The matter of "ease" or "difficulty" in PvE.

A matter that direly needs to be addressed IMHO.
No... this isn't a complaint one way or another about the general-purpose difficulty of Guild Wars as a game.

I simply wish to emphasize in no uncertain terms just how subjective the matter of ease or difficulty actually is.

These boards are littered on a regular basis with complaints from some people about content being too difficult... and usually countered with direct objections from the other side that it is too easy. Nobody generally goes any further than that... besides the occasional slagging match.


But on what basis does a person deem something "too easy" or "too difficult"?
I'm sure it differs from one person to the next.

Personally, I consider something "too easy" if the entire thing is over before I really got to experience it.... i.e. if the enemy can all be one-hit killed with C+space and the group wiped out in under 10 seconds. As such, Shing Jea in normal mode is demonstrably "too easy" for a level 20 team. Bukdek Byway, though "easy" ... is not what I'd consider "too easy" since the battles can't be instantly C+spaced away to nothingness in mere moments.

On the flipside... I consider something "too difficult" if the mobs cannot be beaten without someone dying. While in theory it is possible to survive almost anything in Guild Wars, there are some areas where death is unavoidable without a very specialised team. For example... the Domain of Fear in Torment, without any Lightbringer ranks, I would personally consider "too difficult" (though with enough Lightbringer it becomes manageable)... whereas Raisu Palace, even without Celestial Skills, is what I'd consider perfect difficulty and good fun.


Now... other people will have different ways of defining these.
I'm sure there are some who consider the game "too easy" if they CAN get through without dying. Heck, there are probably some who consider it "too easy" if they can get through at all.

And THAT is where the problem lies.


.... It also leads me to my next point:


Personal Challenge

Now pay close attention. This is indisputable fact.

In a game like Guild Wars... there is almost infinite scope for a person to make the game more difficult for themselves.
Contrariwise, there is very little scope for a person to make the game easier for themselves.

So why... therefore.... does the game revolve around those calling for it to be harder?
The folks who have difficulty with things already have no choice but to either get superior help to get through the tougher areas..... or just not to go at all. Yet for those who want a challenge.... all they need do is reduce the size of their party.... or change their build to a more awkward one. They could try playing primarily as their secondary class for instance. Perhaps all they need do is accumulate a bit of death penalty. There is almost infinite potential for them to make the game more difficult for themselves...... BUT instead, they expect A-Net to do it for them, and consequentially the same content is exponentially more difficult for those who were already challenged.


Now.... I'm not saying I find PvE in general to be difficult. I have a bit more trouble than some people here in a few places, but on the whole I'm satisfied with the difficulty of Normal Mode PvE. I only use Hard Mode for farming however.... since I'm not comfortable with that level of difficulty.
And likewise there are many who can't even do as much as I do because they find the game too challenging for one reason or other. Simply giving them a different build won't make it easier for them. Some people just lack the innate mind-set needed to make it in the harder parts of the game....
Exactly how are they supposed to enjoy what they have purchased if the game is ever more revolving around those who bay for it to be tougher (who are too damned lazy or uncreative to set their own challenges).... and ever further out of their reach?


Believe it or not.... PvE is not supposed to be a sport.
It is not meant to be competitive. Leave that for PvP.
It really needs to be a stimulus for thought and creativity; NOT a test of reflexes.


[p.s. I won't take too kindly to the "lern 2 play" tards chanting their mantra here. It isn't relevant nor wanted. I'm a conservative, 0ld-sk00l gamer; not one of these modern age casuals.]

[p.p.s. This is NOT a cry to make Guild Wars easier. This is just a request for people to be a bit more understanding of the ability level of others.]

For me, "easy" is: Flag heroes, maybe call a target, go AFK, come back, move on to next group of foes, repeat. As you might expect, I consider "difficult" anything that actually makes me pay attention to what I, or my team, is doing.

Sadly, this is how I play all of Normal Mode PvE, and I get by with it in Hard Mode on occasion as well. It's just too tedius for me to bother concentrating when I have a team of AI that, while fairly retarded, can get the job done with very little interaction from me. It's all about Build Wars in PvE, and personally, I don't find Build Wars fun. I do it because I want to mess around in Hard Mode End-Game Content with friends and guildies, and that's it.

This, to me, is easy. Setting up a build, and being able to let the game play itself.

Fair enough... though if it weren't for situations like that, I'd have found myself dead a great many times by now whenever I get DCed in the middle of a battle.
It annoys me greatly when that happens.... but more often than not, when I reconnect the enemies are all dead and there are a few bits of loot to pick up. I'd rather it be that way than to reconnect and find the party loitering around at a Res Shrine with death penalty.

Admittedly.... the best possible scenario is to get reconnected to find nothing much has changed and both sides are still fighting each other.
To feel like I make a difference is important to me.....

Honestly, I was let down by the difficulty of EOTN. I played through reasonably casually, and finished it in 2 days. But the point is, I finished it all with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen. There was two occasions that I failed a mission. The final mission. I failed it twice in a row, due to my mistake on hero bars, which was solved when I changed them (my 3rd attempt I won without a death, let alone anyone below 80% health). Now this may seem like I am bragging, but I am now. Let me make that clear. I just had no difficulty with the game at all. Sure, Dinosaurs would wipe me now and then, but I had one or two Hard Res's, which more than made up for it.

