Ban Heroes from HA and GvG?

/Not signed

There is already a limit...

/signed Heros should not be a part of Ha or GvG at all there is ero battles for that pourpose

And what about people who can only spare 1 hour to play Guild Wars, but like to do HA? Having something that's so quick and easy to set up allows them to have their play time. Should they be stripped of their right to participate in the game just because their real life wouldn't permit it?

PvP is necessarily full of elitism. Imagine this: you are a great PvP player; confident in your skills; taking the effort to learn and flesh out strategies; becoming good at what you do; taking the time, with your buddies, to plan an effective, solid strategy. Then a newcomer comes by and has an easy time using heroway, utilizing the unfair advantages heroes have over humans.

Sure, it's not so bad when you are defeated by a good strategy, even if from a newcomer. You can admire them for that, and even learn a thing or two. But there is nothing to learn from heroes because they just do things better than any human is capable of doing. You can never apply those strategies except to shun half your team and run heroway yourself.

Sure, there is elitism. And it's well-earned. I'm not talking about those arrogant ass hairs who rage quit because the monk didn't bring Ether Signet; that's just ignorance. I mean people who are proud of their skill. That really is what HA was meant for. People who take PvP seriously generally do better in PvP than people who do it casually. That should be obvious. Now why should that obvious fact make people upset? Someone who takes skiing seriously may end up in the Olympics, whereas someone who skis for fun will have fun on the hills of Whistler, but they will never hope to go to the Olympics for it.

And yet, if you want to PvP for fun, you can still try your hand at HA, or battle in GvG, being matched up with guilds of similar rank, or any of the other arenas. Just don't consider it your right to win HA with ease.

I was reading this thread objectively and that's what I concluded. I never PvP, which I suppose could make some think they can ignore my arguments completely. I like playing against AI, but if I were PvPing, I would want that to be PvP through and through. If everyone is expected to use bots, then why even have PvP at all? The whole thing would be stale. I may as well just go back to doing Hard Mode.

No, I don't think it's reasonable to expect casual players to be competitive with pros. I don't think it's any God-given right to gain everything an expert gains when you're not treating it as seriously as they do. To me it just seems kinda low to abuse the advantages of the AI like that.

/signed

I can understand why the elitist players dont like heroes because it gives noobs an easy way to get fame. But how is anyone below rank 3 supposed to get any fame these days?

Heroes allow my farming guild to quickly setup a team and get some quick fame. They really only win one or twice due to a lack of co-ordination on the later maps, which is hardly imbalanced or anything. I am sure that they are learning how to play the game, and they only use heroes when they cant find people to join, as there are really only about 4 people in the guild that HA.

I used to help them too, but I dont get voip access anymore as I use mobile broadband unless I pay another £12.50 a month.

Now I were a great monk and rank 3, and am a great monk now. Ive been playing in rank 9-12 teams a few months ago and winning haals a good few times thanks to 2 good friends on my list, but at the start of summer both those friends stopped playing, so I am now without the abitity to get into a group I know that can hold halls, and really cant be bothered playing anymore either untill these friends come back to the game (if they ever do).

I pretty much vimwayed from R4 to R6, then herowayed halfway to R7 and got the rest from monking. My reasons for doing this were simply because no decent groups wanted a R3/4 monks, and it was the only way I could play a game of HA and get some fame to increase my rank and play with better teams.

Oh, and when I played HA in my friends team, heroes were really never a problem for us.

/not signed

Reasons have been pretty much covered in previous posts. When heroway starts winning HoH, then Anet should act. But for now, it's only good for a couple rounds in HA before they get sent packing.

Why do these PvE farmers need fame so badly? It's just greed, wanting something you could otherwise not get. Their idiotic title hunt ruins the game for others who play for the competitive element. Scrubs who heroway are elitists, not the other way around.

They could set fame to zero and never let it come back for all I care. Or let PvE farmers buy fame for 1gp each. Just leave your bots out of the PvP playground.

Your own attitude to HA is so telling by the way. Only play when your high rank friends can pull your ass through, otherwise you can't be bothered. Of course, you don't give a damn about HA itself, you just see it as a place to farm XX. Minimal effort please, don't care if others lose the opportunity to play an interesting match.

