Ping your build

Then why not tell them that instead of lying? I don't see any reason not to tell the truth, unless you're afraid of being booted (which is a bad reason, so you know).

Not really. It's not so much "forcing builds down players throats" as it is "using the most effective build for the situation". If both of the monks are healing monks, I'd really prefer if one were Protection. I'd really appreciate it if the Ranger was able to put some interrupts on his skillbar for this particular mission, etc., etc.

Dude, you can play how you like, that's fine. But if the way you play might annoy people, or if it isn't truthful, then I would insist that you consider using Heroes.

I'm sorry, but you really are a complete arsehole. The fact you actually think what you do is justifiable is bad enough, but the fact your proud of it is just pathetic.

You call the leader selfish because they *might* want you to use some other skills. Yet you overlook the fact that *you* are the selfish prick because you refuse to show anyone your REAL build. I'm sorry but instead of maybe just letting you use the build and maybe adjusting a few things thinking i know what your playing, only to find out your been a twat and using a completely different build because you refuse to tell the truth, i would probably just hurl abuse at you until you left. If you think your above the team because you shouldn't show your real build, i don't want you in it.

Whats your IGN so i can make sure i never, ever, get in a pug with you?

You still have problems with that ... Fire Elementalist can have terrible build consisting of 8 damage skills ("i am all out for damage") which he would love and refuse any counsels and Blood Necro can still ignore your request to take one skill.

Pinging builds changed one thing: Terrible builds that were around suddenly became visible and people got faced with the fact that their threasured stuff they love is, well, inefective and even stupid. Sadly, typical kid reaction prevailed and isntead of improving to meet some standarts, you got whining.

Anyawy, if your skill choice is sound, you have nothing to fear when defending it, no? Because people ask you why you used it instewad of something else, you get to think about your choice and give good answer. If anything, that promotes actuall thinking about build you use. Its an opportunity to get feedback on what you are doing ...

You lie them about what you are going to do. That leads to people generally expecting something and it not ... happening.

Say for example that you have your supa dupa nuker you like and instead show general SF nuker bar. Now, this causes huge probems for your team if it contains decent players who play as team: They see SF burning so paragon brings They are on Fire, water ele you have brings steam and condition spreading skill, dervish takes Reap Impurities, etc etc ... But you took build that does not use buning they were all expecting to be abundant and you have several pissed party members who now have wasted skill slots. Its even worse if you join people with teambuild in mind.

You see, you basically lie to people just to have easier time regardless of consequences ... its base of being selfish prick.

Chances are, your own builds are so awesome they get you kicked from parties, but being childish about it instead of improving is worst thing you can really do.

I swear if I see one more person go on about their rights I'm going to scream. Let me make this clear for the quoted poster as well as anyone else that wants to justify their idiotic actions by claiming it is their right. A right requires only recognition by others. What you are talking about is a privilege. See privileges require other people to sacrifice in some way so you can have what you want. In this case they are sacrificing a competent and successful group so you can have your way. If you are in any way shape or form inconveniencing someone else then what you are talking about is not a right. The only way that you getting to use your mediocre build in whatever capacity you want becomes your right is if you play with heroes and henchmen only. The moment you elect to join a group then you no longer have that right. If you don't like it then too bad. You can always go back to being lonely with your henchmen and heroes. That is just the way this game works. People play to win, not to be frustrated by some goober who just had to have his way. Frustration is not fun, winning is fun.

No one forces you to PUG. If you want to PUG, be prepared to ping your skills and have others ping their skills, to make it more likely that the group gets anywhere. If you are, for some reason, dead set against pinging your skills, H&H is waiting for you. And if you suck bad enough that you can't H&H... then you're probably better off pinging your skills and letting others tell you what to bring.

is it any wonder that PUGs are dead?

When I am the leader of a group I rarely ask this but they volunteringly ping there bars.I get woot out of it when I see a bad Monks bar and that of a hero but I never tell them to make changes when I see lvl 20 player useing healing breeze.

