A discussion on 7 heroes

I'm not sure how they aren't user friendly already.

But pugging is inherently a pain in the ass. Making pugging less of a pain in the ass means making pugging less like pugging.

Come to think of it, isn't that exactly why heroes were added?

Easy to fail missions that take you back to outpost, lack of a more universal grouping system, having to stay in the outpost while waiting for a party, not being able to replace leavers, not being able to join mid-mission, not being able to kick grievers/leechers, etc.

While some of those are a bit up in the air, that doesn't mean that pugging doesn't have the potential to be a terrifyingly nasty experience.

If theese were in game since begining, we would likely not have this thread.

Again, until PvE has a rank of players, PvE isn't a competition between players.

Any suggestion that a non-existent PvE competition has priority over the the fun of enjoying building a team skills is a non argument.

People that want bragging rights about being better than other players have PvP.

Second, by your logic they need to either buff h/h play style or nerf human play style, because human team will be able to complete certain areas a lot faster than h/h (incidentally the more profitable areas), more than making up for that "time advantage" heroes have.

Third heroes have associated costs.

And all the not so wonderful updates we have had since NF really show how much of a clue Anet have about what is fun in this game.

Go go Ursan Way, Perma SF Sins, PVE only skills, Consumables and everything else.

7 heroes would be better for this game then any of that ever was.

Not necessarily. There is still the fundamental problem that GW was never intended to be like other MMOs. While the lack of compulsory grind does make for better playing, it also means that there is now a serious drop-off in players due to its age. A better pugging system would help stave off the need for more malleable AI helpers, but in the end, the lack of players in general is partly what's forcing the hand here.

I get the feeling the Devs are holding off giving us 7 heroes because it's like admitting the number of active players is constantly going down.

It's a shame that the game mechanics don't allow people from around the world to play together more easily really. I don't know about you guys, but I hardly ever even bother looking through the International districts. If it wasn't for the blessings of the Gods, I'd almost say merge them. Admittedly, you wouldn't have many more players, but you'd get some.

If we had something like a global party search system, I bet PUGs would be a lot better. We'd get a lot less of the "Is there a mission here? Oh yeah, LGF" players. And many veteran players with nothing specific to do---for example, I'd enjoy this---could browse the global search and see where people need help and then help out just for fun. Without any "need" to complete specific missions or quests, I'd be a lot more relaxed, team-friendly, and tolerant of the teammates who are just trying to zip their way through the mission to get it under their belt.

So, 7 heroes + global party search system = win!

No 7 heroes please, for various reasons mentioned allready. Thank you.

There is only one reason that is somewhat valid - Anet distribution of their limited resources .

Other reasons against 7 heroes have no influence on PvE PUG play.

Why?

H/H players won't PUG because they don't want to and the game allows them to do that. If you force them to PUG you can bet a large majority of this player group will leave the game.

Players that play in small family/friends groups/guild groups won't play PUG either.

PvP players, for obvious reasons, won't do PvE PUG either.

The argument of 7 heroes or even 3 heroes per player or even henchmen, is as weak regarding PUG play as is the PvE argument regarding PvP play.

GW is successful for several reasons - some people like to believe that it is because it is not p2p (as if that is a bad thing).

I believe one of the main reasons is because it offers a party based game that can be played solo.

That was one of the reasons it attracted me.

Ignoring that team build is one of the most relevant and interesting aspects of GW is to be blind.

A player with 3 heroes only control half of the team 64 skills. This seriously gimp the experience regarding team building.

Yes, it is not necessary to create a 64 skills team build to finish the game story.

But then I don't understand why the rage against something like ursan blessing, the number of limited useful skills amongst the hundreds of skills in the game or how the titles made people focus on a single character instead of learning and savoring several different professions (another thing that made me play GW - different playstylse characters).