I have decided to show my exact bars, in order to see what I was working with. This will show you that I didn't run anything out of the ordinary, I just ran average bars, and didn't lose. So here they are:

Firstly, I am a Warrior, so I used the following:

Dragon Slash, Standing Slash, Sun and Moon Slash, Flail, "There's Nothing To Fear!", "Finish Him!", "For Great Justice!", Sunspear Res Sig

Not that out of the ordinary. TNTF gave excellent defense, Finish Him made targets at ~20% health instantly die, and FGJ allowed me to spam Dslash over and over.

Next my Elementalist Hero bars. I ran 3 of these, although the 3rd was different. They were:


Searing Flames, Glowing Gaze, Fireball, Glyph Lesser, Heal Party, Mark of Rodgort, Fire Attunement, Res Sig

For my 3rd Ele, he would bring Cure Hex instead of Mark of Rodgort, and Res Chant instead of Res Sig.


Quite a standard build. I then ran Mhenlo, Lina, Cynn, Herta. Cynn added to the fire damage, Herta had wards which was very handy, and the monks did their jobs well.

Now sometimes, I changed my hero bars. Like when I was doing Gadd's story, and the last missions. These bars were General Morgahn, Hayda and Livia. Bars:

Hayda: Spear of Lightning, Merciless Spear, Aria of Zeal, Go For The Eyes!, Expel Hexes [E], Signet of Synergy (or Mirror of Disenchantment), Aggressive Refrain, Res Sig

Morgahn: Spear of Lightning, Merciless Spear, Ballad of Restoration, Watch Yourself!, Song of Restoration [E], Signet of Synergy, Aggressive Refrain, Res Sig

Livia: Spiteful Spirit, Reckless Haste, Enfeebling Blood, Blood Ritual, Well of Ruin, Glyph Lesser, Signet of Lost Souls, Res Sig


Once again, standard bars. The Paragons have excellent defense, and excellent offense, and the Necro adds in defense in the form of melee shutdown, as well as damage. I used the same 4 henchmen.

I ran these two combinations for the entire game, without any problems. When I went against the end boss, I had brought Sandstorm + Savannah + Livia, with myself bringing Winter, but found it to be too janky, so I swapped to the Para/Para/Nec combo, and the boss was dead without anyone below 80%.

So, overall, I had no problems with EOTN, with reasonably simple bars. The difficulty isn't a problem, it's just about having smart skill bars, and being prepared for what you are going to face.

I guess I don't consider the game getting "easy" as much as it is "boring". The difficulty in PvE is not a test of reflexes or skill, but how you put together your build. I find it boring and easy when I put together a build that steamrolls a whole campaign. The challenge for me is when I have to come up with different builds for different areas. When I come up with a build and am able to use it for an entire continent is when I conclude that it was not challenging enough.

In this sense, GW:EN has so far disappointed me. I've had vary little variation in my teambuild, and have had to vary little with my teambuild in dungeons: I use the same set up for every one of them, with the only change happening to my build (and I take out the MM in a few).

And the only way to do so is horribly boring (insert annoying "you can't have your cake and eat it too lololol" saying.)

I think the game's quite easy as long as you know how to adapt and to learn how to counter. It's not possible for some one to know every single skill in the game when they've just started, nor is it possible for them to know how to counter the enemies they've just started to face.

The idiots who just say "learn 2 play k?" are mainly the people who want to seem like they know it all, which is even more so if that's ALL they say. People who are more experienced can actually provide help for others and how to counter the areas they struggle with, providing they at least tell others what they're struggling with.

You don't immediately learn the game and newer players do struggle. With help from older players, giving advice to attack small groups at a time and wait for others to regen energy, you'll eventually find the game far easier than when you just started.

But those two really do play a part. You might not appreciate it just because you can steamroll through everything... but I know from personal experience that even two people with totally identical builds and equipment can often get totally different results. Often this is down to experience using the build, but sometimes it can be as whimsical a matter as connection speed / reliability or... yes.... even reflexes. I'm absolutely useless at interrupting as Mesmer or Ranger... and the only such option available to me is to Daze the enemy and wail on them as much as possible. There are other folks out there who can quite easily interrupt spells with 3/4 second cast times. I'm just not that talented.

Why do you phrase it as though "boring" and "challenging" are opposites?
That is something I have yet to understand.... but I'd imagine it is down to differences in background and personal psyche.
And what precisely do you mean by "steamrolling"? .... If you're talking about builds that will kill anything without even making use of its full potential.... then I'd almost be inclined to agree. If you just mean one build that can beat everything.... then I'd tend to have a different opinion.
Considering that I draw the entertainment from the overall feel of the fight and not the specifics of the skills used.... the simple fact that it is a clash of forces and somehow I must come out on top in order to progress to new depths.... I'd have to query what part of it you find entertaining? Are you more focused on lack of variety in your own bar than the variety of your surrounding world? Do you prefer to be forced to change what you do systematically than to change it of your own volition and choice?

This isn't criticism; just genuine curiosity...
I've never found "challenge" to equate to "fun" in particular... so this is somewhat of a psychological exercise for me.


