I have 2 Native Elonians, my Paragon and my Dervish. The rest of my account has all Non-elonians.
It seems to me, that a player with Non-elonian characters and owns both Nightfall and GW:EN would have in their best option to choose Acolyte Jin vs Acolyte Sousuke because having GW:EN already gives you an Elementalist Hero early on, which would make choosing Sousuke redundant.
Vekk invalidates Sousuke. Jin is clearly superior.
lyra_song
tenorplayer
And the rit hero in GW:EN seems to make going to the trouble of getting Razah obsolete, too. But only for those who are only interested in having *one* rit hero.
Some will still use their Sousuke anyway, I sometimes roll with both of them when I'm playing my elementalist, just to watch the masses of nukes drop.
ArenaNet is simply trying to give the people that don't have Nightfall a passable selection of heroes, or at least that's how it seems to me.
Some will still use their Sousuke anyway, I sometimes roll with both of them when I'm playing my elementalist, just to watch the masses of nukes drop.
ArenaNet is simply trying to give the people that don't have Nightfall a passable selection of heroes, or at least that's how it seems to me.
Tijger
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by lyra_song
I have 2 Native Elonians, my Paragon and my Dervish. The rest of my account has all Non-elonians.
It seems to me, that a player with Non-elonian characters and owns both Nightfall and GW:EN would have in their best option to choose Acolyte Jin vs Acolyte Sousuke because having GW:EN already gives you an Elementalist Hero early on, which would make choosing Sousuke redundant. |
To obtain Zhed you have to do a bit more of Nightfall then to get Sousuke, also some people might want 3 ele's available to them.
SeraCombi
set one as a sandstorm/eruption/ward earth ele
set another as a dual attuned ms/rodgorts nuker
set the third as a water snare/maelstrom water ele
or two of them as SF nukers (for raw destructive power), and an mm hero, and take with your ranger primary and let the pawning commence
guess my point is you should keep your eles and max out their gear for different elemental skills
my two cents
set another as a dual attuned ms/rodgorts nuker
set the third as a water snare/maelstrom water ele
or two of them as SF nukers (for raw destructive power), and an mm hero, and take with your ranger primary and let the pawning commence
guess my point is you should keep your eles and max out their gear for different elemental skills
my two cents
R!ghteous Ind!gnation
Its not redundant to have more than 1 hero of each type... sousuke isn't obsolete... this thread is.
bhavv
Since Im an elly too, I have sosuke set up as another fire elly, Zhed as an invoke air elly, and I made Vekk a Sandstorm warder, pretty much herta without stone daggers and aura of res (Ebon hawk/stoning/magnetic surge instead 
)
)
Yanman.be
My 2 cents:
You have Factions+EotN.
You get paragon and dervish hero in EotN. GG using only 10 paragon skills on them :/.
You have Factions+EotN.
You get paragon and dervish hero in EotN. GG using only 10 paragon skills on them :/.
ValaOfTheFens
This thread is ridiculous.
No hero invalidates another. Alot of people beat NF before now and already have doubles of most professions. So wouldn't that make the GWEN heroes partially redundant? *lol* No.
Please use logic next time. kthxbai
No hero invalidates another. Alot of people beat NF before now and already have doubles of most professions. So wouldn't that make the GWEN heroes partially redundant? *lol* No.
Please use logic next time. kthxbai
lyra_song
Missed the point much? -.-
ValaOfTheFens: Where would the point of choosing Jin or Sousuke matter to a player who already beat the Nightfall? NOWHERE. Its not applicable since thats not the situation being presented.
Assuming you have all campaigns:
Non-Elonian Outline ->
Nightfall:
Warrior, Dervish, 2 Monks
Then Ranger or Ele
Assassin and Necromancer
GW:EN:
Monk and Ele
The only quest with any CHOICE in such an early area (without beating ANY MISSIONS) is Zaishen Elite. That choice being Ranger Jin or Ele Sousuke.
Now. with addition of GW:EN, you can gain an Ele through Vekk very very easily.
Gaining the ele Vekk removes the NEED to choose the Elementalist Sousuke in the quest unless you are in dire need of 2 eles in your party (if the case you already are a ranger, then that would invalidate the need for a second ranger).