Again, PUG play is dying because of lack of players that like to PUG and game expansion over the years (zaishen quests and nicholas are things that improve the PUG play, among other things) the same way PvP is dying due the lack of PvP players and due to no monetary tournaments that attract professional/semi professional players and increase the general population attention to the PvP competition.

Those same reasons got shot down already. You did mean those reasons right?

Sorry if this is a lil off-topic...but the game itself seems to recommend more heroes!





It's been mentioned above, but heroes suit my playstyle (and free time) better than a lot of real players. They allow me to be "rude" and go afk to deal with a work phone call mid-mission without complaining, and they can be infinitely better than henchies...

Human SC teams are already overpowered. Having 7 heroes would actually be a handicap compared to a full human team.

Instead of forcing players to party up, we should force more heroes into each team because PvE is already too easy.

Once again...Speed Clears are only like 1% of the game! And like I said before for the remaining 99% of the game human groups with full overpowered skills only come up on par with heroes just because there isn't some crazy split-up gimmick that can be abused.

Ex. My Guild group using every overpowered gimmick skills in the book + cons, managed to clear ferndale in 25min, but I had to wait more than 15min to gather everyone. Using Discordway + cons, I clear ferndale in 35 min, but I didn't have to wait for anyone, so even though the human group were better the heroes still came out on top by 5min. And that was BEFORE the CoP and RoJ nerf....I imagine right now the difference is even greater, and will get worse once they nerf Shadow Form as well. (And I'm quite sure they will)

Not to mention 0 incentives to actually group in the first place, having the same loot for soloing and grouping is almost like a punishment for actually trying to group. At least have a "grouping" title or something. Or create some new un-tradable items that only drop when its a full human group.

The funny thing is that I used to not care so much about the heroes because I believed that stuff like Ursan, CoP and Speed Clear, and the various other group farms are the incentives for grouping...ya I was quite naive to think they wouldn't be nerfed .

1. Speed Clears are definitely more than 1% of the game. They are very common and they happen everyday.
2. Since you didn't post the "overpowered gimmick skills" your team used, it is hard to judge if you are really making full use of your PvE skills and your synergies.
3. The 15 minutes that you used to gather everyone should not be counted in because it depends on the individuals. If everyone is responsibile and on time, the waiting time should be close to 0. One trick you can try, is to tell everyone to meet at a certain time but make it 15mins before you actually want them to meet. This way they would probably be ontime and your waiting time would be almost 0.

There are already lots of incentive to group together. 24 overpowered PvE skills per team instead of 3, for one. Also easier if you control just your own character without the need to micro heroes, which I often need to when they are attacked by AoE spells, for another. Humans can also hold items which heroes can't, which makes human players a requirement for certain missions. Human healers can also prioritize healing important NPCs better which makes them indispensable in many missions if you dont want to fail. So on and so forth, I can name more but I dont have the time right now to do so.

Playing with other people is already a million incentives not to group.

For those who say that 7-Hero will make GW a non-MMO game. I just want to point out that for the past 4 years, I haven't seen PUG bigger than 8 and i havent seen anyone in explorable areas other than my own team. If an 8-man PUG is considered an MMO, then we have to re-define MMO.

We have MMO in Spamadan (and in PvP outpost which i don't visit). But not in explorable area. So having 7-Hero will not make this game non-mmo.

The problem is that you are assuming PERFECT scenario human groups. A well designed game shouldn't assume people plan everything out perfectly and use the most synergized group (which would also take time to plan, btw). I tell guildie 15min ahead of time, and I would still get several that takes 20 min instead, and a few that get frustrated because they did nothing for 15min thinking a group will start right then, and a few that has something to do after 15min. All I was saying was that heroes take less effort and time to go out and finish areas in comparison to above average human groups. Humans just don't stand there ready whenever for a group. Which is why people will be tempted to jump ship.

PvE skills are not enough of an incentives because most of them suck, don't synergize, or has too little effect for the grind. The remaining good ones are getting nerfed left and right. Not to mention the more I try to get everyone to fit the "right" PvE skills and the more I try to check to see if builds are synergized, the more time it takes the whole group to go. Or...I do the whole cookie cutter thing and force the entire group to go with a pre-determined build, which is a horrible and boring way to ensure group efficiency.

