A discussion on 7 heroes

To all the people saying they would buy hero slots...this is why Anet is genius and you are not. I remember the good old days when updates were free. They have actually suckered us into thinking paying is normal rofleoflerofelrofllol.

To all the people saying they want a solo server...fine...but don't impose your garbage playstyle on my multiplayer game. If you want a singleplayer server, make it offline and also none of your crap can come on to the real online server. That is part of the reason the game is so phucked up...broken solo OP farmers who think they should be able to do whatever they wish in an online multiplayer game.

If perfect truth exist is over this sentence.

Bolded for truth. The only reason I'm so reluctant to agree to 7 heroes, is that behind the scene those people would STILL be complaining about how Shadow Form and this and that skill is making it too easy for pugs, even though the only instance of those stuff are OP is in speed clear pugs. While the same people would be complaining that pugs suck while not even participating in the multiplayer at all. People actively trying to make things harder for pugs while complaining about the pugs itself shouldn't be listened to.

The day I see a "Improving party search discussion", "Incentives for group play discussion", and "Adjusting areas for average pugs discussion" along with the "a discussion on 7 heroes" is the day where I would considering agreeing to 7 heroes.

Of course...there will be some that "claim" they don't care and that the horrible players are the reason regardless of skill....well then, I guess my solo server joke would be nice afterall, take away their influence on the economy, the server lag, and maybe the constant complaint about skills at the same time.

No, it's called reality. In the good old days you speak of, shortly after the free Sorrow's Furnace update, Anet announced it would not be possible to do such updates in the future. For obvious reasons, recources.

I won't deny those free updates were wonderful for us clients, but it was no longer doable for Anet it seems. They develop software and offer a service. We buy that service to use the software and play on their servers. 7 heroes would be an upgrade of that software, an extra option I would like to use to enrich my gaming experience. You don't have to be a genius to make up the decision if they are worth the money or not. It's the choice of the customer.

About your multiplayer view...Why should I be forced to play with you or any other stranger in PvE. PvP is the multiplayer game and was made for it. It is a 'want' to have a coop option in PvE, but since release you can use Anet's friends (henchies) to play with and it was marketed like that as seen on the box. 'Join with friends or play solo with a band of skilful henchmen.' Most of us question those 'skilful' henchmen. Heroes are upgraded henchmen and they introduced them when Nightfall got released. And it seems we like them.

Btw, I don't see Pug or random group even mentionned on the box, yet pug people think the game is and should be based around them.

Personally, I believe it's all about choice. I've pugged, played with Guildies, and soloed with Heroes and Henchies, and I've had fun doing all three.

It's all really down to what I feel like at the moment.

The ability to choose which option we want can only be a good thing.

Well..they already have that choice don't they? 1 Player + 3 Heroes + 4 henchmen, or 2 players + 6 heroes. The concept of choice is that all the options should be relatively equal...and right now they are not. Pugs already get burdened with having to actually form a group even before taking into account the skill fluctuation and/or connection problem. Using heroes pretty much instantly saves someone 10min+ just because they don't have to form a group, and I'm sure some people actually forgo a perfect guild/friend/pug group just to save that 10min.

Now its time to improve the other choice so that that people actually have a choice. Heroes already got numerous improvements ever since nightfall was out...while pugs haven't really been looked at. Z quests are a start but IMO a bit more incentives could be added in...since z quests can also be done with heroes.

Its funny because nearly every other online RPG gets it....and reward group play with extra drop/experience, having skills that gets better with more players (guild wars has that too...but its deemed overpowered), and many other incentives to make solo play and group play relatively equal. THEN if people still want to play solo, its truly their choice.

That just doesn't seem to make sense to charge for extra spots for heroes. I would love to be able to use more than three heroes and be able to shape the team I want to play with even more than I do now. It just seems silly to implement all of these new heroes and just let a player choose three of them.

If the choice was already here, we wouldn't have this thread. 1 player + 6 heroes (2accounts) comes close, but it's not practical.

Where do you get the idea that choice is about equal options? Choice is about multiple options and selecting. The playerbase already made the choice when Nightfall arrived and pugs disapeared instantly.