So, a Non-elonian character would be in their best interest to maximize their choice of heroes by choosing Jin and not Sousuke in such an early stage of Nightfall and GW:EN.
Get it?
ValaOfTheFens: Where would the point of choosing Jin or Sousuke matter to a player who already beat the Nightfall? NOWHERE. Its not applicable since thats not the situation being presented.
Assuming you have all campaigns:
Non-Elonian Outline ->
Nightfall:
Warrior, Dervish, 2 Monks
Then Ranger or Ele
Assassin and Necromancer
GW:EN:
Monk and Ele
The only quest with any CHOICE in such an early area (without beating ANY MISSIONS) is Zaishen Elite. That choice being Ranger Jin or Ele Sousuke.
Now. with addition of GW:EN, you can gain an Ele through Vekk very very easily.
Gaining the ele Vekk removes the NEED to choose the Elementalist Sousuke in the quest unless you are in dire need of 2 eles in your party (if the case you already are a ranger, then that would invalidate the need for a second ranger).
So, a Non-elonian character would be in their best interest to maximize their choice of heroes by choosing Jin and not Sousuke in such an early stage of Nightfall and GW:EN.
Get it?
Bryant Again
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by lyra_song
I have 2 Native Elonians, my Paragon and my Dervish. The rest of my account has all Non-elonians.
It seems to me, that a player with Non-elonian characters and owns both Nightfall and GW:EN would have in their best option to choose Acolyte Jin vs Acolyte Sousuke because having GW:EN already gives you an Elementalist Hero early on, which would make choosing Sousuke redundant. |
Cool.
Like, is this bad?
fenix
Why would you WANT Jin over Sousuke? A hero Ele is indefinitely more useful than a hero Ranger. And 2 is always better than one.
Can this be closed now?
Can this be closed now?
-Makai-
At the same time, we still don't know if Pyre Fierceshot will be a "branch" hero or not, so picking Jin over Sousuke still might not be the best idea.
EternalTempest
Interesting topic, I've been doing research on Hero's today actually.
I've noticed that some hero's do things better then others.
Example - Dunkoro vs Tahlkora
Dunkoro pawns Tahlkora in healing where Thalkora pawns Dunkoro in protection.
When you look at there "initial" skill builds, Dunkoro has 4 healing, and 2 unlinked skills where Tahlkora has 4 protect, and 2 unlinked.
This tells me there initial skill builds shows the where there AI tends to be good at.
Lets look at the 3 ele hero's
Acolyte Sousuke default build is 4 fire, 1 engery, 1 earth, 1 unlinked
Zhed Shadowhoof default build is 2 water, 2 earth, 1 engery, 1 unlinked
Vekk - default build is 4 air, 1 water, 1 engery, 1 unlinked
Looking at that, I think all can do fire, but when it comes to air builds, I think Vekk could handle air better then Sousuke.
I've noticed that some hero's do things better then others.
Example - Dunkoro vs Tahlkora
Dunkoro pawns Tahlkora in healing where Thalkora pawns Dunkoro in protection.
When you look at there "initial" skill builds, Dunkoro has 4 healing, and 2 unlinked skills where Tahlkora has 4 protect, and 2 unlinked.
This tells me there initial skill builds shows the where there AI tends to be good at.
Lets look at the 3 ele hero's
Acolyte Sousuke default build is 4 fire, 1 engery, 1 earth, 1 unlinked
Zhed Shadowhoof default build is 2 water, 2 earth, 1 engery, 1 unlinked
Vekk - default build is 4 air, 1 water, 1 engery, 1 unlinked
Looking at that, I think all can do fire, but when it comes to air builds, I think Vekk could handle air better then Sousuke.
lyra_song
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by fenix
Why would you WANT Jin over Sousuke? A hero Ele is indefinitely more useful than a hero Ranger. And 2 is always better than one.
Can this be closed now? |
Your own personal preferences through, builds of choice or class preference, may cause you to choose Sousuke and double up early on in elementalists, but preference is hardly logical.
The only real logical counterpoint would be a player's own pool of skills, for example a player with a lot of ele skills unlocked and few ranger skills should NOT choose Jin because it would be the less functional choice in choice of builds and skills. Such an example is more universally applicable and transcends "preferences".
