PvP and PvE are incompatable?

The entire reason for them being introduced was so that Guildwars wouldn't become the grindfest that other mmo's out there became for a PvE player to get into competitive PvP. Other mmo's are about item grind and time invested in your character > skill. GW wanted to reverse this and the introduction of PvP only characters was a perfect idea. It was ment to put everyone at the same competitive level, with the same equipment, same armor, same attributes, same skills. Sadly there were items and things available in PvE that the PvP characters didnt have access too.
While the truth is a good thing at times, its aparent your version of the truth is blatantly false and misleading....
Aparently you arent good at comprehending. This isnt the first thread sayign that PvE and PvP arent compatible in one way or the other. Avarre was correct.

No your just missing the obvious truth. Reread even your own reply cause its quite funny you showed the reason but yet you are still failing to understand the truth. But I'll be nice to bold it for you from you own quote Sadly there were items and things available in PvE that the PvP characters didnt have access too And thus the beginnings of the seperation and INCOMPATIBILITES between PvP and PvE.
So please tell me where I'm wrong. Come on tell me. But the truth is I'm right.

I'd like to see your research on that. I could easily claim the following:

"Hate to play devils advocate, but most of the people who want powerful titles are n00bs who fail too much to win without the overpowered PvE skills and auras. There is no mission that cannot be defeated without titles or title-related benefits. Good players can still easily get to level 20, get max armor, get a REAL build (not the BS grind pve skills builds), and run it start to finish with nothing but heroes/henchmen."

See what I did there?

Personally, I'm one of the people complaining about grind, and I'd be quite happy to see titles removed entirely and title-based skills rebalanced (including nerfing as required - serious nerfing in some cases. "You Move Like A Dwarf" vs Gale, discuss) to act as normal skills or even removed entirely. And I don't think I'm unique among the people who don't like the grind.

Why is it bad that they're all different? People would bitch and complain if they were entirely too much alike. The variety is nice. Some people enjoy RA while they don't enjoy TA. Some people don't care to GvG, but enjoy HA. If PvP was all too much alike, I don't think as many people would do it.

And whining about whiners? Look at the pot calling the kettle black...

Seriously.
This issue has been talked about so much. imo any new threads about PvP vs PvE or incompatibily etc. should just be closed. with a link to one of the other 100 threads about it for them to go post on.

When I made the post I felt that would be generally less favored, and figured if one of those discussions were more recent then I felt they were that one of the mods would of done just that. There really has been a lot of these discussions, I just wanted to put in my argument now that I felt compelled too and I felt that it was one that wasn't expressed very often. (which is probably evident from the way I worded the first post I have been quite thrilled about how many people agree with me) Though to be honest, If I started writing the post after the thread "what brought me to gw....." I would've just made it a reply there.

That argument is mostly right. Its what I love about Guild Wars. But since the grind is minimal in Guild Wars why should I even have to put up with a little? Why should I have to accept the fact that a person who has opened more chests has better chance at retaining the lockpicks? And while that is a fairly small detail that doesn't bother me so much to not like Guild Wars, these are things that have been added to the game, and a direction that they look to continue to do. Guild Wars with these "enhancements" is a game I think I would have fun in, but it would be because its the game closest to what I want and not the game that I want. Its a direction that damages the original quality of the game.

PvE only skills add fun skills to the game, so why are they PvE only? Its either because of a philosophy that PvP balanced skills are less fun than overpowered PvE skills in PvE or that skills tied to faction titles are a fun mechanic. Both are wrong.

Separating the entire game types of PvE and PvP are for the same reason they are separated the skills, so they can change the way they work. And its a change that isn't beneficial or necessary.

That's pretty much my attitude as well. I didn't like the improved chance of not breaking items on salvage through a title when that was introduced, but it was still a relatively unintrusive benefit... then. However, the titles have been made more and more important to the gameplay as time passes, and as it does I see the original "spend your time having fun rather than preparing to have fun" ideal slip further and further away.

Explain how;

leads to;

Considering PvP players prior to the addition of PvP characters had to make PvE characters anyway, and still did in order to have the most advantage. All you've done is give the explanation of why most top-tier PvP players played PvE extensively in order to max their characters out. That sounds like keeping them together to me.

