The matter of "ease" or "difficulty" in PvE.

IMO PvE is harder than PvP, somehow I just can't get the hang of playing PvE.

Fortunately for you and your connection/reflex speeds, every class can bring sooo much more to the table than interupting. If you're specifically looking for an interupter for the group, I would honestly recommend bringing those with the fastest and most reliable interupts in Guild Wars - heroes.

When I find something challenging in PvE (lol), it's not boring. If it's not challenging and is just tedious, it's boring.

I've used the same heroes from start to finish when I was going for Protector in each campaign. I think there were only about 4 instances that became an exception.

Firstly, I'm not talking about my skillbar, but the skillbars of everyone in my team of heroes and henchies. That said, yes I like to run into problems, to be forced to change my build. This is how I find PvE fun and difficult now. I like running into an area full of monsters that my team is going to have problems with, and I get immense satisfaction out of coming up with a balanced build that's going to do well against this group of monsters, this totally different group of monsters, etc. etc.

To each his own, of course. What's fun for you is not necessarily what's fun for me.

I find enjoyment in having the most effective build. I don't care how cool Hundred Blades looks, it's not worth taking up a slot.

...See two above.

I don't really find any amusement in the little things (dancing, acting annoyingly crazy, etc.) in Guild Wars anymore, given the fact that I've done it all to death. I'm more interested in braving huge dungeons and defeating massive monsters and beasts. But when you start to figure things out and find the most successful way to accomplish this and that, things start to get a little dull. Gimping yourself, like taking only 4 skills for each area, is not fun, *anyone* could tell you that (and if you were able to succeed in an area with so few skills proves how easy it is). People like to be brought challenges, not to make them themselves.

Pretty much what Vinraith said, actually. Damn, I wish I had seen his(her?) post before typing up that previous wall of text...

The only skill I've ever had used in my Hero/henchie party (they can't use PvE skills) was "You move like a Dwarf!", mainly because I like the fact that I can yell so loud that it makes them fall over. Boo yah. It's especially hilarious when used on the Stone Summit.

You like to talk about things being fun, but you fail to recognize people don't derive joy from the same things. If people aren't at a place where they can accomplish something (DoA, Urgoz, etc.), they're not being forced to participate. However, a decent team can easily take 1-2 worthless players along for the ride, so even those with minimal skill levels CAN participate if they so choose. >.>

I think this just about sums up my reply here:


That is your personal take on it; NOT objective fact.
From my perspective, the more I learn the game and get to understand what enemies spawn where.... the better I can plan for it and the more enjoyment I get out of the game.
i.e. The easier it becomes for me, the MORE fun I find it; not less.
.... which is precisely why I don't understand the desire for challenge. I prefer to make what is my life easier; not harder.
I take it you're not familiar with that outlook though, and I don't understand yours..... so... where to go from there?

Yes.... there are.
But there are also people who apply the effort and never get results. There are people who try to get better and cannot. There are people condemned by one means or other to ever be sub-par and accused of being worthless by other players.
Don't go thinking for a moment that they don't exist...

PvE Guild Wars is not a sport.
*Sighs*
I dislike sports. Not enough content. Might as well be playing Pong as Tennis.... and I get equally bored of both within a very short space of time. Difference is that tennis will tire me out while Pong won't. In either case you can see the entirety of the sport in under a minute. No replay-value.

Yes.... it can be more enjoyable if you're better at it..... same as anything else... but if anything that only proves my point. If something is proving difficult for me then I'm not going to find it anything like as fun... hence why it baffles me as to why people would want to look for it to be harder.
Still though... Sports? No. Not enough content. Certainly no creativity. Irrespective of differences in where a ball goes.... the basic mechanic is always the same, and whether with good players or bad players, the essence of the thing is still woefully simplistic. Another reason I don't participate in PvP: low-content repetition of a concept, expressed randomly.

Why are those people so incompetant, though?

It's a game, though. And sports are games. Same concepts that Taki stated apply.