They should make it so that bots can be set up to solo farm areas while I AFK or play PvP, and get me a shitload of cash. I'll deck all my chars AND all my heroes out with the rarest skins and see how you like having your stupid little farming game destroyed because that just took away all the joy of finding something rare. Olias got there first! Hey, I'm sure I'd be "learning how to play the game" while my heroes farm for me.

I would like to give my 2c to this discussion.

First of all, I am not an active PvP player, neither is my guild.
I do see added value for heroes in PvP for some guilds, but I would have them removed from PvP for various reasons.
One of the reasons is abuse of AI advantage.
We as guild ran heroway Discord a couple of times for fun.
We are bad at GvG, but managed to defeat guilds that were much higher ranked than our guild.
Sure, being a decent PvE monk with infuse experience helped, but the main advantage was AI.
Needless to say we would have failed big time against any good PvP guild.

The second reason I don't like heroes in PvP is more basic.
It's Player vs Player, not Player vs Player + AI.
When I want to kill AI, I can go in hero battles or plain old PvE.

The only reason for heroes is filling empty spots.
When you can't get 6 or 7 people together for PvP frequent, don't PvP.
We as guild stopped PvP for that reason.
If you want to PvP, find a guild that does PvP, or check your friends list.

1) We we are not just PVE'ers, we are players interested in PVE and PVP. We GVG, HA, TA, UW, FOW, DOA, HM and farm. It is the best guild I have ever been in and is imo the most all rounded guild suited for players that enjoy everything in the game.

2) Even if they set fame to 0 we would still HA because we enjoy it. The reason I quit is because my 'friends' dont play anymore. I enjoyed playing with them because they werent elitist and didnt scream into the mic when we lost, instead we were all up for another go day in day out and I could play HA constantly for hours on end with them. The builds we used were not fotm builds either, they were original. I took care of the monking builds since thats what I'm good at, the people that play damage took care of the damage builds. Since they stopped playing, I havnt found other teams that are half as well organised or fair to players, so I cant be bothered playing. If I wanted fame, I would still be playing HA wouldnt I?

3) Bots are illegal under the rules of the game. Heroes arent, so comparing the two isnt really valid.

Heroes allowed teams to be set up faster, and allowed players unable to get into groups because of the elitist a chance to play the game. I dont see anything wrong with that.

Nicely put. Heroway was winning HoH before it was limited, but I catually dont think it would work with all heroes anymore because of the new mechanics.

All I used to do was Angelic bond the ghostly, seed + SoA him and stand around nuking. Won halls with heroes and a Rank 0 monk. OFC it needed nerfing, but now hero way is useless compared to all human teams since co-ordination is a lot more important on the maps.

/signed, not going to bother explaining why.

Damn it, just lost again to 4 nubs and 4 heroes in GvG, do you know how annoying that gets? That you know the players suck, but the heroes make them good.

Agreed with Lorekeeper.

Also, /signed. No, I don't PvP much, but I like to Observe, and this is just broken. I can't even begin to tell you how boring heroway battles are to watch. There's no challenge, no excitement, no fun, just watching real players with real skill get slaughtered by AI. It should be roughly as legal as bot farming in PvE IMO.

You mean sort of like Power attracts the corruptible and absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible? So, PvP absolutely attracts the elitist? I can observe this.

Elitism is never earned. It is by nature a degradation of the humanity of all others to assume anyone, self or other, is elite. Promotion and acceptance of it is dehumanizing and therefore makes a social game "unfun."

Who wins or loses in the Olympics has no control over my access to the city park. Who wins and loses in HA controls my access to game content. HA should not, and never should have been, in anyway be linked to FoW/UW. (No scrolls are merely another penalty and gold sink, not a correction of the wrong.)

There is a difference between demanding a right to win with ease and being denied emotes and titles for the persona of one's character because you can never ever be a part of that 0.1% of elite players in the top 25 elite teams.

I fully understand the position. What I am amused by is that the game bends over backwards to allow PvP to operate separately of PvE, and disdain PvE as something for the peasants, granting skin changes, skill purchase, special private titles, etc. In the meantime, some people have found a way to bust their little private country club and enjoy their privilege and they don't like it. Now they can't boast, brag, question people's sexuality or out right call them names just because they won using an experienced build honed over 2 years of play. I find it out right hilarious. And I will look back on their tantrums with a smile long after ANet rushes in and makes their world all happy for them again.