Right now incentive to group exist in areas like UW, which is basically a level of loot that cannot ever be surpassed by any 2 player + 6 heroes team. Too bad it resulted from unintentional balance problem instead of an official update policy. And its only for less than 4 areas in the game.

If they make it so that just a balanced human group actually has a tangible and significant advantage (maybe some special drop/title) over a heroes group, then maybe I can actually plan a whole guild excursion (ya, we have to PLAN, since we are normal players and ain't professional farmers) without feeling that I'm gimping myself by not going with heroes.

What if Anet gives 100k to every full human group that complete certain area, would you do it? Exaggerated but it also shows that the the problem isn't as one sided as people seem to think.

I would not be suckered by this deal. why not you ask? just because you throw an incentive out there does not mean that a party of full human players will actually be able to complete an area. you are assuming that godly players will all of the sudden spawn. no thanks. you keep your 100k and ill keep my 7 heros.

good day.

Also:

7 heroes would allow us to do... Underworld. Fissure of Woe. Domain of Anguish. Urgoz.

You are assuming what you want wouldn't be gamebreaking.

You are assuming that what you want isn't outrageous.

There is a big difference between multiplayer game with solo option, and a solo game with a multiplayer option. Guild Wars is the 1st, but people want the 2nd. In other words...people bought XP expecting Vista. The box means nothing.

No, but Guild War's Co-op is certainly unique. Name me another game that is remotely close in gameplay that has anywhere near the quality engine of GW (particularly in its RPG team style PvP).

7 Heroes makes singleplayer the encouraged playstyle.

I guess if you keep repeating that it might magically come true. I have given my reasons, none of which has to do with your fun.

Correct...it was a CORPG where multiplayer teams were supposed to battle enemies or each other.

Welcome to Guild Wars...a game you seem to hate the entire concept of.

I'm getting tired of people continually using the annoying parts of pugging as their sole argument in favor of 7 heroes. I have never had as many bad experiences as people claim. Most importantly though haven't you ever heard of a guild, or an alliance, or networking, or friends, or just about anything else associated with multiplayer games or life in general? You do know that GW was built around these things right?

Actually PvE is a competition if you involve yourself in the economy in any way. Economys are inherently competitive...one reason why overpowered crap shouldn't exist in PvE.

Yea...like the addition of heroes after NF.

That...and the other 10 or so I've given.

Show me where they were shot down and get back to me.

Who cares? As long as heroes can beat any area in the game they are already OP. You said it yourself...PvE is easy. The fact that humans have OP crap doesn't add to your argument...it just means that humans have OP crap.

That is not an incentive...and is honestly hilarious. The incentive to group is that humans have more stuff that shouldn't exist. LULZ. Get back to me with some real incentives for grouping, and then maybe I'd start to agree with the inclusion of 7 heroes. Maybe being the keyword of course.

Because being able to solo or have your AI beat elite areas is good for any game.

Fine by me.

Speed Clears are like that and I still don't do them.

Some people play the game for fun - fun isn't equal to profit.

Although I don't see why you should be rewarded by playing in a certain way.

Might as well give 100k to any team that goes in a certain area with a balanced team opposed to a tank and spank, or goes in UW with h/h instead of SC groups or use crappy skills, or dont use consumables or because they have to go pick up their kids and interrupt their play for half a hour.

Basically you are stating that everyone should get the exact same reward per time played.

This argument is obviously shit.

You simply want to prove that people simply are greedy and want heroes to make more profit.

People already told you that heroes are better than henchies.

Can you tell us that playing with 7 customized by you builds is less interesting/less imersive than with 3 builds customized by you and 4 done by anet?

Are you telling me ursan has more depth than a build like moebius strike?