You don't like tweaking your build for novelty value rather than necessity?
You never ran around Shing Jea Island in your underwear?
You find such things boring? Sounds kinda ironic, to me.... ^_^;

If it is boring, then it only demonstrates a lack of self-entertainment ability and creativity. I'm sure you could manage to find something amusing to challenge yourself with if you tried.



While that is true to a degree.... the matter of skill and mentality still plays a part.
I count myself among those sorta people who.... while reasonably experienced at the game (with certain exceptions), lack the simple skill needed to excel at certain parts.
While experience alone is sufficient for almost all of Normal Mode PvE .... it takes something more to do well in the Elite Areas or Hard Mode. Knowing the skill-bar and how to use the skills is one thing, but knowing the optimal place to position yourself relative to the enemy and the rest of the party, being able to adjust it as they move in synchronisation and timing your skills around theirs isn't dependant on experience alone.

And yes.... I somewhat resent that I should be denied a substantial amount of game content because it was added soley for the sake of those who have the skill, when despite my best efforts I cannot do as they do.

Difficulty is an illusion. You are given the tools (skills, armor, runes, etc.) to make the game as difficult as you would like it to be. Those of us who just like to steamroll through the game have the ability to do so because we know how to build a team capable of doing it in the shortest amount of time possible. By being creative, you can make the game as difficult as you like. The reason the game is not more difficult overall is because the average-below average player also needs to be able to succeed in the game. If the more casual player is not able to succeed, then the game community dwindles because many of them will decide to quit the game. This is not to say that the game doesn't reward the better players. For example, if you can complete an elite area faster than most people, you will be rewarded with more quality drops than those who can't complete it nearly as quickly.

I think people are upset mostly by the difficulty of EotN. They feel the elite endgame content (destroyer weapons) are too easy to obtain. I would have to agree. However, I don't think the difficulty of the areas need to be adjusted, just the drop rate of the high-end items (See: Onyx stones). The game mechanics also need to be fixed (See: Ferry to Duncan).

Too easy: Standing there with 0 skills and having 7 hench complete your objective. This describes 90% or more of GW PvE, NM and HM.

Some people are more than able to have hench do everything for them, yet some people fail utilizing the exact same party. Whether something is easy or hard depends entirely on an individual's skill level (this includes ability to control aggro, pull aggro, call vital targets,etc.). Gimping yourself (DP, etc.) doesn't remove your skill level and won't actually increase difficulty of the area. This is why people require additional, more-challenging content from Anet, or they simply go off to a new game.

Personally for me, this game is easy. I am in a very pve happy guild (sms) but even when i am not playing with them, H/H is still very easy to me. I decided to see how my team would handle THK HM without me. I build 3 hero bars and brought 4 henchies and got to the end flagged them and sat back and watched. They died, as i tohught they should, but it took a long time for that. Had i been participating, calling targets ect...i have no doubt in my mind that it would have been an easy win. For me, the only hard things about this game are the end missions on HM. Even those are easy with the right people. Take mallyx for example. He is supposedly very hard. Not so much..paragons and rits are your friends. They make this game so easy. All im saying is this game could be harder, but the casual player i think would have difficulty playing in any of these areas without dying a lot. Oh well, its all personal perspective. I personally think the game is not hard.

Y'know... the funny thing is... if I had the h4x ability to wash through all three campaigns, Eye of the North AND the Elite Areas like I do the starter islands.... I would most probably use it. I expect others would too (and then complain the game was too easy because of it, despite nobody forcing them to use it)...
No such thing exists though.

Urgoz's Warren likely won't ever be accessable for me, and it certainly won't ever be as easy as Shing Jea (I just want to see what it looks like for myself first-hand, and how Urgoz himself looks; I don't care how nasty the enemies are as I don't consider that entertainment).

On the flipside, it is a piece of cake to make Shing Jea as difficult as Urgoz's Warren normally is.... relatively speaking. Just strip down naked, remove all attribute points and start wanding. Eventually it will become a matter of careful positioning to keep yourself alive. Lower level characters still do find things like the Captured Son quest to be awkward.... remember... (though I usually do it as a matter of course on the way to Zen Daijun).

I found EoTN to be very easy actually. Since NF and the AI fubar I simply stopped taking a warrior for anything other than a crippler, knockdown(er) or nothing more than someone to get in the mobs way and tie them up for a few seconds.
This held true in EoTN as I still found a warrior (AI) was useless for anything other than the above gimicks.

I tore through EoTN rarely loosing even a hench by doing the following:

Smiting monk (me) - mainly cause I was bored
SS Neco
MM Rit with Explosive Growth and Boon of Creation
Derv or Assassin with crippling or the fast attacks for keeping mobs dazed.

Henchies included Lina, Mhenlo, Eve and Zho.

With this, I was even able to rip through all the masters quests and dungeons using only H+H. Funniest yet, the builds I used weren't even what I would call, all that great... beware of oozes when relying on MM though. lol

Second time through it, I was playing a Paragon with DA and TNtF and am finding it even easier with the same above setup as the paragons' skills really help.

I talked to someone the other day who was having problems with NF and EoTN and after talking with them, they were still trying to get the warrior to "tank". I suggested to this person to take a dervish with a certain build so that the derv could attempt the job of "tank". Person whispered me 30 minutes later elated that they finally got through the mission they had been stuck on for a week. What I found funny, is that I made the suggestion only half thinking it through cause they were insisting that "someone" had to be able to tank.

