Online Gold... And the laws behind it?!

I remember reading before, not specifically about ANet but MMOs in general. The idea of making gold available for purchase in exchange for real life money brings a huge amount of legal issues and many visits from the IRS and political figures. I personally do not see the point in buying gold, but I also would not care if they made a legal avenue for it. However I assume it would simply be far too much of a hassle for them to provide that.

Then again I have given them real money for character slots that technically do not exist if a hard drive or two or twenty died....hrmmm

It's a game, although its suppose to simulate real-life economy, legalizing gold sales would just turn it into a battle of whose-got-a-bigger-wallet. There's a huge range audience, from kids and teenagers, to well off yuppies and young adults, and it would be highly unfair to expect kids to churn out the same amount of cash as an upper-middle class yupster.

Once a game does this, it gets dangerous. Even with the chinese gold farmers, they do have to put effort into the game to get the gold to sell. Anet can generate it out of thin air. Anet could also add a bunch of extra gold sinks if they wanted... it would create a lot more demand for gold purchases but would suck for everybody who just wants to play the game without buying gold.

Eve Online has something where it's OK for people to sell time cards in game for in game gold (ISK in this case). This seems to be a decent compromise since extra gold isn't getting added into the in game economy (all cash is obtained by a player). The company still gets all the money (the cash for the time card), one person gets the in game cash they want, and the other person gets benefits in the form of a time card.

I would like it if they did something similar in GW. We obviously don't need time cards but if people could buy and offer items from the in game store, like for instance extra char slots or upgrades like GWEN and trade them to others. Eve's economy didn't blow up so it seems viable.

Lets just IP-track botters, and kill them, thus stopping E-baying.

Problem solved. have a nice day!

This ignores the fact that third parties are profiting from it right now regardless of it being against the EULA. Worse, game companies aren't real enthusiastic about pressing the issue in court. The reason is because then a judge would rule on it... and it's possible the judge could decide that you actually have some rights to all that cool stuff in your inventory.

If that happens, game companies could get sued by players if the server crashed and they lost items, etc. So it remains a grey area because neither side really wants to lose.

Gold can be sold for real world cash right now. However, I don't see rampant crippling inflation in the in-game economy and I don't buy gold yet don't feel forced out of the economy entirely. Changes by Anet have actually reversed some of these trends... things like ectos cost less now.

The rampant inflation thing happened in EQ, but this was due to an exploit allowing players to DUPE items. That's what will kill an in-game economy quick. Fortunately Anet has been on the ball with regards to this and GW hasn't had that problem.

I would like to add that "selling time spent on work" is not a viable excuse. Time is a resource, and that has already been used to create a product. The gold. You cannot bake bread and sell the flour.

Whos ignoring the fact? What does my statement about the reasoning why its wrong have anything to do with the current state of affairs?

Placing a real world monetary value on virtual items that are meant to be playthings is very dangerous.

It brings taxes and lawsuits.

And ive mentioned before that a court judgement is what is needed so all MMORPGs can permanently shut down these guys based on a LEGAL and not EULA based reason.

And as ive mentioned before, its not just finding something to be legally wrong, but actually prosecuting it. Especially since a lot of these people operate outside the US jurisdiction, how can Anet get such laws upheld?

Just want to make some points that might not be obvious to some people.

-All MMORPGs since their first day of operation have coexisted with virtual gold sellers and power levelers.

-As longs the virtual currency can be used to purchase game items that are highly desired by someone, the virtual currency will be worth real life money.

-Millions of virtual currency has exchanged hands between buyers and farmers. Just check ebay log. It hasn't disabled any MMORPG's economy and won't disable any in the future.

-People with money will always have the best gear and character. It occurs in real life and it occurs in virtual world as well. Do you whine when you see someone driving a bmw in real life? No? Why whine and complain here in guild wars?

-No major MMORPG has ever banned a portion of user base based strictly on purchasing virtual currency. In essence, there is no punishment because the practice is so widespread. Although many MMORPGs like to threaten punitive actions and point out EULA agreements, this is mainly to pacify and appease "honest" players on the server.