When another Monk is in the party and see I have Lod they coodinate and switch to something else if they are useing it.I really think that MMs are overated compared to a curses Necro as don't want to change from MM to curses take The Garden of Sebedorah (sp) most in that mission are MMs and I ask for a SS curses Necro and they say they are set up as MM can't they change to SS with suffering the mission would be a lot smoother that way as MMs die all the time and their minions turn on us.What is it with Necros who refuse to switch to curses which I would say is a lot better than death maybe heros do make better MMs.They going to have to switich when they get to the Gate of Madness.

You also have a responsibilty to whatever PUGs or even Guild groups you set out on missions with. Your "right" to bring any old thing you want is tempered by the needs and best interest of the team you're playing with.

I'd say the vast majority of resquests to change builds consist of making one or 2 minor adustments, not complete overhauls. There are exceptions, of course, like having a Necro change from MM to curses for Hell's Precipice (a reasonable request - LOL). also, having all those skills at your disposal doesn't give you the "right" to bring any old thing along with you, because many of those skills and skill combinations just plain suck.

A party leader has the responsility to the entire party, not just himself. So when good ones ask your build, they're doing it for the good of the entire team, not just themselves. Also when the good ones ask, they'll more than likely NOT kick a person with a decent build that could use some minor tweaking who is willing to at least discuss changes. Now, if the skill bar in question is complete crap, then the likelyhood of getting kicked goes way up. Nice, helpful, people who aren't in a big hurry will give you a new build and show you a better way to do things. If the leader and member can't agree on the build, then it's better that they part ways.

Someone who just kicks you without discussion is a jerk that I, personally, wouldn't want to team up with anyway. Same goes for the person who says "This is the build I'm running and that's that!" - I wan't nothing to do with you.

Most of the time, because if I'm pugging, I really don't care that much about getting the mission done quickly and efficiently. That's what heroes+hench are for, getting the job done. Chances are I've already done it. But if I'm pugging, it's because I just want to kick back and play with some real people for a change.

I don't really care that much what your build is, even if I ask you to ping it. What I do care about are the way you, and the others in the party react to it.

Most of the time, it's not about weeding out the builds I don't agree with. It's about weeding out the non-responsive players, the 'u sux noob' players, and other unwanted elements.

It's a conversation starter, if you wish. Nothing seem to quite bring out the jerkwads quicker so you can get rid of them. But on the other hand, if it brings out a calm discussion about skill X vs Y... then you're on to a winner group.

Plus I'm just plain nosy.

Do I mind pinging my build?
Not at all.


Will I bitch about other players builds if they stink?
Yes I will.
I will offer ideas how to improve the build OR just give orders what to dump (IF, and once again IF i know what i am talking about! (You won't see me commenting on Dervish builds!)). I will work with the person in question to try to find a better skill (from the selection that they have access to) then the one(s) that bug me.


Will I listen to advice about MY build?
Depends. Depends on the suggestion and the build. If they don't like it - I don't mind getting kicked.
BUT I don't have a problem learning new stuff!


Will I kick players for stupid builds?
Depends. Mostly not - unless they are obviously trying to hurt the team or are too dumb to listen to a well-ment suggestion. If I have the option to kick - that means it is MY team - so it is my right to make those kind of decisions.
If you don't like it - there are many teams that will gladly take your shitty builds and you can gladly fail with them.
I don't have a problem with kicking players or even refusing to accept them - BUT normally builds aren't the reason why I would exercise this right!

Not everyone knows what role thier character should play. Most of the time the player is new to the mission, So he/she doesn't know what type of enemies to expect; Pinging your build will help you in this aspect. If I saw you using an Mm build in a mission with little to no corpses, I would tell you to switch your build. Not because I'm a selfish prick, but because I know your build won't be effective.

Yes there are many skills to run the same build and to have the same effect, but some skills are more efficient than others. I don't know how others handle this situation, but I usually recommend a more usefull skill to use and why it is more usefull. Once the person understand how it is more effective, they have learned something and are now a better player.

