Whats the point of causing exhastion to a ritualist?
Echuu Ishtar
If anybody thinks Rits are now officially dead in PvE because they have to cut back on a couple spirit turrets, please go find another game to play. That's just really sad. Go play a Final Fantasy game, summon the best Aeon/GF/Esper possible to kill your enemies over and over, and be glad that your lack of skill will never get touched in an offline game.
GloryFox
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posted by Diddy bow Channeling magic is pretty much air magic, so it should have exaulstion like air magic as well. |
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Criminally Sane
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Originally Posted by GloryFox
So your saying a Minion master should have exhaustion for animate Shambling horror or Vamperic horror? Because they essentially do the same thing. How about exhaustion on Ranger Traps? People run into those too you know.
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Tachyon
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Originally Posted by Criminally Sane
Who's whining here? lol. Irony!
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Riotgear
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Originally Posted by GloryFox
So your saying Ritualists should have the energy storage of Ele's too? How about Channeling Attunement or Conjure Channeling?
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| So your saying a Minion master should have exhaustion for animate Shambling horror or Vamperic horror? Because they essentially do the same thing. How about exhaustion on Ranger Traps? People run into those too you know. |
Steps_Descending
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Originally Posted by GloryFox
So your saying Ritualists should have the energy storage of Ele's too? How about Channeling Attunement or Conjure Channeling?
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Originally Posted by GloryFox
So your saying a Minion master should have exhaustion for animate Shambling horror or Vamperic horror? Because they essentially do the same thing. How about exhaustion on Ranger Traps? People run into those too you know.
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And traps are easily interupted and have a range shorter than agro zone AND cause non-stacking condition (thus removable) AND are activated once WHEN someone walks in them.
I'm not sure how those are used in PvP nor if the nerf was too much (i'm tempted to say it is), but spirits seem much more worse than the traps.
pingu666
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Originally Posted by Criminally Sane
Oh please. MMs have to use a corpse to put up each minion, that's their limitation. Rits don't need anything but energy, now they have a limitation as well on a few select skills. Also, traps are somewhat useless outside of RA.
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pve wise, spirit turrets are pretty shit compaired to minions
Vyral
The addition of exhaustion to Anguish, Dissonance, and Disenchantment, with the associated 15e reduction in casting cost is probably not that big of a deal. What I can't understand is the addition of exhaustion to Wanderlust.
Wanderlust now is at the same level or even worse than some of the previously 25e spirits. Compare this to Dissonance (non-elite). Same energy cost, same casting time, both have useful disruptive secondary effects, Dissonance has shorter duration but shorter recharge time to match, Dissonance deals its own damage while Wanderlust deals 0 damage, both now cause exhaustion. Dissonance now appears at least equal to or even better to Wanderlust, and is not elite. I'm not convinced that KD vs Interrupt is such a big advantage that it warrants elite status -- especially with the disparity in spirit damage.
Wanderlust now is at the same level or even worse than some of the previously 25e spirits. Compare this to Dissonance (non-elite). Same energy cost, same casting time, both have useful disruptive secondary effects, Dissonance has shorter duration but shorter recharge time to match, Dissonance deals its own damage while Wanderlust deals 0 damage, both now cause exhaustion. Dissonance now appears at least equal to or even better to Wanderlust, and is not elite. I'm not convinced that KD vs Interrupt is such a big advantage that it warrants elite status -- especially with the disparity in spirit damage.
Abbess
Ok let me show you how this is a buff in disguise...
We will take Dissonance as an example. This is what it used to be:
-25 Energy Cost
-5 Second Cast time
-45 Second Recharge
Now we will look at its current stats:
-10 energy Cost
-5 Second Cast Time
-20 Second recharge
-Exhaustion
Here is a quote from wiki about exhaustion.
Exhaustion reduces the character's maximum energy. When exhaustion occurs, the caster loses 10 maximum energy. The amount of maximum energy lost is shown at the right end of the energy bar (in its default position) as grayed out. Maximum energy is recovered at a rate of 1 point of energy every 3 seconds.
