A discussion on 7 heroes

I guess the best reason to do this is because henchies don't always have great builds. However if they did do this, what would they do with the henchies? People like me would argue that you should be able to turn them all into heroes that you can optionally recruit.

Gaile did say a few times it would bring unbalance to the game, by being able to use 7 heroes instead of 3. Though she didnt state why its unbalanced, probally means people refuse to play with eachother anymore since they dont need to put up with them and use their heroes with their own preferred builds, tactics and the such instead. And that said its probally the only reason it wont be implemented, since a 8 player party would still be better if the players are seasoned enough, wich means it wouldnt bring unblancedness to monsters going down to fast or anything like that.

If they say it'll inbalance the game without giving a good reason that means they probably just don't want to do it, but won't tell us directly that they don't want to do it.

I wish they stayed quiet on the matter. Staying silent is better than looking stupid.

the 'unbalanced' thing is a little silly. I go with a combination of (1) laziness and (2) afraid of undue whining from people who play 1 or 2 classes and don't have all the skills unlocked. Neither is a good reason.

7H is the One True Religion.

The "unbalanced" argument is gibberish since a full team of competent guildies beats the tar out of a full team of heroes.

No one in this game started out with Hero's, they are a bonus that you have to work for. Just like weapons, skills ect.

The Henchmen would stay, as they are an option. I often find myself creating Hero builds to compliment my Henchmen.

Heros are better than real players?
Are you joking, i dont see any hero/hench teams winning hall of hero's..
Do you?
Hero's will never be better than Talented Skilled Humans.

I have to add my voice to the I really, really would love to see the option of having all hero parties.

The first objection that comes up. You can't have all hero parties because then no one would PuG anymore. And Anet wants us to play in PuGs.
I play mostly H&H.
No it's not because people suck, or even PuGs suck - some do some don't. I've been in awesome PuGs. I've been in horrible ones.
I like PuGs! - When I can set aside the X hours of uninterupted playtime needed to do things like them there shiny new dungeons in GW:EN.
Which don't happen very often. Most of the time, I have to be available to go AFK for 10-20-maybe even 30 mins, if something comes up. I get half an hour here, and half an hour there. As I suspect is a big reason why lots of us casual players don't PuG a lot of the time.
We just don't want to be the burden to the party that have to go AFK because the baby's crying, or the washing machine beeped and there's 4 loads of laundry that must be done and 3 hours to do it in. Or any of the other milion reasons that are more important to us casual players with real lives happening, than an MMORPG.
Having to take henchies rather than your own heroes, have very little, to no impact on the why people group up with others or not. The ones that want to play with other people will do so regardless, and the ones that don't, or can't, or won't, don't or can't or won't regardless of the heroes or hench situation.

The game is not balanced for 7-hero parties.
Poppycocks! This is such pure manure.
Oh NOES!!!elentyone!!! casual PvE players might play the bits of the game that well coordinated 8-player guild groups with TS does. All by themselves. In the 30 minute chunks of game time they can squeeze in here and there during an evening.
The heavens will fall out of the sky!
Just imagine, they might breeze through an area in an hour rather than have to spend the whole evening doing it. Just as if they were playing in a 2-player + 6-heroes team!
This is horrible! Then how can we tell the l33t hardcore lot from the casual lot.

But what if they think up weird and wonderful synergizing hero teams that does things we never expected?
What! Can't have that, just imagine. Someone might take a whole team with all X/ranger + a pet just to see the charge of the 8 bear brigade, for the pure enjoyement of watching them fluffy hairballs bear (pun intended) down on a mob of critters. Have to put a stop on things like that!

No seriously, what's the worse that can happen?
Some areas are a bit easier, takes a bit less time to complete. Here's a hint. It's not the casual player lot that are on these forums complaining about how the game is too easy.

It is however the casual player lot that would have the most to benefit from all hero teams.

But most of all, it would just bring another aspect to the game. One that I would enjoy a great deal. One that might revive a spark in a game that's getting rather much of the same old, same old.
The building a whole team. The hours of fiddling around to come up with a fun combination of classes and skills to do something new. (Like the charge of the 8 bear brigade - that'd be such awsomeness to watch them go.)