You will never get better in the game If you simply take no criticism from others and just run builds that you think are effective. Constructive criticism is a beautiful thing and improves us all. Even when I know my build is effective in its purpose, I ask my team If they have any comments on my build. I hear them out and in doing so, I become a better player.

No, wasn't me. I think I was running Death-16, Soul Reaping - 13, ???. My skills were BoTM, Fiend, Horror, Vamp Horror, Deathly Swarm, Taste of Pain, Soul Feast, Rez Sig. Ok, maybe not the greatest MM skillbar, but doable in most cases. I've recently started to play my necro again after a few month hiatus and it's really been several months since playing a MM because I usually used to go Blood or Curses.

I will take a look at Zingers(?) MM thread for advice, but correct me if I'm wrong, but this MM bar isn't God awful is it? As OTP stated, playing an MM is exactly rocket science. Raise minions and spam BoTM, most of the rest of the skills are fillers.

Anyway, back to the actual topic. There are a lot of good posts here arguing one way or the other. I'm of more sound mind since originally posting the start of the thread when I was quite agitated. After having read the posts and had time to reflect on the issue, I believe that the GW community is too diverse and ultimately you just can't please everyone. I do agree with trying to form a solid team, particularly when playing difficult high end PvE. Requesting build pings and requesting skill changes within reason are perfectly acceptable.

However, the original point I was trying to make is that with my own experience in the game (beaten Prophecies and halfway? through Factions) there are very few missions/quests that really warrant "strict" control over team and individual builds (not including high end PvE). I prefer to PUG because of the "human" aspect is more enjoyable to me in most cases. Yes, I've been in bad groups. Yes, I've played with bad players, but in most cases I think what makes a player bad is poor tactics rather than subpar skillbars. For example, I wrote in a thread a long time ago that there are really just a few key things that really make or break a mission/quest in most cases.


1) One of the single most important keys to success is proper aggro control. I really don't need to explain this do I?

2) Calling targets and following the called target. With the recent addition of the auto targeting I've noticed less target calling, but I haven't really notice too much of a degradation of killing efficiency. I suspect that in many cases players auto target the same monster.

3) General bad play such as going afk, wandering off, players arguing...etc.


I guess everyone has their own playing styles and preference and if nitpicking and being elitest snobs on general missions/quests that don't warrant this type of play (in my opion anyway) then so be it. Oh by the way, the recent missoins that I was kicked on for not having the desired build were Nahpui Quarter (3 times) and Arborstone (once). The group was not going for Masters, the group was not playing HM, I did not have a ridiculously stupid build loaded and the missions are not that overly difficult so I'm left dumbstruck as to certain peoples behavior. I eventually was able to get into a PUG that didn't care about people's builds and we did just fine and wouldn't you know...we got Masters. All things considered though, I guess all you can say is "do whatever floats your boat".

This is something I have seen much of to but it in a different way.
Since I am helping a good deal of time in places where it is common to be 12-17 in level I often get asked to help say ok and then they ping there build. I don't care though and only start looking at builds including mine if we don't accomplish what we started out to do. There are so many ways one can play and until you have played with them you have no idea if they make it work or not.

When I first started GW (2 years ago) I played what I still play often a hammer W/R. I got so much grief over choosing the hammer instead of a sword at first and then an axe that I played almost all the game alone with henchmen, except for when my someone from my guild was on and we got together.
Now for some reason people ask what I use and I tell them and there excited... I have no idea why, I know many axe, sword, bow, staff and wand warriors who play well so I am not sure what is making the difference for people.

When I play my protect monk of course as a monk you always get asked to help and I don't mind. I do ask that there be no aggro and off we go. If it works for them and the team who cares?

Or am I just lucky in the pug groups I get into most the time? As I have not been affected with build/loss of goal issue's.

Happy Hunting and be well

Probably one of the better points brought up in this thread. There are others, of course, but I wanted to highlight this.