Because not everyone is you. Some people like to feel that they've accomplished something, others just want to experience the content.

Yep, GW is just about right for newer and fairly experinced players, while they will find it hard its not anything that cant be done without a few trial and error runs. This is however will GW pve fails i think. Its a case of check what your up against add build a counter to each hero and yourself and run though it, all the enimies have the same build , act the same and are the same numbers in the same places, so trail and error or just resarce will always win so an experinced player will just breeze though it and is also why farming is so easy. Versitle mobs and builds would be a big win imo =D.

It was just an example.
I don't do Prot-Monking all that well either (though slightly better) because I'm not good at multi-tasking (viewing both the full goings on of the screen and all the health-bars at once).
I'm not even all that fond of playing Dervish because it requires pre-battle set-up.... unlike the Assassin style of whittling away all the gimmicks in sequence in the midst of battle...

I had another example.... but I just got momentarily distracted by that disgusting "Jokes Toolbar" advert at the top of the page with the topless hairy dude.... >_<;


When I find something challenging in PvE.... it generally involves my having to do it several times... which means repeatedly getting nowhere and subjecting myself to the same crap.... which equals boredom.
When it is not challenging... I get to experience it once and then get to something else... which prevents boredom setting in. I'm generally alright even in really long fights provided I don't have to actually repeat myself to get by.... as I HATE wasting time.

I've justified my side.... I still don't understand yours.


And? So did I once I got them (after getting Protector of Cantha and just before going for Ring of Fire islands in Tyria).... It made the game easier and cheered me up quite nicely. Allowed me to use a similar team in all locations rather than relying on different henchies in each region... I preferred the reliability over the potential risk factor of changing the group build and risking failure by going with what I didn't know.
Surely this makes sense..... right?


Strange.
I hate that lack of freedom. It makes me resentful of the game. I prefer to be able to beat the opposition with whatever builds I'm already using.... even if they're downright silly... I like it to be plausible at least. It makes the game more entertaining for me.
I mean.... granted.... if I take a liking to a different build that just happens to work better then I'll use it.... but generally I prefer for the build changing to be on my own terms. I don't like going into a new area and wiping out. It makes me want to beat the enemies with the very same group build just out of spite to show them that they're not so damned tough. To change at their whim is as much as letting them win to me.


I'm glad you see that...
..... though I wish I could understand HOW you found fun in challenge. It just seems so alien to me that I'm just left confused by it every time I encounter it.


I suppose I get you there.... but then I'd sooner have the more entertaining move over the more powerful move any day if both work.
Besides.... what is wrong with Hundred Blades? ... It is AoE isn't it? Sorta like Triple Chop with the axe... Works great with a Zealous Sword... doesn't it? Admittedly I'm not a fan of warriors and have only used it on Koss on the rare occasions I've used him..... but still. I admit inexperience there in any case.


Just for the record.... you're talking to someone who lay down in a snowdrift in Canada in the middle of winter in just his boxers....... for fun. Likewise you're talking to someone who occasionally hides behind post-boxes and jumps out to go "BOO!" loudly at passing strangers..... for fun.
Needless to say we're on totally different planes of amusement here... aren't we? Fair enough, I suppose.


Once you've hit one enemy with a sword, you've hit 'em all with a sword though. The only real difference is the way they look.... the way they sound.... the way they move... and their environment. It is putting them in the context of the Guild Wars world.... and that has NOTHING to do with difficulty of the game mechanics.

You see.... the game mechanics are limited. There is only so much you can do in the game that has been designed INTO the game.
On the other hand.... your own imagination is potentially limitless... and if you felt like it you could let the in-game world become your canvass... metaphorically speaking. If you'd rather just wait for the programmers to make more content FOR you then fair enough, but I'd imagine you only set yourself up for disappointment that way.
When you expect others to entertain you and you aren't willing to entertain yourself..... well... I guess that is just a sign of social dependancy.


