DAGGERS! 15^50 vs. Energy +5!

soul of seraphs

soul of seraphs

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2006

at home

Rohar's Roughnecks[RRN]

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16 Sep 2007 at 03:59 - 1
Hello.

They call me Soul, Soul of Seraphs is my full GW name. Pleased to meet you.

I have been, for a long time, against 15^50 for daggers. Now, before you blast my head off with reasons why I shouldn't be, I stand before you with the TRUTH. It may shock you, so buckle your easy chair belt, your going a fast, dangerous, TRUTHERCOASTER! (ok that was awful, im so sorry.)

Please note that this is not an official experiment, but is legit by an oath of honesty

OBJECTIVE

Find which is more useful in the long run: 15^50 or energy+5?

BEGINNING DETAILS

I only had Fifteen(15) points on dagger mastery, No other bonuses to deal more damage or hit critical hits more often.

MATERIALS



Please note: All daggers are equipped with mods that do not give damage bonuses of any sort, other than the inscriptions and if they are or are not customized.


PROCEDURE

All my experiments were on the Isle of the Nameless' 60 armor suits, for maximum damage and clearest results.

I would select my dagger (Bonus: +35, +20, +15 +0) and strike the armor suit 10 times. I would then record the data. Repeat on all bonuses.

I would then try the big one, the one that got my heart pounding. Attack skills. Are attack skills totally affected by 15^50? I used the same procedure with Black Mantis Thrust 10 times on each bonus.

DATA

~Normal attack~

This data is for damage dealt while normal attacking.

BONUS:
+35= 16, 16, 27, 26, 11, 36, 18, 23, 13, 37 Average=* 22.3
+20= 11, 13, 18, 10, 11, 12, 32, 36, 18, 21 Average=* 18.2
+15= 13, 18, 13, 18, 31, 27, 31, 34, 18, 12 Average=* 20.5
+0= 14, 29, 11, 27, 31, 9, 14, 17, 32, 15 Average=* 19.9

DIFFERENCE: 2.4 damage

~Black Mantis Thrust~

I chose Black Mantis Thrust because its a very basic and widely used attack skill. This is for damage dealt.

BONUS:
+35= 37, 41, 57, 36, 32, 37, 57, 35, 51, 44 Average=* 42.7
+20= 41, 34, 31, 41, 35, 52, 42, 36, 42, 54 Average=* 40.8
+15= 37, 51, 35, 49, 41, 30, 36, 39, 41, 34 Average=* 39.3
+0= 30, 36, 31, 52, 50, 49, 30, 38, 34, 37 Average=* 38.7

DIFFERENCE: 4.0 damage

* Hitting critical hits sort of messed the averages up, but regardless I hit an average of 2.2231 critical hits per test. so the data still stands legit, but only by .2231% of a critical hit! Yikes! Please note that averages were double-checked!

CONCLUSION

Unfortunatly theres no denying that theres not much of a difference between a damage +35% bonus compared to a +0% bonus, even on attack skills. I'm sort of relieved about that though, it would be embarrassing to know you've been wrong the WHOLE TIME lol . Regardless of the data, opinions still stand and will forever be respected. I will forever have the right to use and hold this data as UNDENIABLE PROOF.

Please dont bite my head off!

-Soul of Seraphs

Comments? Questions? DATA BUGS OR FLAWS!? Please feel free to E-mail me at:

[email protected]

...And remember; Souls got yo back!

--------------------------------------------------------------------



Please take a moment to thank the suits of 60 armor everywhere for making this experiment possible.

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

16 Sep 2007 at 04:07 - 2
While it may not be in the appropriate place, this is definantly some pretty cool information. Thanks bro!

soul of seraphs

soul of seraphs

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16 Sep 2007 at 04:08 - 3
oh dear, where should this go? :'0 and Ty XD

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

16 Sep 2007 at 04:10 - 4
Yes, I thought everyone knew that 15>50 is attack damage only. It's a small amount of extra damage, yes, but many combos don't need the extra max energy.

I'd suggest a 15% bonus damage set for normal use, and bring a combo requiring 25e or less. If your combo requires more, add radiant insignias or attunement runes until you can use it.

When you get DP, bust out the +5e daggers, so you can perform your combo again.

Zeek Aran

Zeek Aran

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Earth, sadly

BORK

A/

16 Sep 2007 at 04:31 - 5
Sorry, but I don't think this is very accurate. I think you should do it 100 times each atleast.

