bar please"

Be a leader before cry a river about "ping your bar please"...

If asked to ping, I do so (if asked nicely, that is). I've never been kicked for not having a pre-requisite build. That's the beauty of highly changeable skillbars.

I've also not kicked anyone for their build if they were willing to adjust it for the mission.

Yesterday, for example: Dasha Vestibule mission. A ranger joined us who had Barrage, Ignite Arrows, Kindle Arrows and Charm/Comfort. On suggestion, he dropped the pet. But I kept thinking, why in the world would you carry two preparations along with an Elite skill (with very short cool-down time). Whatever build he ended up taking in (I don't remember now), he D/Ced, unfortunately, early in the mission, and we went on to win through with Masters.

I haven't read all the posts but I haven't seen anyone comment on the statement made by the OP. That is, you have 2 campains now - I'm assuming prophicies is complete and mostly UAS for the toon your on and you're working through factions. That in itself limits you to what you can run and is something you should always discuss with the group. Some folks are going to boot you just for that reason but others will realize that you can't run their "leet build" because it's just not available to you. As stated repeatly, pinging your build is just fine and keeping an open mind to suggestions and changes is a good thing. An 8 man PUG *SHOULD* be able to come up with some reasonable ideas worth listening to. If not, than as others have said, you're probably better off finding that next group anyway.


elk

Is about it i talking about... you cant wast 10 min or 2 hour (i try to find a complet team to kill mallyx for 1 weak some months ago) and lost all in 5 min because monk dont have prot spirit or have 5 skill that cost 10 energy each, warriror use a axe and have sword skills...
ele have 5 fire skills and 6 in fire and 1 earth skill with 16 in earth...
Not agaisnt about out of the box builds, all againt stupid builds, how many times i lead and take out of the box >>>>>>good builds<<<<<< pugs in my team...

About the MM controversy...I won't go into detail, but I suggest you read my thread from 3 months ago about Hero synergy if you want effective MM Hero builds for NM.

But I'll add that you can use practically any variation of an MM build in Normal Mode and still win. Hard Mode, however, is different.

I have no time for any PUG with an elitist attitude and who kick people because of their build.
I myself leave those PUG's immediately.

I have all the time in the world for a PUG who helps school each other on what makes a good build or not.
If someone says "can you bring <insert skill here> because it's better in this mission or better than <skill x> because etc..."
That's good and many people pick up good tips including myself.
<How many Wammo's use Lions comfort instead of healing sig....>

Remember any mission can be hero/henched (I did THK with bonus and even the one when running 3 crytals between pedestals) so if you have an elitest PUG attitude please do that.
Then there's only one person to blame when you fail....

This is a build i see quite alot:



I do infact see it every time i select 'Zhed Shadowhoof' on my Necromancer. Why is he running such a stupid build? Note, pre-MoP nerf. He is running it because my second account has almost no Elementalist skills unlocked, i couldn't be arsed to train up Norgu and my Necro needed something to snare the 2 Runners in Moddok Crevice.

Is it a good build? Not a chance in hell.
Does it stand in well for another char that could've done the job? Yes.
Would you accept such a hero build in your pug for Moddok? Probably not. If things go tits up in H/H i only mess things up for myself because i'm using a quite obviously gimped build. I'm not about to make pugs suffer for my account only having Nec, Monk and Mes skills unlocked.

There was an example earlier (page 3?) about the Warrior/Monk using Sig of Rejuv, Sig of Judgement, etc. The excuse was 'it got me this far'. Why should i take him? If that build got him that far it means nothing, the build is stupid. Its not 'outside the box' or 'elitist to kick him'. The build should be effective... if the build is effective i'll take them, if its not and obviously has no real thought put into it, they change or leave.

If i pug something i aim to finish it. Good players can play weird builds. People that act like they have no idea what they're doing using crap builds, taking offence at people saying its not that good don't deserve a spot. If your not willing to take on suggestions from players with more experience than you thats your problem.

If you can't justify why your using such a build, then its obviously not that good. Even Healing Hands/Mending wammos can justify there builds, some of them can use it quite effectively.