Harmless
At the end of nightfall you can get all heroes anyhow.
What I like about it is that I don't have to bother with switching runes and weapons on as many heroes now. Drove me crazy with the eles, would set one up as earth then realize I forgot to swap weapons.
I would be happy with having enough of each kind to specialize the necros, warriors, ritualists, and mesmers too. One more of each of those should do it.
What I like about it is that I don't have to bother with switching runes and weapons on as many heroes now. Drove me crazy with the eles, would set one up as earth then realize I forgot to swap weapons.
I would be happy with having enough of each kind to specialize the necros, warriors, ritualists, and mesmers too. One more of each of those should do it.
ValaOfTheFens
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by lyra_song
Missed the point much? -.-
ValaOfTheFens: Where would the point of choosing Jin or Sousuke matter to a player who already beat the Nightfall? NOWHERE. Its not applicable since thats not the situation being presented. Assuming you have all campaigns: Non-Elonian Outline -> Nightfall: Warrior, Dervish, 2 Monks Then Ranger or Ele Assassin and Necromancer GW:EN: Monk and Ele The only quest with any CHOICE in such an early area (without beating ANY MISSIONS) is Zaishen Elite. That choice being Ranger Jin or Ele Sousuke. Now. with addition of GW:EN, you can gain an Ele through Vekk very very easily. Gaining the ele Vekk removes the NEED to choose the Elementalist Sousuke in the quest unless you are in dire need of 2 eles in your party (if the case you already are a ranger, then that would invalidate the need for a second ranger). So, a Non-elonian character would be in their best interest to maximize their choice of heroes by choosing Jin and not Sousuke in such an early stage of Nightfall and GW:EN. Get it? |
The Elonian heroes are somewhat more attractive to me than the GWEN heroes because the quests to get them are token efforts at best and only take about 5 mins. The whole Norn tournament thing didn't interest me in the slightest as I don't really care for PvP(or PvNPC), not even with the prospect of gaining new heroes. I'm more of a puzzle sort of person. 
prism2525
Zhed, Vekk, Sousuke and YOU all SF nukers = one hell of a damage output.
Rhys
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EternalTempest
Interesting topic, I've been doing research on Hero's today actually.
I've noticed that some hero's do things better then others. Example - Dunkoro vs Tahlkora Dunkoro pawns Tahlkora in healing where Thalkora pawns Dunkoro in protection. When you look at there "initial" skill builds, Dunkoro has 4 healing, and 2 unlinked skills where Tahlkora has 4 protect, and 2 unlinked. This tells me there initial skill builds shows the where there AI tends to be good at. |
Faer
Searing Flames is bad.
Invoke Lightning + Energy Blast spike, go!
Invoke Lightning + Energy Blast spike, go!
zwei2stein
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EternalTempest
Interesting topic, I've been doing research on Hero's today actually.
I've noticed that some hero's do things better then others. Example - Dunkoro vs Tahlkora Dunkoro pawns Tahlkora in healing where Thalkora pawns Dunkoro in protection. When you look at there "initial" skill builds, Dunkoro has 4 healing, and 2 unlinked skills where Tahlkora has 4 protect, and 2 unlinked. This tells me there initial skill builds shows the where there AI tends to be good at. Lets look at the 3 ele hero's Acolyte Sousuke default build is 4 fire, 1 engery, 1 earth, 1 unlinked Zhed Shadowhoof default build is 2 water, 2 earth, 1 engery, 1 unlinked Vekk - default build is 4 air, 1 water, 1 engery, 1 unlinked Looking at that, I think all can do fire, but when it comes to air builds, I think Vekk could handle air better then Sousuke. |
I would be very suprised if anet gave each hero different ai.
In the end, Talhora and Dunkoro given same build work equally fine for me.
Zhed and Sousuke always performend same with identical E/Me build (that they run in pair, so you can literally see them both following exactly same pattern). If you add Norgu as third with identical build only with Me/E and points in fascast isntead of storage, yet again he works skills like other two.
Next thing you get are peaple claiming that they can teach heroes to use builds correctly by manually activating skills. Like teaching Olias to spam BoTM.
