Synergizing Hero Builds?

Washi

Washi

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sab
Tbh I expected anyone who can maintain SY! to be using Rac-way, his builds make much better use of the +100AL than the Necs do. I just added some variations you might want to try out just in case you're sticking with 3-Necs as a physical. Not really. The harder the area, the better necros are. For NM or regular HM paras own, but try doin HM Duncan/shards/ooze etc. with them. I tried doin hard dungeons with paras but the team lacked defence (And I have 5sec SY). And I had little to no problems with necros. Restorer is such a potent healer you just cant compare him to anything heroes can run.

Bront

Bront

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Honored Order of Light

W/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Washi
Not really. The harder the area, the better necros are. For NM or regular HM paras own, but try doin HM Duncan/shards/ooze etc. with them. I tried doin hard dungeons with paras but the team lacked defence (And I have 5sec SY). And I had little to no problems with necros. Restorer is such a potent healer you just cant compare him to anything heroes can run. Can you swap out Rac's healer Dervish for the Restorer Necro?

Washi

Washi

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bront
Can you swap out Rac's healer Dervish for the Restorer Necro? Not really. Rac's paragons are so effective because of order of pain and dark fury. Without D/N the team no londer provides enough offense to justify not bringing more necros :P

Bront

Bront

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Honored Order of Light

W/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Washi
Not really. Rac's paragons are so effective because of order of pain and dark fury. Without D/N the team no londer provides enough offense to justify not bringing more necros :P Maybe an N/RT healer/Orders/DF hybred?

I haven't fooled around with Rac's build much, since my Paragon isn't even 20th level yet, and I haven't gotten my faction level up high enough to even get SY!.

Let's see...

[build name="Para Resto N/RT" prof=N/RT Bloo=10+1+1 Sou=10+1 res=11][Weapon of Remedy][Dark Fury][Order of Pain][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective was Kaolai][Life][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

Might work...

Washi

Washi

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bront
Maybe an N/RT healer/Orders/DF hybred?

I haven't fooled around with Rac's build much, since my Paragon isn't even 20th level yet, and I haven't gotten my faction level up high enough to even get SY!.

Let's see...

[build name="Para Resto N/RT" prof=N/RT Bloo=10+1+1 Sou=10+1 res=11][Weapon of Remedy][Dark Fury][Order of Pain][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective was Kaolai][Life][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

Might work... He will be out of energy in seconds. OOP and DF are ment to be spammed and are both 10e. Besides there is no reason to mix the builds. Use paras when you don't need extra defense and use necros for very hard areas, that's what I do at least.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belonah15
SabWay is definitely the better one to use for most areas and for most player classes. There are a few places where it falls down like the Griffons with their [Spell breaker] in Snake Dance. This is why I sometimes replace Sab's SS N/Rt or the MM with a mesmer hero, for interrupts and utility skills.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...10&postcount=3

[[Signet of Disenchantment] > [[Spell Breaker]

Bront

Bront

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Honored Order of Light

W/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Washi
He will be out of energy in seconds. OOP and DF are ment to be spammed and are both 10e. Besides there is no reason to mix the builds. Use paras when you don't need extra defense and use necros for very hard areas, that's what I do at least. Hey, it was worth a try.

Like I said, I've no experience with the Paragon build.

Mickey

Mickey

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Eternal Insight

D/

It recently came to my attention that [skill]Signet of Ghostly might[/skill] works on minions.

Minion bomber material?

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey
It recently came to my attention that [skill]Signet of Ghostly might[/skill] works on minions.

Minion bomber material? Interesting find Mickey. There's no guarantee it'll be cast on a Death Nova'd Minion, but worth experimenting nonetheless.

Bront

Bront

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Honored Order of Light

W/Me

Yeah, that's a good thing to try.

Problem is, it's communing, so it requires a third spec, and it removes Jagged Bones (Unless you put it on the Healer Necro).

Might be worth trying though.

Hrm... on the Healer necro might work...

Mickey

Mickey

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Eternal Insight

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bront
Yeah, that's a good thing to try.

Problem is, it's communing, so it requires a third spec, and it removes Jagged Bones (Unless you put it on the Healer Necro).

Might be worth trying though.

Hrm... on the Healer necro might work... Healer Necro would have it, yes. Gotta try it out.

