Today I was playing through Sunjiang District and I joined a pug attempting masters. The pug was unable to find a monk so the leader asked if anyone had heroes. Only me and one other player had heroes so we both added a dunkoro to fill the team. Well this other player pinged the build he had on his dunkoro and it was a "questionable" build at best.
He had 3 divivne favor, 12 healing prayers and 12 protection prayers.
Skills:
aegis
mend ailment
remove hex
shield hands
protective spirit
orison of healing
dwayna's kiss
mending
Well I promptly questioned this person's build by saying, "only 3 divine favor? you shouldn't focus on both healing and protection just do one. Its kind of like jack of all trades, master of none." Well this player proceeded to blast me calling me an "elitist fag" and that he can play any way he wants. :|
Well i left the group right away but it just annoyed me that i was just trying to be constructive and he gets mad at me. I wasn't saying "your build sucks u stupid noob." So has ppl being elitist made players angry at any criticsm at all?
Has elitism made players ignore all suggestions?
Inger
Yichi
I wouldnt say that was a case of elitism, but more of a case of someone being stubborn, which is blamed for being elitist in most of the given situations.
and his build wasnt questionable, it was crap, But your analogy of not specing into both healing and prot isnt a valid argument. many good monk bars dabble into a good mix of both and are very efficient at what they do.
and his build wasnt questionable, it was crap, But your analogy of not specing into both healing and prot isnt a valid argument. many good monk bars dabble into a good mix of both and are very efficient at what they do.
Darkobra
You're right. That build is quite unstable. Particularly "mending". It seems his build is mainly protection based so he'd be better off sticking with all Protection in the first place. You were right to call him on it and even moreso to leave. I'm always fixing the skills of my friend's heroes and tell them "While it is a good build for a human player to use, an NPC would find a way to end up getting themselves killed in the process of using it." Nothing wrong with their builds, just the AI itself using it.
But in your case, it's a shoddy build with so much in healing and so few healing skills in ratio compared to the rest of the build. And mending is just a flat out "no".
But in your case, it's a shoddy build with so much in healing and so few healing skills in ratio compared to the rest of the build. And mending is just a flat out "no".
Zinger314
That's a satisfactory build (except Mending, of course) for a mission as easy as Sunjiang District. (I can beat it in less than 10-15 minutes, yes, it's easy.)
There was no need to critize that build.
Elite missions are another story.
There was no need to critize that build.
Elite missions are another story.
Yin Twin
I think you ran into one of the many people out there who think thier s*&^ don't stink. It is hard to try to suggest something better when it comes to builds without sounding condecending.
I can see it a little and I mean little from his side, one always seems to get blasted from someone when pinging builds
Still, that was no reason for him to get all huffy and
I can see it a little and I mean little from his side, one always seems to get blasted from someone when pinging builds
Still, that was no reason for him to get all huffy and
Chicken Ftw
Elitism, no. Stupidity and inability to comprehend game mechanics, yes.
Lord Feathers
And folks wonder why I would rather have guildies or heroes in my party ? Honestly most PUGS have been a 95% failure rate in most instances I have tried them. I've also been blasted for being a noob myself because I don't carry the standard " X " build for whatever character I happen to be playing or perhaps my hero isn't set up that way. Honestly with the HUGE selection of skills, ways to compliment team mates, or simply build a team using heroes many folks still stick to the cookie cutter or standard P vs E builds. There are many ways to skin a cat.
I have on numerous times beaten missions using heroes and henchies where groups are still looking for that " X " build character before they even enter the mission. Aside from that it's the people that make the game. I've had just as much fun with friends getting my butt handed to me scratching my head saying " Well that didnt work ". But I have also beaten some Hard Mode missions with the guild and I know many people ( those wanting a PUG ) simply would have fled.
I have on numerous times beaten missions using heroes and henchies where groups are still looking for that " X " build character before they even enter the mission. Aside from that it's the people that make the game. I've had just as much fun with friends getting my butt handed to me scratching my head saying " Well that didnt work ". But I have also beaten some Hard Mode missions with the guild and I know many people ( those wanting a PUG ) simply would have fled.