Everyone talks about team synergy - and how PuGs just don't have it, etc. But then you have someone who says "screw them all! I'll ping what I think is expected then change it to suit myself, team be damned!" Who is causing PuG failure in that instance? I would hazard that if you're so spectacular that you cannot even be honest with team members, then perhaps you should hang out with your heros and henches. At least then when you cause possible catastrophic failure with your selfishness and deliberate misdirection, the heros just shrug and keep rezzing.

Everyone talks about how they can just take out their hand-taught heros and whoop arse. And I admit that much of the team I do just that myself. Most of the time it's because of people like the poster who said he switched builds just because he could. At the same time, I've had the good fortune of going out with some really nice players who have good builds--and we sometimes then advise each other on how to improve (or what skills to avoid).

When I run my necro, the first thing I tell a group is that I'm running full Curses degen and not MM. She (now) has FG but it's been my experience that most PuGs don't know how much time it takes to raise minions, let alone know that once they're up, you have to move. Curses lend much more fun to my game. Soon I'll run a full Wells build of my own making - and I'll tell the team when I'm doing that, as well.

I dunno. Maybe there are just too few honest people left in the world--even in a make-believe game.

OK, let's make some things straight.

If i PUG, which i don't anymore because PvE gets boring really fast... but anyway - if i do, keep in mind this:

1) I am not doing the mission for you. If i was doing the mission for you, you'd be on my guild or friends list. I am doing mission for myself, as selfish as it sounds.
2) I am not using AI because i got sentimental and am in need of some social contact, as incredible as it sounds considering who the average PUGian is. I PUG in hope that I'll run into an advanced soul who has a life outside of GW where it tries to break through the fabric of maya, but that soul probably wouldn't play GW anyway which means I'm just deluding myself but let me.
3) You have the privilege to play in a PUG group where I'm the leader. Not a right.
3) If I am the leader of the PUG group you got in, that means It's either my way or the highway. I have zero tolerance for Mending and the reasons why it's good. I have zero tolerance for incredibly bad builds which i can see even in PvP let alone PvE. I have, however, utmost patience for people who are discovering the game, learning how to play, unlocking skills, and show a future potential. I am also not nit-picky considering this is PvE. I dislike FotM's but will allow you to use. If I don't like your build, you may also explain to me why your build is better than I think it is, and I will consider pro & cons arguments.
4) If you have a problem with authority, you are not desired in my PUG group. I am too old for 12yr olds saying "who are you to tell me how to play this game". Team first. Team second. Player - after the mission.
5) If you're aiming for survival title - go away. A good team needs players who are ready to sacrifice for the team. You are not one of them.
6) Interact with your teammates. Chat. Comment. Relax. Play. Have fun. If I wanted someone who says not a word during whole mission, I'd take a Hero because there's more chance he is using the right armor, insignias, weapon, runes, skills, listens to orders and doesn't suddenly have to go somewhere in the middle of the mission.


And as for pinging builds, if you don't want to ping your build that's fine, you are free to join some horribly bad PUG which has equally bad skills as you. So If you're asked to ping your build, and you don't want to - just quit. Don't bother typing 'It's secret'. Just quit. It saves my time clicking on the kick button.

ps: As for pinging experience, the last person who didn't want to ping the build but said he's good, and which we let stay, was a 55hp monk. In PvP. Yeah, that's what I think about people who refuse to ping. You know your build is so bad that you'd get kicked for it.

Agree'd.

Not pinging your build when asked is by far the fastest way to get kicked from a group. If you ping your bar, and it's not liked - most people will give suggestions as to what to bring, and only kick you if you refuse to listen.