What I don't get is why you 'hardcore' puggers want to play with other players that don't want to play with you or other strangers in the first place. Only reason I can find is selfish behaviour and I understand that, we all want the best out of our free time. Nevertheless a minority should never force a majority to play their game imo. That you're part of a minority was proven the day Nightfall was released and afterwards. That doesn't mean they can't do something for you guys, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the majority.

Z-quests are not there to promote pugs, it was a smart way to recycle content. Pugs are just a side effect as other puggers get concentrated in the same areas too. Sure some other players who normally don't pug join the bandwagon and I have no problem with that at all, on the contrary. If only puggers would be so open minded.

Excuse me? We'd never play with someone like you in the first place - you, and people like you, are the reason PUGs died.

The entire point of playing H/H? We don't play with you. 7 hero parties are utterly incapable of affecting your game. They won't kill PUGs, I assure you - you've already done that.

But I know why you hate the idea of seven hero parties. You hate the idea that someone out there might be doing something you don't enjoy, and, even more horrifyingly, they might be having fun. You are bitter and spiteful, you want to limit the experience of others simply because they do not share your opinion.

Here's what I want to know: were you always like this, or did something trigger it? Parents beat you? Social reject as a kid? Suffer from autism? Either way, what's made you so hateful of the idea that other people might want to enjoy themselves, so obsessed with decrying something that would never detract from your experience?

Since when is it your game? Insanity much?

Funny, that blade can cut two ways:

Don't impose your garbage playstyle on my game.

no offence but i believe your a minority if u think for a multiplayer game = people must constantly group with complete randoms. If your jealous because some players are better then you in an online game by being able to solo stuff, i suggest taking a chill pill.

There is a big difference between content and game updates. Sorrow's Furnace was a content update. 7 Heroes is a game update. If your reality is having to pay for game updates, then your reality sucks. I'd rather go to the reality of many other games that have free updates.

You shouldn't.

So was PvE.

There is a big difference between henchies and heroes.

Who said that?

Wrong. I am a very good teammate in groups as anyone who has played with me will attest. It is people like YOU who killed grouping in this game...people who really don't give a rats ass about the health of the game and only care to play solo with 11 heroes.

Incorrect. If people are having fun thats great. If people are having fun at the expense of the game as a whole thats not great. There are people who use your EXACT argument in favor of overpowered farms and skills in the game. I don't really give a rats ass what your opinion is if your opinion is bad for the game I find fun.

This is a multiplayer online game. You play in the same world as me. The game you want is a singleplayer offline game where you have no effect on my world and I have no effect on yours.

Perhaps you misunderstood or perhaps I worded it wrong. Either way, I was responding to the people who want the singleplayer server. That would be fine, as long as that world does not mix with the online server.

You can't say that, because your playstyle is not the one that was imposed on.

Who said that?

lmao

The way your posting implies it. Same thing i said earlier: A multiplayer game does not revolve around grouping and people still grouped all the time. Have u done zbounty or zmish? do you need me to provide you ss or videos to proof that point? people who intend to solo didnt kill pugging. Morons, jackasses, inc whatever asshat you can think off drive some people off pugging. Just because everyone doesnt pug doesnt mean they shld be forced to. You dont own the game and the whole game doesnt revolve around you you know. OMG! you have not done this dungeon before. Kick. OMG i want you to go perma, refuse? kick. So why are u complaining?

I would pay for more heroes. It would fun making builds synergies with each other.

To all the naysayers, how does this effect you? The people who would play 7 heroes would still not be pugging..

I want 7 heroes, but I'll be damned if I pay for it.

So I wonder how many other people that read this thread are going to be completely avoiding the character 'Dark Dreamwind' if found ingame.

If you dont like people playing solo with AI, then you're the one playing the wrong game.

Go and find an MMO with 100% forced grouping instead and play that? Oh right, just about every MMO on the market can be soloed up untill the level cap, then you group up for the end game dungeons, like elite areas in GW ...

So, the solo options in GW are no different to other games. The only difference is that this game is instanced, so no meeting people while you play (the biggest pug killer), and also that you actually need a full party of 8 in most places in the game, compared to other MMOs where you can play through the whole game alone or with just one or two others.