Ludo
I dont see it as elitism either, some people are just too defensive. He should have accepted some criticism without flying off the handle but at the same time I've personally run into a few overlord team leaders lately and they are quite a pain. "Change this, change that. Take out the skill cap, this elite sucks".
It gets pretty tiresome, especially when the team leader isn't as smart as he thinks. The other day I was the 7th team mate in, took us 20 minutes to leave because this team was like a first year literary critique class full of bad writers. But in this case I see where you we're coming from. It wasn't the best build. Hero monks are usually either great or absolute junk from what I've seen.
It gets pretty tiresome, especially when the team leader isn't as smart as he thinks. The other day I was the 7th team mate in, took us 20 minutes to leave because this team was like a first year literary critique class full of bad writers. But in this case I see where you we're coming from. It wasn't the best build. Hero monks are usually either great or absolute junk from what I've seen.
Darkobra
That reminds me of a story I remember hearing about. In DoA, some one claimed to be THE best player in Guild Wars and made the entire team change their builds to questionable skill combinations. 5 minutes later, every one died and it was every one's fault but his.
Pae
heh, that was just one of the special exceptions. You'll always hit people who think that their build is the best in the world without having any reasons. Even if the mission is easy, there's no reason not to use a good build... .
With PUGs, I'd have to say that when I use one, usually only for Master's/Elite areas, they probably have at least a 50%-75% chance of succeeding. For elites, it's closer to 25% or so. -_- Most don't get past the first four rooms in The Deep now.
With PUGs, I'd have to say that when I use one, usually only for Master's/Elite areas, they probably have at least a 50%-75% chance of succeeding. For elites, it's closer to 25% or so. -_- Most don't get past the first four rooms in The Deep now.
??Ripskin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
That's a satisfactory build (except Mending, of course) for a mission as easy as Sunjiang District. (I can beat it in less than 10-15 minutes, yes, it's easy.)
There was no need to critize that build. Elite missions are another story. |
(getting that 12 characters)
mr_groovy
My guess is that he gets comments a lot on his builds, and thus raged ^^
Mending + no elite + 3 divine favor == gg
Btw aegis as a good skill is rather questionable for a hero, 15 energy is not something u want your hero to use a lot....
Mending + no elite + 3 divine favor == gg
Btw aegis as a good skill is rather questionable for a hero, 15 energy is not something u want your hero to use a lot....
populationcontrol
yeah maybe this case he overreacted but i can guaratee everyone that is that defensive like that has been seriously harrased in whisper chat at some point in the game for making a mistake, people should be more tolerant of new players. i remember getting random abuse for not having expensive armor from random people, and i must confess i have called people noobs. i dont see who you could have possibly offended him but its more than likely he just had an unpleasant encounter with someone else and was "on guard" if you will.
MithranArkanere
Ok... if that build was in a lvl2..17 Prophecies character there would be no problem.
But being in a hero in Factions, when you can unlock Word of healing just by doing a couple of Training arenas... it only show the laziness of that guy.
That was not elitism, that was a sensible advice. If you don't listen to other's advices, you'll never learn.
And divine favor is the difference between healing 50 and 100. And I'd rather have a Monk focuses either on healing or protection than wasting energy like that.
But being in a hero in Factions, when you can unlock Word of healing just by doing a couple of Training arenas... it only show the laziness of that guy.
That was not elitism, that was a sensible advice. If you don't listen to other's advices, you'll never learn.
And divine favor is the difference between healing 50 and 100. And I'd rather have a Monk focuses either on healing or protection than wasting energy like that.
neoflame
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
Btw aegis as a good skill is rather questionable for a hero, 15 energy is not something u want your hero to use a lot....
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
And I'd rather have a Monk focuses either on healing or protection than wasting energy like that.