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

didnt we talk about this like 2 pages ago? i believe we did.

Mickey

Mickey

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Eternal Insight

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
didnt we talk about this like 2 pages ago? i believe we did. If you managed to take your dear sweet time and look two pages ago, you would see we didn't.

Cathode_Reborn

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

This is the setup I've been usin for a while:

my bar:

[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]Weaken Armor[/skill][skill]Mark of Pain[/skill][skill]Enfeebling Blood[/skill][skill]Necrosis[/skill][skill]"Finish Him!"[/skill][skill]Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support[/skill] optional

Last skill changes alot. Was thinking about Barbs but targets often die too fast to be useful. Still great against bosses though


morg:

[skill]Song of Restoration[/skill][skill]Aria of Restoration[/skill][skill]Ballad of Restoration[/skill][skill]Signet of Synergy[/skill][skill]Spear of Lightning[/skill][skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]Spear of Redemption[/skill][skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill]


hayda:

[skill]Song of Restoration[/skill][skill]Aria of Restoration[/skill][skill]Energizing Chorus[/skill][skill]Power Return[/skill][skill]Spear of Lightning[/skill][skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]Spear of Redemption[/skill][skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill]


Power Return is a nice cheap spammable interrupt. Spear of Redemption is decent spammable damage.

Dual SoR since I'm not really worried about hexes/conditions. The only real threat usually is damage coming from ele's. If I have to though I'll just slap Remove Hex on one of them or the MM.


MM:

[skill]Jagged Bones[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Vampiric Horror[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Death Nova[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Optional[/skill]

Not a fan of Bone Minions....they're too flimsy.

Besides the healing they provide, paragons are a good way to trigger MoP. I usually like using MM's in any place they work - they're a really good form of defense and help trigger stuff like MoP/Barbs. Even without those, 10 minions have a pretty decent dps. Assassin's Promise recharges everything so you'll be doing tons of damage with the PvE skills and MoP spam.

I haven't really decided which hero to use for areas without corpses so I just get lazy and add some sort of healer I've been messing with an Enraged Lunge bm ranger though - their dps is somewhat nice.

xDusT II

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Melbourne

What I generally run with:

Generally, any combination of these should be able to tackle most HM areas with minor modifications to suit the region your going into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me in other thread
Any combination of these templates should work with almost any other player class, most of the skills, numbers and calculations were taken off the top of my head so there might be some mistakes.

Paragon Hero 1
Spear Mastery: 12+1+1
Command: 9+1
Leadership 9+1
[Cruel Spear][Vicious Attack]["Go for the Eyes!"]["Never Surrender!"][Anthem of Flame][Anthem of Envy][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return]

Paragon Hero 2
Spear Mastery: 10+1+1
Motivation: 9+1
Leadership: 9+1
Tactics: 8
[Spear of Lightning][Blazing Spear]["Watch Yourself!"][Song of Restoration][Ballad of Restoration]["Shield's Up!"][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return.]

["Shield's Up!"] Can be replaced with [Anthem of Flame] when not needed.

Alternative Paragon 2
Spear Mastery: 10+1+1
Leadership: 9+1
Motivation: 7+1
Healing Prayers: 10
[Spear of Lightning][Blazing Spear]["Go for the eyes!"][Light of Deliverance][Mending Refrain][Anthem of Flame][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return]

Necromancer Hero
12+1+1 Curses
12+1 Soul Reaping
3 Restoration
[Enfeebling Blood][Reckless Haste][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Foul Feast][Rip Enchantment][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet]

In condition heavy areas (eg. Mandragor heavy areas in EoTN), consider replacing [foul feast] for [pure was li ming]. The Hero will constantly use both to remove cracked armour anyway.

Ritualist Hero
Channelling: 12+1+1
Restoration: 12+1
Spawning Power: 3+1
[Mend body and Soul][Spirit Light][Splinter Weapon][Ancestor's Rage][Offering of spirit][Protective was Kaolai][life][Death Pact Signet]

In areas where your party displacement will be small, take [Recuperation] over [Life] (eg. Eternal Grove Mission)


The LoD Paragon provides a maximum of 10.36hps, however this requires mending refrain to be maintained on all party members, and refreshed by using anthem of flame. I'd use the LoD variation for areas where fighting will go on for extended periods of time, with little or no time spent moving from mob to mob (eg. Vizunah Square)
The SoR + Ballad Paragon provides a maximum of 6.81hps, it requires no micro management and also has an open secondary profession. "Watch Yourself!" provides small damage reductions as well.
The Ritualist provides 4.9hps from Protective was Kaoli alone, without double pumping. Life is somewhat harder to calculate, but in the best possible scenario it will provide 5.22hps.