I ping when asked as there is no harm in it, I am by far not a great builds guy and am very open to suggestion. All I can say to the askers of pingage is to remember that not everyone is closeminded so dont kick me without suggesting some skill choices!

Yep, I read it when you first posted it and I really appreciate the time you took to post it. I've been using your Necro and Elementalist builds for awhile now on my heroes and they work well. I modified the Ele build a bit, but kept the necro MM as is. I've never played an MM myself, so I'm not gonna try and improve on a skillbar I barely understand.

However I am running into a lot of the Elitist attitude that I'm sure you are as well. (Ok, maybe not. I doubt you ever PUG) I'll ping Olias's build and 9/10 times the leader says add Flesh Golem or kick him. I usually reply that this build works very well without fleshy, but I'll end up having to kick poor Olias anyways.

I love Lion's Comfort. It has a permanent spot on my Warrior's bar. (Um, are implying that's it better or worse than the Heal sig?)



I believe I met one of the wisest players ingame a few months ago. He said something that has stuck with me. My elementalist was bored one afternoon. I was doing some routine quests and the quests took me thru the Chantry of Secrets. We had favor and I spotted someone yelling... "GLF for FOW. 4/8 need Nukers and SS Necro. Have monk"

Like I said, I was bored and looking for something different. We almost never have favor so i joined up with him. Immediately he asked me to ping my bar. I did and I think he suggested a minor tweak, but overall it was a good bar. We spent about another 10 minutes filling up the team. While we were waiting, I said I'd chip in for the entry fee and asked how much he wanted. He replied:
"No thx. I got it covered. I figure if I'm paying then I can take my time and form the team that **I** want rather than accepting just anybody who wants in."

This is kinda sliding offtopic into something that would be more fit for the necro forum...

I'd considered that a bare minimum for being mediocre.

The distinction between MM and MB has little to do with one's multitasking ability, and everything to do with the fact that they are working at cross purposes.

One needs expensive minions, because those are the ones with good DPS; the other needs cheap minions so they can afford to turn them over quickly. There's a 10 minion cap, so you simply can't do both without doing both poorly.

One needs to use BotM to preserve their expensive investment; the other needs to actively destroy their minions to reach decent DPS. If you actively destroy your minions, like a good MB, you're working at cross purposes with what you should be doing as a MM. Destroying a healthy 25e bone fiend is a huge waste, especially when bone minions cost only 7.5e. Spending energy and life sac on a minion via BotM only to turn around and putrid flesh it a moment later is wasteful too. On the other hand, tossing around death nova without actively destroying your minions gives you very poor DPS - you'd be better off using another skill in DN's place.

No matter how good you are at multitasking, you simply cannot do two contradictory things at the same time and get results as good as if you had picked one task and did it well.

One word: Armor. That's 600hp w/ 104AL vs 440hp w/ 72 AL + 400hp w/ 64AL. Let's try looking their BADITTKY (Before-Armor Damage It Takes To Kill You) as a rough measurement of their actual survivability: It takes a little over 1286 before-armor damage to take down a flesh golem. Conversely, it takes just under 542 before-armor damage to kill a shambling horror, plus just under 429 before-armor damage to kill the jagged horror, for a total of only 971 BADITTKY. 1286 vs 971. The fleshy is a lot tougher.

I'm not a huge fan of virulence in the elite slot. Minion bombers should already be causing poison with DN and disease with putrid flesh, so it's totally superfluous for them. Minion masters can get more degen with a better AoE effect by combining rotting flesh and well of suffering. IMO, getting a slightly weaker effect in one skill instead of two is not worth the elite slot when there's other decent elites available.

I think your very low standard what you will accept as a passable MM for your party is why you're so keen on the heroes. I do have to concede that a large proportion of players who consider themselves MM's are inferior to heroes at the job. But that doesn't somehow make the heroes any better at it. They still suck. All that means is that a lot of players suck worse.

Nope - Lions Comfort is way better than healing sig (outside of Adrenaline denial of course) but since healing sig has been around since prop I'm still surprised how many Wammo's still use it because they don't know about lions comfort.... even though they already have the skill.