The playerbase in GW is spread too thin over all the campaigns to make forced grouping possible, also thanks to the number of skills and free choice of 8, most people pick terrible builds, wheras in games like WoW, AoC and LOTRO, everyone gets the same fewer skills but which are always effective and worth bringing along.

But yea, surely none of this matters for why no one wants to pug in GW, so lets just be insane and blame it all on heroes.

and forced grouping was the reason why i quit wow for guild wars

IF certain people get their way, you'll be going back to WoW for the SAME REASON. Knock on wood that it doesn't happen.

That's your right as a customer, but judging and ridiculing people because they wouldn't mind to pay for the upgrade is cheap. I'm sure that all the poeple who want them, prefer to have them for free. But if the only choice is to pay for them or no 7 heroes at all, I wouldn't mind to pay for them.

The difference is the skillbar and armor/weapon setup. In a game that has many different areas and different opponents, it's normal people want to adjust the setup accordingly to what they think would be a good synergy or just to experiment.

No, PvE is an instanced game, we don't play in the same world. Our avatars can use the same towns to start from so we have the option to co-op an instanced area.


I think you're really playing the wrong game, but you don't really play it anymore like you posted a few times, just the forum game.

You're playing the wrong &^%!@! game. Multiplayer and Singeplayer has been an OPTION since DAY 1. I don't share my instances with you unless you're in my party. Never ever. You say we share the same world and yet we're worlds apart. This isn't WoW. Get a grip.

Where's the proof that pugs are minority....especially since people with heroes generally ignore everything in towns. When there's a Z Quest...I see almost equal number of people forming and players with a 4 on their head adding henchies and leaving. In places without players I don't see many people with heroes coming in and leaving either. (And yes I've sat in a lot of empty mission outposts just chatting, so I know I didn't "miss" them)

Choice is only about multiple options? I wish that is true....then I can ask for a buff to shadow form and like 90% of other skills without worrying about anything.

The whole point is that there are definitely incentives to avoid pugging even for SOCIAL people, and it has nothing to do with skills or attitude of players. I know this because I am seeing the same effect essential destroying my guild activities right now.

Here is a simplified outline of what happens:

Guildie 1: Hey guys, I'm doing the X mission right now...anyone want to help?

Me and guildie 2-6: Sure, we're just finishing up our Z quest right now, it'll probably only take 5-10 minutes.

Guildie 1: OK...

Me and guildie 2-6: *rushing to finish the mission in 10 minutes*...Hey guildie 1 we're coming right now.

Guildie 1: Ohh Nevermind, I figured I'll save a bit of time if I used my heroes.

~40 minutes later~

Guildie 1: Hey guys, I really need some help with Y mission, its far harder than the last one.

Guildie 2-6: *Silence*

~Repeat for several days/weeks~

Guildie 1 has left the guild.

Regardless of how skillful players are or how nice they are or how many players there are....being able to click a few buttons for full team is generally way too tempting, since it gives the illusion that you are doing stuff faster because no time is spent forming a group. If guildie 1 would have waited that 10 min, we could've probably done mission X in less than 20 min for 30 min total in comparison to his 40 min with heroes. AND we could've helped with the second harder mission without being interrupted again.

Never underestimate people's impatience. And do people seriously believe that with 7 heroes minimizing any time advantage a full player group has...that the remaining people won't jump ship to heroes instead?

Z Quest, whether intended or not, removed the barrier by making a lot of people gather in one place....of course if the mission actually takes a bit of strategy and/or skill discussion (ex. Eotn Dungeons)...there's a chance people would just go with heroes instead to "save time".

ITS NOT A CHOICE when one is so blatantly favourable regardless of every other variables. If everything is only about choice regardless of effectiveness....then ask ANet to leave shadow form, all PvE skills, and speed clear alone, and reverse all the nerfs ever done in PvE. Its only a choice and because its instanced, it affects no one else, right?

Now then...there's 2 ways to look at it. One is that heroes are "unbalanced" (notice the quotes) because of convenience, or its that full player groups are inherently disadvantaged by design.

Either way it means that there has to be some changes to encourage group play along with 7 heroes...or limit heroes. I prefer the grouping incentives + heroes option....

This happens to me a lot. And that's also exactly why I think "Get a good guild" is just a false, band-aid argument.