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Evilsod
Because most people in pugs are incapable of accepting criticism from other players because they all think there builds are uberleet... if your can't justify why you've made the build the way it is then you have no reasons to keep it.
lakatz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Inger
...Well I promptly questioned this person's build by saying, "only 3 divine favor? you shouldn't focus on both healing and protection just do one. Its kind of like jack of all trades, master of none."
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free_fall
I used to get that all the time on my SS nec/mo - "what? no echo?" or "you can't be a real SS without echo". Hadn't heard that in months, tho, until it happened again just last week. I always tell them I find res more useful than echo.
Sometimes, it's just a question of how something's said and the player's mood atm.
Yesterday, my R was in a group that included another R, who asked me if I had any good bows. Without thinking I said, "yes, but I'm using them" and he says something like "hey, I was only asking". I realized I'd offended him and immediately apologized.
Maybe I said that because I thought he wanted to 'borrow' one or buy or sell me one, I don't know. I should have just said, yes, I've got a couple of nice bows, how about you?
Sometimes, it's just a question of how something's said and the player's mood atm.
Yesterday, my R was in a group that included another R, who asked me if I had any good bows. Without thinking I said, "yes, but I'm using them" and he says something like "hey, I was only asking". I realized I'd offended him and immediately apologized.
Maybe I said that because I thought he wanted to 'borrow' one or buy or sell me one, I don't know. I should have just said, yes, I've got a couple of nice bows, how about you?
MithranArkanere
Quote:
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Originally Posted by neoflame
It's 10e now. Still questionable? Probably.
It's easily possible to run something from Healing and something from Prot effectively at the same time. Good thing, too, because monks have been doing so almost universally since the boonprot nerf (for either GoH or LoD in the Healing line). |
Yichi
since 9 is the major breakpoint for a majority of the monks prot skills on that bar, a 13 heal,11 divine, 9 prot would have been better.
neoflame
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
Yet 11,10,10 is still better than 12,12,3 for that.
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martialis
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pae
Even if the mission is easy, there's no reason not to use a good build... .
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I've seen worse than that in hard mode, but there's no bitching in hard mode.
Winterclaw
No hard res, no elite, and mending combine for a fairly bad hero monk build. I wouldn't call it elitistism like the others, but I would call it a pig-head who needs to learn about the game a little more. If he wanted to use that by himself he could, but part of the thing about having real people in a party is working together.
I would go easish on him if he was new to the game, but if he was playing for awhile then he really is going to have some problems.
I would go easish on him if he was new to the game, but if he was playing for awhile then he really is going to have some problems.
Phantom Gun
Could go either way really. I'm not going to comment on his build. In regards to his attitude, well he could of been on the defensive due to flaming from other people, or he could of thought his build was the pwn button. Either way there is nothing wrong with trying to make suggestions, or questioning somebody else's build, it's when you just flame them and then auto kick them when it becomes a problem. It's also a problem when people try to suggest builds for a profession they don't understand. I'm not saying that's what happened with you, i'm just covering a few possible scenarios. 
against
Christ, that is pretty terrible. How can someone have so little common sense? It gives me a headache.
Gregslot
I would be happier if i were as ignorant as these people!
Those lucky bastards!
After people kicking me out of the group at The Deep because i used Glyph of Renewal and Meteor Shower i gave up doing anything that did not involved henchies or heroes.
So there you go, you found out that there are people THAT stupid and narrow-minded
Those lucky bastards!
After people kicking me out of the group at The Deep because i used Glyph of Renewal and Meteor Shower i gave up doing anything that did not involved henchies or heroes.
So there you go, you found out that there are people THAT stupid and narrow-minded
the_jos
I think a lot of people would comment our guild teams to have some form of 'elitism'.
We don't mind people not being able to run a specific build (unless asked for that specific build when making a team). However, when the bar looks odd, we do ask questions on the how and why of that build.
On the other hand, we do kick people from teams now and then.
It happens very infrequent and only when people use builds that are totally messed up and they don't want to change.