So in other words, the Exhaustion would wear off in 30 Seconds. Meaning its recharge time without stacking exhaustion is 15 seconds less than its original cast time. Also the exhaustion means the skill really costs you 20 energy, which is 5 less than it used to be. With an energy management skill like Boon of Creation and good judgement when casting, the exhaustion is hardly a burden, even on a character with an average of 40 energy. Granted the Dissonance spirit isnt destroyed, there would only be an 13 second window without the spirt being up.
Overall, this balance means you have to pick your build more wisely. If the game was mean to be a piece a cake, it wouldnt be fun.
We will take Dissonance as an example. This is what it used to be:
-25 Energy Cost
-5 Second Cast time
-45 Second Recharge
Now we will look at its current stats:
-10 energy Cost
-5 Second Cast Time
-20 Second recharge
-Exhaustion
Here is a quote from wiki about exhaustion.
Exhaustion reduces the character's maximum energy. When exhaustion occurs, the caster loses 10 maximum energy. The amount of maximum energy lost is shown at the right end of the energy bar (in its default position) as grayed out. Maximum energy is recovered at a rate of 1 point of energy every 3 seconds.
So in other words, the Exhaustion would wear off in 30 Seconds. Meaning its recharge time without stacking exhaustion is 15 seconds less than its original cast time. Also the exhaustion means the skill really costs you 20 energy, which is 5 less than it used to be. With an energy management skill like Boon of Creation and good judgement when casting, the exhaustion is hardly a burden, even on a character with an average of 40 energy. Granted the Dissonance spirit isnt destroyed, there would only be an 13 second window without the spirt being up.
Overall, this balance means you have to pick your build more wisely. If the game was mean to be a piece a cake, it wouldnt be fun.
Dahnel
Made an entire class pointless, Gaynet strikes again.
Ok, in fairness lets add exhaustion to every useful monk skill too, i mean, they have both offense and defense in a single character, AND OMG EVERY BUILD SINCE GW STARTED HAS USED MONKS...NERF!!!111!!1!!.
/sarcasm
Hire some staff that are'nt retarded imo.
Ok, in fairness lets add exhaustion to every useful monk skill too, i mean, they have both offense and defense in a single character, AND OMG EVERY BUILD SINCE GW STARTED HAS USED MONKS...NERF!!!111!!1!!.
/sarcasm
Hire some staff that are'nt retarded imo.
Abbess
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Originally Posted by Dahnel
Made an entire class pointless, Gaynet strikes again.
Ok, in fairness lets add exhaustion to every useful monk skill too, i mean, they have both offense and defense in a single character, AND OMG EVERY BUILD SINCE GW STARTED HAS USED MONKS...NERF!!!111!!1!!. /sarcasm Hire some staff that are'nt retarded imo. |
Kashrlyyk
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Originally Posted by Dahnel
Made an entire class pointless, Gaynet strikes again.
Ok, in fairness lets add exhaustion to every useful monk skill too, i mean, they have both offense and defense in a single character, AND OMG EVERY BUILD SINCE GW STARTED HAS USED MONKS...NERF!!!111!!1!!. /sarcasm Hire some staff that are'nt retarded imo. |
LumpOfCole
Fortunately for us, this is a test change and not a permanent one. I think (hope?) Anet is seeing the problem exhaust, in its current implementation, is causing Rits globally and try to compensate somehow.
GloryFox
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posted by Dahnel Ok, in fairness lets add exhaustion to every useful monk skill too, |
My Monk recommendation change list
Divine changes
Blessed Signet - this should make all bonders happy, we can reduce the recharge time to 5 seconds In this way you get your energy faster added exhaustion.
Healing prayers changes
Word of Healing - This will reduce spike healing and allow for faster games. We added a reduced casting time of 1/4th second for a faster response added exhaustion.
Vigerous Spirit - Spamming this skill on multiple allies allows for too much passive healing added exhaustion.