I dont think it is reasonable in a game where we all purchased our copy (copies) to play that people be relegated into the you will never matter as much as we do category by those who errantly think endless hours of repetitive PvP should be a paid profession. No one is supposed to be a pro. No one is supposed to be getting paid to maintain a team or guilds standing in the rankings. Since, there are not supposed to be any professionals (no elites) the comeuppence going down does not bother me in the least.

And no, I am not looking to PvP or get the rewards there. ANet has had many opportunities to make PvP rewarding for PvE players and generally refused to take them. I dont have enough time for what I do in PvE, and the only reason I ever PvP is to open a skill so I can buy it where and when I need it.

Did Anet ever actually give a reason as to why they let AI become a very strong part of PLAYER vs PLAYER?

Hero battles exist for a reason...

So those henchmen standing near the archway are just there for show?

Again, there have always been henchmen. Sure they're not as good as heroes, but they're still AI.

Frankly, there's a reason you can see what's on a hero. It's because you can't have them on TS/Vent with you and they won't call out what's on them. A coordinated party could have a person match a hero's ability to "know" what enchantments are on each party member.
After that, a hero is only as good as the build given to them. And frankly, the build is really what wins.

How many people have actually looked at the build used with heroes and tried to make a counter? It's actually not that hard.

1st off its "not fun" or "no longer fun" not "unfun"

2nd if your saying that hero's should be allowed then it is not "a social game" if it were "a social game" people would spend longer tring to find groups of people to play with instead of being anti social and taking hero's because they dont wanna deal with other people being ass' to them when they try and form a group

I challenge anybody to match Olias' skill and efficiency at running any of the necro bars that are used in the standard heroway build.

With "bots" I meant using heroes in this case.

Your continued use of "elitism" to defend the heroes is ridiculous. Why do you not group with those that have about the same experience as you? Oh yes, they are too "n00b" for you. "Lol my heroes are better" You're the elitist.

Might as well close this thread. It's the 6v6 all over again with the shitty scrubs arguing loudly, while they don't even play HA until they see a chance to farm a deer in a few days. 5 days of farming is all they need and whether it's 6v6 or Olias, it HAS to stay to provide them this opportunity. They'll be gone after the deer anyway... and so will everyone else except Olias.

Heroes were a bad idea as they hurt both pvp and pve. I would personally delete them completely. ofc, anet cant do that, so at least kick them from pvp. /signed.

fine. seems that a lot of you defending heroway are simply ignoring the meaning of PvP: competative gameplay. If you want to "farm" in HA maps why dont you go to tombs in pve? (no one is blocking that game content) If you want to get fame, then you have to be competative enough to get it. It's not a bad thing to lose against high-ranked ppl because they invested more time than you have, which means they are more familiar with the game than you, so why dont you try to learn the game a bit more instead of complaining here in forum?
and besides, if you think those who signed for getting rid of heros in HA/GvG were unable to beat them, how about trying this:

rule: only heroway and balanced can enter HA

I'll be very very thankful if you like it. xD

i thought there was a hero nerf awhile in ago in HA that allowed no more than 2 heroes or henchmen??
Really boring fighting against the new thumpway with a bunch of heroes

Heroway will not teach you anything. You cannot learn from each others mistakes because the Hereos with the CERTAIN bars they run have 0 margin for error. Assume Johnny plays nothing but Heroway until r9, he will not be a good monk/mesmer/etc cause he has no experience with other builds.

Hello? It does win Halls.

The only elitism here seems to be you. I remember you crying in a thread which was closed by YOU about 6v6 HA. Also quit crying about elitism. Elitism doesn't exist. People raging at you for not protting isn't elitism, it's called ignorance.

Thank you. Heroes have 0 margin for error with the PARTICULAR builds they run people!

Good point.

QFT. Ever since Nightfall pugging in PvE has also been pushed aside. Why pug when you can solo with Heroes?