-EULA document is a joke. Whatever contained in them is more or less irrelevant. It has never been rigorlessly challenged in court of law in the US. The golden rule is: Whoever runs the server can do whatever they please.

I understand your point, and how it would be nice to see a fair and equitable system being put into place so that the divide that exists in the real world would not be applicable in-game.

But as other posters have eloquently written, there is a haves and have nots divide in-game.

So, if I was one of the working, family type players who do not have the time to devote to this game that others do, why would you contend that it would be fair to effectively marginalize me, because my hypothetical time budget is spent elsewhere? Are you seriously suggesting that it is more or less fair to have players who have more time to play the game would be equivalent to them having a degree from an Ivy league college and therefore are entitled to more?

You are stating that the game world is fair. This is not the case. The fact that I have priorities that do not include spending actual currency on an intangible like guild wars gold is a choice of mine, and I do not begrudge it in the slightest. Even were they to legalize or start selling their own game gold, my money has better uses. My lawn needs mowing, which I do myself, and having a house entails maintenance, not to mention my eventual retirement.

But that does not alter the fact that those who have less available time are, gold-wise, poor compared to players who do. They have time to farm instead of kids and jobs (or in the case of gold farmers, that is their job) so they get more. This is the fair you are speaking of?

I find it interesting that you are willing to discard real-world references and analogies, which are applicable whatever you may say, and advocate fairness in a virtual world where, obviously, scarcity does not exist and inequality is based on time and inclination. Everyone can have everything in the virtual game-world, and we would all still have real beds to sleep in when we stop playing.

So, when you say fair, are you advocating an achievement engine so that players who have the time to play and grind (or the inclination and cash to purchase gold) can feel good about themselves by having virtual phat lewtz that they expect others to be impressed by, or an actually fair place? Hehe.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

If Anet ever actually did that I'd stop playing the game, and I'm quite certain most of the player base would go with me. The fun of the game is earning things, if people can just buy them it's not even a game anymore.

This isn't relevant at all. It is not against the rules to go to the hospital. People who have access to good medical care are intended to use it.

Buying gold using real cash is specifically against the rules.

A more fitting metaphor would be is a wealthy athlete cheating when he uses drugs in the olympics? He spent his own money on it after all, it should be none of your business. It's an unfair world.

Thinking the rule doesn't apply to you because you feel the rule is dumb is self-centered. If you do not like the rules, you do not play the game.

Going to a hospital doesn't violate any rules. Therefore your question is null and I'll ignore the rest of your post.

They never go off information on a fansite. I could easly put my character name as anything I wanted. I could then run around the forums telling everyone about how I bought gold. The person who actually plays that character isn't the only person who can put that name in their profile.

You don't need 15k armor, Crystalline Swords or even runes.

It is possible to beat the whole game with just 1k armor (no insignias) with collector weapons. All of which can be paid for with the money you get by simply playing. No excessive farming needed.

It can either inflates the economy and pretty soon the only way to obtain the vast sums to buy it, making their claim of "No additional fee's" wrong.

Or it will under-inflate the economy and people who had lots of gold are the only ones who will stay rich, as item prices will drop drastically (200 gold ectos?)

LOL really some people make a good rolfcopter at times.

First there are 2 economies in GW. 1 is Vanity based and the 2nd is needed items based.

Now onto the Vanity Based stuff, Gee some people think 15k armors are vanity based and should be extremely hard to get just look at what all the pro-loot scallers are saying in the numerous threads. And yet here we are most of you are saying about vanity weapons which are the same as vanity armors should be dirt cheap lol. Try to stay on the same side of the coin I think most of you guys flip flop more than a damn mcdonalds cook.

Now onto the needed things- such as skills and those. They have a fixed priced so no matter how much you wanna whine to Anerf there never was nor will there be any inflation on them due to how much money is ingame. Christ there is already an unlimited amount of gold ingame as it can be generated unlimited.

Now OT sorta
Frankly it was 100x better for everyone before lootscalling as it only took a few minutes farming to get needed items. Which made the game much more enjoyable for lots of people. There was no need then and now as we see more and more people are seeing a higher need to buy gold. Loot scalling is a big failure. Do I care or does it bother my gaming if someone buys it, not in the slightest bit. what does bother me is Anerfs damn botphobia.