Like the W/Mo we encountered last time in Great Northern Wall with points in every attribute, skills spread. When we asked why he had points in Hammer mastery and no hammer skill, there was no solid reaction. And he would/could not change the build.
Now, I don't mind doing this mission with such a person in Normal Mode, but Hard Mode is a different story
There is one little thing I'd like to comment to:
I do agree on the mending. The no elite can also mean it's a new player that does not have the right elites unlocked.
The 'no hard res' is questionable.
When I use hero monks, I disable res, if it's even on the bar.
I want the monk to heal and not res.
Hero monks tend to combat res and that can turn out very wrong, specially with a skill like Rebirth.
We don't mind people not being able to run a specific build (unless asked for that specific build when making a team). However, when the bar looks odd, we do ask questions on the how and why of that build.
On the other hand, we do kick people from teams now and then.
It happens very infrequent and only when people use builds that are totally messed up and they don't want to change.
Like the W/Mo we encountered last time in Great Northern Wall with points in every attribute, skills spread. When we asked why he had points in Hammer mastery and no hammer skill, there was no solid reaction. And he would/could not change the build.
Now, I don't mind doing this mission with such a person in Normal Mode, but Hard Mode is a different story
There is one little thing I'd like to comment to:
Quote:
| No hard res, no elite, and mending combine for a fairly bad hero monk build. |
The 'no hard res' is questionable.
When I use hero monks, I disable res, if it's even on the bar.
I want the monk to heal and not res.
Hero monks tend to combat res and that can turn out very wrong, specially with a skill like Rebirth.
Curse You
I've had to tell people that their hero builds have rather obvious flaws. One of the most common of which is the lack of an energy management skill.
Unlike people, heroes need something for energy management because they're too dumb to know when a good time to use a skill is. They will commonly use a 25 energy skill on a target that is about to die (Meteor Shower anyone?). Add to that the fact that most AI monks will heal people with some of the most costly (and powerful) heals when that person has only lost a small bit of health, thus wasting away their energy.
I'm been finding this amazingly more true now. I tried doing Grand Court of Sebelkeh on my mesmer a few days ago, and every PUG I joined failed it. I later did it with a guldmate and 6 heroes, and we did it with near masters completion.
The word "should" is suggestive by nature. It is not a demand, and anyone who takes it that way should consider re-learning English.
Unlike people, heroes need something for energy management because they're too dumb to know when a good time to use a skill is. They will commonly use a 25 energy skill on a target that is about to die (Meteor Shower anyone?). Add to that the fact that most AI monks will heal people with some of the most costly (and powerful) heals when that person has only lost a small bit of health, thus wasting away their energy.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lord Feathers
And folks wonder why I would rather have guildies or heroes in my party ? Honestly most PUGS have been a 95% failure rate in most instances I have tried them.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lakatz
If you indeed approached him using the words you've put into quotes, I can understand why he responded the way he did. "You should (or shouldn't)..." is aggressive language and, in this case, it appears your advice ("You shouldn't") is unsolicited. Unsolicited advice is much more likely than not going to receive an angry response.
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OrangeArrow
You have to understand that most people who know what they are doing these days dont Pug Missions anymore. I been messing around in GW again after few months away and I have been messing around in pugs for shits and giggles and it seems that the only people that do pugs are New People who really dont understand the game well enough yet or People who suck at their class but dont know it (DPS with crap damage, healers that cant heal).
The sad part is at the end they go on about how uber "We" are yet inside i feel like i basically carried the team. I have been in some good pugs the last few days but the huge majority are clueless.
by the looks of skill in the post im guessing the guy hasnt really played monk much and probabaly doesnt have a huge pool of skills to choose from.
The sad part is at the end they go on about how uber "We" are yet inside i feel like i basically carried the team. I have been in some good pugs the last few days but the huge majority are clueless.
by the looks of skill in the post im guessing the guy hasnt really played monk much and probabaly doesnt have a huge pool of skills to choose from.
yesitsrob
personally i think hard resses on a monk are pretty epic fail. You really would do a much better job of keeping people alive if you used your 8 slots for doing that.