Edit: Without giving a spoiler, I had to ditch Zho at the end for obvious reasons (obvious for those that have finished EoTN).

From what I've found it constitutes a little under 40%... and isn't time-efficient.

Much what I've been saying.
And it shouldn't. Skill might come into play if you're being paid to do something, but if you are voluntarily aiming for entertainment then skill shouldn't come into it.

It doesn't remove skill level, but it sure as hell might force you to use it.
And so freakin help me.... if I can bring entertainment back to the original Pokémon games by completing them upside-down or even by sound alone (yes... I did just that, though it took a while)... then I'm sure you can bring entertainment into Guild Wars by being creative with your play style and setting up your own obstacles. Nobody is forcing you to play it the way you're already good at.
And people certainly do NOT need more challenging content at the expense of those who are denied its experience.
Hard Mode should never have been assigned special titles or extra rewards for using it.... as the folks for whom Hard Mode was made would surely consider the extra difficulty its own reward. As it stands, it only demonstrates that there is extra content that is denied to a large portion of the population. This goes especially for the Elite areas.

It’s the knowledge of skills, areas, enemies and builds that separated the veterans from the casuals. The casual players may only have ever played one or two professions and have no idea about other classes and their skills. Also they may not have all of the chapters therefore only have limit amount of skills, hence the below par heroes skill bars which lead to poor performance overall. They’re also mostly relying on pugs and someone who know how, to get the thing done.

Compare to the Vets, who have mostly everything, strong set of skills, builds and experiences. Take SF ele for example, a couple of them can still get you pass most places in Eotn, sadly but it works. Not so lucky for those who only have Prophecies or Factions.

Now Eye of the North is aiming at lv20 players, but what kind of lv20 players are they aiming for? Those who do elite areas all the time, those who finished all of the missions in hard-mode? Or those average lv20 Joe, who may not even been to the ring of fire, unwaking water or gate of madness? Or lastly those who played as normal, played all or most of the professions, finished all 3 games never bother with hard-mode but have a good understanding of the game?

The first group will find Eotn as easy as taking candy from a baby, the second will get beaten up by that baby. While the third group will buy himself a new candy.

Now this I agree with 100%. HM is supposed to be optional, completely. However, with the added addition of LS, and the other "free" (as in non-money sink) titles, HM is NOT completely optional. HM should only have one difference; the mobs. All drops, rewards and titles should be the same in NM or HM.

Note: I don't even find HM "hard", I find it annoying, but certainly not "hard". I find it these days nothing more than a "fast track" for farming cash, drops and points. Even the old fall back argument of "challenge for reward" falls flat on HM vs NM arguments. It's easier to solo farm in HM than it is in NM even with the scatter-brained AI in HM (as in they scatter in AoEs).

I think this is also one of the reason's for GW 2.

Each previous game becomes easier if you have access to latter campaign's.
The new jobs add new dynamics not found in the pervious games (and new skills) always makes the previous one easier.

In reguards to Gw:en, there so many possilbiites of of professions and skill selection now, it is possible to find a combo can blaze through the conent.

You do have a point there.

The more potential that is added to the player but not to the environment.... the more easily the player will be able to just sweep through that environment. Later environments have been made with this in mind.... quite possibly just to bring up the environment to a level of difficulty comparable to that of the original environment without all the additional aid.

The thing is.... we all have our own particular "comfort levels" .... and mine happens to have been reached at around Raisu Palace with all Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall content level. Factions is still the campaign to which I compare all others... Eye of the North however has been made quite differently to that, even to the point of expecting reliance on PvE-only skills (which aren't something I'm fond of, for the most part) and those Consumables (which require cash investment).


While A-Net can't go back to change Prophecies to make it match all the new content added in the meanwhile.... it isn't entirely necessary that they try to amp up the difficulty all the time to try and keep it difficult. If a person wants to use skills from only the one campaign then there is no reason why they can't.

Differing experience and skill levels will lead to some people finding the game too easy and others too hard. Nothing hard to understand about that. But while people can "get creative" to make the game harder by doing stupid and rather pointless things like playing in underwear in hard mode with 3 people unpside down, instead of the way intended and designed, they can also "lern2play" to make the game easier.

As you learn more about the game and apply that knowledge GW gets boringly easy as you know what to expect and how to beat it. Or at least how prepare to beat or exploit most of whatever you may face. But outside of people with learning disabilities there are players who don't want to spend the effort to get better. They don't want to read skill descriptions, pay attention to what mobs and other players are doing or what's going on around them. They don't want to do basic research and experiments on game mechanics or build combinations. They can't be assed to improve but will whine all day about it as that takes less effort and thought. And it's as simple as that.

This is another thing people differ on. For many, playing a game of basketball, baseball, beach vollyball, golf, tetris, go-kart racing, gymnastics, or whatever, is more enjoyable if you're decent at it. That is, it's more fun to hit a baseball than it is to strikeout - regardless if voluntarily aiming for entertainment or getting paid to hammer homeruns. It's more fun to do that double back-hand-spring or triple twist in the air than to land upside down on your head and almost break your damn neck. And it's more fun to have a challenge - however slight - when playing a game like GW. If you're not thinking while playing a game it's just another idiot box.