Example: Flip a coin 100 times. 80 tails 20 heads. How accurate is that when looking at 50-50 chance?

Jessyi

Jessyi

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/

16 Sep 2007 at 04:49 - 6
Guild Wars is a game of small advantages, not huge ones. Max damage and max defense items are easy and cheap to come by, even if they are common skins and so everyone is offered a common ground that is easy to reach.

The first part, and the easiest part to understand about being good at this game is realizing that nickels and dimes added together become dollars. +9 hp from a sup vigor instead of a major, +1 hp from a perfect weapon mod instead of a +29 one, up to an additional 18 armor on a shield for non-specced casters and 26 for specced casters and warriors. Most people are adamant about not giving up that extra point of life on a weapon, or not equipping armor fully with insignias and appropriate runes, or an extra percentage point on an enchant mod, and so on. Neither would they surrender any additional damage from a weapon that they are specced to USE, even IF your numbers are correct and the difference is only a few points.

The truth is, there is no reason not to have your cake and eat it too. Most good assassins carry 15^50 zealous and 15^50 vamp daggers, both customized so that they can manage their energy by swapping weapons. Assassins don't benefit significantly from additional base energy - they do by using efficient combos, proper use of their primary attribute and by weapon swapping. And why do they do this? Because they know that better preparedness and a willingness to actively monitor their energy makes a better player and a better player never drops a dime.

-Jessyi

MoldyRiceFrenzy

MoldyRiceFrenzy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

Santa Rosa, CA

Confusion in The Ranks[tArD]

Mo/W

16 Sep 2007 at 04:57 - 7
ive always used +5 because its ezier to fulfill my chain.

id want to be able to have more energy than acouple extra dmg...

when it comes down to it the 15% more of 17... is like 2 dmg... if u really want more dmg, bring both zealous and vampiric, vampiric when u have energy, thus u can have +3> 2, and use ur combo. this is what i do.

in addition to this, i know many sins like to use energy armor rather than health... so in reality im just making my survibility higher, while lower dmg very lowly, but having the same amt of spike time... so i guess in reality im just lowering dmg(2) to be able to survive spikes/solo better

Aerial Assault

Aerial Assault

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2007

IGN: Ingame Notoriety

IGN: Ingame Notoriety

16 Sep 2007 at 04:57 - 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessyi
Because they know that better preparedness and a willingness to actively monitor their energy makes a better player and a better player never drops a dime.

-Jessyi
QFT.

This is why I hate seeing monks with60-70pts of energy. You know who you are, the ones with only 2pips of energy regen cause of the 15/-1 items and WITHOUT a switchoff set.

tongling

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2006

16 Sep 2007 at 05:04 - 9
why long article ?
just use 15^50 on high damage weapons, en+5 on low damage weapons. done.

soul of seraphs

soul of seraphs

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16 Sep 2007 at 05:06 - 10
O.o uh oh, hope this doesnt start a war, already getting mixed opinions. meep. And im really truly sry jessyi, but you lost me at "the first part".

Jessyi

Jessyi

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/

16 Sep 2007 at 05:07 - 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by tongling
why long article ?
just use 15^50 on high damage weapons, en+5 on low damage weapons. done. I'm curious. Why would a damage dealer want low damage weapons?

Keifru

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2007

[Meep] Biscuit of Dewm

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16 Sep 2007 at 05:12 - 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessyi
I'm curious. Why would a damage dealer want low damage weapons? Because daggers have an inherently small min/max damage. 15% on 7-17 wont boost as much as a 15^50 on pretty much all other melee weapons.

soul of seraphs

soul of seraphs

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Join Date: Aug 2006

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16 Sep 2007 at 05:13 - 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessyi
I'm curious. Why would a damage dealer want low damage weapons? Thats like asking "why do sins use daggers?". daggers alone dont hit for crap, and last time i checked, assassins are as close to damage dealers as you can get without dropping your knives and casting some meteors.

so when you ask "why does a damge dealer want low damage weapons?", ask a sin.