Government Flu
You know, I do miss the old days when the game was entirely new and fresh for me and everything was ripe for exploration and experimentation. Joining a PUG was always a strange and sometimes frustrating or wonderful experience, changing skills, figuring out the strengths and weaknesses of my chosen first class...
But these days I lack the patience to join PUGs. Whenever I do, 9 times out of 10 it ends in disaster. For instance, after hero/henching all of the previous missions in Factions with my monk, I decided to join a party for Eternal Grove. However, we were ripped apart. I had a good build, I was healing well but we just weren't handling the mission well as a whole.
I ended up leaving the group after we were wiped and beat the mission using my heroes and henchmen on my first try. (As a monk.)
Although I do have to admit, being in a PUG these days is usually comedic. It's interesting to see warriors using conjure phantasm and suffering...
On a final note, I don't think people should become so competitive too fast! It'll ruin the fun of the game. After you learn the ropes, so many things lose their charm and become automatic, so yeah...the original poster's build might be very ineffective, but it's something he designed and it's something he's probably proud of.
Since this game is usually a long term commitment, there's no rush!
But these days I lack the patience to join PUGs. Whenever I do, 9 times out of 10 it ends in disaster. For instance, after hero/henching all of the previous missions in Factions with my monk, I decided to join a party for Eternal Grove. However, we were ripped apart. I had a good build, I was healing well but we just weren't handling the mission well as a whole.
I ended up leaving the group after we were wiped and beat the mission using my heroes and henchmen on my first try. (As a monk.)
Although I do have to admit, being in a PUG these days is usually comedic. It's interesting to see warriors using conjure phantasm and suffering...
On a final note, I don't think people should become so competitive too fast! It'll ruin the fun of the game. After you learn the ropes, so many things lose their charm and become automatic, so yeah...the original poster's build might be very ineffective, but it's something he designed and it's something he's probably proud of.
Since this game is usually a long term commitment, there's no rush!
$neekie
At the risk of getting flamed at, there are 2 sides.
It all really depends how its asked, yesterday i ragged quit a group(still in town) because of L33t(sry to even use the word) babbles. Im al for giving advice but dont tell me what to do, yes im relativly new(play on and off for a year) but im a good ranger, done most missions(got masters on most).30 min waiting for group AND 30 min telling everybody what his/her build should be, then telling me i should change profesions(wich i refused, the hole point of me doing that mission wich i already mastered, was trying out the diffrent combo s) after that i left the group.
But im just now gettin serious in playing this game, reading more, trying out more skills ect. Thats half the fun for me, i dont use the regular builds(maybe i do, i dont know)............its just fun to try out everything yourself( dont tell me to practice with hench because that not nearly the same as a live group).
And yes i sometimes make beginer mistakes(yesterday forgot res for my pet,lol), but at that point i had a patient group, i told my mistake np. We did it again and we got it. Some(a lot) people still learning, so some patience would be nice from longtime players.
Sry to come on strong, but i always ask wenn i join a group, if i need to take something. 90% of the time i dont even get a answer, or get kicked for being a n00b because they think i dont know what to bring, duh. And yes sometimes i dont have clue what people are talking about lol........... but i ask or try to look it up.
mzzls
It all really depends how its asked, yesterday i ragged quit a group(still in town) because of L33t(sry to even use the word) babbles. Im al for giving advice but dont tell me what to do, yes im relativly new(play on and off for a year) but im a good ranger, done most missions(got masters on most).30 min waiting for group AND 30 min telling everybody what his/her build should be, then telling me i should change profesions(wich i refused, the hole point of me doing that mission wich i already mastered, was trying out the diffrent combo s) after that i left the group.