I wouldn't say EotN expects you to "rely" on PvE-Only skills. I refuse to take most outright, since I like my current builds, and most seem useless at a low rank when you're first starting out in Eye of the North, by the time you finish the game and have accrued enough reputation for them, you don't need them any more...

The only ones I've used is Breath of the Great Dwarf, on a Mantra of Recovery Mesmer in the final mission against The Great Destroyer, Pain Inverter, because it's funny to watch people kill themselves, and Light of Deldrimor in Dungeons for the pittiful "treasures" and dumbass ghosts.

Too easy makes the game boring. Having to impose artificial restrictions on yourself to make a game challenging is fundamentally unsatisfying. It's really that simple. Similarly a game that's too difficult is frustrating. Both conditions are to be avoided. A game needs to be challenging and consequently satisfying without being impossibly frustrating. Skill level varies from player to player, but in my opinion the game SHOULD require one to elevate ones skill to really progress. I'd err on the side of "too hard" over "too easy" any day of the week.

IMO PvE is harder than PvP, somehow I just can't get the hang of playing PvE.

Fortunately for you and your connection/reflex speeds, every class can bring sooo much more to the table than interupting. If you're specifically looking for an interupter for the group, I would honestly recommend bringing those with the fastest and most reliable interupts in Guild Wars - heroes.

When I find something challenging in PvE (lol), it's not boring. If it's not challenging and is just tedious, it's boring.

I've used the same heroes from start to finish when I was going for Protector in each campaign. I think there were only about 4 instances that became an exception.

Firstly, I'm not talking about my skillbar, but the skillbars of everyone in my team of heroes and henchies. That said, yes I like to run into problems, to be forced to change my build. This is how I find PvE fun and difficult now. I like running into an area full of monsters that my team is going to have problems with, and I get immense satisfaction out of coming up with a balanced build that's going to do well against this group of monsters, this totally different group of monsters, etc. etc.

To each his own, of course. What's fun for you is not necessarily what's fun for me.

I find enjoyment in having the most effective build. I don't care how cool Hundred Blades looks, it's not worth taking up a slot.

...See two above.

I don't really find any amusement in the little things (dancing, acting annoyingly crazy, etc.) in Guild Wars anymore, given the fact that I've done it all to death. I'm more interested in braving huge dungeons and defeating massive monsters and beasts. But when you start to figure things out and find the most successful way to accomplish this and that, things start to get a little dull. Gimping yourself, like taking only 4 skills for each area, is not fun, *anyone* could tell you that (and if you were able to succeed in an area with so few skills proves how easy it is). People like to be brought challenges, not to make them themselves.

Pretty much what Vinraith said, actually. Damn, I wish I had seen his(her?) post before typing up that previous wall of text...

The only skill I've ever had used in my Hero/henchie party (they can't use PvE skills) was "You move like a Dwarf!", mainly because I like the fact that I can yell so loud that it makes them fall over. Boo yah. It's especially hilarious when used on the Stone Summit.

You like to talk about things being fun, but you fail to recognize people don't derive joy from the same things. If people aren't at a place where they can accomplish something (DoA, Urgoz, etc.), they're not being forced to participate. However, a decent team can easily take 1-2 worthless players along for the ride, so even those with minimal skill levels CAN participate if they so choose. >.>

I think this just about sums up my reply here:


That is your personal take on it; NOT objective fact.
From my perspective, the more I learn the game and get to understand what enemies spawn where.... the better I can plan for it and the more enjoyment I get out of the game.
i.e. The easier it becomes for me, the MORE fun I find it; not less.
.... which is precisely why I don't understand the desire for challenge. I prefer to make what is my life easier; not harder.
I take it you're not familiar with that outlook though, and I don't understand yours..... so... where to go from there?

Yes.... there are.
But there are also people who apply the effort and never get results. There are people who try to get better and cannot. There are people condemned by one means or other to ever be sub-par and accused of being worthless by other players.
Don't go thinking for a moment that they don't exist...

PvE Guild Wars is not a sport.
*Sighs*
I dislike sports. Not enough content. Might as well be playing Pong as Tennis.... and I get equally bored of both within a very short space of time. Difference is that tennis will tire me out while Pong won't. In either case you can see the entirety of the sport in under a minute. No replay-value.

Yes.... it can be more enjoyable if you're better at it..... same as anything else... but if anything that only proves my point. If something is proving difficult for me then I'm not going to find it anything like as fun... hence why it baffles me as to why people would want to look for it to be harder.
Still though... Sports? No. Not enough content. Certainly no creativity. Irrespective of differences in where a ball goes.... the basic mechanic is always the same, and whether with good players or bad players, the essence of the thing is still woefully simplistic. Another reason I don't participate in PvP: low-content repetition of a concept, expressed randomly.

Why are those people so incompetant, though?

It's a game, though. And sports are games. Same concepts that Taki stated apply.

Because not everyone is you. Some people like to feel that they've accomplished something, others just want to experience the content.