Games like UT, Quake, BF 1942, WC3, Half-life, Diablo II and SC, for example, all have single player options and multiplayer options.

And?

Name me a game that can be played solo or with another person and has the team build quality of GW.




So are you telling me that if Anet introduces 7 heroes you will stop playing with other humans?



I guess some people can use GW to replace their real life, but most just want to come and have some fun.

The argument for 7 heroes is options. As people and you say - the more options the more depth. Heroes have more options than the henchmen hence they had more depth to the game.

MORE HEROES = MORE DEPTH = BETTER GAME



IF. Keyword there. No rank, no ANET rules for that competition. Basically it isn't a competition.



And all of them aren't arguments since all of them are illogical and based on wrong assumptions

Clearly an example of your wrong arguments and logic.

You want a game without AI since then you believe more people will play in groups.

Some of the PvP want a game without PvE because then all players will have to play PvP and Anet wont spend resources in PvE.

Both of these arguments are wrong because they assume people would keep playing GW if those things would be removed.

The truth is that the player base would dwindle as people DONT HAVE TO PLAY GW if it doesn't give them the experience they are looking for.

More incorrect logic.

If you need incentives to do something in a game other that fun (if you are playing for fun) the game fails.

A bit above you talk about social networks and stuff, but here you state that you need incentives to play with humans, or putting in another words, you need to be PAID to play with humans.

Additionally, social networks destroy PUGGING TOO! The moment you have a social network you stop PUGGING AND PLAY WITH UR SOCIAL NETWORK!

Most of the time I play with other people (1 to 3-4 other people).

Why do I do that?

Because i go in TS and talk with them and they are fun and I like to spend some time playing with them.

That is all the incentive you need.

I would like both 7 heroes and PvE-only skills on the AI.

More options and more depth for a better game on the rare occasions I play alone because none of my social network isn't on or just because I don't feel like interacting with them.

If GW doesn't give me that option, I will probably go play another game when I don't want to interact with other people (which I often do because playing with 4 henchies is dull).

I really hope I can beat any game that can be played solo on my own... I guess you are saying Diablo II is a bad game because you can beat the elite areas on your own...


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Most people given the option to play with fun, competent interesting people they like, they will do so.

But that type of people is not the most abundant anywhere.


More, sometimes I have a bad day and I'm just not in the mood to be other people and being polite and follow social protocols.

If GW was the way you defend dreamwind, I couldn't play GW in those days.

What you think it's a weakness of GW seems to me as great advantage.

If they implement 7 heroes then the only thing I will do with other humans would be Deep and Eternal Grove. At least till I learn where to properly flag all of them... (planting 7 flags will be a hell at the beginning). So I will be one of those who now is still playing with other humans but will cease to do it when 7 hero party is implemented.

Why do you play with humans?

Why would you stop playing with other humans?


It seems you aren't having that much fun playing with other humans if given the chance you will jump around to heroes without blinking.

Not the original poster, but for my answer:

Because not doing something when I want to do it, but waiting for another person so that we can do 2 humans + 6 heroes is better in a lot of areas (Like the aforementioned Eternal Grove) than 1+3+4 braindead henchmen with terribad stupid bars.

Not that said other human will always be an RL friend or guildie, and NEVER a PUG.

Because I wouldn't have to deal with stupid henchmen bars.

Ding ding ding. Give the man a cigar. More time is spent in the GH or outpost waiting for the party to gather than doing most tasks.

So there's a solo option, you prooved my point thanks. The multiplayer aspect can be found in PvP and coop PvE (friends, guild & alliances). Pugging is an option too, but it's not very popular. Most players will only pug if they have no other choice which was prooven when Nightfall arrived. Forced pugging sucks.

So you play with humans (and especially strangers) only when you are forced to.

What would happen if you were forced to always play with humans?

I'd spend a lot more time playing my consoles.

A game that is 4 years old, with a new one on the way, should use any means possible to keep a workable percentage of their player base. If 7 heroes would accomplish this then I think it should be done.

