PvP and PvE are incompatable?

The effect is only minor depending on how much a person was using that skill in its original form.

Skill balances are not as extremely important in PvP as most think, what was needed more often than not was a new skill rather than changes to old skills. Adding new skills to offset skills that people veiw as over powered makes no impact on PvE, save it adds new skills that a montser may use against you. Changing skills does have a major impact on how a person plays this game.

Having a build that is fun to play with changed due to no fault on your part is tantamount to somebody changing the channel while your in the middle of your favorite TV show.

I have seen some really bad Rank 10 PvP players. But I see more down-right idiotic FoW armor owners. So I say PvP skill balance is more important and PvE is really not as much.

I would not play GW2 if it ends up like Korean grinder, and I certainly agrees if you want to build a good following, do something unique like star wars and magic the gathering rather than making short-term profit by imitating others. (Jeff Strain's point)

This is a really, REALLY bad viewpoint. Adding more and more skills is what Anet HAS done and it is one of the reasons they just can not balance the game anymore. The more skills, profs, and game mechanics they add the harder balance is. They're so bogged down in content right now, balance is virtually impossible.

PvP and PvE are incompatable. In pve you go up against level 28 mobs. You find a build that works, and level 20 mobs seem easy in comparison. PvP may have real people on the other side but they are still level 20. So skills get nerfed for pvp back to level 20 range. This makes the PvE people mad, no surpise there.

The PvE game is also being held back by the PvP requirements. Nothing can be added without worrying about what it can do to PvP. Play your favorite character in PvE for 2 years and want to try something new? You cant change your primary profession, you must make a new character and start from 0. Why? because differentiating character professions is important for PvP. Want to run a warrior with 4 energy regen to take advantage of the your secondary profession? Cant be done, Why? It would imbalance PvP.

The first part of your post makes no sense. Monsters are level 28 to make up power for brains. In PvP, there are really people behind there that can make up complex skill combinations that monsters wouldn't have the AI to do.

The reason you can't change your primary without deleting your character goes way beyond your example. Every character has a base of 2 energy pips, so if you changed to warrior, you'd simply lose your armor bonus. Besides the point, you'd have to change the whole look for your character including body style, hair, faces, armor, etc. Your example is pointless and makes absolutely zero sense.

True Level 28 monsters use power to make up for brains, but your still fighting a 8 level penalty in damaging them. This makes a build that can damage level 28 monsters being able to damage level 20 foes all the more powerful. Hence the build gets nerfed to make it balance level 20 foes.

As for changing profession, as i said, the only reason it cant be done is that for pvp ele have to look like eles and war have to look like war. For pve this is not important. The pvp requirement removes design options for the pve element. Therefore pvp hidners pve evolution.

The excuse to not buff skills instead of nerf is to not encourage "Build Wars." Most of the time, people don't like to play rock, paper, scissors with pretty graphics. If you take an overpowered build and build a counter to it, then the counter would only be good against that build. You will get defeated by anything else that your build doesn't adapt to, and victory would be given before the gates ope.

There also are things that only have limited counters and they're normally not worth it or there aren't that many. Melandru's dervish can't be blinded, making the great Blinding Surge worthless. No cripple, making it harder to kite. No deep wound, making it harder to spike. You could interrupt the cast, but he could move away to not get hit by d-shot. This and the ability to spam a non-elite eviscerate. Shouts are un-removable buffs that affect the whole party with only three counters. Well of Silence can't be used when you can't kill them under their armor and buffs. The others are hexes that cost a bit.

No matter what the skill is, there will always be one person who says that it was in their favorite build. No point in arguing that. However, if a skill is used by a multitude of players, then it must have been effective. If everyone uses it and abuses it, then perhaps it was too good. Not all though, RoF is used by everyone and is not overpowered.