Which is quite funny, because Xandra given build identical to what i use on Razah did ... exactly same things like him.
Most of 'Hero Talk' is anecdotal experience, and as such has not much point.
Valid research would possibly mean a lot of time spent with dummies on isle of nameless with couple of builds and carefull observation of timing when using skills.
Bryant Again
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rhys
Is this true? I've always assumed AI is the same for all the heroes and dependant on the skill bar you give them.
|
With Dunk and Talk, sometimes I get bored with one or the other, so I'll have them set up as the same build and switch them out. I seem to do fine, but I haven't paid much attention.
EternalTempest
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rhys
Is this true? I've always assumed AI is the same for all the heroes and dependant on the skill bar you give them.
|
Same build, same stats, Olias was a much better MM then Masters was.
On the flip side, Masters was a better SS then Oias.
I'm not sure if it applies to all the hero's but from what I've seen when you have duplicate jobs, the AI's between the two seem to be different.
I do think builds that are designed to spam (take fire, engery skill, spam fire attacks) can work well but when it comes to other skills where order or target is more important there can be some difference.
Taki
This is a poorly presented and weak argument Lyra. You can do better than this
zwei2stein
Anyway, Why the hell would be Jin superior?
It just matter of choice. Two eles or ele and ranger.
Only possiblity when Jinn would be CLEARLY superior would be if you were unable to run two ele heroes.
Just a choice.
It just matter of choice. Two eles or ele and ranger.
Only possiblity when Jinn would be CLEARLY superior would be if you were unable to run two ele heroes.
Just a choice.
lyra_song
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens
No. Because most of people who will play GWEN have already made their choices in NF and have had to live(and die) by them.
|
Quote:
| Those who haven't should choose which hero based on their needs. |
My argument that Jin is the one to choose is because having Vekk as a mandatory hero removes the need to choose an elementalist early on.
You may WANT to choose Sousuke over Jin, but Ive yet to see anyone bring up any clear examples as to why it is other than personal choice.
Fenix comes close to an argument saying that Elementalists are superior, but since he doesnt cite any sort of examples and just rambles/trolls on, it doesnt count.
Somebody counter me..im bored at work.
Vermilion Okeanos
Jin win, just because I don't like male human ele.
Now if I can only get jin's sunspear armor...
Now if I can only get jin's sunspear armor...
MithranArkanere
Who cares? I get all 25 with all 10 characters...
Wow! 250 heroes!
I still like more the TV series... I miss Hiro Nakamura...
Wow! 250 heroes!
I still like more the TV series... I miss Hiro Nakamura...
fenix
I could argue with stats and number and such, but I'm falling asleep...and it's 1:30am. If this thread isn't closed to too huge for me to bother with in the morning, I'll post some stuff. Mostly stuff concerning DPS and such. But I'm used to playing with a guy who uses a Ranger himself, so we just run 4 Ele heroes, 2 Monk heroes, myself as War, and him as Ranger. Either 4x Searing Flames or 4x Savannah, depending on the location. If there are lots of casters, he does Broadhead, if not, he does just damage. I do Dslash with some team support, but usually we run this general build (which underpins most of my argument, since Ranger heroes cannot run bars like this). We run 2 copies of this, but the monks differ.
E/Mo: Searing, Glowing, GoLE, Mark of Rodgort, Heal Party, XXXX, Fire Attune, Res Chant (Cure Hex was the XXXX last weekend, and will be when they unlock it again. 76 heal + hex removed? yes please)
E/Mo: Searing, Glowing, GoLE, Glyph Sac, Meteor Shower, Heal Party/Aegis, Fire Attune, Res Sig
Mo/E: Shield of Deflection, Gift of Health, Dismiss Condition, Cure Hex, Protective Spirit, Reversal of Fortune, Shield of Absorbtion, GoLE
HEAPS of support in the form of 2x Heal Party (or 2x Aegis depending on the zone), we will soon use 2x Cure Hex which completely removes hex problems, and we have 1x Hard Res, 1x Met Shower, and of course SF + Mark Rodgort. Huge DPS, excellent defense. Each. I usually bring Save Yourselves! and There's Nothing To Fear! although as of late I haven't needed either, so I just bring damage...