And pinging a build different from the one you intend to play is childish & stupid - very stupid. NEVER try getting into any group with me.

people like you ruined pugs. If anything gw is the most communistic game i have ever played, now diablo was a good game

It's nice that there is a variety of responses, so the OP can see the advantages of not pinging his build (or lying). I do, of course, but I understand why people don't.
You guys really need to take a long, hard look at how much you suck. It's just taken for granted that decent heroes are better than 99% of players. That includes the people posting here, and there aren't 100 posts here yet. If there is even the possibility that you will find players better than your heroes, then you need to improve your heroes, and stop being mean to other people. If you want to complete a mission, take heroes. If you still can't complete it, then criticising players in a PUG is the last thing you should be doing.

The only reason to play with other people is community. In that case, pinging builds is a necessary distraction, at best. So - be nice, since you have nothing else to contribute, and don't act like you're superior to 7 other random people.

I suggest listening to Jetdoc. He seems smart.

thank god for heros and henchmen

Splatter Mcnasty,

Please just tell us your IGN so you wont have to play with us ever!

He is the lowest rung of the player ladder. 1 who wants to pug, but can't face up to the fact that pugs leaders aren't all elitist. So instead of displaying the build he is using, displays something else, he then attempts to call other people selfish...

People who can't justify there own build to another person have no place in my pug group (if i ever do actually make 1). If someone asks 'why do you have Tiger Stance and not Flail?', its not because they're been pure evil and are looking for any excuse to kick you... its probably because they just want to know and see if you actually have a reason. Hell, maybe they'll look into it another time themselves.

Wait, you tell me that i suck, while you havent even read my post properly, where i explicitly said that I'm NOT using PUGs because they are better than Heroes?

If you intend to criticize people, then at least use valid arguments.

If im the group leader, it's more than likely that im superior in game knowledge to 7 other people, unless some of those are really good, in which case they WILL agree with me, problem solved. In 2 years of PvPing and PvEing, i don't recall a SINGLE time that an experienced player had a problem with how i handle things. Actually, most of them were quite glad that the group was organized and efficient, and every time i kicked someone they rejoiced because they understood why and agreed.
Anyway, this is exactly what i said under "4)". If you have problem with authority - leave. If you stay, respect my authorite, as Cartman would say

I do have a lot to contribute, if you think i don't, why on earth did you join my group? Just quit it, we are both better off.

And just because im not expecting perfection in a PUG group does not mean that i will jeopardize the whole mission for every other player (other than you). If you want to bring utterly crap build that's fine, but it will not be in my group. I will probably let you stay even if you're heal monk with no e-management, but i will not let you stay if you use Mending because i can't stand it.

I'm smart. But you disagree with me because you're scared of pinging your build, which means that even though im smart you'll disregard what i say.

Kali, you sound like the type of player I enjoy PUGing with. As a frequent pugger myself, I'll explain a bit about my playstyle and what I'm looking for in a pug.

First, I'm rarely the leader. I hate leading pugs. Someone always gets mad for stupid reasons.

If I'm pugging, its so that I can enjoy the mission and the company of others. Yes, I realize that my heroes can probably do a better job, so don't even start with that argument. Not all of us who pug do so because their heroes suck. However in areas like The Deep or FoW, heroes are not usually a viable option. You need other players and if you're in a small guild you need to pug.

I'll look for pugs that sound like they have similiar goals to mine. If I want masters on Nahpui Quarter, I'll look for a pug advertising itself as a masters group and I expect the leader to question the builds of the folks joining and weed out the players who don't care about masters, but only want to chest hunt or "just get me thru this stupid mission". A good leader should only accept folks with similiar goals. The pug will be more likely to succeed and the players will have a more enjoyable time.

I don't want to waste my time with uptight Elitist jerks. I'm playing this game to relax and enjoy myself, not to get cussed out because my Ele didn't get off that MS spell in time. If I see "GLF more 4/8 EXP ONLY NO NOOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!", I won't join. I'm not a noob, but I also don't want to waste time with a leader who appears to be 13 years old with the immaturity to match.