+Armour insignia's on heroes are generally better then +Health, as armour reduction is percentage based and monsters in PvE tend to do do a large amount of base damage, increasing the amount of damage reduced by the armour.

FyrFytr998

FyrFytr998

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Connecticut USA

[ITPR]

W/

So is anyone gonna alter the MM to see if Dwayna's Sorrow does in fact work better?

elevenfifty5

elevenfifty5

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2006

The Favored

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by FyrFytr998
So is anyone gonna alter the MM to see if Dwayna's Sorrow does in fact work better? Theres a few threads.

Paul Dawg

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2008

House of Myrthe (HoMe)

W/

This is going to sound like heresy, but hear me out--and if you still think what I say is nonsense at the end, please explain why!

Now that heroes are supposedly able to use [dwayna's sorrow] more intelligently, why not take advantage of this in Sabway? Instead of the healer N/Rt, how about an N/Mo like this:

[signet of lost souls]
[healer's boon]
[dwayna's kiss]
[dwayna's sorrow]
[ethereal light]/[words of comfort]
[mend condition]/[mending touch]
[holy veil]

And for the eighth spot you can put in pretty much whatever you want. What's my logic? Everyone is talking about adding [dwayna's sorrow] to the MM-bomber, but that doesn't make too much sense, because [dwayna's sorrow] is a healing spell, and the MM-bomber in Sabway has 9 points in prot. That leaves only 3 maximum for healing, which gives you a paltry 14 hp boost every time a minion dies.

But if you make another N/Mo instead of a second N/Rt (12 soul reaping, 12 healing), and have THAT guy do [dwayna's sorrow], all of a sudden it becomes a serious aid in combat. Energy management shouldn't be a problem with 12 soul reaping.

Is this a good idea?

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Yeah, I noticed the "Like Tyla" bit.

They don't use it to mitigate damage until they get even the smallest of damage delt. Hence why they also use it on minions. Not in a fight.

Don't get me wrong, it still works, but they're still bad at it. That's why alot of people micromanage it. I have never micro manage the hero's PS. If I need to, then I would rather not have it on my MM.

Do the others find the MM's usage of PS to be poor?

bam23

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

They usually use PS AFTER it would've been useful.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by bam23
They usually use PS AFTER it would've been useful. Yes but I dont expect the hero to be able to anticipate a spike. Most PUG monks dont either.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Micro PS on someone before they get hit by BIG DOMAGE.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Micro PS on someone before they get hit by BIG DOMAGE. Like I said, one reason why people like Sabway is you dont need to micro it.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Yeah, becasue clicking ONE skill, or even by clicking a button on your keyboard is so hard.
Sabway is best for minimal micro.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Yeah, becasue clicking ONE skill, or even by clicking a button on your keyboard is so hard.
Sabway is best for minimal micro. Except this involves watching who the monster would target next, quickly cast PS before he is attacked while kiting/attacking with your main character at the same time. Can be done but I wouldn't call it a minimal micro.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

You should be concentrating on the field anyway.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
You should be concentrating on the field anyway. I am, and having heroes that I dont need to micro helps me to do that even better.

Paul Dawg

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2008

House of Myrthe (HoMe)

W/

I find that he uses Aegis very nicely, and Protective Spirit not so nicely. In most areas, you don't really need his Protective Spirit, but it's still quite handy to have on his bar so that you can manual it if you need it before/during hugely dangerous battles. Otherwise, he seems to use it kinda randomly.

A hero MM-bomber who blows stuff up left and right and also deals out Aegis and also has Protective Spirit on his bar in case you need it--all in all, that's pretty brilliant. Wish I had thought of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
My question to you all you Sabway users is: Do you find the Sab MM to be using Protective Spirit well or not?

Introverted Dimensions

Introverted Dimensions

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

R/

my mm uses ps pretty nicely i feel although i don't really have him run it anymore since i myself am a monk and go hybrid.