Yep, GW is just about right for newer and fairly experinced players, while they will find it hard its not anything that cant be done without a few trial and error runs. This is however will GW pve fails i think. Its a case of check what your up against add build a counter to each hero and yourself and run though it, all the enimies have the same build , act the same and are the same numbers in the same places, so trail and error or just resarce will always win so an experinced player will just breeze though it and is also why farming is so easy. Versitle mobs and builds would be a big win imo =D.

It was just an example.
I don't do Prot-Monking all that well either (though slightly better) because I'm not good at multi-tasking (viewing both the full goings on of the screen and all the health-bars at once).
I'm not even all that fond of playing Dervish because it requires pre-battle set-up.... unlike the Assassin style of whittling away all the gimmicks in sequence in the midst of battle...

I had another example.... but I just got momentarily distracted by that disgusting "Jokes Toolbar" advert at the top of the page with the topless hairy dude.... >_<;


When I find something challenging in PvE.... it generally involves my having to do it several times... which means repeatedly getting nowhere and subjecting myself to the same crap.... which equals boredom.
When it is not challenging... I get to experience it once and then get to something else... which prevents boredom setting in. I'm generally alright even in really long fights provided I don't have to actually repeat myself to get by.... as I HATE wasting time.

I've justified my side.... I still don't understand yours.


And? So did I once I got them (after getting Protector of Cantha and just before going for Ring of Fire islands in Tyria).... It made the game easier and cheered me up quite nicely. Allowed me to use a similar team in all locations rather than relying on different henchies in each region... I preferred the reliability over the potential risk factor of changing the group build and risking failure by going with what I didn't know.
Surely this makes sense..... right?


Strange.
I hate that lack of freedom. It makes me resentful of the game. I prefer to be able to beat the opposition with whatever builds I'm already using.... even if they're downright silly... I like it to be plausible at least. It makes the game more entertaining for me.
I mean.... granted.... if I take a liking to a different build that just happens to work better then I'll use it.... but generally I prefer for the build changing to be on my own terms. I don't like going into a new area and wiping out. It makes me want to beat the enemies with the very same group build just out of spite to show them that they're not so damned tough. To change at their whim is as much as letting them win to me.


I'm glad you see that...
..... though I wish I could understand HOW you found fun in challenge. It just seems so alien to me that I'm just left confused by it every time I encounter it.


I suppose I get you there.... but then I'd sooner have the more entertaining move over the more powerful move any day if both work.
Besides.... what is wrong with Hundred Blades? ... It is AoE isn't it? Sorta like Triple Chop with the axe... Works great with a Zealous Sword... doesn't it? Admittedly I'm not a fan of warriors and have only used it on Koss on the rare occasions I've used him..... but still. I admit inexperience there in any case.


Just for the record.... you're talking to someone who lay down in a snowdrift in Canada in the middle of winter in just his boxers....... for fun. Likewise you're talking to someone who occasionally hides behind post-boxes and jumps out to go "BOO!" loudly at passing strangers..... for fun.
Needless to say we're on totally different planes of amusement here... aren't we? Fair enough, I suppose.


Once you've hit one enemy with a sword, you've hit 'em all with a sword though. The only real difference is the way they look.... the way they sound.... the way they move... and their environment. It is putting them in the context of the Guild Wars world.... and that has NOTHING to do with difficulty of the game mechanics.

You see.... the game mechanics are limited. There is only so much you can do in the game that has been designed INTO the game.
On the other hand.... your own imagination is potentially limitless... and if you felt like it you could let the in-game world become your canvass... metaphorically speaking. If you'd rather just wait for the programmers to make more content FOR you then fair enough, but I'd imagine you only set yourself up for disappointment that way.
When you expect others to entertain you and you aren't willing to entertain yourself..... well... I guess that is just a sign of social dependancy.


The only PvE skills I use... oddly enough... are the profession-specific Sunspear and Kurzick skills. I rarely ever touch the new GW:EN ones (though I admit Mindbender looks slightly useful)... Critical Agility goes always on my sin now .... and Triple Shot / Never Rampage Alone on my Ranger.... but that is about it so far.
I just don't like that the GW:EN ones are so..... general. It lacks the personal touch.


I blame it on the genetics... and partially on the environment.
While it is a totally extreme example... you don't expect a blind person to be able to play Guild Wars as easily as anyone else.... do you?
Even with nothing so blatant I personally find it awkward to do some things other people find simple .... like the old Horns of the Ox > Falling Spider chain. The opponent always gets up before I can use Falling Spider on them, much to my annoyance... even if the second is flashing on the bar while the first is activating. I have yet to conquer this issue despite MANY attempts.


It is a game. It is entertainment. It is a demonstration of creativity to be taken in mentally.
Sports are exercise only. Anyone who is entertained by sports is necessarily simple-minded... for the simple reason that there is very little content. There is very little to stimulate the mind... Just bodily exercise.
The two aren't the same.
To me they are barely even comparable.


Accomplishment?
What does that even mean anyway? Everything we do in life becomes as nothing when we die anyway. Anything significant we might have done but didn't would be done by someone eventually anyway... and our own participation becomes meaningless.
Nobody can really "accomplish" anything of their life.... as the only person it will ever hold any real worth to is themselves.... and that is lost when they die.
*Sighs* .... Folks can think what they like, I suppose... but I'm not kidding myself. I don't really care for tallying up some "I beat so-and-so hence I'm hardcore" in my mind. I'd rather just see it, appreciate it for its own sake and move on.