So you see, one main thing is that Jin cannot use a support bar, as the energy and such is not good for it. Which is why a 2nd ele is superior. And if I'm playing alone, I use 3 Eles, with hench monks, as the defense I can get out of the 3 eles (2x HP 1x Aegis, visa versa) is more than enough to make up for shoddy Henchman bars.
E/Mo: Searing, Glowing, GoLE, Mark of Rodgort, Heal Party, XXXX, Fire Attune, Res Chant (Cure Hex was the XXXX last weekend, and will be when they unlock it again. 76 heal + hex removed? yes please)
E/Mo: Searing, Glowing, GoLE, Glyph Sac, Meteor Shower, Heal Party/Aegis, Fire Attune, Res Sig
Mo/E: Shield of Deflection, Gift of Health, Dismiss Condition, Cure Hex, Protective Spirit, Reversal of Fortune, Shield of Absorbtion, GoLE
HEAPS of support in the form of 2x Heal Party (or 2x Aegis depending on the zone), we will soon use 2x Cure Hex which completely removes hex problems, and we have 1x Hard Res, 1x Met Shower, and of course SF + Mark Rodgort. Huge DPS, excellent defense. Each. I usually bring Save Yourselves! and There's Nothing To Fear! although as of late I haven't needed either, so I just bring damage...
So you see, one main thing is that Jin cannot use a support bar, as the energy and such is not good for it. Which is why a 2nd ele is superior. And if I'm playing alone, I use 3 Eles, with hench monks, as the defense I can get out of the 3 eles (2x HP 1x Aegis, visa versa) is more than enough to make up for shoddy Henchman bars.
Red Sonya
The power of the elementalist heroes cometh. I can't wait to get all 3 heroes setup after GWEN launches. Sousuck, Zhed and Vekk and myself playing either W/E (I have built the ultimate Fire Warrior) or E/M omg what a storm of fire to rain down upon my victums. It is kind of sad though that my rangers and warriors and mesmers and rit(s) and paragons and dervishers and most especially the weakly puny assassins will never get to play within my groups except maybe when I am bored and want to watch us get slaughtered. It's already hard to breakup my wonderful monk and mm/ss necro and SF ele I have created. But, I will occassionally switch out and try two necros or two ele's just for a simple change without losing any damage power. They keep nerfing my SF ele's though and I'm getting kinda tired of that.
Do you guys realize the power of an SF Ele and a Discord Necro together? Look at the cost of Discord. I built my Necro up as Death/Curse 15/13 (using two major runes instead of a superior and minor) and use Insidious Parasite and/or Barbs for his hex. It is unbelieveable mass damage with these two working together I don't even have to fight. That silly elite golem will never do the damage Discord can do and the cost is unbelieveablely low. I nearly dropped my teeth when I saw that cost for such a wonderful high damage spell and full armor penetration. You should see what a W/N using discord and barbs can do in FA. hehe
Do you guys realize the power of an SF Ele and a Discord Necro together? Look at the cost of Discord. I built my Necro up as Death/Curse 15/13 (using two major runes instead of a superior and minor) and use Insidious Parasite and/or Barbs for his hex. It is unbelieveable mass damage with these two working together I don't even have to fight. That silly elite golem will never do the damage Discord can do and the cost is unbelieveablely low. I nearly dropped my teeth when I saw that cost for such a wonderful high damage spell and full armor penetration. You should see what a W/N using discord and barbs can do in FA. hehe
EternalTempest
Here is part of my research and Hero default Builds, and the number of skills in each attribute. Note - Spelling error's.