Mending - Because wonderlust makes as much sense! added exhaustion.
Heal Party - we reduced the cost to 5 and recharge time to 1 second. You will have to watch that energy of course but hey faster recharge! added exhaustion.
Dwaynas kiss - See word of Healing added exhaustion.
Protection changes
Ageis - This encourage Ageis chains and we reduced the cost to 5 and the recharge time to 10 added exhaustion.
Protective Spirit - We thought this skill was used far to much in spike prevention and caused matches to last too long added exhaustion, we also wanted to encourage its use so we reduced the cost to 5.
Reversal of Fortune - We wanted to diversify skills and we thought this skill was being used far too much. There are other good Protection skills you should use them BTW we added exhaustion.
COME NOW PEOPLE DON"T YOU SEE THIS IS INSANITY!? IT STARTS WITH THE RIT AND ITS OPEN SEASON ON ALL OTHER CLASS OPTIONS... KEEP EXHAUSTION ONLY WITH THE CLASS THAT WAS DESIGNED TO HANDLE IT.
THE ELEMENTALIST!
Adding exhaustion to a class with 45 - 55 energy on average is bad for the game period. There has to be a better solution. I agree Rit spike was harsh but not invincible.
Exhaustion is NOT the solution!
Yanman.be
IMO nerfs make the game more exciting because it's something new you have to learn etc.
We all know the feeling when we play a game for the first time ( usually big rpg's have this feeling ) where you want to explore, find out, and killl as many things as possible, leveling up to get this and do that..you know...well, a good skill update gives me a bit of that feeling. Caress that feeling. It's better than whining on the forum.
We all know the feeling when we play a game for the first time ( usually big rpg's have this feeling ) where you want to explore, find out, and killl as many things as possible, leveling up to get this and do that..you know...well, a good skill update gives me a bit of that feeling. Caress that feeling. It's better than whining on the forum.
Omniclasm
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Originally Posted by Yanman.be
IMO nerfs make the game more exciting because it's something new you have to learn etc.
We all know the feeling when we play a game for the first time ( usually big rpg's have this feeling ) where you want to explore, find out, and killl as many things as possible, leveling up to get this and do that..you know...well, a good skill update gives me a bit of that feeling. Caress that feeling. It's better than whining on the forum. |
Abbess
I still say this nerf can be a buff if you play your cards right. The exhaustion from these skills work well with the NA Elementist Elite Second Wind. Ive been using it in RA without any trouble.
Diddy bow
What i mean is channeling is like air in the sence it can spike very well therfor exaustion balences it out. Factoring in energy storage wont work because thats why eles have it, to deal with exaustion. All classes have their primary to augument their own skills. I dont see how monk healing makes sence with exaustion, you cant spike or camp with that :S.
As for the spirits the reasons above explained why they are better than minions or traps, traps are interuptable, are only good once and need to be directly stepped on. minions need a corpse and spirits have exaustion.
As for the spirits the reasons above explained why they are better than minions or traps, traps are interuptable, are only good once and need to be directly stepped on. minions need a corpse and spirits have exaustion.
englitdaudelin
Well, I'm not a fan of this.
I've been playing my rit for quite a while now and I'll say...this stings a little.
It actually doesn't change much in my usual builds except Dissonance in some places, and Ancestor's Rage when I'm with my heroes (But a bad skill bar on my part equals 20 fewer points of energy to play with...).
I think a lot of recent Rit Buffs have aimed at the weapon spells and the "other player" buffs we provide (if other player is under effect of a weapon spell.... or if other player is holding an item....). So this is another way of gently nudging rits toward some underused skills.
It does, however, significantly (not awfully, or not severely, but noticeably) limit some of the rit's channeling offense.
The solution has been mentioned above--smarter e-management. Limits on the elite are obvious... time for attuned, or rit lord, or even Vorizun. Or an ele secondary and that glyph that prevents exhaustion.
I'll acknowledge that AR, especially, was a gift to rits--spammably cheap and fast and oodles of damage. So time to find a new skill to spam.