But im just now gettin serious in playing this game, reading more, trying out more skills ect. Thats half the fun for me, i dont use the regular builds(maybe i do, i dont know)............its just fun to try out everything yourself( dont tell me to practice with hench because that not nearly the same as a live group).
And yes i sometimes make beginer mistakes(yesterday forgot res for my pet,lol), but at that point i had a patient group, i told my mistake np. We did it again and we got it. Some(a lot) people still learning, so some patience would be nice from longtime players.
Sry to come on strong, but i always ask wenn i join a group, if i need to take something. 90% of the time i dont even get a answer, or get kicked for being a n00b because they think i dont know what to bring, duh. And yes sometimes i dont have clue what people are talking about lol........... but i ask or try to look it up.
mzzls
Longasc
I think discussing a build with a PUG is pretty pointless.
You might be right, they might be right, but most seem unable to come to a compromise or willing to work together. Solution: Friends, Heroes, Henchmen.
PUGs suck for so many reasons, I do not find them enjoyable and wonder that people still "LF random guyz to play with".
You might be right, they might be right, but most seem unable to come to a compromise or willing to work together. Solution: Friends, Heroes, Henchmen.
PUGs suck for so many reasons, I do not find them enjoyable and wonder that people still "LF random guyz to play with".
Darkobra
Hench and heroes will always be the best for me. They listen to orders, they actually ATTACK the monks when told to and they aren't ignorant, elitist whiners who'll talk about how good they are at the game and demand a res before they rage quit.
DarkNecrid
"On a final note, I don't think people should become so competitive too fast! It'll ruin the fun of the game. After you learn the ropes, so many things lose their charm and become automatic, so yeah...the original poster's build might be very ineffective, but it's something he designed and it's something he's probably proud of.
Since this game is usually a long term commitment, there's no rush!"
QFT
Since this game is usually a long term commitment, there's no rush!"
QFT
Fril Estelin
To the OP (and others): I wish I could PUG with people like you, I'm not that experienced but I can appreciate when others advice are beneficial. We (the newbs, not part of the n00b population ) want more people with friendly advice!
Thanks guys! (until I'm the guy to give advice )
) want more people with friendly advice!Thanks guys! (until I'm the guy to give advice
)
free_fall
"The word "should" is suggestive by nature. It is not a demand, and anyone who takes it that way should consider re-learning English."
should – auxiliary verb
1. past tense of shall.
2. (used to express condition): Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
3. must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency): You should not do that.
4. would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt): I should think you would apologize.
[...] Because the main function of should in modern American English is to express duty, necessity, etc.
So, if I was merely intending to suggest, rather than saying "you should", I would say "you might try" or "you might consider" looking things up in a dictionary.
should – auxiliary verb
1. past tense of shall.
2. (used to express condition): Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
3. must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency): You should not do that.
4. would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt): I should think you would apologize.
[...] Because the main function of should in modern American English is to express duty, necessity, etc.
So, if I was merely intending to suggest, rather than saying "you should", I would say "you might try" or "you might consider" looking things up in a dictionary.
Chicken Ftw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by yesitsrob
personally i think hard resses on a monk are pretty epic fail. You really would do a much better job of keeping people alive if you used your 8 slots for doing that.
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pingu666
ive seen worse, mystic regen on a monk XD
some pugs are epic fail, like a ranger using bha and dilbitating shot on shiro (in hardmode), but some are good
3.55 at grand court on my assassin, with a pug, for example
some pugs are epic fail, like a ranger using bha and dilbitating shot on shiro (in hardmode), but some are good
3.55 at grand court on my assassin, with a pug, for example
Anphobia
The worst part about builds for me these days is being a necro and NOT being a minionmancer, I hate it when I join a group and it's always "hi mm"..."no blood (or whatever). *kicked*.
And theres me...again looking for another party.
I mean, you could have a blood necro AND a minionmancer...either way my necro is a good damage dealer and would've done that team good.
And theres me...again looking for another party.
I mean, you could have a blood necro AND a minionmancer...either way my necro is a good damage dealer and would've done that team good.