War
Koss - NF War - 2 Sword, 2 Tatics, 1 Str, 1 Unlinked
Goren - NF War - 2 hammer, 2 tatics, 1 str, 1 unlinked
Jora - EN War - 3 Sword, 2 Tatics, 1 Str, 1 Unlinked
Monk
Dunkoror - NF Monk - 4 Healing, 2 Unlinked
Tahlokora NF Monk - 4 Protect, 2 Unlninked
Ogdm Stone Healer - 3 Heal, 2 Unlniked
Dervish
Melonni - NF Derv - 2 Mysticism, 1 Scthe, 1 Earth, 1 Unlinked
Kahmu - EN Derv - 4 Myst, 2 Scthe, 1 Unlinked
Ranger
Acolyte Jin - NF Ranger- 2 Expertise, 2 Wilderness, 1 marks, 1 Unlinked
Madrid the Sly - NF Ranger - 3 Wildernes, 1 Marksman, 1 expert, 1 unlinked
Ele
Acolyte Souske - NF Ele - 4 Fire, 1 Engery, 1 Earth, 1 Unlinked
Zhed Shadowhoof - NF Ele - 2 water, 2 earth, 1 engery, 1 unlniked
Vekk - EN Ele - 4 Air, 1 Water, 1 Earth, 1 unlniked.
Necro
Olias - NF Necro - 2 Death, 3 Blood, 1 Unlinked
Master of Whipsers - NF Necro - 3 Cure, 2 Blood, 1 Unlinked
Assasin
Zenmai - NF Sin - 2 Dagger, 2 Shadow, 1 Critical, 1 unlinked
Messmer
Norgu - NF Messmer - 2 Illusion, 2 Inspire, 1 Dom, 1 unlinked
Para
General Morgan - NF Para - 2 Command, 2 Spear, 1 leader, 1 unlinked
Ritualist
Razah - NF Rit - 2 Chanel, 1 Spawn, 1 Restore, 1 Unlinked
Xander - EN Rit - 3 Chanel, 2 Rest, 1 Unlinked
This is just the default setups of what type of skills anet pre-loaded them with and may be the indication of what there better at.
War
Koss - NF War - 2 Sword, 2 Tatics, 1 Str, 1 Unlinked
Goren - NF War - 2 hammer, 2 tatics, 1 str, 1 unlinked
Jora - EN War - 3 Sword, 2 Tatics, 1 Str, 1 Unlinked
Monk
Dunkoror - NF Monk - 4 Healing, 2 Unlinked
Tahlokora NF Monk - 4 Protect, 2 Unlninked
Ogdm Stone Healer - 3 Heal, 2 Unlniked
Dervish
Melonni - NF Derv - 2 Mysticism, 1 Scthe, 1 Earth, 1 Unlinked
Kahmu - EN Derv - 4 Myst, 2 Scthe, 1 Unlinked
Ranger
Acolyte Jin - NF Ranger- 2 Expertise, 2 Wilderness, 1 marks, 1 Unlinked
Madrid the Sly - NF Ranger - 3 Wildernes, 1 Marksman, 1 expert, 1 unlinked
Ele
Acolyte Souske - NF Ele - 4 Fire, 1 Engery, 1 Earth, 1 Unlinked
Zhed Shadowhoof - NF Ele - 2 water, 2 earth, 1 engery, 1 unlniked
Vekk - EN Ele - 4 Air, 1 Water, 1 Earth, 1 unlniked.
Necro
Olias - NF Necro - 2 Death, 3 Blood, 1 Unlinked
Master of Whipsers - NF Necro - 3 Cure, 2 Blood, 1 Unlinked
Assasin
Zenmai - NF Sin - 2 Dagger, 2 Shadow, 1 Critical, 1 unlinked
Messmer
Norgu - NF Messmer - 2 Illusion, 2 Inspire, 1 Dom, 1 unlinked
Para
General Morgan - NF Para - 2 Command, 2 Spear, 1 leader, 1 unlinked
Ritualist
Razah - NF Rit - 2 Chanel, 1 Spawn, 1 Restore, 1 Unlinked
Xander - EN Rit - 3 Chanel, 2 Rest, 1 Unlinked
This is just the default setups of what type of skills anet pre-loaded them with and may be the indication of what there better at.
ValaOfTheFens
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by lyra_song
You may WANT to choose Sousuke over Jin, but Ive yet to see anyone bring up any clear examples as to why it is other than personal choice.
|
zwei2stein
lyra_song:
Besides, this thread gets very close to be troll. Bored at work? lol.
Anyways what about you producing argument why E+R is cleeeeearly superior ro E+E.
Whatever.
You miss one very important thing: There is no proof that anet actually preloaded heroes with skills that are there to imply what they are goot at.
They might have just as well just give them builds they found to be good starting point for customization and builds decent enough to work fine even if player does not edit them at all or does not have any unlocks.