I want 7 heroes with pve skills. And if people think they're overpowered, gee, imagine a full team of 8 huamns who can follow directions and co-ordinate a strategy.

Some of the arguments against 7 heroes in this thread are some of the stupidest ever. But hey. What am I to stress that? It's not like you can convince them of anything. Because they're either:

A. Trolls

B. Playing the wrong game and has a different perception of GW than anet intended

C. Just plain self-centered idiots who think their opinion is right and will put up illogical arguments whenever they can just for the sake of being stubborn

Not giving out names, but if you're going to argue against 7 heroes, find a real reason for such a limitation.
It can't be denied that no matter the way of obtaining 7 heroes, it will be a huge success. Be it microtransactions (Which would be a huge financial success for anet), or a quest or whatever, there's no reason not to.

Pre Nightfall verus post Nightfall or forced pugging versus free will. If you don't see a difference in those two eras then you must be blind. We were forced to pug as henchies were not skillful enough because of their fixed bars. The cure was the introduction of heroes which ofcourse puggers will see as the downfall of this game.

I can counter argument the other things in your complete post but instead I'm gonna add that I wouldn't mind having both 'grouping incentives and the 7 heroes option', all within reason and common sense ofcourse. It's better imo to find common ground to stand on and try to achieve something together from there on.

The first half is one I agree with. The second part is where things get a bit tricky since "you're not in my gameworld" is a pretty risky argument since it can apply to any single game change one desires, from overpowered skills to Hello Kitty armor.

But still, I still feel that if playing with other players was accessible and fun that adding even 11 heroes wouldn't affect the pugging playstyle.

thats funny.. when i was in lfg for z bounty (justicar thommis) earlier almost every one was in lfg with 5 or 8, 6 or 8 human players. Out of the 12,13 groups in lfg, only like 1 or 2 has like 4/8 with 3 heroes in it. One of the player in lfg was asking for heroes with discordway. Why did that happen? because earlier, when we puggin to lfm people, the puggers THEMSELVES left without saying a word. So it was the puggers themselves that forced him to solo, when he had given lfg a chance. If you want to argue, go qq about certain aspects of the game being op.

You gave that people having heroes cause your guild to die. But we dont exactly know everything abt your guild and your activities. It could also be that your guild has done little to ensure members stay in your guild. If you like, you can always join the guild i am in. The leader and officer there are still doing stuff with each other human players and people are friendly . Also, if heroes were so insanely great, why did guildie 1 ask for help with Y mission when he could just do with heroes?



People would go with heroes to "save time" for missions that req strategy for example eotn dungeons? have you tried doing justicar thommis solo with henchies and heroes before?

the incentives for grouping are already there. Can heroes use pve skills? can heroes use the correct pve skill at the correct time? can heros know when to drop spirits at the correct place (e.g fs)? can heroes know when to move out of a ward and when not to? can heroes know how to move by themselves and not pull aggro? can heroes know when to run back especially if too many groups have been pulled?

in almost every zbounty and mish that i done grouping with people, very few people wants heroes. Once i added olias after getting 5 other human players because i believe he has a good mm skillset and one person asked me why did i do that instead of getting a human mm. After i told him that, he left the group straightaway

the way i see it. Heros didnt kill off pugging. Its the players who forced some of them to switch to heroes. Majority are still lfg. Whats the point of lfg if u dont have a certain skillset cos no one who pugs will take you? and that, belongs to the minority who went with heroes.

This is the argument that keeps coming up, and is frankly the worst, and most ineffectual argument you could possibly use.

I know I'm not the only one who will say the only reason I bought this game because it was stated from the beginning that you could play the game solo if you so chose. If it had said on the box that it was multiplayer only and that all single player content would be offline, I would simply not have bought this game at all.

Anet knew who they were marketing to. And it was to people like me, and all those who want the option of BOTH SOLO AND MULTIPLAYER. They marketed is as a choice.

All to true,

Concerning the PvP part, ofcourse we need only to be with people,
That is the most challenging experience, no hench or hero should be allowed
in what form of PvP. so hero battle's..sry, its no real PvP to mine opinion.