But it still stings. And if it remains permanent, I think rits will be at a notable (again, not awful, not terrible, just notable) disadvantage in PvP and PvE hard mode. Part of the (insert cookie-cutter complaint here) quasi -requirement for a rit will be /e secondary, or e-management elite, or a partner BiP / BR necro whose job it will be to buff the rit's energy. And that's no fun.
Hooray for balance, but boooooo for exhaustion on a class that wasn't build to handle it.
I've been playing my rit for quite a while now and I'll say...this stings a little.
It actually doesn't change much in my usual builds except Dissonance in some places, and Ancestor's Rage when I'm with my heroes (But a bad skill bar on my part equals 20 fewer points of energy to play with...).
I think a lot of recent Rit Buffs have aimed at the weapon spells and the "other player" buffs we provide (if other player is under effect of a weapon spell.... or if other player is holding an item....). So this is another way of gently nudging rits toward some underused skills.
It does, however, significantly (not awfully, or not severely, but noticeably) limit some of the rit's channeling offense.
The solution has been mentioned above--smarter e-management. Limits on the elite are obvious... time for attuned, or rit lord, or even Vorizun. Or an ele secondary and that glyph that prevents exhaustion.
I'll acknowledge that AR, especially, was a gift to rits--spammably cheap and fast and oodles of damage. So time to find a new skill to spam.
But it still stings. And if it remains permanent, I think rits will be at a notable (again, not awful, not terrible, just notable) disadvantage in PvP and PvE hard mode. Part of the (insert cookie-cutter complaint here) quasi -requirement for a rit will be /e secondary, or e-management elite, or a partner BiP / BR necro whose job it will be to buff the rit's energy. And that's no fun.
Hooray for balance, but boooooo for exhaustion on a class that wasn't build to handle it.
DarkGanni
Totally makes no sense to me why should the pve community suffer cause of this. PvP and PvE should have different skill balances.
Aera
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Originally Posted by Pericles
Hehe, I agree
As far all those arrogant pvp-jerks out there: maybe you can think about pve too as more than 50% of the GW community plays pve and NOT pvp, i'm fully aware of the irritating rit-spike teams and that they had to be stopped but now the whole ritualist line is nerfed. Spiritspamming is now made impossible (pretty strange as this was actually the main purpose for the rit). |
Miral
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Originally Posted by Abbess
I still say this nerf can be a buff if you play your cards right. The exhaustion from these skills work well with the NA Elementist Elite Second Wind. Ive been using it in RA without any trouble.
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Miral
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Originally Posted by Aera
Tell me, do you even have FUN pressing a button, waiting 5 seconds and see a spirit throw some balls at monsters? The spirits do all the work, how is that fun?
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Ensign
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Originally Posted by Miral
A good spiritspammer will be doing far more than casting a spirit and waiting for it to die.
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Dahnel
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Originally Posted by Abbess
Question... Do you make a fool out of yourself on a regular basis? Or was just this a one time slip up? Because that is the noobiest thing i have ever heard.
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Malice Black
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Praytell, what else is the guy with 6 spirits and some emanagement on his bar doing?
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kvndoom
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Praytell, what else is the guy with 6 spirits and some emanagement on his bar doing?
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VitisVinifera
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Originally Posted by DarkGanni
Totally makes no sense to me why should the pve community suffer cause of this. PvP and PvE should have different skill balances.
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Anet, by trying to treat pve and pvp exactly the same, are driving a wedge between them. See the flaming and counter flaming in this thread. I feel bad for everyone being flamed on both sides of the aisle, because this isn't the community's fault. It's Izzy's and Anet's fault for not realizing some very basic aspects of this game they made......ie, that pve and pvp are different games, with different builds, dynamics, and metas.
Gaile, how about you put THAT on the next meeting agenda?
Miral
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Praytell, what else is the guy with 6 spirits and some emanagement on his bar doing?