Incidentally.... I apologise if I'm making this sound like some sort of philosophical argument now. It wasn't my intent.

Keep in mind I (99% of the time) only solo play

Ok Hard in PVE for me really depends on the character I use for my primary. I can struggle in some areas and shine in others. The best thing A-net has ever done for me is to add a custom skill set Henchmen. Remember how all the games got that much easier when we had access to heroes. I think FOW and Underworld are hard but the only reason is I can only take 3 Heroes with me.

With Gwen I am vary happy to see multi class spell usage by enemy. Wild patrol patterns. And some very powerful groups. I am displeased with the uber-ness of some bosses. (only a Couple bosses) Currently I am stuck in my storyline and probably will be for awhile till I have time to get a human group to kill a big worm.

To the OP about his his points about making the game harder for youreself: They expect A-net to crank up the difficulty because doing it themselves defeats the purpose of playing sompthing difficult. Such people want to be able to throw their best punches at enemies, pull out the best skills and realy get their brains working to overcome challenges. If they have to restrict their own ability to make things difficult for themselves they cant throw their best or use their brains to overcome challenges, as this would remove the restrictions imposed upon oneself and make the game too easy once more.

Its not so much about the game having to be difficult, but it has to be challenging for those people. There is a subtle diffrence.

Negatory.
Whether you use the henchies or I use the henchies, they're still the same henchies.... and if we're standing back and letting them do the work without interfering.... then effectively personal skill is utterly irrelevant.
Thus the experience of all doing so should in essence be exactly the same.... and I know from my own personal experience that ... NO... 90% of PvE cannot be done that way.


The average bird has the potential to fly. The average mouse does not. A mouse raised by birds might be taught exactly the same things.... and get it all in theory... but at the end of the day the mouse lacks the necessary components (wings, tail-feathers, etc) required to achieve powered flight.

And no.... playing Guild Wars indefinitely will not make it infinitely easy for me. I will NEVER EVER be able to waltz through Urgoz's Warren without taking damage. I will never be able to make Shiro explode into gibby pieces with a single hit (or indeed kill him at all with a single hit). I will never be able to vanquish the Domain of Fear in Hard Mode with an empty skill-bar.
There are limits in the game mechanics AND in my own body and computer hardware that cap just how easy the game can be "made" .... but there is NOTHING to cap just how difficult I could make it for myself.... irrespective of your opinion of running around Shing Jea naked...


That is the trouble with people these days. They expect entertainment to be provided FOR them on demand. Very little capacity for using what they have available in new and creative ways.
I'm not all that old... but I went a good 10 years without seeing a computer, without being able to watch television, and with nothing more to entertain me than trees and rocks. I managed to keep myself occupied quite contentedly though.... and I'm sure I'm all the better now for it, even if I've decided to take that to the virtual.
Heck... if Morrowind hadn't crashed and stopped working on my comp, I'd probably still be playing that now and continuously making new content for myself.... ^_^


... Except that being the entire point of this thread.... ¬_¬ ... Kinda implies that I DO recognise it.... no? I just don't understand HOW you find "fun" what I personally find "frustrating" and downright "anti-fun"... which is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

Nobody wants to feel useless. I get that much. Then again, I don't get why anyone would want to feel forced to participate either... other than their own desire to experience things.... in which case they're not "forced" at all.

Furthermore, there aren't that many good teams who would willingly take along one or two "worthless players" anyway. I've been in the entrance areas for both Urgoz's Warren and The Deep... and I've seen how insanely picky the groups are there. It is similar even with the Underworld.... No such luck there. I've given up even trying as it isn't time-efficient.
Then again... I will help people through Nahpui Quarter sometimes, since I like that mission. It is just one of those random things I do.... Wouldn't want to be a hypocrite afterall.

This game is way to easy. The elite missions can be crushed by a tank + monk + nuker build. The Doa can also be crushed. And with the above mentioned tank + monk + nuker build, most hm missions and areas can be beat.

I'll remind you of a little something:

How do you suppose the 55 monk farming build came about?
What about the more recent Earth Ele-Tank?
Take a look over at the Farming board.... and you might well see some rather creative solo-farming builds.

Now... you see... without people applying creativity and seeking to set their own challenges, such things would never have come about. I mean... aside from the potential for greater loot.... why do something solo when you have a party of 8 available?
I'll tell you why: Because it is a "challenge" that you can set for yourself... on your own terms. Clearly A-Net designed the majority of the game to be done with a party of 8.... but yet some parts can still be done with a smaller party and the application of a little creativity on the part of some individuals. The A-Net team certainly didn't intend for the 55 monk to come about.... but it has, and the entire community has benefitted from it to the point where it has become a standard farming procedure.

They might be doing it for the loot... but that is besides the point.
The point is that anyone has the potential to come up with new and creative ways to play the game. People these days are fickle enough that these new methods might not last unless they get some tangible reward for them..... but still... it can be done and it CAN provide entertainment.

For what it is worth.... I occasionally like soloing the "Siege of Tsumei Village" with my Assassin... and not even using a particularly strong build. It just gives me amusement... It isn't difficult, but then it isn't the way it was meant to be done (it is designed for a team of four characters half his level).
Then we already established that I find different things amusing to both.