The only PvE skills I use... oddly enough... are the profession-specific Sunspear and Kurzick skills. I rarely ever touch the new GW:EN ones (though I admit Mindbender looks slightly useful)... Critical Agility goes always on my sin now .... and Triple Shot / Never Rampage Alone on my Ranger.... but that is about it so far.
I just don't like that the GW:EN ones are so..... general. It lacks the personal touch.


I blame it on the genetics... and partially on the environment.
While it is a totally extreme example... you don't expect a blind person to be able to play Guild Wars as easily as anyone else.... do you?
Even with nothing so blatant I personally find it awkward to do some things other people find simple .... like the old Horns of the Ox > Falling Spider chain. The opponent always gets up before I can use Falling Spider on them, much to my annoyance... even if the second is flashing on the bar while the first is activating. I have yet to conquer this issue despite MANY attempts.


It is a game. It is entertainment. It is a demonstration of creativity to be taken in mentally.
Sports are exercise only. Anyone who is entertained by sports is necessarily simple-minded... for the simple reason that there is very little content. There is very little to stimulate the mind... Just bodily exercise.
The two aren't the same.
To me they are barely even comparable.


Accomplishment?
What does that even mean anyway? Everything we do in life becomes as nothing when we die anyway. Anything significant we might have done but didn't would be done by someone eventually anyway... and our own participation becomes meaningless.
Nobody can really "accomplish" anything of their life.... as the only person it will ever hold any real worth to is themselves.... and that is lost when they die.
*Sighs* .... Folks can think what they like, I suppose... but I'm not kidding myself. I don't really care for tallying up some "I beat so-and-so hence I'm hardcore" in my mind. I'd rather just see it, appreciate it for its own sake and move on.

Incidentally.... I apologise if I'm making this sound like some sort of philosophical argument now. It wasn't my intent.

Keep in mind I (99% of the time) only solo play

Ok Hard in PVE for me really depends on the character I use for my primary. I can struggle in some areas and shine in others. The best thing A-net has ever done for me is to add a custom skill set Henchmen. Remember how all the games got that much easier when we had access to heroes. I think FOW and Underworld are hard but the only reason is I can only take 3 Heroes with me.

With Gwen I am vary happy to see multi class spell usage by enemy. Wild patrol patterns. And some very powerful groups. I am displeased with the uber-ness of some bosses. (only a Couple bosses) Currently I am stuck in my storyline and probably will be for awhile till I have time to get a human group to kill a big worm.

To the OP about his his points about making the game harder for youreself: They expect A-net to crank up the difficulty because doing it themselves defeats the purpose of playing sompthing difficult. Such people want to be able to throw their best punches at enemies, pull out the best skills and realy get their brains working to overcome challenges. If they have to restrict their own ability to make things difficult for themselves they cant throw their best or use their brains to overcome challenges, as this would remove the restrictions imposed upon oneself and make the game too easy once more.

Its not so much about the game having to be difficult, but it has to be challenging for those people. There is a subtle diffrence.

Negatory.
Whether you use the henchies or I use the henchies, they're still the same henchies.... and if we're standing back and letting them do the work without interfering.... then effectively personal skill is utterly irrelevant.
Thus the experience of all doing so should in essence be exactly the same.... and I know from my own personal experience that ... NO... 90% of PvE cannot be done that way.


The average bird has the potential to fly. The average mouse does not. A mouse raised by birds might be taught exactly the same things.... and get it all in theory... but at the end of the day the mouse lacks the necessary components (wings, tail-feathers, etc) required to achieve powered flight.

And no.... playing Guild Wars indefinitely will not make it infinitely easy for me. I will NEVER EVER be able to waltz through Urgoz's Warren without taking damage. I will never be able to make Shiro explode into gibby pieces with a single hit (or indeed kill him at all with a single hit). I will never be able to vanquish the Domain of Fear in Hard Mode with an empty skill-bar.
There are limits in the game mechanics AND in my own body and computer hardware that cap just how easy the game can be "made" .... but there is NOTHING to cap just how difficult I could make it for myself.... irrespective of your opinion of running around Shing Jea naked...