PyrAnkh

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

Lowbird Academy [LoW]

W/

No, i took prot spirit out pretty much right away. Aegis is fire and forget passive defense so thats okay.

Shaz

Shaz

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS]

To answer DarkSpirit - Does the MM (or any hero) use PS correctly? No.
But PS work on the MM because energy is not a problem, so he can spam it all he want. Put it on a monk primary and it will drain their energy usually. Basically, heroes do not use PS correctly, but it's fine on a necro because they have SR.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaz
To answer DarkSpirit - Does the MM (or any hero) use PS correctly? No.
But PS work on the MM because energy is not a problem, so he can spam it all he want. Put it on a monk primary and it will drain their energy usually. Basically, heroes do not use PS correctly, but it's fine on a necro because they have SR. I agree with your analysis. For groups without a MM, I prefer to bring shielding hands instead of PS.

Washi

Washi

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2007

I never use PS on my bomber. Simply cause I don't need it. I always pack him with [skill]power drain[/skill] and [skill]leech signet[/skill] cause that's the thing heroes can actually do.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Actually, Blood Mastery at 16 + Spoil Victor + death magic 0 + bone minions + prot spirit = EPIC WINZ LOL!!1

distilledwill

distilledwill

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Blighty

The Legion of the Blue Blade

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaz
To answer DarkSpirit - Does the MM (or any hero) use PS correctly? No.
But PS work on the MM because energy is not a problem, so he can spam it all he want. Put it on a monk primary and it will drain their energy usually. Basically, heroes do not use PS correctly, but it's fine on a necro because they have SR. Although ive now replaced all of the prot skills on my bomber with [[Dwayna's Sorrow], [[Infuse Condition] and [[Foul Feast], I did used to like having prot spirit there for when mobs with powerful spells such as the HM Ruby Djinns pop up. Id prot myself up, get some regen going then run in and take the first blast, allowing my heroes to come in afterwards and clear up the mess.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaz
To answer DarkSpirit - Does the MM (or any hero) use PS correctly? No.
But PS work on the MM because energy is not a problem, so he can spam it all he want. Put it on a monk primary and it will drain their energy usually. Basically, heroes do not use PS correctly, but it's fine on a necro because they have SR.
What's more: You simply need to have PS in a lot of HM zones. That means someone has to be a monk secondary. It can't be the healer, since that needs the /Rt secondary, so it comes down the the curser or the MB. The MB seems a better choice.

Is it clunky? Heck, yes. A MB/half-assed-prot-monk hybrid is pretty awkward. But it's slightly less clunky than a curses/half-assed-prot-monk hybrid, and no PS at all isn't an option.

Now, as soon as you get an 8-person team (or even a 6-person team), the first thing to do is unpack that ugly hybrid-by-necessity and do something like this to make the MB bar more internally synergized:
Quote:
Originally Posted by distilledwill
Although ive now replaced all of the prot skills on my bomber with [[Dwayna's Sorrow], [[Infuse Condition] and [[Foul Feast]
A slightly more interesting question is whether, after the recent skill changes and AI updates, Dwayna's Sorrow+ Infuse Condition+Foul Feast on the MB is now adequate to replace VwK (which I've always disliked the AI for) and MBS/WoR and and possibly free up the healer to become a N/Mo or Mo/X healer/prot hybrid. But then where to put splinter?...

distilledwill

distilledwill

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Blighty

The Legion of the Blue Blade

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
A slightly more interesting question is whether, after the recent skill changes and AI updates, Dwayna's Sorrow+ Infuse Condition+Foul Feast on the MB is now adequate to replace VwK (which I've always disliked the AI for) and MBS/WoR and and possibly free up the healer to become a N/Mo or Mo/X healer/prot hybrid. But then where to put splinter?... I assume you mean PwK. I have to say, I still like the N/Rt channelling/resto hybrid. The healing from Dwayna's is not substantial, so I wouldnt permanently ditch the hero altogether.

Out of the trio, however, they are the most dispensible. I have a habit of replacing them with a signet mesmer or cruel spear para when the situation arises.

Washi

Washi

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
What's more: You simply need to have PS in a lot of HM zones /.../ and no PS at all isn't an option. I have a legendary vanquisher and I didn't use PS. There is a skill called [skill]save yourselves[/skill] that makes many prots redundant.