Eh, would be nice but i'm not getting my hopes up.

Don't get why we can't though despite what gaile has told us.

H/H are usually better than bad players. Thats why they´re so popular.

But even the best hero setup cant win over a well coordinated team of human players. So..having a full team of heroes isnt nearly as powerful as full team of GOOD humans.

How about you guys start spamming threads about merging the continents together, making a global party system, massive increased reward/title when partied with people, "I play with people" armor/weapon/pve skill, etc., instead of this overdone topic....

Because we don't want to play with the incompetent fools in PUGs.

Seven Heroes are overpowered. Even in the two oldest campaigns Prophesies and Factions the 3 heroes are overpowered. Heroes should not be allowed in normal mode in the 1st two campaigns because they were not designed for them, even Nightfalls difficulty is designed for only 3 heroes. Maybe in some future incarnation , but thats a fundamental mechanic of the game and should not be tampered with, least balance be completely destroyed. Take into account PvE skills and consumables and we are on the brink of imbalance as it stands.

How are heros "overpowered"?

Are you blind or have you just been ignoring the fact (that has already been stated) that seven heroes are not overpowered compared to an 8-man guild team?

Increase the number of heroes will raise my mule's capacity of storing junks

Why are you people equating the difficulty bar of the game to that of an 8-man guild group? If it were so, many players wouldn't be able to complete the game just because the difficulty would be too high.

The difficulty is designed with PUGs in mind, and THAT is where the one player seven hero is overpowered comes to mind, because there are less conflicts between characters.

With heroes being more consistant and better than the average player you'd meet at random, obviously having more of them makes your team stronger than taking in another player. This in turn leads to a hero limit so that you take at least one other person to fill out your team with heroes.

tru.dat zaHr

all right lets try this on for size and see if the pro farmer has a fit.

you can take a full hero party but the solo farmer high end exclusion list is disabled.

you have the fun of an anytime elite area custom build group for fun but every hero gets his/her full random share no solo high end exclusions at all.

but you have all the fun and challenge and insta group flexibility you are demanding.

just not the elite excluded loot

OK WITH THAT?

It's not like heroes can easily become "godmode lol". It takes a decent amount of general knowledge of the game. A newer player won't do well with a full team of heroes. You'd need a broad understanding of the game in order to have successful heroes.

And if you think humans are underpowered, then I say this: PvE Skills.

Why not? Not much of a difference. It's just like being in a selfish PUG.

Absolutely. Why should a single player that's with a bunch of heroes get different loot than a single player that's with a bunch of people?

And by that same logic no more than 4 people from the same guild should be allowed in a group, in the interests of "balance."

Let's see how THAT goes over, shall we?

And that adds what to your argument of increasing the number of usable heroes per character per team? If they don't know how to use 3 heroes, they sure as hell won't know how to use 7 at once.

PvE skills do not remedy the failing intelligence that destroyed PuGs. They hide it. If henchmen (in Prophecies/Factions/Nightfall with their subpar builds and no runes/insignia/weapon mods) were able to get people through each game, why add more hero slots per player? The difficulty was set for them to have those subpar builds. Besides, ArenaNet has to give incentives for players to buddy up, and that's heroes and PvE skills.

I forgot to add in that the hero limit was for grouping incentives. It's the exact same reason they gave for when they dumbed down henchmen AI between beta (alpha?) and release of Prophecies.

I think we should have the ability to use 7 heroes.

I mean, we have 25 total, and can only use less than 1/8 of them at a time? Might as well just give us 10 heroes...

That's kind of my point. It's not like having more heroes somehow magically makes you better at the game. You still need to know what you're doing, and then some: You not only need to know about *your* build, but the builds of your three heroes. It's up to you to come up with those skill bars, make sure that they compliment each other, and if the hero even uses the skill right. This can usually get pretty tough.

In just any random PUG, you could just worry about your own build, and you were good to go.

Right now, I don't mind. Henchies were fine before, even better now (see below). The reason that I think it would be cool to have 7 hero slots is because it's more personal and just plain fun. It'd be more satisfying completely assembling your own army instead of having to take a premade placeholder.

Like I said I can't complain. Henchies are more than fine to take in those last 4 spots.