PvP will be more important when the rewards of fame and real-life products exist. PvP will constantly be under change, and there will be times when skills are found to be too effective. PvE has monsters who can not change their skill bars, which means a fast way to kill them will stay most of the time. The simple fact makes me believe that PvErs just hate any kind of change for some reason. Find a slightly slower way to farm, or farm something else, that will still stay in use for some time. Play, Learn, Adapt.

~Some RA scrub.

Wow, I can't think about where to start. Level 28 monsters are created so you don't go ripping through PvE and so you may have to think about your tactics. Yes, it is true that level 20 monsters are a lot easier to kill than level 28. However, if you're playing against skilled players, level 20 people are a lot harder to kill than level 20 monsters as well. Builds get nerfed when they're too powerful in general. Not because people can use these builds to annihilate a level 28 boss and thus level 20 people in PvP. And in any case, almost all damage builds in PvE can't coordinate with PvP environments, so chances are you're not even dealing with the same build.

You're still not making any sense....

It still wouldn't work because of ARMOR. You know that important thing your characters have to wear?

Hahaha... What is to say armor varients couldn't be introduced so that, say, a monk armor could have warrior armor stats. True the monk would only have 2 pips of energy regen, but he/she would have 80 armor. This will never happen because of pvp. Thats my point. Maybe if i say it a 3rd time you will hear. PvP hinders PvE development/evolution.

.....

No it wouldn't happen because it is plain retarded. A monk relies on the 4 pips of regen that they have, along with other forms of e-management such as Glyph lesser or channeling, or whatever they spec into. No one who plays this game would be a monk with 80 armor but only having 2 pips of energy regen. Thats just plain dumb.

PvP doesnt hinder PvE development. There are many unique and original builds as well as team builds out there that work great in the PvE gameplay. Dumb ideas hinder PvE development...

Fame and real-life rewards. These are not what drives many people to play PvE. Having fun and playing a hero are important. PvE player satisfaction in the game does not come from competing with real people for status.

PvErs hate change when the change was done for soley PvP consderations.

What PvE evolution? o.O. I don't think there is such a thing unless you refer to the development of new campaigns, but.

What you desire is probably better with another game that has no classes and only armor and skills decides what you are. It doesn't make sense to put it in Guild Wars currently, because then the secondary class would be worthless, class names, and you would have to change the character models to either make them the same for everyone or choose your model at the creation screen. Then comes the problem of people crying that they want a monk with a warrior model without creating a new one, and perhaps some balance issues.

Yes exactly. There can be no PvE evolution because it is tied down by the requirement of PvP.

Hmm. Maybe you are somehow implying that PvE is somehow static. This is not the case. The PvE game changes almost everytime there is an update. Therefore it too evolves. My point is that PvE evolution, as provided by game updates, will always be limited in what it can change to by the millstone of PvP being hung about its neck.

Thank you for this...

Apparently reading failed you. Read the first sentance of the quote you're responding too..... (ill even bold it for you so your cant miss it unless your blind)

Saying something doesn't completely rule out other things, and it doesn't really make sense when I talk about how PvP nerfs are more important. Having fun is important to PvE too, but if you only run one skill bar it will probably become boring faster than it should be.

Perhaps it is best to understand what is needed =/. Don't think that some people hate that they didn't just burn some skills to the ground because it is widely used in PvE?

The title of this thread is PvP and PvE are incompatable. My point is that the motivations are incompatable and by extension the play types are incompatable. Sorry for not expaining that to you.

Look this has been going on for 2+ years now and still needs to be said (which is the sad part):

If you're buying Guildwars for a straight PvE only game, you're playing the wrong game. The original design of the game was to have PvE and PvP correspond with one another and both will be balanced using the exact same skill set. If you're looking for a game that has no PvP involvement in it whatsoever, than Guildwars isn't the game for you.