But you really shouldnt be buying the gold, as stated in the EULA. Not that it bothers me 1 bit if you did or will do. As long as it makes your gaming fun is all that matters to me.

And to be honest with you all I truely cant wait till someone cracks open GW fully and can be ran on private servers which with the way things have been happing prolly wont be much longer.

Sigh. You and Curse You are not thinking this through. Hint - disparate economies.

So, suppose 1) if we were both US citizens, 2) I was a poor man with basic HMO medical, and 3) you were a wealthy person of indeterminate gender who needed no HMO yet still had one for convenience, and 4) we both need heart bypasses.

We have a business type contractual agreement with the HMO, which is equivalent in the United States courts system to (you guessed it) a EULA. They are both signed (or consented to by opening and using the product) business contracts. Neither is suable in a criminal court, unless there is financial harm. But, both ANet and our HMO have the option at any time to discontinue service if we break the agreement. That is their recourse specifically held by them and mentioned as their recourse if anyone should break the contract.

It is not against the criminal law system of the US, and incidentally people do it all the time, to go overseas for the specific and only purpose of obtaining medical care. Heart bypasses in Thailand are cheaper. Not to mention that they are literally resort communities, with spas and back massagers at local labor rates. Our HMOs do not pay for them, at all, and object to their use because the money is not going into their bank accounts.

Is it unfair for you, who can afford to go overseas, to do so to get patently better medical care than I, who is unable to pay the 50 thousand dollars for an overseas heart bypass and have to deal with my HMO? It is your money, and you have an option that I do not. We would only be breaking business contracts, BTW.

It is not quite so simple. And if it makes you feel better, substitute "want maxillofacial cosmetic surgery" for "need heart bypass".

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

A few of you guys have referred to gold farming businesses as being sweat shops, though this is actually not true and partly the basis for my constant defending of selling farmed gold.

A lot of the gold farming takes place in a few Asian countries, namely China where there is actually a market for gold farming employment. A recent article run by PCGamer (I think, though it may have been CGW) explained that those who work for a company that farms gold only get paid about a dollar an hour (after the American-Chinese exchange rate), but in their economy, a dollar an hour is actually a really decent payrate. It's equivalent to about $11 or $12 an hour over here.

A lot of companies will also provide housing for their farmers. So, $11 an hour AND FREE room and board???

Those sweatshops and treating their employees inhumanely :shakefist:

Political leaders of said countries have actually gone on the record and admitted that the market for gold farming has been benefitial for their markets and economies.



Of course, there is also the down side where one person without extra cash has to farm for weeks/months on end to grab that Obsidian armor, whereas those with access to cash can get the armor overnight for about $70. It provides a severe disadvantage for those with money over those without it.

Anyway, take that for what you will.



[edit] what I find really interesting is that even after loot scaling and nerfing the farming in-game, the companies have still found a way to get gold enough so that it is again about $7 for 100k. A few of my guildies never thought they would see that again.

Yes, but this divide exists solely due to time available (which you addressed) and player skill (which you didn't).

What? No one is "entitled" to anything. This is completely different from the real world, as I stated before. Everyone started from the same basis--having absolutely nothing--and everyone had to work their own way up (bought gold notwithstanding, and we're going to pretend it doesn't currently exist for the rest of this post). No one gets anything for free.

Everyone had to earn their own gold. Some people found better ways to do it than others, but that's due to their own skill and persistence. Time available isn't the only thing that matters--someone who is fantastic at playing the market will make more money in an hour than your average person will make farming in a week.

No, I am stating that fairness can be enforced absolutely in a virtual world.

Not necessarily. See above. I have a full-time job, and I wouldn't call myself poor, because I have found successful ways of getting money.

Yeah you let me know when a single entity starts altering the rules of reality.

Doesn't this agree with my point? Everyone can have everything if they are skilled enough to get it.

What's wrong with letting people who achieve things have something to show for their accomplishments? Who cares if they grinded for it, or got a single lucky drop, or played the market, or whatever?