Lions Comfort is overrated... it doesn't even heal that much unless your speccing in Tactics quite alot too. And since i never really bother with a self-heal on my Warrior anyway since neither are all that good as far as PvE is concerned i'd rather save the slot for something useful.

Virulence is a god-awful elite... if i want to cause Disease, i'll take Rotting Flesh. If i want to cause Poison, i'll just wait for a minion to explode. If i want to cause Weakness... i'll hope i'm running an Enfeebling Blood Necro too, nearby multi target weakness > single target elite weakness.
And i never use Fiends in HM. Fiends can't bodyblock. Fiends don't stand close enough to ranged foes to make Death Nova useful. Fiends are likely targets due to low health and stand in around the same place your casters do, AoE anyone? I just use Golem, it can withstand a fair bit of damage before it dies. I would use Jagged Bones, but since it was gimped with its useless recharge thanks to PvP theres not much point in an elite to get maybe 1 or 2 free minions per group that are weaker than the rest. Besides the MM is usually busy spamming Death Nova anyway.

what usually gets me is the group that kicks you without trying to give you a better build. the other day i have this weird build i use for farming a specific boss and its a different build not one id use for a mission and i was the last one invited into a group. actually they invited me before my lag had wore off and i accepted them. they want me to ping my bar seeing i barely had time to think i ping my bar which I'll admit was horrible for what was needed instant kick. the thing is i do adjust my build too work with a party even though i might like a different skill over another if a party wants one I'll bring it. funny thing is i got ticked corrected my bar did mission with henchies and heros got masters then zoned back to the area later to transfer stuff between account cause one of my chars on my other account is there too and the group was still there. my only comment is at least give the person a chance to change his bar.

Reminds me of a time when I was kicked from a pug for being an assassin. I join a pug for Ice Caves of Sorrow just for a change. Couple more people join, one happens to be a mesmer. The first thing this mesmer says is...kick the assassin, assassins suck. Before I could respond I was kicked. I grabbed some trusty hench, and finished the mission. At the end of it, I thought I'd whisper the team that kicked me and see how they were doing.

They failed the mission.

You still dont understand. Because you combine aspects of MMing and Mbombing, it does not make you inefective.

on one hand you have your expensive fiend.

on other hand you have same fiend with nova.

Now, which is better? Second one, ill tell you. because that one has added value. Realize one thing: Because you put nova on something you does not mean that you will immeditalley follow with minion destroying skill.

But in case your minions get to aoe or some meele mosnter gets to taste them, it makes all the difference. This is how Bombing and minion mastery are able to coexist just fine.

You see, MM has all the time to nova everything. All you have to to is ensure that skills are in right order so that AI prioritizes the ones that are vital and uses extras for, well, extras.

Besides there is always downtime between combats that your hero mm can spend preapplying novas.

Think of it as premptive sttrike, those novas will be there in moment you need them most.

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Anyway, you seems to have ... hmm, high standarts, care to share?

Because no matter how i look at its, MM is just freaking simple. Raise asap something dies, spam healing skills, repeat. There is hardly anything human ever does on top of that, any positioning or fancy stuff like that is simply destroyed by minions, you main challenge is not to get bored. Hero on the other hand ...

How is that griefing 7 other players?

I know what role my characters should play for any given mission in the game. If i choose to perform a specific role in my own way, using a build of my choosing, then I have that right. There are so many skills available to characters, that nobody should be forced into one specific set of skills.

If anything, its the group leader trying to force a build down a player's throat who is the real griefer. Making me, or anyone, play your way makes you the selfish prick on the internet.

What you're saying is exactly what people should do in PuGs. However, that can be easily accomplished by simply asking the other party members what "type" of build they are playing (e.g. I'm a Blood Necro or a Fire Elementalist) and requesting that they bring along a particular skill.

Pinging builds is a quicker way to achieve that...but my personal experience is that more parties (than not) use pinging for either (1) party selection or (2) micromanaging others' builds. That's why I'm naturally leery to pinging my build...especially if it puts me in the defensive position of justifying why I've chosen to bring certain skills over others.