Knowledge and research will get you the farthest and the most out of life in gaming. If you wanted a truly PvE only, run through the lillys, slay the catapillar and whatever skill you want too because that skill will always be more powerful than what the catapillar will run, than you bought the wrong game. Skill balancing will be done with PvP and PvE in mind with more of the focus on how it will effect PvP gameplay. We as a forum have said it, the developers have said it, the company that owns the game has said it. Realize it, accept it, and move on with your life. The constant bitching and whining because of skill balancing is not an issue as you'll not change this fact.

Guildwars is a great PvE only game. It is just hindered by PvP considerations. The combination may have been the initial strength of GW but things change.

That is not what guild wars support says. They say if you want to change something discuss it on the forums. I wish to say that PvE is being held back by PvP. And therfore the two should be separate.

While it does seem unfair, the effect is minor in that nothing in PvE suddenly becomes unbeatable from the result of a skill balance. For the most part, skill bars don't even matter - you can run 8 empty slots and do fine.

The effect of PvP skill balancing on PvE is even less now with GWEN's PvE skills.

Be careful here, there's a large argument in another thread that's caused by someone speaking outside of his own experience. But getting to the point, traditionally, adding new skills has actually made things a lot worse. All the new professions so far still have some fundamental problems, which have a negative influence on the game. Paragons are broken as a class (too much offense + defense), Dervishes have a single overpowering skill (Avatar of Melandru), Assassins have abilities which are just bad for the game (offensive shadow-stepping), Rits promote degenerate play-styles (Spirit Spamming). While this is not to say that the original skills and classes were flawless (e.g. Soul Reaping), I can't see how adding even more skills will fix those problems above. The only way is to balance existing skills.

Wow, that's bull**** to the 10th power. How did you manage to convince yourself of that? As if NO OTHER GAME has a class/profession system where your primary whatever is unchangeable...no, obviously Guild Wars introduced the profession system just because it made recognizing classes in PvP easier.

No, you want it to change. And considering how misguided you are about game design in general, I'd say you're not particularly the voice of reason the devs should be listening to.

Yes unfortunately things have changed. Guildwars' biggest strength and what set it apart and made it unique among online games was the fact that these 2 were developed with the PvP being the end-game aspect behind it and the PvE to support and prepare your character to make this transition.
Then again it boils down to you bought the wrong game. This version of Guildwars was, is, and will always have skill balancing and development with PvP and PvE in mind because this was the nature of the way the game is designed. We can also say that PvP is hindered by the PvE community voicing their opinion on matters such as skill balance, party size (6v6 Ha anyone), etc.. When balancing a skill or class they dont just do it with PvP in mind, they also have to consider the ramifications on the PvE community. If it was up to the PvP community the Dervish, Ritualist, Assassin, and Paragon class wouldnt even exist as they were broken upon implamintation and never really and completely balanced even to this day. Skill balancing is also effected by this. There is a handful of skills that the PvP community would love to see completely removed from this game, but the uproar that would cause in the PvE community is what keeps the devs from doing so.

Also I'm curious about something you said and this made me laugh for 5 minutes, but did you actually write support about this topic? Did they laugh at you as hard as we are?

Skill balances only have an impact on PvP; they make no difference in PvE. There have been only two skill balances with PvE in mind.

TWO

Protective Bond was changed so that it would not remove only 1 energy at 17 protection.
Spirit Bond was changed so that it would be limited on how many hits in its duration it would heal on.

These two skill balances made little difference to the face of the PvE game.

Ah my fault again. I read somewhere, appolgies that i dont remember where, that having the char types instantly recognizable for what they were in PvP was a design decision. And if that should change I am sure the PvP community would be up in arms.

Hmm. Yes i want it to change and yes the user community HAS changed sinced the beginning of GW.

Misguided about game design in general? You say.. devs should.. I missed the part where you presented credentials on your expertese to speak as an expert of either group.

No I didnt buy the wrong game. I am just hoping they will make it better for me. And if they separarted PvP they could make it better for the PvP people too.

No not this topic.

We? Other than yourself who do you speak for?

They have already stated that they will not and cannot seperate PvP and PvE in Guildwars. They might do it for GW2, but they will not be doing it for this game because of the design of the game.