Now this is rather condradictory, since most people that are hardcore PVP'ers in either HA or GVG prefer to play with heroes in PVE, reasons being that pugs dont listen and run decent builds.

Numerous PVP'ers people have said that heroes are the reason that they started PVE'ing.

And heroes didnt destroy pugs, this has been discussed countless times, Pugs destroyed themselves by their lack of decency. Most people that only hero/hench were actually playing with AI only since way before NF was released.

As for the 'elitism doesnt exist' OFC it does. How does a R0 player get into HA and find a decent group? And I have said before I have gotten to halls with Rankless players on a few occasions, Elitism is not accepting players if they can do the job based on their rank.

Heroes allow these low ranking people to play HA. If you dont like it, then how about playing with them instead?

And did IWAY/Vimway teach people anything? Countless players farmed easy to play skill-less gimmick builds and got their rank pretty high from doing that.

Regardless, if you see a player that is Rank 9, you cant tell no matter what they say how they really got that fame. And you can learn from heroway by making your own builds and using them. That is what players that like heroway like about it, you can pick up and play the build you want whenever you want, and that isnt a bad thing for me.

Just a note; look at the upcoming event for this weekend. Now, based on that, do you really think that they're listening to the people who always complain about HA?


I'd say it's not that hard, as long as the rest of the team actually tells me when the enchantments I'm supposed to be maintaining are no longer on them.

All I can say is, follow your own advice. I'm not the one complaining. The build most hero teams use, was probably made by a highly experienced HA player (or group of players).

/resigned
4 reasons
1. Heros (most) aren't human so disease and eoe dont affect them
2. Interupt skills- they interupt at an ungodly rate
3. corpses- can tell when a corpse comes open in miliseconds
4. THIS IS PvP NOT PvH

No, power has nothing to do with it. Although PvP does attract proud people. ANet encourages people to have pride in their accomplishments, from /rank to HA rewards to the new accomplishment hall that's going to be in their next release. If "pros" were not supposed to exist, then why is ANet encouraging them?

People are not denied emotes and titles; they are rewarded emotes and titles. The idea that you have to accomplish something to gain something has been in video games almost since the beginning. To unlock hard mode in the original Zelda you have to beat the game. If you only play it causally, you won't get there. It's a reward for beging devoted to their game.

You know, a while ago I was in a group doing a mission. I forget which mission, but that doesn't matter. My wife was one of our monks, and thank goodness for that, because the other monk did us a lot more harm than good. He constantly rushed in and got himself killed. He brought only a heal or two. And his elite was... Barrage. No, he wasn't doing some clever smite build, no Judge's Insight, he just brought Barrage.

At some point you must admit that:

1. people are better at playing this game than others.
2. you are better at playing than some people and not as good as others.

This is the beginning of pride. And after people devote a lot of time to their game, you can't expect them not to care when their devotion is made obsolete.

I completely agree, but that's a different discussion entirely. It still does not excuse abusing the advantages of heroes.

/notsigned, if your scared of fighting heroes then find a new hobby besides GvG and HA, if someone wants to show off their heroes then let them, just use heroes yourself. It's not that complicated an issue.

/semi-signed.

Heroes don't belong in HA.

In GvG... I dunno, doesn't seem as outlandish.

I know theres always been henchman... i just chose to ignore this fact because they are useless for everything but filling in for chars who error7 mid-run. Which as far as i see it, is the point. AI is not suppose to be a primary choice for a slot.

The point is AI is way too far advanced when it comes to observing the battlefield. Give them Discord, they use it the moment someone meets the condition, humans would actually have to find the target... give them an interrupt, they can use it to interrupt 1/4 cast time skills without there been any obvious build ups/chaining, they can spread hexes way more effectively than real players since they know exactly whats on each target. Call me crazy but i hardly see how thats fair on human players when they're up against AI in PvP that excels at the build its given to a point that easily defeats human teams.

I think trying to say that using TS/Vent to inform all allies of what enchantments are on each ally is a bit much... You would have a ridiculous blur of speech if everyone spoke or called when they used an enchantment or hex. In the end it would become even more confusing.

The main heroes used are Master of Whispers and Olias, both of which are affected by them. They just appear immune because many Hero builds use [wiki]Tainted Flesh[/wiki]. Also, the only non-human hero is Zhed, who has stopped being popular.