And also, if its one thing im sure im good a dealing with in this game, its assassins, and i carry only 1 pair of daggers that get the job done very nicely. carrying 2 sets of daggers may make you feel more prepared, but what it really boils down to is that it may sometime turn into an unnecessary distraction.

tongling

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2006

16 Sep 2007 at 05:22 - 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by soul of seraphs
O.o uh oh, hope this doesnt start a war, already getting mixed opinions. meep. And im really truly sry jessyi, but you lost me at "the first part". dont listen all that weapon swapping crap, you are a sin, you swap too much or too often, you most likely get killed by ppl dont swap or miss lots of opportunities to interrupt. Weapon swapping for sin who fast attacking is not so good. en+5 is a lot better than 15^50 for sin. you can't trust your efficient combo, yor combo gets interrupt, you got knockdown, your opponents outsmart you and all kinds of other shat make you really really appreciate 5 more energy. you only need to swap for elemental damage.

soul of seraphs

soul of seraphs

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16 Sep 2007 at 05:24 - 15
Tongling layin down the law and tellin it like it is!

Protagonist Hero

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2007

16 Sep 2007 at 05:30 - 16
Soul your good but you won't help a fellow Sin out with farming. Therefore your not a nice player.

Jessyi

Jessyi

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/

16 Sep 2007 at 05:31 - 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by soul of seraphs
Thats like asking "why do sins use daggers?". daggers alone dont hit for crap, and last time i checked, assassins are as close to damage dealers as you can get without dropping your knives and casting some meteors.

so when you ask "why does a damge dealer want low damage weapons?", ask a sin. I think you're losing sight of the question here. If weapon classes can be sorted from best to worst according to their weapon's max damage, then everyone should delete their sins, paragons, rangers, and warriors right now and make dervishes instead. Obviously I know that the different classes carry different utilities that make them more useful in the niche they're going to fill.

All assassin's daggers at max damage are 7-17. You'd be an idiot to use non-max weapons (assuming you're not level 5). Yes, assassin autoattacks cannot exert as much pressure as warrior ones - I know that. I know that they're not supposed to. I also know that a 15^50 axe will yeild a higher absolute amount of damage over an unmodded axe than a 15^50 set of daggers will over an unmodded set. That doesn't mean that the lower difference on the daggers is irrelevant.

My argument doesn't even have to refute the evidence that you've provided. Even if you're correct there's still no reason to surrender even a few points of extra damage. Against an equally skilled opponent with the setup I've suggested, you would lose.

-Jessyi

Zeek Aran

Zeek Aran

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Join Date: Aug 2006

Earth, sadly

BORK

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16 Sep 2007 at 05:31 - 18
o.O Does 15^50 only affect normal space-bar attacks??

If yes, then does it boost Shattering Assault?

Master Ketsu

Master Ketsu

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Join Date: May 2006

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16 Sep 2007 at 05:41 - 19
I think by low vs high damage weapons I think he ment for other classes...hammers, bows, ect.

15^50 with hammer = win.

Akuma

Akuma

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16 Sep 2007 at 05:43 - 20
The conclusion is that your math is flawed.

Redfeather1975

Redfeather1975

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Join Date: Sep 2006

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16 Sep 2007 at 05:49 - 21
A lot of things look worthless on their own.
Min/maxer players will stack effects and it starts to show there.
You can get noticeable extra damage with the right combination of mods and right combination of skills/enchants/stances.

FelixCarter

FelixCarter

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Mo/Me

16 Sep 2007 at 06:21 - 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akuma
The conclusion is that your math is flawed. Wow. That was very constructive.

On a side note, it's odd that there are still some green modded weapon combos missing from the game. An example is Daggers with +5 Energy, +30 Health, and 20%/20% armor penetration. There are a number of other combos mission from the green system, too.

Also, good job on looking into this. While it's a very rough estimate, I think it deserves some appriciation. Kudos.

Lord Natural

Lord Natural

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Join Date: Jul 2005

Canada

Black Crescent [BC]

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16 Sep 2007 at 06:28 - 23
Unless your particular combo won't work without 5 more energy than you can muster, there is no reason to use +5 daggers. In pvp, playing an offensive role you want every single point of damage you can squeeze out. In pve, if you find a +5 makes things easier, there's no reason not to use it. You can probably use your starter daggers and complete the campaign easily.

Batou of Nine

Batou of Nine

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Join Date: Aug 2005

California, USA

Angel Sharks [AS] (RiP [KaiZ] T__T")

Mo/E

16 Sep 2007 at 07:18 - 24
Lets preach everyones favorite sermon...

"It all comes down to preference!"

This age old fortune cookie, wise-man, etc etc remark still holds true. Just by the posts in this thread you can see there are lots of opinions on why to use either dmg or energy inscription.