Besides, this thread gets very close to be troll. Bored at work? lol.
Anyways what about you producing argument why E+R is cleeeeearly superior ro E+E.
Whatever.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EternalTempest
Here is part of my research and Hero default Builds, and the number of skills in each attribute. Note - Spelling error's.
... This is just the default setups of what type of skills anet pre-loaded them with and may be the indication of what there better at. |
They might have just as well just give them builds they found to be good starting point for customization and builds decent enough to work fine even if player does not edit them at all or does not have any unlocks.
EternalTempest
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zwei2stein
lyra_song:
Besides, this thread gets very close to be troll. Bored at work? lol. Anyways what about you producing argument why E+R is cleeeeearly superior ro E+E. Whatever. You miss one very important thing: There is no proof that anet actually preloaded heroes with skills that are there to imply what they are goot at. They might have just as well just give them builds they found to be good starting point for customization and builds decent enough to work fine even if player does not edit them at all or does not have any unlocks. |
Olias is better MM, Whsipers is better SS when you try the same builds w/ the hero's.
Vamis Threen
There are some builds heroes can use better than others, but this is due to the nature of the builds rather than them having different AI.
In NM I use a pretty standard SF on Zhed and Sousuke, I've watched them cast and they handle it the same way. Zhed will often move to the left or right or forward of Sousuke and the rest of the casters. In the same way Morgahn will move further forward closer than Sogolon (but this doesnt really count as they have different builds). So there may be minor differences in the AI's movement preferences but not in skill utilization.
I agree the OP's point is itself redundant. The existence of any third hero for a profession doesnt make the additional hero any more redundant than the existence of the second made the first. Most people will get all the heroes anyway, it's pretty easy if you beat the game. I seem to have got two heroes for free in that daft 1v1 game at the weekend. I don't want them, but it does add versitility.
In NM I use a pretty standard SF on Zhed and Sousuke, I've watched them cast and they handle it the same way. Zhed will often move to the left or right or forward of Sousuke and the rest of the casters. In the same way Morgahn will move further forward closer than Sogolon (but this doesnt really count as they have different builds). So there may be minor differences in the AI's movement preferences but not in skill utilization.
I agree the OP's point is itself redundant. The existence of any third hero for a profession doesnt make the additional hero any more redundant than the existence of the second made the first. Most people will get all the heroes anyway, it's pretty easy if you beat the game. I seem to have got two heroes for free in that daft 1v1 game at the weekend. I don't want them, but it does add versitility.
lyra_song
Trolling? I have a statement that is related to the game. Its not a sensitive topic. Its not insulting anyone or attempting to stir negative emotions.
At most im trying to incite some people here to come up with reasons to counter my statements. Which is fun. Thanks Fenix.
I need this cause it keeps my mind working properly. :P
The following is not personal preference:
Vekk is a mandatory Hero. Sousuke is not.
Both are elementalists. Both are easy to get (more or less).
If you do not choose Sousuke you get Jin.
The only other Ranger in Nightfall is Margrid, who is also a "choice" character.
There are redundancies in the game with the heroes since theres multiple copies for some of the professions. (I never say that redundancy is bad, but its still a redundancy).
Now...that being said. E+R is NOT superior to E+E, but rather having E already removes the need for another E so early in the game. R is not superior as a class (never said that). Also note, i never say there is ANY need for a Ranger.
Choosing E again becomes a personal choice. Thats when superiority of classes and preference of skills and builds comes in.
At most im trying to incite some people here to come up with reasons to counter my statements. Which is fun. Thanks Fenix.
I need this cause it keeps my mind working properly. :P
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Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens
There's no argument for needing Jin over Sosuke. Is there any proof you need a Ranger hero earlier on as opposed to an Ele hero? You counter your own argument. You prefer Jin because you can get Vekk earlier than Sosuke. Thats your personal choice and as such it isn't gospel for everyone else.
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Vekk is a mandatory Hero. Sousuke is not.
Both are elementalists. Both are easy to get (more or less).
If you do not choose Sousuke you get Jin.
The only other Ranger in Nightfall is Margrid, who is also a "choice" character.