They also like to interrupt anything, no matter how useless.

So can I. If I really need some minions, I can just keep pressing a minion skill and it wont start casting until there's a corpse to use. I have beaten AI in races to use corpses many times.

The term PvP has always been on the edge of truth. Almost every type of "high-end" PvP has AI units who will fight among the players.

Besides, Hero battles are technically still PvP (and they only have 2 people involved). All you need for something to be PvP is two people fighting each other.

It did not take me long at all to cease PUGing. It had nothing to do with Farming - as I only started the tedious despicable act of farming within the last 10 days. It had nothing to do with Heroes as they did not exist. I henched all of the Fire Islands and Missions except Hell's with my Mesmer because no one wanted a mesmer until they needed interupts on the last boss. The reason I quit PUGing had more to do with the lack of strategy, tactics, unit cohesiveness, courtesy, and high number of Leroys. Why would anyone want to PUG? Almost all the people I do play with have some military experience, as do I.

Addiction generates income. Why do we no longer have janitors? Why are they Custodial Engineers? Because a sugar coating, however deceptive the poison it conceals, is still as sweet.

Really? So, where is the eye candy emotes for finishing the game and again in hard mode? Where are the PvE emotes that are the equivalent, if they are not denied. Instead, these things were held out as bait - "If you want them do anything you can think of to get them." Then people complain because it happens.
And dedication to the game is not determined by what kind of jerk one can be or how fast one can mash the keys, it is determined by whether or not you continue to purchase the game - even when things are being done wrong. I own all three games, 2 accounts, a total of 19 character slots, have the preview for and pre-order for GW:EN. That is the only dedication that counts at the bottom line for ANet.

That is not pride. It is meritorious realism. Pride is a matter of self-conceit wherein one arrogates themselves as superior to others. When President Eisenhower's mother was asked,"What do you think of your most successful son." She replied,"Whatever do you mean? I have three sons and they are all most successful." To accurately assess what one can and cannot do is a measure of wisdom. But to arrogate, regardless of opportunity or success, that one person is superior to the value of another is folly. That is what the elitism of PvP has promoted.
I have suggested things to ameliorate this slightly. One such suggestion was that before a combat could begin all avatars meet and salute one another, perhaps in an ante-chamber before being zoned to starting positions. Nor does this have to be interactive - it can be prescripted. But the ceremonial improves respect. I also think the same should be done after the battle is over, and anyone caught degrading the victors or vanquished should be suspended or banned.

If the rewards for PvP were not so exclusive, and at least had their equal in PvE, then there would be less incentive to crash PvP with power plays.

Fitz, you can leave the PvE vs PvP and which one ANet treats better at the door because that's completely irrelevant. Whether ANet treats PvP better or not doesn't make any excuses for debilitating it.

And forget about the assholes who /dance hump and scream "booya!" at the end of a match. They are jerks, and such jerks can (and do) also use heroway. What kind of ass a player is is irrelevant as well.

Pride can exist whether it's warranted or not. I'm talking about people who are legitimately proud of their skill. "Meritorious realism" sounds like another way of saying merited pride to me. People who hone their skills deserve those rather frivolous rewards of /rank. I don't have any /rank emote and couldn't care less. Do you really want them that badly that you want to rely on such a base strategy as heroway? It sounds more like you want to piss people off for having pride: you've such an unflattering definition of the word.

Dedication to the game is not just buying it. That is where they earn their money, but ANet too has pride in their work. They know they've made a hit and are pleased with themselves. If people bought it and didn't play it or played it briefly, they wouldn't be happy, even if people kept buying it. They're not just earning money; they're competing with MMORPGs. They're not just selling copies; they're trying to rock the gaming industry. This is why game designers often include bonus material that doesn't usually affect anyone's buying decision. This is why ANet throws in things like Wintersday, or tournaments. The whole reason titles were introduced is so people keep playing. 15K armour was there for that purpose as well.