I'm not sure if it would accomplish this, but for those still in this game, playing with 7 heroes instead of h/h, would certainly give them a better game experience.

I would still recommend a friend + 6 heroes over 7 heroes for great GW experience, though.

Because clearing UW in 15 mins while everyone solo 1 part is good ?

And i could not clear UW with 7 heroes in 1-2h going slowly, enjoying the grahics, exploring the area. All that because "you" dont want heroes ??

ofc, full party of nuker/smiter/COP or whatever uber big cookie that clear elite area in less then 20 mins is good for a game ?

but 7 heroes for us who don't pug is bad for you ??

o.O

I am not assuming a perfect scenario human group. I am just saying that the amount of waiting time is not fixed. Some may come 20mins late but some may come just 5mins late for example or some may even come immediately.

I would have to disagree with you on this. PvE skills are emphasized in many PvE builds because they are overpowered. Even after nerfs, they are still useful (e.g. Ursan and CoP), just not crazily overpowered like before. Not all of them are nerfed. YMLAD, FH, EVAS, and Pain Inverter are still popularly used and overpowered.

I even tested forming a team with 2 of my accounts to compare a team of 3 PvE skills versus 6 PvE skills. My primary character has the same fixed build, my secondary character only carries 3 skills (Summon Ruby Djinn, Ebon ward of courage, and Ebon ward of wisdom) and only casts these 3 whenever they are available. The performance result is a BIG difference. Previous tough areas became ALOT easier even without runes on my heroes.

Now when I use a 6-heroes build, all I need to do is to press 1,2,3 on my other keyboard to cast these 3 pve skills on my secondary character near my primary character and focus on playing my primary. Just 3 more PvE skills makes alot of difference.

That is just your personal taste on pre-determined builds, that doesn't mean they are not powerful. With vent, you can more easily co-ordinate your team with a spoken word, while someone with H/H has to micro them. And you can only do that to an extend. Human players are alot smarter (e.g. they dont try to shoot through walls) and they dont trouble you for micro managing since they can play themselves and they dont clump together without you planting flags before a battle.

But heroes/henchies cannot beat every area in the game. They suck in many of the harder missions like DoA or even Dragonur and many others. They can't heal NPCs in the Divinity Coast mission, and they cant carry items for the other missions.

PvE is easy because of the overpowered human groups, not because of heroes. Which is why 7 heroes is actually gimping yourself.

But they DO exist. Wake up and look around you.

Closing your eyes and repeating to yourself that PvE skills don't exist would not convince anyone.

And that is the problem. Solo is usually more difficult than in a full human team because you often have to micro your heroes while playing your own character at the same time, especially in hard areas. It actually takes more SKILL to H/H than to play in a well co-ordinated human team with overpowered PvE builds. I wish I can co-ordinate my heroes with spoken words too, like vent in a human team, instead of having to flag and micro them while having to play my own character at the same time is so troublesome.

I spit up coffee on my keyboard reading this.

Why? It is a perfectly true statement. Caring for the activities of multiple characters requires micromanagement and more skill than merely controlling a single character.

DoA is a bad example, since you've pretty much got to play a specific 4-class meta even as human players to have a prayer. And the reason H/H are prohibitively hard (not impossible) to use in Dzagonur HM is not because of the heroes, it's the damn henchmen requirement. 1 Human + 7 Heroes + 0 bad-barred morons would certainly be doable.

Hey. Hey, people who think I shouldn't be able to do elite missions with heroes:

I play Ritualist. A class that's oft outright rejected for groups, particularly in these areas.