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Chicken Ftw
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Originally Posted by Miral
again, thats an RA spiritspammer. better ones will have 3 or 4 spirits and some damage dealing or spirit support.
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englitdaudelin
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Originally Posted by VitisVinifera
I totally agree with this. There are very valid arguments (put forth in this thread) why Ritspike needed nerfing (on the pvp side) and simultaneously why there was no business this nerf being done (on the pve side).
Anet, by trying to treat pve and pvp exactly the same, are driving a wedge between them. See the flaming and counter flaming in this thread. I feel bad for everyone being flamed on both sides of the aisle, because this isn't the community's fault. It's Izzy's and Anet's fault for not realizing some very basic aspects of this game they made......ie, that pve and pvp are different games, with different builds, dynamics, and metas. Gaile, how about you put THAT on the next meeting agenda? |
The PvE-only skills were an attempt, I think, to create skills that would be "overpowered" in PvP, but would fit PvE, especially Hard Mode.
Unfortunately, I think that's the closest we'll see the game designers and balancers doing "separate" balances for PvE and PvP...
And really, I would RATHER have consistent skill balances--I want to know what my skill will do in a given situation, so I test it out somewhere, like PvE, and then try again in PvP...it would screw with OUR OWN games MORE if there were separate balances. Consistency, even a foolish one, is preferable to unpredictable results of our own skills.
on another note, I was thinking (unfortunate, I know)...that the caster classes each deserve their "spike" abilities...ele has it, necro has it, Mesmer does too...so why is the rit spike being most affected? Because of the RELATIVE trade off that stings....
Ele: two exhaustion spells in an energy pool of 80+ = -20 energy, and a loss of 25% of max energy.
Rit: two exhaustion spells in an energy pool of 55 (no item spells here), and -20 energy is 36% decrease...more than 1/3 of our pool.
So I could handle exhaustion during a spike, if the RELATIVE trade-off (compared to the Ele, the only other class that suffers exhaustion) were smaller.
/end rambling post.
GloryFox
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posted by Ensign Praytell, what else is the guy with 6 spirits and some emanagement on his bar doing? |
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posted by VitisVinifera Anet, by trying to treat pve and pvp exactly the same, are driving a wedge between them. See the flaming and counter flaming in this thread. I feel bad for everyone being flamed on both sides of the aisle, because this isn't the community's fault. It's Izzy's and Anet's fault for not realizing some very basic aspects of this game they made......ie, that pve and pvp are different games, with different builds, dynamics, and metas. |
This bickering is pointless so I am arguing a game mechanic that I truly fear for the sake of both sides. Exhaustion needs to stay with the only class in the game that was designed to handle it. Point is once you open up Exhaustion to other classes outside of the Elementalist your "insert favorite class here" is open season for the next exhaustion nerf bat.
So now that Rit Spike is dead by way of exhaustion will fast casting Mesmers be next for Hexway exhaustion nerfs as well? Can the people on this forum make the same arguments once the Mesmer, Necromancer, or Monk gains exhaustion?
I also hated the Rit Spike but hey I hate Hexway even more. It won't be long until both Mesmers and Necro's follow suit. So let's stop this madness before it begins. There was a reason why exhaustion was always kept for Ele skills. Lets be reasonable and follow that wisdom. Find a better way for dealing with deadly builds and not through the serious castration exhaustion gives to a non Ele class.
Miral
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Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw
Name a "good" spirit spam build's skills, I'm truly curious to know what one looks like now.
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[skill]Frenzy[/skill][skill]Healing Signet[/skill][skill]Mending[/skill][skill]Life Attunement[/skill][skill]"For Great Justice!"[/skill][skill]Reversal Of Fortune[/skill][skill]Healing Breeze[/skill][skill]Unyielding Aura[/skill]
MithranArkanere
1. Reduce skill spamming.
2. Reduce the amount of skills that cause exhaustion at the same time in Ritualists' skill bars. People usually never have more than one or two of them.