And they have incentives for PvP as well. PvE does have rewards, perhaps more rewards than PvP does. Like I said, though, that's irrelevant to our discussion. But these PvP incentives are there and are mostly for people who keep at it, not for people who drop by every so often. If you don't care about pride, then never mind emotes, special armour, titles, weapon skins, rank, or even respect. If you're a casual players, PvP or otherwise, you can only expect to earn a small handful of these things. You still play the guts of the game though. With my job I can only really put in 3-5 hours a week on the game these days, and I don't expect to get all the titles.

Now to me Eisenhower's mother sounds like an idealist, more than a realist. I prefer my friend's mother who said, "you are my favourite son. Your brother's a bit of jerk." She said that in front of both of them. And she was right; my friend is going on to earning his masters, and his brother is still a fat lazy jerk. My father is a bit more fair, on the other hand. He says "I'm disappointed in all 5 of my sons. None of you turned out well." I'm not entirely sure what point I'm making there, but I think it's delightfully real.

Take heroes and hench out of all pvp. It's the only fair way.

Its player vs player, not Player&AI vs Player&AI.

Take out the ghostly hero too on maps where he is not necessary. His d-shot is so frickin annoying.

The ghostly actually has a purpose, killing him provides you with a nice morale boost

I keep seeing complaints about this - these teams are easy fame or easy faction, what exactly is the problem?

Yes, they're annoying to fight against. Yes, they make you work for the win.

If you're losing, get better. If you're annoyed, get better.

In HA these teams provide a boatload of fame, you get a full run instead of a skip from the zaishen to the hall, and IMO that's a great thing.

Do people seriously think that either GvG or HA are going to get more competitive if heros vanish? What you're going to see are more FOTM builds (poop 'n thump, ritspike, ...anyone?) not a magic improvement.

I was going to say this earlier but forgot to give it a mention - There are far worse things in HA that need sorting out before heroes, pretty much fotm builds like Rit spike and Hex spam, as well as 1v1v1 battles. Im not against kill counts in the slightest as all the leet players seem to be, but I am against 2 teams ganking 1 in 3 team battles.

Heroes in HA dont create any kind of imbalance, if you cant beat them you have other things to worry about then constant whining on forums.

I have never really been against any of Anets changes to HA, because for me they offered new ways of playing the game and required additional thinking beyond the 'Omg my same old (lame) builds dont work anymore /cry'.

/singed

we have HvH to watch bots fight...

/notsigned

If there is too many heroways in GvG, people will probably start to use often anti-builds and heroways will go away.

Heroes are very good if u have to quickly replace a missing player (for example AT or other tournament match) and u do not wish to lose at start because of "stupid" henchman or playing 7v8.

Probably now there are so many heroway teams because of Summer vacations - many guilds have few people to play. I've seen even top guilds playing with this build. This is observation about GvG. HA was always much more build-wars and heroway is just another one in collection to rt-spike, para-spike and others.

This is not PvP discussion thread, but here is so many long posts, so I'll add a few words for those trying to convice us that heroes are unbeatable.

Heroes have good AI, but in many points it's very "stupid". Just a few ideas. For example Olias casts tainted and does not carry of diversion. He can be catch up like a child. I have never catched a human tainted necro so many times during the GvG, even if he was from top 2000 guild. Heroes have problems with positioning, particularly if the team is moving (very often people forget about turning off a flag and you can easy kill hero standing alone).

We have played against heroway in GvG 3 times (3 times for sth like 20 games, so it's not tragedy, there is much more tabhex or melee pressure teams). First was terrible, we lost in a few minutes, but the last fight was until VoD (finally we lost, but it was not clear until the end who will win). Like in any build the key is turning off the key characters (for example turn off tainted by killing olias or using diversion and do not allow necros creating many minions - in this way you get rid of half enemy pressure).

We sometimes play HA with heroway if we do not have full team for GvG and any guests willing to play (from this point of view it's a pity HA turned back to 8 people, 6 was ideal for GvG guilds with not full squad today). Often after (or even before) fight opponents are calling us "noobs", and those who say it are playing ... rt-spike, para-spike or any other hated "noob" build.

/signed

It's nice when ppl tell "I created a new build and it works". But now 50% is playing the same boring build...
"Wow I copied a Herobuild and we pwnz0r a balanced team wich is making fun on vent" => Stop doing this plx

if u need to replace a player, ask in you'r alliance and they will be fighting to join you in gvg.