So you think, basically, I shouldn't be allowed to do elite missions with my character.

i agree with this. ive watched my friends list become full of people offline. ive switched guilds and alliances looking for more activity. there are just times when i play that no one is on and it would be nice to load up 7 heros with skill bars i can select then a gimped party of me, 3 heros and 4 henchies(with the henchie bars being barely better then most noobs that try and get into your party). 7 heros would give me the chance to take a profession that most people look down on into elite areas. ill still group up with guild and alliance mates when a call goes out in alliance chat but thats it. im not in the hurry up and lets get done play style that this game has turned into. A-net once said there was no way the could give us more storage, change names or how our character looks too and look what happened. instead of trying to continually fix this game, leave it as is, un-nerf some stuff that still needs to be un-nerfed, give us 7 heros and fix or change the mistakes they made in GW1 with the release of GW2. i feel as i play GW1 that unless theres some solid info about GW2 and a release date, by next year there will be even less players left playing other then the big event weekends.

You are correct - it requires more management skills to manage a team of heroes than it does a single person. Whether it requires a player to be more "skilled" is a different matter.

In other words, I'm not sure that the "skill" that Guild Wars was trying to promote when it was first created were those related to managerial skills.

It was resource management - from skills, to team build, to energy management, to recharge of skill management, etc.

A thing long lost in PvE due to the way PvE mobs evolved - both in size, skills used and "help AI" cheats.


Lets face it - any given bar requires the same amount of skill to play regardless if the rest of the team is composed by humans or AI.

People only say that h/h is overpowered because the average level of the GW player is inferior to that of AI - both the henchmen/heroes and average player knows nothing about what is important and what is happening in the game, but the AI never hits the wrong button, have lag or cast a skill that requires something without the requirement being met.

Additionally AI will focus, something some humans can't do (although a big advantage of humans is engaging 2 or 3 targets simultaneously).

And, heroes of a player that knows what he is doing have a good selection of skills, runes and weapons, something an average player might not have.

That is why a hero (and heroes from professions with passive resource management like necros and paragon even have an extra advantage over players that think a bigger energy pool = energy management) is generally superior to an average human player.

But that doesn't mean the AI is OP. Just means the humans aren't learning/evolving due to several reasons that can be simply because the average player in GW has a very low amount of hours played and especially if we discount the farming hours from that amount.

The guilt of poor skill choice by the human players falls on the number of available skills, especially since many of the skills available are bad or inferior to a handful.

If the only available elite for monks was WoH you could bet all monks would run that skill instead of some other one. Why do you see warriors running Gladiator's Defense? Because it is there. And it is the same for every profession.

PvE only skills was a (bad) way of Anet fixing that by "telling" the players "here pick 3 of these, they are all frigging powerful and now go beat the game". It also allows Anet to escape with poor level design like in DoA.

But just because the Hero>average player, that doesn't mean the Hero is overpowered, because any slightly above average player>>>>>>>>>>hero.

Yeah, henchmen looks more like the average player, especially some of those ass builds with healing breeze and heal other.

Even 2 humans with 6 heroes it is hard because Dzagonur requires alot of running around. Some level of intelligent splitting would help this immensely. Knowing when to attack and when to fall back to the Whispers group if you need help. In fact, any mission where splitting would help is difficult to achieve in a H/H team. Not impossible but alot more difficult than in a full human team.

Managing 8 characters at the same time is more difficult than just managing 1 character. For H/H, you are managing a team all at the same time, in a full human team you are only managing your own character. For example, if you are hit by AoE damage, you run out of it right away, but since heroes are dumb they may not follow you out of the AoE enough. They could be busy casting something. This is why it takes a higher level of skill to manage a team than a single character. You also need to plan out where to flag heroes in order to prevent them from clumping and be susceptible to spells like spiteful spirit or even chaos storm.

I dont even think that is true. The AI is alot more stupid than the average player. They only know how to spam skills, they have poor energy management, and they try to shoot through walls without knowing that they dont even have line-of-sight! The average player shouldn't have this problem.

Since the AI tend to spam, a passive energy management like soul reaping works well which is why necro heroes are common. Paragon heroes works because they tend to clump together and be in shout range, but their attacks only work well in a flat plain since they can't judge line-of-sight, they can keep shooting at an obstacle trying to kill something behind it.