That's pretty much no longer in effect. In GWEN, the henchies have some real kick ass bars, namely Zho and Herta. Why look for someone else to bring additional heroes when the henchmen are insanely useful and versatile?

I also have found people not finding too much incentive in the limit anyways. It's so much easoer to pick up the henchies and gogogo.

I used to be against 7 heroes, but I have changed my mind. I am all for it. Why? Cause it'd be badass. That's why. It shows character growth within the story. We started in Prophecies as lowly trainees, developed our skills, watched our homes burn, fought back and went on to save the world. Then we heard about some foreigner coming back from the dead, so we went and kicked his butt, and saved the world. Right as we were about to enjoy a cup of tea, some retard unleashes an unspeakable evil on yet another continent, and who do they call? Us. Off to kill a god, make a god, and save the world.

Along the way we, once lowly trainees, have impressed other adventurers who decided to make our journey their own. They are ready at a moment's notice to lend their lives to our cause. But we can only take 3 at a time? WTF??? Is Little Thom like a union rep or something so we HAVE to take one of the henchies?

What if ANet had been in charge of fairy tales?

'And here we have Snow White and the seven dwarves, Sleepy, Grumpy, Doc, Alesia, Stefan, Mehnlo, and Talon Silverwing.'

... WTF!?

Sometimes you just need to change things because it would be badass to do so.

Make a communety event to show anet that we want 7 heros! STRIKE! lol

Anet needs to say "YES" to this as far as I'm concerned. I'm a casual player and often don't have time to spend standing around looking for a group to get into and "hope" some of them might be competent enough to make the mission a success. I do missions alone and quests alone unless its with some guild mates.

Having 7 heroes would be perfect for me. I could then decide what skills I want on the team to suit the mission. I'm tired of taking those silly hench that have pretty much worthless skills. I don't need some hero yelling "charge!" every time the skill recharges even though we're not actually moving.

As a casual player, I don't need overwhelming difficulty in a game. Sure others want it, well fine don't use 7 heroes. I could then build the group I want. It would force me to spend money on skills, runes, weapons and other things that would benefit the gold sink.

I also wish heroes would wear the cape of their "owner"

Come on Anet. say yes to this. I'll keep using stupid hench instead of real people... so keeping me from a group of 7 heroes will never make me PUG.

Except this thread wasn't made with the newer player in mind. The OP wants to know why people have their view on which is better to have 3/7 heroes. Obviously, to have any kind of viewpoint that contributes to the thread, you'd have to at least know the basics on controlling and using heroes. Given that, having 7 heroes is going to be much stronger than a PuG, compared to 3 heroes and 4 henchies (which is still stronger, but limited by henchmen choice).

I'm of the same position, but it doesn't offer a solution to the stance ArenaNet has taken, which is to provide incentives to grouping up with random players and have fun along the way with your new acquaintances/friends.

What ArenaNet said before was AI (and the AI back then was terrible). They never said anything about skill bars, though that could have been part of the sweep to pro-grouping/anti-henchmen sentiment at the time. There's been two henchmen AI buffs since then, and the GW:EN skillsets for henchmen (for the most part) are ridiculously good compared to Prophecies/Factions and a step up from Nightfall. What I find lacking is situational awareness. Sometimes, you want to take out two or more targets at once (shutdown one, damage pressure another). Henchmen at the moment cannot do that, since they will follow your actions. This is where the hero system comes into play, allowing you slightly better control. As it is, I've no problem with three hero slots because the henchmen do a fine enough job that I don't really care to have more.

Vinraith..
I <3 you !!
That's awesome

I very strongly support 7H.

The new henchmen in GW:EN are 'overpowered' by the way. Herta with Sandstorm and Aidan with Barrage... not overpowered?

For me it's the exact same thing.... why give people 25 heroes to let them use 3? It destroys variety when all you're doing is using Olias, Dunkoro and Zhed EVERY time. I'd like to include Rt, Me, even maybe Zenmai (gasp) and this would massively increase variety and role-play value. But in really tough areas it would mean giving up LOD, minions or SF...which is not an option.

Yes, I'd like to be able to do really tough areas with 7H. Like people say above, the main advantage of Heroes is that they DO NOT QUIT and leave you unable to complete the mission.