But PvE.. Loved it from day 1. And mostly the choice that you can play solo
if you want.
May 2005.. A whole new playground opent up. very nice guild we had that day. (ok still :P)
But as a hard working father, I loved it sometimes to roam
just on my own. Kids all to bed, wife reading a book, and me relaxing with GW.

Now, we all know every corner in the GW world. Played every mission and
quest over and over. See people go away and new people comming.
And yes I still like wandering in GW even after 4 years with almost 7000 hours
on the counter.
But things have changed.
The things we do now "even with nice guilds and alliances" is grindin for titles
Speed clears in Urgozh, UW , FoW, etc. With some luck a dungeon so now
and than.
What changed things a litle where the Zaishen quests, but they start to stall
to now.
Try to get a nice random party to play in one of the above places just for
fun to have a nice evening with many laughs and no hury.

Hard to find arn't they.

So, as I speak for my self. I would love 7 hero's just to have relax fun teams.
With builds that even the wurst noobs wouldnt use. But o men wouldt that
give a lot of fun.
And as I said. That won't stop me playing with real people. Aslong there is no
limit on what build I can play.
My guidies know me and respect that I often play with funny builds.

Really there is no good reason alive that would justify not allowing 7 hero's
in the PvE world.

Gimme 7 hero's or gimme this , either way i'm happy.

I am playing alot more with people these days with ZQ making pugs a tad more popular and my guild being a bit more active now that ZQ are up and running but I do still run stuff on my own when noones around and having to take henchmen with really shite builds just gets on my tits.

I really doubt it. You've always been (in blunt and honest terms) a fun-hating asshole in these threads; why would I believe you'd be any different ingame?

Good thing 7 heroes would not be at expense of the game, then. They'd improve it.

This is an instanced game. I do NOT play in the same world as you. Neither of us has an effect on the other. Ergo the only reason you can dislike the idea of 7 heroes is because you are a spiteful little person.



But every Guild Wars server is already a singleplayer server with multiplayer support. We call this "instanced gameplay."

7 hero gameplay will never affect a PUG player like you.

Except you want to impose your playstyle on us. Why would we want that? You're probably a horribly unpleasant person to play with, just as you are to speak to here.

Come on anet. Implement this single update for the content update plz plz plz plz pzlz plz plz pzlz plzzzzzzz plooooooooooo0000000000oooooooox

Meh...I shouldn't have got involved in this thread (again). Too late now I guess.

About as many as are avoiding your posts.

No its not. Anybody who would pay for 7 heroes IMO is nuts, just like I think anybody who paid for a bunch of other stuff in this game is nuts. It did give me a new respect for Anet though...in their ability to exploit the nuts.

I will post more on this later, because a bunch of people seem to be using this argument to "prove" me wrong. The argument that this is an instanced game and thus nobody or nothing affects anybody else is RETARDED.

First, everything input into the game at all affects me whether I use it or not or whether you use it or not. If Anet puts 7 heroes into the game, it immediately affects you and me whether I use them or not (assuming I play the game).

Second, you can't say that if you do something it doesn't affect me because you "aren't in the same world". You are in the same game as me. I don't care if its instanced or not. This is not Mario Bros. You can't say anything should be input in the game as long as you have fun with it. You are in the same game as me...I have as much a right to argue something SHOULDN't be in the game as you do to argue that something SHOULD be in the game.

Sure singleplayer has been an option from day 1...but the singleplayer on day 1 is a far cry from the singleplayer people are asking for today. Henchmen made the game a multiplayer game FIRST with a singleplayer option. Now people want a singleplayer game FIRST and a multiplayer option. Big difference.

And you are another one using the instanced argument. I responded to that, but more on that later as well when I get to Zahr's post.

That is fine, and you have the right to that opinion. That doesn't mean that Anet intended for the game to be a solo game to the degree people want it to be now though. It is pretty clear that Anet wanted people to have the multiplayer experience, or they wouldn't have originally designed their game the way they did.

From my experience, people in game are generally easier to get along with than people on these forums (such as you). Thus, I am generally also easy to get along with there as well.

According to who? You have factual evidence of this claim?