I find more fun in the build-up and preparation of the fight and it's result, less in it's execution - at least not anymore. I used to greatly enjoy just watching the fights, but that was then.

I just like to know that the build I put together is a success, and is able to best any and every monster that I run into in said area/dungeon/whatever.

I forgot to mention that it was not only the same heroes but the exact same *builds*.

You hate the fact that you can configure the whole team to your liking?

That's precisely why most of the game is boring to me: I can fight through every if not most areas without having to think *twice* about my build. As long as a team has the bear essentials, they won't have a problem.

It's not configuring a build just to beat them. The team build has to be able to go against these guys, these guys, and this guy. I get quite a lot of satisfaction out of putting together a team that can go against so many different waves of baddies.

Din't take this so hostily, but quite honestly, why do you care about it? I'm having fun with the game and so are you.

It's an elite.

You see.... the game mechanics are limited. There is only so much you can do in the game that has been designed INTO the game.
On the other hand.... your own imagination is potentially limitless... and if you felt like it you could let the in-game world become your canvass... metaphorically speaking.

Yes, we're pretty bummed that ANet did not include GW:EN with Hard Mode at release. Once we get that, I think most of us will shut up. The fact that it was included at release, and that we STILL don't have it, is why we're upset.

There's no fun in solving riddles you made up yourself, solving puzzles you made originally, or telling yourself your own jokes. Sure, I could go play another game, but that's not something ANet wants.

Yet some people consider sports games, and some people have fun with those games.

No no, I was referring to these people who "give it their best, yet can't succeed" in Guild Wars. There are obviously people who have made it, so why can't they? The only that you can conclude is that they're *not* trying hard enough. That or stupidity.

Why is this thread full of people saying that they determine easy as been able to C-space a mob and leaving henchman to it?

If your finding it that easy, drop some frigging henchman and go with a few less team members. That way you can't come onto here and complain that PvE is too easy. You are effectively leeching off of Hero/Hench (well they do deserve it, stealing our drops AND making us buy them equipement!).

With properly set up builds teams of 6 can still plough through 8man area with few problems. Why do you think the Services thread here has sections full of Vanquishing/Guardian teams that can bring people, afk, through missions? Is vanquishing an entire droks run using 8 man easy? Not a frigging chance in hell, its challenging. Is it still doable with 7 man? Yup.

That or if you want something to truly challenge you and to keep you on the edge of your seat in constant fear of been wiped... how about dropping those 2 or 3 SF eles and the MM, getting rid of those PvE skills and going back to basics. Henchman only. The old school Tyrian way. If thats still too easy for you just go play something else that challenges your higher C-spacing skills and either stop lieing for the sake of your e-peen or use less hench.

Or just wait till hard mode. This is after all Normal Mode PvE. Personally i think they got it right, except Jotun who are just hideously overpowered.

The fact that they have to resort to such measures just to make it difficult pretty much says it is.

And agree with the Hard Mode thing. I think that once that it's released we will hopefully shut up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod Yadda Yadda Whatever

I frequently solo many many mobs with my amazing build. It used Protective Spirit and shit, dawg. I can clear lots of crap in the UW that normally takes like, I dunno dude, 8 people to kill or something. Snap son, kicking those other 7 was the best idea of my life. Making something I don't enjoy to begin with take longer is pretty awesome, naw meeeeeean?

Or play with the hands tied behind the back, take especially crappy builds or try to play GW with the head put in the arse... rather shitty suggestions.

No, a good game requires you to do something, not to gimp yourself.

GW aims more and more for the lowest common denominator, and I think that gimping mobs gimps players in the long run and only makes them worse, because everything works.

Putting reasonable challenges into the game and not easy peasy mobs till people suddenly hit the brick wall of a serious challenge is way to go.

The problem of difficulty levels of play has been brought up many times.

In the end they can all be simplified to this:

The game was built originally for a group to play, then modified for solo play.
The difficulty has been set so that a single player with Hero/Hench can complete the entire game(minus elite zones).
The Elite zones and Hard Mode were added for team play, while some still can manage to do these areas solo its built for team play.
The longer *most* people spend playing the higher there ability becomes and the easier this game is to play.


All that being said what I think many people really require is 3 modes of play.
Normal, as it is now, Hard with more intelligent AI and better rewards and a new Easy mode, allowing people to complete the game but with the removal of all gold/rare drops from monsters and chests.

While I do not expect this to come to pass, it is what many people require.

If you undertand the 'to each his own' concept then why all the garbage posts? People have explained why they prefer some sort of challenge and it's cool if you and others don't feel the same way. But you keep posting stupid shit over and over again about not understanding. If I had known you were a nutcase I wouldn't have wasted my time.

Because PvE is easy? I c-spaced through every campaign but Factions on my ele (cba beating unwaking waters yet). That means it isn't hard. I rarely deviate builds; I "nuke" (mind blast/rodgorts invoc), take two SH ele heroes with pd/leech sig, and monk and ele henchies. It wins.

lol? I don't even have a reply to that, other than "why not use it if it helps you win?" You could either A. use hench/hero builds that work and win PvE, or you could B. use hench/hero builds that don't work and post long QQing threads on guru and get laughed at because you didn't do A. Up to you, really.