And again, as seen time and time before, because someone automatically has a thought or idea, that it should seriously be considered to make the game better for them. You said it yourself...
I can almost guarentee that had you have actually said you wrote support on this issue, 90% if not more (I'm sure I'm not the only one at the moment anyway that IS laughing) of the community would have been laughing their ass off.

As long as a skill is being balanced, and not being ruined its a good thing for PvE and not just a good thing for PvP. I understand when they change your bar, a part of your character, people get angry, but as long as its still viable and not ruined (which is the goal of balance) it doesn't force them to change their character. Balance for PvE is important and players that truly want overpowered skills are players that I hope this game isn't designed or intended for.
Why? PvE has tons of in game rewards: prestiege armor, greens, gold, festival hats, etc. Why can't PvP have any? In fact I think PvP should have unique rewards from PvE to encourage people to play both, so they both have unique rewards. Plus this is something that already exits in the game, the Hall of Heroes gives unique rewards to the victors. I've never heard that the problem with Halls is that it gives crystalines and sigils.

If you meant real life rewards, like the guild wars championships, I also don't understand. Its something that isn't only beneficial to the PvP side of the game its good for the whole game. I don't think any PvPer would really care if PvE had championships with rewards as long as the championships were based on skill, like on the challenge mission ladder. But its something I don't think PvEr's want and if thats the case why do you care?
I disagree. I think PvE benefits from being connected to PvP because it encourages a more balanced skill based PvE. A progression to a more traditional rpg, an rpg that is based on timed accomplishments is devolving. As an outside observer to WoW (been to busy playing this game to play it ) I think the secret to its success among other things is actually because it is less grindy, that its leveling mechanic is based more on quest rewards rather than the brute repetition of slaying monsters.

I'm not saying that a PvP game with PvE is a better game. I'm saying PvE game that focuses on skill is a better a game and a game that does has no reason to be separate from PvP.

If the impact was not concidered major by the people it effected this thread would not even exist.

It is a rare thing when people run a pvp build in pve, what I am reffering to is things like IWAY or 8 monks. Would these builds work in pve, maybe, but they usually have some flaw like not being able to deal with a mob of lvl 28 foes. MM build, ranger spike builds, Obsidian flame spike, spirit spam, ect...
All of these builds were created by people that saw a skill or skill set that would be fun and powerful. Was they absolutely no counter to these? No. But people did not like having to run the counter as it was weak to something else. That sounds like balance to me, like people seeing a foe and finding a means to overcome it. That is what PvE is all about. We dont get to have the monster only skills nerfed if its to hard or the mobs size reduced.

Now there are some, not many, but some cases where a skill is very broken and has no viable counter. In these cases the skill should be fixed, however, there is a fine line between fixing a skill and nerfing it completely. Changing how a skill works or its wording or damage can be a small adjustment or a drastic one. Anet always went for the drastic change for the most part. That is what annoyed many many players.

During the GWEN preview the skill Ferral Aggression was introduced. After the preview and before the release of GWEN the skill was nerfed.
They trippled its cost and halved its effects. This was not done because it was over powered in pve, nobody complained about it. It was done because somebody thought it might lead to abuse in PvP.

Is the skill still useable? I say not as it now is, for the cost + dmg I get more bang from other skills. Was ther a way of fixing it that would not kill it, yes. This has been true for most if not all of the skills changed to balance pvp.

Saying that you can play pve with an empty skill bar is a joke, you can play pvp with one to, doesnt mean youll win or have fun. I play to have fun, and having my builds changed so that they do not work as they used to is not what I call fun.

In pve we are constantly forced to bring skills that will counter our foes, in pvp you seam to want your foes to simply stop using those skills.


edit: It was late when I originaly wrote this, not sure it makes much sense or was just a rant.....in the end all that really matters is that what once was fun is slowly becoming less fun. And that my friends is very sad.