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. You ARE in the same world as me whether you see it or not. I see so many people saying "7 heroes wouldn't affect you so why do you care?" Because it is in MY world that I play in is why. Instanced or not doesn't mean anything in this case if we have the ability to interact in the same instances. You might as well say if somebody drops a bomb in Africa it doesn't affect me because I live in America. Your argument is stupid.

It is stupid for more reasons than just that. Would you say "X skill doesn't affect you and you don't have to use it thus it should be in the game" as well? Would you say "I am having fun duping, and since it doesn't affect you it should be in the game because I'm having fun with it".
What I'm trying to say here is you have to give GOOD REASONS 11 heroes should be in the game...if you just say "because it would be fun" or "because I can use them and it wouldn't affect you" or "you don't have to use them", then your argument is worthless and I probably won't respond to it again after this. Me and Bryant have been over this a lot in the past (probably in this very thread even...I don't remember), and he is probably one of the only people who gives any legit arguments whatsoever in favor of this, even though I still disagree with him too.

The way I look at it...the Guild Wars servers are multiplayer with singleplayer support.

Who said I was a Pug player. >.>

You are arguing for 7 heroes. If that happened, it could impose on some peoples' playstyle. It would not impose on yours because instead you want a CHANGE to the game to FIT your playstyle regardless of other people. This is just semantics at this point. In reality, numerous changes to the game over the years have imposed on my playstyle...but I am not whining about that here. YOUR PLAYSTYLE WOULD NOT BE THE ONE IMPOSED ON if 7 HEROES WAS IMPLEMENTED. /endrant

If they do do it, it will probably cost us $9.99 or £6.99 per extra hero allowed in our characters' parties.

:-(

Eh, given the massive amount of restrictions going against the multiplayer, I can't say I agree.

Looks like I need to break out the old image that explains GW was always meant to be a singleplayer supporting game.

Has this been suggested like a million times.

Although I do find it nice to have seven heroes since I could set up hero builds that can be better than henchies, ANet probably won't implement this for a million years, thinking it may be overpowered. I really don't need seven heroes, I simply whip out my discordway heroes, two healers, and two other henchmen which vary depend on location.

I actually kinda like that idea, incorporating your hero builds into the available henchmen in the area.

Well...the restrictions were certainly a problem Anet never fully dealt with. Over time they did remove many, but not all of them. I don't think the restrictions are evidence that they didn't want a multiplayer game though. If anything they wanted a multiplayer game but didn't fully know how to do it. The fact that the game was PvP grounded originally but had many flaws sort of shows this.

Looks like I need to break out the old counter to that image, which states that henchmen are not the same as heroes, and which also states that the box has many things printed on it that Anet no longer follows. Frown.

While I'm posting, I'd like to address the people who say "I want 7 heroes because people are annoying to play with". Have you ever considered that maybe you are the annoying one? Just a thought.

On my Nightfall box it says: 'Heroes at your command: Recruit a team of fearless heroes who will fight at your side and follow orders in combat. Customise armour, equip weapons and lead your team to battle'

Nightfall was the last campaign and with Eotn we got even more heroes and they're still here today, which prooves Anet still follows the solo option. All we ask is that complete team of heroes mentionned in the quote.

Well... that 'skillful'.... Alesia...

Wishfull thinking was that on that bo, XD.


Once GW2 is out, this could be a maybe.
For now, it's a NO.

That was a bit of a mistake of mine: I'm not saying that they didn't want a multiplayer game. I'm more saying that it's difficult to advocate for preserving multiplayer when I find it drastically limited and stressful.

This is largely stuff we've gone over before. I still feel that if playing with others was accessible and open-ended that heroes wouldn't be as shunned as they are, and implementing an unlimited cap of heroes wouldn't have any effect.

I still don't think that one should be more advocated over the other. Choice is a huge determining factor in games these days, especially with one such as solo and co-op play. Both need an emphasis, and both sides need to accept the views of each other.

If you want to play with others, that should be easy to do and enjoyable. The same should go for going alone.

Man, this is going nowhere until an anet representative hops in.
Even with the huge playerbase in favor of 7 heroes, all we're doing is saying the same thing we said from the start and that is stressing our reasoning for 7 heroes.

*sigh*
Come on anet.You said you didn't know what to put for the next content update. Yet you have a prize winner here -_-