In before this guy gets banned for admitting to being a Ebayer. Apparently some people didn't know buying gold online is illegal.

I know I’ve said it a 1000 times, but it still just boggles my mind that people will buy gold when it’s so easy to earn in GW. I’m a casual player that has earned a healthy amount of gold by simply playing the game for the last two years. That’s not saying I haven’t farmed some. Of course I have, but I’ve never gotten that “big ticket” item other than Victo’s Bulwark back in its heyday. Up until the loot scaling fiasco (yes, in my humble opinion it is still a fiasco and should be rolled back), gold was painfully easy to get in GW. But even now, gold is relatively easy to earn.

Now, here’s my disclaimer. I’ve lived a fairly conservative life in GW. I don’t have any chars with FoW armor. I have relatively few vanity weapons. What I do have, for the most part, I’ve gotten myself. But I’m happy with what I do have. All my chars have the armor and weapons they need to play the game. On a couple of chars I did splurge and get them 15k armor, but not for status. Simply because I liked the looks. The rest have your standard max armor and weapons and I’m content with that. So, I don’t believe anyone who tries to tell me they HAD to buy gold to play the game. It’s just not necessary.

Destroy all gold. Bartering FTW.

Or do what Zinger said. Marxism FTW.

Nice to know that ANet sells PvP unlock packs to people who can afford it. Now that is the model of fair, isnt it? They have acknowledged that money = time.

Rubbish. This game is not skill-based at all - oh I'm sorry, we can literally capture skill and condense it into a wiki, right? That is why we have all the basketballl and football wikis to help the NBA and NFL. Dood, perfect example direct from the wiki: "Since many enemies and Varesh herself deal ranged piercing-type damage, "Shields Up!" will greatly reduce the damage party takes." I can state that even the substandard AI for heroes uses this skill and makes the mission almost unlosable. Including one "skill" from the game. That does not constitute player skill to me.

Reading comprehension is more important than skill.

Uh huh.

Are you confusing titles in with this? Uh, no. As it is, the game makes you grind to unlock skills. Being that there are over 1100 skills in the game total, then counting out freebie quest rewards or hero points, you have 700+ skills that max out quickly to a plat each! So what, I can grind if I have the time, or simply pay ANet and unlock them all?

I want economic fairness, and you can keep your silly meaningless titles.

Thanks!
tabascoSauce

People have a bartering system now. Ectos.

A bartering system can be ebayed because anything that can be trade can become currency.

A system without any sort of trading...would be....boring.

Not to mention it would create people selling whole ACCOUNTS instead.

I'm evidently using a broader definition of 'skill' than you are. Skill can also be used to describe how quickly people can pick up playing the market, or perfecting that farming run, or similar things that many people might not consider 'skillful' or difficult.

Also, I never stated that skill was more important than time--merely that it is also a factor, one you did not even mention.

Can be enforced. I'm not saying it currently is, merely that it is certainly possible, unlike in real life.

Titles do partially enter into this, but no, I did not have them in mind.

Or you can play (and succeed) in PvP and unlock them that way--which, while still a grind, to be sure, is vastly based more on traditional skill than a hundred griffon runs.

For someone who works (which should be everyone, because it's summer), paying 22.5$(3 hours of work at minimum wage?) to get 500k is way better than farming for 3 hours and get what, 100k if you do it right? (most people don't know how to make 100k in a week). Farming isn't fun either. So buying is more time efficient. I don't have a problem with how many hours people waste playing the game, doing missions or pvp'ing, but farming (which is the best way to get money, besides powertrading but it's a lot harder) is just a more inefficient way to get gold if you have a job.

How is it fair that I farm for hours to buy nice weapons and armor and you simply go online and purchase gold and get the items...?

Its like those idiots that buy FoW and very rare weapons with ebay gold and then start showing off as if they earned it.

Anyway, Anet doesn't want people making money off their game and it is unfair for honest players, unlike you.. Oh yea, don't buy anymore gold.. you are just encouraging bots.