That is the trouble with people these days. They expect entertainment to be provided FOR them on demand. Very little capacity for using what they have available in new and creative ways.
I'm not all that old... but I went a good 10 years without seeing a computer, without being able to watch television, and with nothing more to entertain me than trees and rocks. I managed to keep myself occupied quite contentedly though.... and I'm sure I'm all the better now for it, even if I've decided to take that to the virtual.
Heck... if Morrowind hadn't crashed and stopped working on my comp, I'd probably still be playing that now and continuously making new content for myself.... ^_^


... Except that being the entire point of this thread.... ¬_¬ ... Kinda implies that I DO recognise it.... no? I just don't understand HOW you find "fun" what I personally find "frustrating" and downright "anti-fun"... which is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

Nobody wants to feel useless. I get that much. Then again, I don't get why anyone would want to feel forced to participate either... other than their own desire to experience things.... in which case they're not "forced" at all.

Furthermore, there aren't that many good teams who would willingly take along one or two "worthless players" anyway. I've been in the entrance areas for both Urgoz's Warren and The Deep... and I've seen how insanely picky the groups are there. It is similar even with the Underworld.... No such luck there. I've given up even trying as it isn't time-efficient.
Then again... I will help people through Nahpui Quarter sometimes, since I like that mission. It is just one of those random things I do.... Wouldn't want to be a hypocrite afterall.

This game is way to easy. The elite missions can be crushed by a tank + monk + nuker build. The Doa can also be crushed. And with the above mentioned tank + monk + nuker build, most hm missions and areas can be beat.

I'll remind you of a little something:

How do you suppose the 55 monk farming build came about?
What about the more recent Earth Ele-Tank?
Take a look over at the Farming board.... and you might well see some rather creative solo-farming builds.

Now... you see... without people applying creativity and seeking to set their own challenges, such things would never have come about. I mean... aside from the potential for greater loot.... why do something solo when you have a party of 8 available?
I'll tell you why: Because it is a "challenge" that you can set for yourself... on your own terms. Clearly A-Net designed the majority of the game to be done with a party of 8.... but yet some parts can still be done with a smaller party and the application of a little creativity on the part of some individuals. The A-Net team certainly didn't intend for the 55 monk to come about.... but it has, and the entire community has benefitted from it to the point where it has become a standard farming procedure.

They might be doing it for the loot... but that is besides the point.
The point is that anyone has the potential to come up with new and creative ways to play the game. People these days are fickle enough that these new methods might not last unless they get some tangible reward for them..... but still... it can be done and it CAN provide entertainment.

For what it is worth.... I occasionally like soloing the "Siege of Tsumei Village" with my Assassin... and not even using a particularly strong build. It just gives me amusement... It isn't difficult, but then it isn't the way it was meant to be done (it is designed for a team of four characters half his level).
Then we already established that I find different things amusing to both.

I find more fun in the build-up and preparation of the fight and it's result, less in it's execution - at least not anymore. I used to greatly enjoy just watching the fights, but that was then.

I just like to know that the build I put together is a success, and is able to best any and every monster that I run into in said area/dungeon/whatever.

I forgot to mention that it was not only the same heroes but the exact same *builds*.

You hate the fact that you can configure the whole team to your liking?

That's precisely why most of the game is boring to me: I can fight through every if not most areas without having to think *twice* about my build. As long as a team has the bear essentials, they won't have a problem.

It's not configuring a build just to beat them. The team build has to be able to go against these guys, these guys, and this guy. I get quite a lot of satisfaction out of putting together a team that can go against so many different waves of baddies.

Din't take this so hostily, but quite honestly, why do you care about it? I'm having fun with the game and so are you.

It's an elite.