A leader should be flexible as well. (to a point). I get frustrated with leaders who take forever and a day to form a group when it just isn't necessary. I was doing Sunjiang District last month and joined a group which brought the number to 7/8. We had 1 monk but the leader wanted a 2nd monk. We sat around spamming "glf monk to go" for a half hour in a rather deserted town with no monks. Several times I suggested that we take a hero only to be shot down with "NO HEROES!!!!!" each time. I finally left. It was obvious the leader wasn't going to budge and I didn't feel like waiting any longer.

I pug and prefer to as Anet forces me to do missions to get end game and I prefer real ppl to AI.It make for a much interesting game the pinging and writing on the radar.I forgot to mention this is my first post.Then i have to get to x,yz palce as well so I have to do missions.

Ok this is a bit much. I am an experienced player. Last night decided to PuG everyone pinged build no prob. The leader critisized my build, which I use effectively and need verylittle assistance with. I made my case and they took this approach. We were doing vizunah. Got Kicked by leader. Joined another PuG same thing happened, but not kicked this time (leader was a little less like cartman). Enter mission met up with first group. I was last man standing and managed to get whole party throught mission with master as everyone dies at 2nd to last stand (solo ele build works yet again).

Point being just because you invite first doesn't = best in group.

When I'm a leader of a group, I usually will be asking too see builds for two major reasons:

1) To make sure every one has a basic built (attunement spell on elementist for example) and to maybe point out a player in the right decision. And also to know what to expect once were in the field.

I am a very patient person and will put up with a lot. So I don't mind asking people. If we need some specifique skill, or to ask that elementist to remove his pet. I'm also very open to builds, so I don't usually ask for them to switch 6/8 skill, maybe 1 or two if need be.

2) To see new built, I love seeing other people unique and different builds, For example, on of my guildie showed me his mesmer spike. I’ll tell you, it was not a terribly powerful spike, BUT, it could be done almost none stop for damage.
Very different and original.


But I find the biggest factor in a party success, is not the skill of the party, but the skill of a leader. In party were no one was taking charge, we usually failed, and those were some one took charge, we succeeded most of the time.

I was out farming with some guildies, and one of them did not realize we were in hard mode until 10 min into the run. Or the time we defeated Dwayna Acolyte with 1 monk in a party of 7 ( no resto rit or e/mo healer). The reasons we defeated those was because of my leadership, I was out there, taking charge, saying were to go, what to do and when, that is what I find to be the most decisive factor.

Builds and Skill of single player may some ties interfere with that, but a good leader will adapt.

I will let a player use his built, but I may ask him to change one or two things and explain to him why its more effective.

It may be my party, but I'm not the only player here, this is teamwork, and it requires sacrifice for the part of every one.


When I'm not the leader, I don't mind pinging my built, and of the leader ask me to change something, I will try to adapt to the best of my ability. I'm not the leader, but I will trust him in his judgment, well most of the time anyways

If/when I play I'm an easy going person, my only request as a group leader is for everyone to bring a build they are comfortable using. I'm not into all this "must win at all cost" if thats how some people choose to play thats fine but I'd rather spend an hour doing a quest and have fun doing it then have the standard cookie cutter group and blast through it in 10 mins.

My view, take it or leave it..don't care either way.

If by "elitist" you mean, "A person who doesn't want to waste time failing a mission due to a player being unable to apply common sense in the process of making a skill bar." Then, yes, I'm an elitist. Heroes and henchmen > you.

Heres the thing though. Whos to say that your builds are good. Maybe to others your builds suck. So why should someone use a build that others gave them just cause YOU think they work better?

Healthy debate never hurt anyone did it?

And to be fair some people seem to think using Barrage on the same skillbar as 1 or 2 Preperations is good... some people are just a bit dim and fill bars with stupid skill, then can't even justify it with a decent reason.

Happened to once, in AB.
Leader asked to ping my build.
Leader "No elite?"
Me "Nah, this build is just fine without an elite"
*kick from the group*

Really makes me sad to see something like that in AB

Yup.