Yea it's definitely unfair, my post was just directed to those who find it stupid to pay real life cash for virtual items. It IS effective compared to the time you would spend to farm to get only a fraction of the gold you would if you bought it instead. And I don't buy gold anyway, since NF came out and flagging henches away from bosses was possible money was not a probelm.

Buying online gold with actual currency for use in GW is necessary only for aesthetic enhancements. That's all. Period.

I've appreciated the steps that the Guild Wars development team has taken to make GW gameplay a meritocracy. It's the main reason I play GW over any other RPG - one of my major frustrations with Diablo II (my other exposure to and RPG) was that individuals with particular high-end armors/weapons had an advantage in PvE and PvP gameplay than those who did not possess those items. Some arguement could be made that Sunspear/Lightbringer/Faction titles enhance gameplay, but at least those require time investment in the game.

You know what would be funny, though? An in-game credit agent. Need 100k for elite armor? Borrow it from the Xunlai Credit Agent. The sticking point? You have to pay the 100k back (with interest) in a certain period of time, or the Xunlai Collection Agents come and take ALL your stuff.

How is it fair that you have time to farm for hours on end and I don't?


Anet: End this silly discussion once and for all. Sell gold directly to people online.

You make money, working people get their stuff, and people who have time to farm pay less. Seems pretty fair to me.

Even after 2 months I'm still not grasping how a person could spend real money on virtual money that isn't real. The gold in Guild Wars is not real gold. Wouldn't it be smarter to spend money on actual gold than virtual gold?

Since there have been bots and gold farmers since the beginning, we have no basis of comparison. With no basis of comparison, how can you claim that there is or is not inflation? All we can do is look to what happens to other games with similar economic structures, and look at what happens when a-net changes the economic structure, and make educated about what things would look like without that incentive to farm massive amounts of gold.

And all your warriors/warrior heroes are running around with elemental swords, and all your rangers/ranger heroes are running around with 15^50 storm bows, and all your casters/casters heroes are running around with tormented staves, etc? While, thankfully, a-net has made sure that such things are vanity items, the fact remains that you can't afford them. Maybe your buying power (no doubt bolstered by more-hardcore-than-average playing and a year or two of saving up gold) may not be confined to buying upgrades to slap on collectors items, however it does not put you on par with the gold-buyers who can afford that stuff either. And, if the money supply were to further increase in proportion to the item supply, you would surely find your buying power dropping.

I might add that botters/third-world farmers are not the only force at work in the GW economy. The other major unbalancing force is a deflationary one - the cap on character slots functions as a cap on inventory. Once people reach the point where their inventories are so full that buying a new item means throwing away an old item that they were satisfied with, their demand for items to put in their inventory falls to near zero. The character slot limit is GW's "original sin" and I hardly expect that to change now. You might say that an inflationary force is needed to keep the character slot limit from deflating the economy to nothingness. In fact, I'd probably agree with you. But botting/third-world farming/official gold-selling is NOT a good form for that inflationary force to take.

That's right. Now let's look at those changes a little more closely. The price of ectos started to fall following the implementation of loot scaling. And what did loot scaling do? It reduced the money supply by reducing the availability of vendor-trash white items that bots and third-world farmers convert into gold. Something they did to fight the bots/third-world farmers actually worked and actually lowered inflation. It makes no sense at all to now turn around and do the opposite.

Good post Chthon. I'd like to nuance your post though - if the money supply were to further increase in proportion to the item supply, you would surely find your buying power dropping specifically for the player to player economy and the items within it.

If the money supply were to expand, the buying power for static cost items such as skills or armors would increase.

I see a lot of players who are totally focused on the player to player economy, but they are not paying attention to the silent majority - people like me who have little or no interest in FoW or irridescent anything, we just want easier access to the basics - such as skills, 1.5K armors, +1 runes for heroes, on and on. All this, per character slot comes up to a lot of money. I got Prophecies on launch day, and have been playing off and on since, and I have not gotten all the basics for all my characters. Money would go a long way to fixing that, but as I said earlier it is not important enough to me to pay actual cash for.