The largest divide between the two was created when Anet began creating mobs with radically increased stats, numbers and skills in order to create difficulty. By doing this, the playstyle of PvE and PvP became far more differentiated compared to areas where the mobs were leveled and designed more like players were. As a result, builds, tactics, skills, and even entire character classes became obsolete in places due to their incapability against PvE.

You don't need to look good to PvE either.


Looking better in PvE and PvP is equally important. Looking worse in PvE won't decrease your performance just as it wont in PvP but the enjoyment will increase in both.

WoW doesn't have them... wow... incredible. ANet should commit suicide because they failed to make a 100% replica of WoW without monthy fee.

PvP characters are GREAT, they are meant for PvPing *not* some kiddish roleplaying with dragons. PvP char is meant to do exactly that - kill, and kill with style. PvP char needs to look good, needs to have good looking weapons, and needs to be effective.

Stop forcing people to play the game the way you want it to be played. NO ONE forces you to use PvP-only chars.


ps: It would be great if everyone had their Age listed under avatar picture here in the forum, so I can skip many posts made here by 12yr olds. It hurts my brain to read them, just to get to those few who matter

To sum all this up...

Anet tried to build an integrated pvp + pve game and to please everyone that played it. They succeeded!

The problem is that to succeed they created several splintered versions of the same game all linked together.

Most everyone has one splinter of the game that they very much enjoy, missions/quests/dungeons/elite zones/Random arena/team arena/Heros Ascent/Guild vs Guild/Hero Battles...

The problem arises in that all of us think that our favorite splinter of the game(or 2 or 3) would be better and more enjoyable if they did away with or changed those parts we do not find as enjoyable. Anet has tried to stretch out that link by adding things exclusive to only part of the game(pve only skills/pvp only skins) but eventually they do have some impact on all players due to the simple fact that this is one game, not many many small games linked under one title.

Primary Quests are grind.

Its sort of like saying "yes, we know" but not really caring if anything is done about it, because there's just too much that would need to be changed.

Pfft. Waking up every morning is 'grind' yet we still do it.

Wrong. Every piece of GW content which is restricted unless you grind, creates *mandatory grind*. It's silly to say there's no mandatory grind just because you can finish the mission storyline in 1-2 days.

If I want a FoW armor and can only get it through mindless grind (instead of some normal ways), then that is mandatory grind. The content of FoW armor (other skins too but this is an example) is restricted to me by grind. I dunnot need to have that armor of course, but I also don't need *any* armor to finish the game. As a matter of fact I've done almost all Nightfall missions with starter armor and only bought new one when I felt like it. So, I could also say "armor isn't mandatory let's remove it", but that would be removing a huge amount of content.. why? The same reason is - why remove a huge number of armor sets for casual people, or restrict them? Why? Because they ain't mandatory? Sorry, but I proved no armor is mandatory, or no weapon for that matter. Why then? To prolong someones gaming time? Please, we ain't paying subscription fees, there's no reason for it. Why then? Simple, to satisfy those players who turned grind into their meaning of life.


In the end I'd like to repeat - stop with nonsense that grind isn't mandatory. No weapon and armor is mandatory, so why those aren't restricted either? The fact is that grind disabled a significant amount of game content for casual players who don't spend 24/7 hours in GW nor do they intend to.

Also, in case few of you forgot, games are meant for relaxation and not work, so don't even try telling me that "I should work for skins if I want them". If I wanted to work I'd work IRL and *buy* myself *real* skins!

No, waking up means you're alive, not grinding. Although there are a few I have seen post on this forum (not directed at anyone in particular, just a general observation) I wish wouldn't wake up....

FoW is optional, so, grinding for is also optional. Not to mention that not all obsidian look good (Ele armor looks very bad imho), but they are wanted because theyre expensive, so, some people need it to show themselves off. Just like crystaline swords. Now that Dwarven Axes can be crafted ,how many people still want them badly? If all of a sudden FoW becomes easy to get how many of these people will crave for it?

This is - by far - different from other games where you have to grind, and I mean spending dozens/hundreds of hours, just to get skills and equipment just adequated to your level.

Saying that primary quests are grind is non-sense. They are needed to be done just once, and they are pretty quick. Grinding is characterized by doing, the same, boring thing, thousands of times for a very long time - like in other games: go to spot -kill mob- get loot - wait for respawn - goto line1.