You see.... the game mechanics are limited. There is only so much you can do in the game that has been designed INTO the game.
On the other hand.... your own imagination is potentially limitless... and if you felt like it you could let the in-game world become your canvass... metaphorically speaking.

Yes, we're pretty bummed that ANet did not include GW:EN with Hard Mode at release. Once we get that, I think most of us will shut up. The fact that it was included at release, and that we STILL don't have it, is why we're upset.

There's no fun in solving riddles you made up yourself, solving puzzles you made originally, or telling yourself your own jokes. Sure, I could go play another game, but that's not something ANet wants.

Yet some people consider sports games, and some people have fun with those games.

No no, I was referring to these people who "give it their best, yet can't succeed" in Guild Wars. There are obviously people who have made it, so why can't they? The only that you can conclude is that they're *not* trying hard enough. That or stupidity.

Why is this thread full of people saying that they determine easy as been able to C-space a mob and leaving henchman to it?

If your finding it that easy, drop some frigging henchman and go with a few less team members. That way you can't come onto here and complain that PvE is too easy. You are effectively leeching off of Hero/Hench (well they do deserve it, stealing our drops AND making us buy them equipement!).

With properly set up builds teams of 6 can still plough through 8man area with few problems. Why do you think the Services thread here has sections full of Vanquishing/Guardian teams that can bring people, afk, through missions? Is vanquishing an entire droks run using 8 man easy? Not a frigging chance in hell, its challenging. Is it still doable with 7 man? Yup.

That or if you want something to truly challenge you and to keep you on the edge of your seat in constant fear of been wiped... how about dropping those 2 or 3 SF eles and the MM, getting rid of those PvE skills and going back to basics. Henchman only. The old school Tyrian way. If thats still too easy for you just go play something else that challenges your higher C-spacing skills and either stop lieing for the sake of your e-peen or use less hench.

Or just wait till hard mode. This is after all Normal Mode PvE. Personally i think they got it right, except Jotun who are just hideously overpowered.

The fact that they have to resort to such measures just to make it difficult pretty much says it is.

And agree with the Hard Mode thing. I think that once that it's released we will hopefully shut up.

Or play with the hands tied behind the back, take especially crappy builds or try to play GW with the head put in the arse... rather shitty suggestions.

No, a good game requires you to do something, not to gimp yourself.

GW aims more and more for the lowest common denominator, and I think that gimping mobs gimps players in the long run and only makes them worse, because everything works.

Putting reasonable challenges into the game and not easy peasy mobs till people suddenly hit the brick wall of a serious challenge is way to go.

The problem of difficulty levels of play has been brought up many times.

In the end they can all be simplified to this:

The game was built originally for a group to play, then modified for solo play.
The difficulty has been set so that a single player with Hero/Hench can complete the entire game(minus elite zones).
The Elite zones and Hard Mode were added for team play, while some still can manage to do these areas solo its built for team play.
The longer *most* people spend playing the higher there ability becomes and the easier this game is to play.


All that being said what I think many people really require is 3 modes of play.
Normal, as it is now, Hard with more intelligent AI and better rewards and a new Easy mode, allowing people to complete the game but with the removal of all gold/rare drops from monsters and chests.

While I do not expect this to come to pass, it is what many people require.

If you undertand the 'to each his own' concept then why all the garbage posts? People have explained why they prefer some sort of challenge and it's cool if you and others don't feel the same way. But you keep posting stupid shit over and over again about not understanding. If I had known you were a nutcase I wouldn't have wasted my time.

Because PvE is easy? I c-spaced through every campaign but Factions on my ele (cba beating unwaking waters yet). That means it isn't hard. I rarely deviate builds; I "nuke" (mind blast/rodgorts invoc), take two SH ele heroes with pd/leech sig, and monk and ele henchies. It wins.

lol? I don't even have a reply to that, other than "why not use it if it helps you win?" You could either A. use hench/hero builds that work and win PvE, or you could B. use hench/hero builds that don't work and post long QQing threads on guru and get laughed at because you didn't do A. Up to you, really.