What I am seeing here is a lot of acrimony and gnashing of teeth for bots and the players who buy gold. Making things naughty has never worked, see prohibition, and for the umpteenth time there is no criminal law anywhere in the world that you can be charged with for buying gold - you are breaking a contractual business agreement with ANet and they can deny you service, nothing less, nothing more. That is their right, and they reserve it in print.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

By the same token, how do you justify the time you "waste" playing the game?

Couldn't you be making money instead?

The answer is, of course, you play the game because (hopefully) you enjoy it.

I wish I could play the game more... but, alas, having a full time job and children means I have bigger priorities.

As a result, I have more money than free time. Therefore, for me at least, it makes since to spend my money on things I enjoy. In this case, I would spend more money if Anet offered more things for me to buy.

To allow purchases of gold would be to allow those with disposable income an advantage over those who don't.
The value of gold would lessen to the point where players who have a difficult time with gold already would be forced to purchase gold to "keep up with the joneses" because gold would be worth so little because of 11 year olds with weekly allowances blowing off their cash on in-game gold.

Second Life is a game that is very much about commerce, has a strong economy and is owned by Linden Labs. Linden Labs sells the currency (L$) that is used in the game. On their index page, they have a link to buy and sell L$. And they show a daily tally of how much money has been spent in the game. At the moment of this post, the 24 hour total is US$1,160,974. That's over one million dollars spent in one day in a game.

That would be a good company to work for if they have profit sharing.

What if ANet decided to sell gold, but put a limit on how much gold a person can buy per week? 100k a week might not be a lot for the pro farmers, but it's a lot to the casual players.

Second life isnt a game.....

And second life allows you to sell YOUR content. Content that YOU programmed,modeled/textured/animated, etc.

This is significantly different from Guild Wars and MMORPGs in general.

The question is what do ppl use with gold and yes there are your basics that you need.Then you have eventually wanting Vanity items 15K armour and good greens and golds.The thing is you don't need to sell gold online just produce more of it in game make the drops bigger to directly compete with the gold sellers.Then get rid of some of the gold sinks like 100 gold fee to invite to invite someone into your guild and some others.

They could make the total cost of 15K armour just that all 5 pieces costing 15K not just 1 piece as with 1K armour are at 5K for 1 set.That would mean all you need for 1 set of 15K is mats and 15K.When done this way the average casual gamer can then afford to save for 1 set of 15K.Anet doesn't need to sell gold online just put more of it in game and it won't ruin the economy and to heck with bots.

Hi Lyra...

I agree with you. IMO, SL is not a game, but the argument still rages on. In fact, the wikipedia entry on Second Life mentions the 'dispute' and concludes that it is a game on a 'basic level'.

But whether I agree with that or not is immaterial. That people do is reason enough for me to concede and go ahead and use the term... on a basic level... I don't have a strong need to be right... ya know what I mean?

And whether it's a game or not is immaterial to my point. I just mentioned it to show that online commerce can be very lucrative for the owner of the... of the... of the... whatever you want to call the 3D app that incorporates commerce. And GW obviously incorporates commerce or there wouldn't be gold in the game and the OP wouldn't have started this discussion about the gold.

...deleting the point of it being 15k armor. At that point you could pretty much just buy the basic. The only difference is looks anyway.

You do not "need" the 15k armor/epeen weapon. You want it. The EULA has been the same on this since Proph came out. Gold can not be bought or sold for RL cash. If you violate it Anet can ban you. If you're playing, you clicked the I Agree button when you started. If you didn't read it, well, that's too bad really, you're bound to it anyway. Buy or sell gold, you're banned.

Personally, I disagree completely with buying gold. I have been playing since first release. I "worked" hard to learn how the market works, how to farm back in the day etc, and earned my 15k sets, weapons fow etc. Point is, you do NOT need big gold to play just fine. You can use basic armor, collector stuff and guess what? heros do FINE without runes and insignias lol I've completed nf with 7 chars whose heros had nothin' but 1 major rune a piece (100g lol) and they were NO harder than the chars who did. We need gold sinks for those with tons of cash, NOT EVERY PLAYER. Every person does not "need" or "deserve" fow etc any more than every person on Earth needs and deserves a luxury sportscar.