There are redundancies in the game with the heroes since theres multiple copies for some of the professions. (I never say that redundancy is bad, but its still a redundancy).
Now...that being said. E+R is NOT superior to E+E, but rather having E already removes the need for another E so early in the game. R is not superior as a class (never said that). Also note, i never say there is ANY need for a Ranger.
Choosing E again becomes a personal choice. Thats when superiority of classes and preference of skills and builds comes in.
HawkofStorms
Eh, for all we know, the Charr ranger hero will be manditory and the NEXT hero to get in GW:EN. Heck, since it was a preview event, somethings might be out of order and you might get him before you get Vekk (like in Factions, entering Pogmai Valley from the marketplace). So for all you know, this arguement is invalidated anyway. Wait until the retail version goes live before making assumptions based on the preview weekend.
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by EternalTempest
I have seen Olias vs Whispers and the same setup/build with MM and SS.
Olias is better MM, Whsipers is better SS when you try the same builds w/ the hero's. |
Did you give them really /equal/ conditions? Same weapon, runes, insignia? Same enemies aggroed? Enemies aggroed in same patterns?
If you did only few tests your results are going to be very biased - especially by your own predjustice. Its easy to notice stupid stuff on Whispers if you start with idea that he is bad mm and notice accidental good placement of ss if you think he is good at that.
---
You still provide anecdotal evidence, not hard facts.
Derive actually good tests.
Like:
give both Barbs with same rank in curses and start whacking one dummy with physical damage. See which of them reacts faster and starts to cast barbs.
Give each of them bone fiend, botm and heal area same rank for death magic and healing prayers. see which one of them gets up amount of minions to limit fasters while you kill dummines with whatever, then examine frequency of spamming botm/heal area and notice which one of them looses minion to degen faster.
do both tests ate least 32 times.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Eh, for all we know, the Charr ranger hero will be manditory and the NEXT hero to get in GW:EN. Heck, since it was a preview event, somethings might be out of order and you might get him before you get Vekk (like in Factions, entering Pogmai Valley from the marketplace). So for all you know, this arguement is invalidated anyway. Wait until the retail version goes live before making assumptions based on the preview weekend.
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And regardless....you show that the Charr hero is NOT gained early on, which is one of the stipulations of the situation.
Taki
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
The following is not personal preference:
Vekk is a mandatory Hero. Sousuke is not. Both are elementalists. Both are easy to get (more or less). If you do not choose Sousuke you get Jin. The only other Ranger in Nightfall is Margrid, who is also a "choice" character. There are redundancies in the game with the heroes since theres multiple copies for some of the professions. (I never say that redundancy is bad, but its still a redundancy). |
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Now...that being said. E+R is NOT superior to E+E,
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And E+E is not superior to E+R
Then either combination chosen will be personal preference, i.e. there is no 'need' to pick Jin or Souske.
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
but rather having E already removes the need for another E so early in the game.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
R is not superior as a class (never said that). Also note, i never say there is ANY need for a Ranger.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Choosing E again becomes a personal choice. Thats when superiority of classes and preference of skills and builds comes in.
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EternalTempest
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
How many of /whatever/ did you do to assess their abilities correctly? Did you do enough to minimize randomnes of spawns and your human movement?
Did you give them really /equal/ conditions? Same weapon, runes, insignia? Same enemies aggroed? Enemies aggroed in same patterns? If you did only few tests your results are going to be very biased - especially by your own predjustice. Its easy to notice stupid stuff on Whispers if you start with idea that he is bad mm and notice accidental good placement of ss if you think he is good at that. --- You still provide anecdotal evidence, not hard facts. Derive actually good tests. Like: give both Barbs with same rank in curses and start whacking one dummy with physical damage. See which of them reacts faster and starts to cast barbs. Give each of them bone fiend, botm and heal area same rank for death magic and healing prayers. see which one of them gets up amount of minions to limit fasters while you kill dummines with whatever, then examine frequency of spamming botm/heal area and notice which one of them looses minion to degen faster. do both tests ate least 32 times. |
I think, will double check I was mentioned researching this what I've posted is what I've seen, so far. You may be right, but I'm still looking in to this. I wanted to get out the impressions / things I've noticed, to bounce ideas off people as well.