I personall do the trade-off. In order to maintain as HIGH criticals as i can get i use 7-17 dmg, 15^50 daggers, and all i need to maintain a sufficient energy pool is a Zealous mod on them daggers. gg

The math by the OP is appreciated, but highly unnecessary. BTW, this belongs in the Assasin's Forum. The OP was a fun read tho!

cheers.

X Cytherea X

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

A/Mo

16 Sep 2007 at 08:21 - 25
i run 16 dagger, 15^50, and vamp. it all adds up in the long run. +5e is for lazy sins who cant manage energy. most of the time anyway, you will be using energy from the bottom of your bar, making the +5e have an effect only at the start of the match. it's waste of an upgrade.

Bug John

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

16 Sep 2007 at 08:46 - 26
daggers are low damage weapon ? did you forget they have the fastest attack speed ?

if daggers had more than 7-17 dmg, they'd be totally imba with double and critical strikes

besides, you can easily strike for 100+ damage with most dual attacks


damage from daggers mostly comes from skills (added damage, conditions, enchant removal), so 15^50 may be less important than on a hammer, but you don't really need +5 energy all the time

Sab

Sab

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

16 Sep 2007 at 08:55 - 27
By default, you'd run 15^50 to dish out as much damage as possible. If you don't have enough energy for your combo, use Radiant's insignias. If you still don't have enough energy, get a new combo. I don't see why you'd gimp yourself out of some damage, considering that there's a big difference between leaving your target with 0hp and leaving him with 1hp.

Stormlord Alex

Stormlord Alex

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Join Date: Dec 2005

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Soul of Melandru [sOm]

W/E

16 Sep 2007 at 09:03 - 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bug John
daggers are low damage weapon ? did you forget they have the fastest attack speed ? Same attack speed as swords/axes, actually. Gets faster on auto-attack due to double strikes... but auto-attacking with daggers is pretty pathetic and not worth mentioning.

Anyho, a 15^50 vs +5e debate?

For the most part... 15^50 on daggers. Sins are a damage dealing class, revovling around spikes, and as such you want to max out their damage.

+5e is a set I'd want when I've picked up too much DP to pull of my entire chain. Till then, I'd rather up my chances of killing something with a few extra damage.

MrSlayer

MrSlayer

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

United Kingdom

Quit Whining And [PLAY]

Mo/

16 Sep 2007 at 09:27 - 29
Intriguing. You should test again for, as was said, a different weapon. Would be interesting to see how it effects the average damage on something with a much larger damage range. Perhaps a scythe or an axe.

I love this little war. When presented with actual research, people are still defensive. To be honest, I can see why you might still use it. +4 damage might not seem like much, but if you are using a build with maybe 5-6 attack skills, each with varying + damage, you might find that +20-+30 across your entire chain is all that would be needed with a +5e set to finish the bastard off.

Still, as I said, gogo Axe/Scythe test O_O

RhanoctJocosa

RhanoctJocosa

Legendary Korean

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

W/

16 Sep 2007 at 11:50 - 30
Why on earth did you make this pointless thread?

You don't need +5e daggers with Critical Strikes.

Noone cares about your gold daggers.

Learn to play.

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

16 Sep 2007 at 12:03 - 31
So like...you're dumb enough for not using Wild Blow to test your results...and why should we care? I use 15>50. I use +5e. I don't care what you think is best. Real sins swap.

Mork from Ork

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2007

16 Sep 2007 at 12:19 - 32
First, thanks to the OP for testing this out.

However, reading this thread it sounds like what it comes down to is that both +15dmg and +5 energy are sort of unnecessary for us sins with our great skills and attacks.

Those mods were made for the poor warriors and other profs who just aren't as good as us and needed a little boost.:P

Selket

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

Grand Court of Selket/Sebelkeh

What If You Had An Outpost Named After You [slkt]

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16 Sep 2007 at 12:32 - 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessyi
Most good assassins carry 15^50 zealous and 15^50 vamp daggers You forgot elemental.