Just another point.... with heroes you get to make builds based on the skills and elites *YOU* have unlocked/capped. This is a good way to reward people with multiple classes, skill hunters, or to transfer a benefit from PvP to PvE.

Can I ask a question of those saying it would be overpowered?

Can you explain why it would be overpowered? What can the heroes do that a player cant?

By 'overpowered' they probably mean 'they can use 8 pve only skills'.
Oh wait, they can't! They can't even use 1 good pve skill FFS.

Just because Koss is better GW player than your average wammo doesn't mean he's overpowered.

I do understand that people would like to run 7 heroes.

Arguments like 'overpowered' and 'unbalanced' are partly true.
I know a seasoned 8-human group would easily beat the 1+7 group.
However, I don't think people that have the posibility to form a seasoned 8-human group are the ones asking for 7 heroes.

Hero AI is good at one thing: timing.
Both interrupting and certain spike build (pre-nerf GvG Discord team for example).
While it's very possible to do the same (and better) with full human teams, it's a very powerfull tool, specially considering that the player him/herself does not need a lot of skill to play such builds.

Now, with two human players and 4 heroes people would have about the same result as with 7 heroes.
So there is no reason there to deny a 7 hero team.

However, do we really need 7 heroes?
The main pro-hero arguments are the following I think:
- Hench AI is broken
While they are not as good as heroes, it was possible to hench prophecies and factions. Same for H&H nightfall and EotN.
- Certain areas/quests are difficult/impossible with hench
This is true, but only limited to a few specific areas (FoW/UW access from ToA Normal Mode comes in mind) and quests.
- People want to play solo and not wait to team up with someone else
Well, don't buy a MMORPG/CORPG!

So while 7 heroes would be nice, there is absolutely no need.

If you want game improvement, stop asking for ideas that would turn the game in a single player game (even more than it is now) and start asking for things that would improve teaming up with other people.
I know A-net implemented the party search, however, there is a lot more that can be done here.
I'm mainly thinking about scheduling and a posibility to watch/place party requests in a certain outpost while not being there yourself.

They really should be allowed to use PvE skills though. After all, I buy those SS skills from a hero skill trainer npc, don't I ?

For people that complain about 7H....no-one is suggesting that we force you to use it.

It would just be nice if the people that wanted to use 7 heroes would be able to. If people don't like the idea, they don't have to use it. But saying that this should be denied to others is just wrong.

It's only the people that are using 3H+4hench anyway.

Again, why give us 25 heroes to use 3? Also, it damages RP value. Cut scenes with Heroes involved when they are not in party? Not a good thing...

What about mesmers? what about Assassins? what about those classes that humans won't take?

I'm sorry, but trying to get in a group because the henchies can't do it is like bungie jumping with a normal rope, you're better off not trying.

I play an assassin. The average PuG has an IQ less than my cat, and they also don't take assassins, because they don't know how they work...

so I turn to my faithful heros, and the not-so-faithful henchies. The henchies aggro a group, and die, because I can't set their status...

Of course, Heros will never be better than when I use my guild, but I can't call my guild every 20 minutes when I can't find a group.

While the AI is good at things like interrupting in terms of reaction time, they dont choose the best skills to interrupt. A hero will be happy to interrupt flare and then sit there while MS is cast.

A player even a fairly poor player has an advantage over the AI simply because they can think. They can look at whats happening and make an informed choice on what to do. Its the same for all AI actions. While they may be quicker to react to something it doesnt mean they are going to react well.


As many people has said previousely there are many reasons players cant/dont get a team of players.

Be it a case of time.
Looking after kids and so having to go afk for long periods of time.
Just so you can take a break whenever.
So they arent forced into playing a set way. Be that build or tactics.


So anyone that cant guarantee they can play for x hours at a time shouldnt buy a MMORPG?

I can assure you that the casual player outnumbers the hardcore player. So to suggest that is to suggest GW should loose a good portion of its playerbase.


And again for those that dont want it, it wouldnt effect you. Those that enjoy playing with real players will continue playing with real players.
All this would do is allow more people to enjoy the game in the way they want.

It's one thing on a looong list what should be done.