Some signs of a good PUG group leader:
- Advertisement is done in a mature calm way. If it's a PvP arena such as Team Arena, the group leader will be more specific, such as "need this and that profession" etc, and will not type "we need one more, join in". If you see advertisement like the above one you mentioned, then the group leader is frustrated, impatient, and probably immature, which still means you can do the mission but the atmosphere might be unhealthy.
- He will not allow into a group people who type something like this in the public channel: "aaaaaah i can't do this mission someone please invite me". There is a very good reason why people like these have problems doing the mission, and it's not all about their skillbar.
- He will be interested in the well-being of a group, asking for pinging when he considers it needed, and will give feedback. He will kick those who are not worth the effort. If he points out why some skill you're using is bad, you can counter it with an argument, and if you cant, change it.
- He won't ask everyone for ping, in most cases, just few people who seem suspicious. A good group leader is able to guess (with high percentage) your build just by looking at your profession, title, your character name (yes that's right) and things you type in the chat.
- He talks. He doesnt just add people to the group and presses Enter button as soon as the group fills.
- If someone joins a group and pings a build without leader asking him, and the build was horrible, and group leader didn't react, that means the leader either doesn't care, or is insecure/not experienced enough to know why such a build is bad. In either case..
- If the group decides to have a Hero, the group leader will probably want to put his own there, because he knows what kind of Heroes people run, without insignias, runes, horrible skillbars etc, and he won't want to risk it. In case that he doesn't have a Hero set, he will ask you to ping your hero build as a must.
- He doesn't need to know everything about the mission. A group leader is a group leader, not a guide or tracker. Everyone should contribute.
- He is nice, awesome, and if you're a girl you want to marry him and have his kids.



I don't know what build you use but I'd be very suspicious.

One of the signs of a bad build (unless Random arenas) is that it's self-sufficient and needs very little assistance. A good build will need a lot of assistance from the team, but will also give much more.

Aha. A good leader is at least 30% of the team, no kidding. And not just in a game. I've played another game before this, and one could easily see there how much the leader means, even though there were 25 people in the team.

I always urge people to use builds they like playing, but there's always a line. You say you play for fun, but doing the same mission 10x isn't fun for most people. A healthy balance of fun and success is needed, and that is not possible if everyone brings horrible skillbars.

I would kick you too.

Unless it's PvE and you explained to me that you didn't capture it yet. But there's a HUGE difference between PvP (even one in AB) and PvE.

Anyway, if that saddens you in AB you can always go play solo PvE with henchmen, who wont complain because they cant, and because their bars aint good either

I mean... Every good build doesn't have to contain an elite skill.

Yes it does.

Show me a build which is better than the same build with an elite skill. The only thing which comes close is a Domination line which as some great skills bordering on the elite status.

But as i said, show me good non elite build.

I was a domination Mesmer.

Domination Mesmer is still no excuse... if you can't think of anythign to run, use Mantra of Recovery or some Energy Management elites.
A Mesmer NEVER has a reason to not bring an elite because no matter how good the rest of there bar is, MoR/Inspiration fit in anywhere.

I'd still like to see the full skillbar before commenting.

Meh, ok let's do it like this. I'll shut up and put Energy Surge in that build. Guess I can now get a group.

Are you sure this is good approach? Granted, there are lots of builds around that are terrible because they try to do little bit of everything (and end up doing nothing worthy), but i presonally love it when people have smart multifunctional builds.

For example, self heal or defensive skill that reduces dependancy on monks is welcome and usually decidive in critical situations.

Then again, that multifunctional self sufucient factor should benefit whole team, not only player itself. self heals, interupts, enchant/hex/condtion removals, definsive skills that also affect party mebmers, etc ... not all of it at once of course, but helthy combination of theese just makes ordinary party rock.

No, just post the build. Energy Surge randomly put can harm more than actually be of use.

ps: zwei, i know what you're trying to say, i was speaking more generally. An extreme example would be a warrior who has condition removal, hex removal, block, heal, and damage. It's not gonna be much of a damage now is it It's better to optimize; let monks do the healing, monks do condition removal (unless u can fit it in somehow), and you increase the dmg output insanely.