3. Force to use Glyph of Energy, thus buy Prophecies even if you only play Ritualists.
2. Reduce the amount of skills that cause exhaustion at the same time in Ritualists' skill bars. People usually never have more than one or two of them.
3. Force to use Glyph of Energy, thus buy Prophecies even if you only play Ritualists.
CHunterX
Elementalist is the only class with spells to counter exhaustion, why add exhaustion to a class that has no skills to counter it? If Ritualists had spells to counter exhaustion in the first place, this would be much less of a problem now. Obviously the class wasn't designed to deal with it when it was created, its too late to successfully add the element now.
Crap like this is why I only play "Popular Classes" (Warrior, Monk, Elementalist)
Crap like this is why I only play "Popular Classes" (Warrior, Monk, Elementalist)
Miral
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
1. Reduce skill spamming.
2. Reduce the amount of skills that cause exhaustion at the same time in Ritualists' skill bars. People usually never have more than one or two of them. 3. Force to use Glyph of Energy, thus buy Prophecies even if you only play Ritualists. |
Baroness Scarlett
The difference is that the air magic from the eles have 25% of armor penetration and the air magic from rits doesn't so why suffer the same exhaustion than eles?
Vermilion
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Originally Posted by Miral
so it can be nerfed? nah, I think I'll keep any decent builds I find to myself from now on. here's one you can get nerfed though...
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-.-
Evilsod
The point of causing exhaustion to a Ritualist is because Izzy is a complete and utter moron who has run out of ideas as to how to solve this problem. Ancestors Rage and Wielders Strike are now unusable, because they sure as hell aren't gonna waste a slot on my bar while they cause exhaustion. You can only use 1, or at the limit, 2 of the spirits that cause exhaustion before you run into major trouble. Your max energy sucks as it is thanks to Item spells removing your weapon. The only answer is Izzy has no idea what he's doing anymore, this was a completely desperate act to nerf Ritspike, instead he just practically killed Rits.
kooomar
Man, this thread should be shut down, its half and half. Theres the people crying because the game "revolves" around PvP, and they are mad cause they can't do 6 spirits in PvE, and won't take the incentive to learn how to use e-management. And there is the other half that I personally agree with, that says its an interesting change, and GOD FORBID the people that play spirit spammers might have to change their bar a bit?
For the last comment, has any rit heard of glyph of energy? It just got a buff Im pretty sure, in fact, wait, its 5 energy and 10 second recharge, MEANING, you could put up glyph, the a spirit, wait for 3 seconds, glyph, then a spirit, wait 3 MORE seconds, glyph ancestors rage (if you wanted to do ancestor's rage still). The point is, ADAPT, youre build wont always be amazing. For example, GvG/HA monks for the longest time ALL had Glyph of lesser/Aegis, then that got nerfed, did everyone cry and say "Give me my 15 energy for free back!!!! you RUINED the game, RAWR!!!!!!!!!!!!" No. They changed e-management.
I suggest to all you "1337" spirit spammers (its leetspeak because its obviously very hard to spirit spam, god forbid sticky-keys activates from hitting the same button so many times) to maybe think outside of the box, and try a new build with some different skills in it.
For the last comment, has any rit heard of glyph of energy? It just got a buff Im pretty sure, in fact, wait, its 5 energy and 10 second recharge, MEANING, you could put up glyph, the a spirit, wait for 3 seconds, glyph, then a spirit, wait 3 MORE seconds, glyph ancestors rage (if you wanted to do ancestor's rage still). The point is, ADAPT, youre build wont always be amazing. For example, GvG/HA monks for the longest time ALL had Glyph of lesser/Aegis, then that got nerfed, did everyone cry and say "Give me my 15 energy for free back!!!! you RUINED the game, RAWR!!!!!!!!!!!!" No. They changed e-management.
I suggest to all you "1337" spirit spammers (its leetspeak because its obviously very hard to spirit spam, god forbid sticky-keys activates from hitting the same button so many times) to maybe think outside of the box, and try a new build with some different skills in it.