Diddy bow

Diddy bow

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2006

Jawsome!!!!!!!!!!!

looking for one :p

A/D

16 Sep 2007 at 12:53 - 34
Math flawed or not +5 is still better to use :P

Bug John

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

16 Sep 2007 at 13:18 - 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
Same attack speed as swords/axes, actually. Gets faster on auto-attack due to double strikes... but auto-attacking with daggers is pretty pathetic and not worth mentioning. because when your attack skills are not recharged you're just standing here doing nothing...

soul of seraphs

soul of seraphs

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Join Date: Aug 2006

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16 Sep 2007 at 13:33 - 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa
Why on earth did you make this pointless thread?

You don't need +5e daggers with Critical Strikes.

Noone cares about your gold daggers.

Learn to play.
1) I made it because it was bugging me, not because i wanted to see how many bees nests i can stir up.

2) Youre right, you dont NEED it, its just better to have it.

3) I CARE ABOUT MY GOLD DAGGERS, DICK. besides, aside from the salient daggers those are just some daggers i bought specifically for the experiment.

4) I play just fine, ty. I dont need or want your input.

Quote: Originally Posted by Yanman.be So like...you're dumb enough for not using Wild Blow to test your results...and why should we care? I use 15>50. I use +5e. I don't care what you think is best. Real sins swap. Wild blow? are you joking? I honestly seriously hope to god you mean wild 'strike'. And switching doesnt make you a 'real sin' it makes you just that much more distracted. there i go re-quoting myself.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mork from Ork
First, thanks to the OP for testing this out.

However, reading this thread it sounds like what it comes down to is that both +15dmg and +5 energy are sort of unnecessary for us sins with our great skills and attacks.

Those mods were made for the poor warriors and other profs who just aren't as good as us and needed a little boost.:P you have.....! ...a pretty good point there, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protagonist Hero
Soul your good but you won't help a fellow Sin out with farming. Therefore your not a nice player. How the hell did you find me!? X0 ZOMGZ!!!

Clord

Clord

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Finland

Victory Via Valour

16 Sep 2007 at 13:34 - 37
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Ungues_of_the_Forgotten

Good for skill bars what require a lot energy for attack combo repeating.

Faer

Faer

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo

Join Date: Feb 2006

16 Sep 2007 at 13:58 - 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by soul of seraphs
Wild blow? are you joking? I honestly seriously hope to god you mean wild 'strike'. No, he means Wild Blow. The one skill that always maxes out your base damage potential in testing circumstances by guaranteeing a critical hit on your target. It's simply superior.

If you are going to test something, do it right.

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

16 Sep 2007 at 14:00 - 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by soul of seraphs
Wild blow? are you joking? I honestly seriously hope to god you mean wild 'strike'. And switching doesnt make you a 'real sin' it makes you just that much more distracted. there i go re-quoting myself. Perhaps because Wild Blow always does a crit hit? Therefor you have the same damage formula, irregardless of what daggers you use. Off course, this will take out the random factor, and is actually equally bad to test your opinion, because you will be only testing it vs 17 base dmg, and not 7 or anything in between. 15% of 17 is more than 15% of 7, you see?


There's no reason to use Black Mantis Thrust is there?

So you're distracted by weapon swapping? Boy, am I glad you don't play monk in high level GvG... most of them swap weapons for every spell they cast...

Oh, and no need to insult someone because they don't care about expensive weaponry when I can kill just as good with my 0 gold equipment... J menu ftw!

RhanoctJocosa

RhanoctJocosa

Legendary Korean

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

W/

16 Sep 2007 at 14:03 - 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by soul of seraphs
1) I made it because it was bugging me, not because i wanted to see how many bees nests i can stir up.

2) Youre right, you dont NEED it, its just better to have it.

3) I CARE ABOUT MY GOLD DAGGERS, DICK. besides, aside from the salient daggers those are just some daggers i bought specifically for the experiment.

4) I play just fine, ty. I dont need or want your input.
1) If you're a half decent _player_ you'll realise sins only need x amount of energy (never more than what radiant insignias provide) for spiking and even if it's not a spike build you will frequently get 3 energy on hit, thus eliminating the need for +5e daggers. I.e. if you had a brain you wouldn't make this thread.
2) +5e daggers would only be needed if you desperately needed to pull a skill off, e.g. shadow prisoning on a flagger who is about to cap with like ~3 seconds left for your boost.
3) You might, noone else cares.
4) ..................



Quote:
Originally Posted by soul of seraphs
Wild blow? are you joking? I honestly seriously hope to god you mean wild 'strike'. And switching doesnt make you a 'real sin' it makes you just that much more distracted. there i go re-quoting myself. you know what wild blow does right..................?