I can say farming is some sort of grinding, but even so, is a self imposed grinding. Money from farm helps? Alot, but I played a lot of chars in my 2 accounts, and with some of them, from start to finish without having to farm even a little. So, farm is not mandatory, it just helps you to get some of your vanity needs.

There is never any compatibility/balance in GW in regards to pvp and pve. Once they start changing skills everything just gets messy for pvp and pve.
They should have made pvp and pve only servers right from the start, this way everyone would have been happier.

Doesn't change the fact that the implementation of primary quests to force people to play the storyline is grind.

GW is an incredibly casual, almost pick up and play PvE and an incredibly hardcore pvp.

In Pve you can get started and go, henchmen can complete everything for you, outside of a few dungeons.

The pvp game requires you to spend $200, unlock all the skills & learn all of the important skills & skill animations, and requires you to have ventrilo and good teamwork. In fact, GW's hardcore pvp takes 5-15 minutes of setup before you can even start the match. Gw's pvp does not appeal to casual pvpers who will rush this week to buy HALO3. The dollar cost, teamwork issues, lack of good pvp singleplayer options, and time spent to setup make GW pvp a very niche game... one that's been bleeding players for the last 18 months.

Causal pvE and Hardcore pvp in the same game?

Incompatible. Nuff said.

It's a legit complaint of the casual player that he's constantly getting nerfed. "Wtf why dont my skills work?" "Why do I need to grind to get new skills (gear) and rework my whole build just because of some issue in a pvp game that I dont even play?"

Then there's anet's decision to introduce grind to satisfy the hardcore players of GW's causual pvE. Personally, I quit and uninstalled in May after anet asked me to grind luxon/kurzick points to use skills. No thanks. I accepted the soul reaping nerf but wolnt ever grind friggin alliance battles. Though vanquisher calls these inducements to grind bad pvE design issues, its hard not to blame the pvp balance for these issues. There's no gear worth getting for the hardest of the hardcore, there's no progression or character development except for nerfs which are universally negative, and that's because of pvp balance. The only thing to do is grind alot so some pvper will sell you gear so you can look like you are good at pvp.

Anet botched PvE, and GW pvp just isnt a product that will appeal to a mass audience (advantages over WoW or other MMO pvp notwithstanding).

Bring on GW2.

It sounds like GW2 is shaping to offer hardcore pvE from the get-go, so it'll be an entirely different experience.

Bolded where you debunked yourself.

Vanity is not mandatory grind. Mandatory grind would be grind that disables you from playing the game, not grind that disables you from obtaining access to a silly little bonus item thats slightly more shiny then the collector items and provides no additional benefit or advantage in competitive play.

I also LOL @ renaming me "bunch of PvE Grinders". I hardly ever PvE ! Ive never even completed fissure of woe. Im a PVP player. HA, TA, GVG and all that. RA when my guild is being lazy. 2 million+ balth faction. Most expensive thing I ever bought was 15k druids. And did I feel like the grind towards 15k druids was in any way "mandatory" ? No, because its a vanity item. I wanted it because I was willing to work for it and wanted to look differant then other rangers. Not because I had to get it to stay competitive in PvP or to stay alive longer in PvE but because I wanted to. Emphasis on want. If you want something, its not mandatory. Its only mandatory if you need it.

LOL fail.

I agree that Guild Wars is the strongest PvP MMO out there. It started out as pvp, hense the name Guild Wars and not World of Tyria. But the pve aspect of the game grew way too fast. Then they started catering more toward pve this last campaign(NF) and expansion(GWEN). Now Anet has a mess of trouble trying to balance pvp and pve out. What once started as pvp now is mainly pve. Most nerfs come at the cost of pve because its overpowered use in pvp. Thats probaly one of the top reasons for creating GW2.

I believe that the skills for PvP and PvE should be seperated some how, but still feel like it belongs to the world. I dont know about you, but i would really love to see an update containing content for the game, rather than seeing an update for the game saying "oh crap, what did they nerf this time". In the future, if Anet can get GW2 right, they could spend more time on making GW2 alot better by adding content and using their resources in places its really needed instead of constant nerf updates.