Stuck with the earth prayers/avatar of balthazar derv build

Winterclaw

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

Victorious Sweep plus AoM or AoD FTW.

Enchanted Haste and Harrier's Grasp would probably be pretty good in PvP. If you have 2 enchantments on you, Pious Restoration is a good way to remove enchantments (if you don't have AoD).

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
Yes.. but there aren't any circumstances which it is useful. But i'm done with argueing this same thing, listen to good dervishes and accept Balthazar sucks, or stay on the same level as Sir Pandra Pierva. Personal attacks, eh? I guess you didn't read my line about 99% of the time it's more useful to use something else?

I'm agreeing that it's far from the most useful elite on the Dervish bar (I tend to use Lyssa, Dwayna or EDA myself). I just want to point out that there's a difference between a skill that's only occasionally useful and one that's outright bad.

Stormlord Alex

Stormlord Alex

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Beyond the Forest of Doom, past the Cavern of Agony... on Kitten & Puppy Island

Soul of Melandru [sOm]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
I just want to point out that there's a difference between a skill that's only occasionally useful and one that's outright bad. And Balth is of the latter. Now you see that...
Welcome to the fold, young Dervish.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
Personal attacks, eh? I guess you didn't read my line about 99% of the time it's more useful to use something else?

I'm agreeing that it's far from the most useful elite on the Dervish bar (I tend to use Lyssa, Dwayna or EDA myself). I just want to point out that there's a difference between a skill that's only occasionally useful and one that's outright bad. I read your line. It's not even useful 1% of the time. Name ONE situation you would take it over any other elite. There is a difference between occasionally useful and outright bad - AoB is just outright bad.

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

I can personally only think of two uses for AoB that are used with some regularity. A minion army destroyer in AB with banishing sweep and the inherent holy damage and Temple of the Damned because of all the undead. Those are only two instance which, I'm sad to say, does not even come close to making 1%. AoB is bad. There is no defense for it. It is used in a couple of very very niche builds with no practical application outside of the setting those niche builds were designed for.

When I see another dervish using AoB I chuckle as I wade into the mod with my lyssa build and out damage them and yet somehow still manage to survive without that pointless armor bonus. I laugh as I hear the distinctive sound of attack skills canceling on them because I already took out their intended target group with a single attack chain. I get a kick out of watching them try to farm undead in Kryta and get blinded into oblivion while I, in my swanky little melandru mow right through the undead menace and get my loots. what I'm trying to say is any situation where you would use Balthazar, outside of the AB build since it does work fantastically well, another form could do the job better and that my friend makes for a BAD skill and an ABYSMALLY BAD elite.

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

Young?

I used it for Gate of Madness, actually. Armour helped for tanking Shiro when he switched from Riposting Shadows to Impossible Odds, holy damage helped for taking the Lich down fast (he doesn't spend much time using skills, from memory, he just has attacks from hell) as well as helping with the Portal Wraiths, and the speed boost helped with luring mobs and moving between shrines.

To go through the others:
Ebon Dust: Other members of the party were concentrating on hexes rather than conditions, and I didn't want to get the Blind back interfering with breaking Scars with Wild Blow.

Vow of Strength: Interferes with Wild Blow

Arcane Zeal: Not spamming spells

Avatar of Dwayna: Not spamming skills enough

Avatar of Grenth: Neither Shiro nor Khilbron use enchantments

Avatar of Lyssa: Close competition for the extra damage against skills, but I didn't figure the Lich would be using skills enough for it.

Avatar of Melandru: Didn't want to burn all the energy.

Pious Renewal: Didn't seem useful

Vow of Silence: Neither Shiro not Khilbron use targetted spells.

Reaper's Sweep: Didn't want Deep Wound coming back when he Impossible Oddsed

Wounding Strike: See above.

Anything from Wind Prayers: Wasn't carrying that line.

Lyssa was close competition (and was what I brought for Imperial Sanctum), but in short in this particular case the unfocused buffs Balthazar gave happened to be what I was looking for.

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
Young?

I used it for Gate of Madness, actually. Armour helped for tanking Shiro when he switched from Riposting Shadows to Impossible Odds, holy damage helped for taking the Lich down fast (he doesn't spend much time using skills, from memory, he just has attacks from hell) as well as helping with the Portal Wraiths, and the speed boost helped with luring mobs and moving between shrines.

To go through the others:
Ebon Dust: Other members of the party were concentrating on hexes rather than conditions, and I didn't want to get the Blind back interfering with breaking Scars with Wild Blow.

Vow of Strength: Interferes with Wild Blow

Arcane Zeal: Not spamming spells

Avatar of Dwayna: Not spamming skills enough

Avatar of Grenth: Neither Shiro nor Khilbron use enchantments

Avatar of Lyssa: Close competition for the extra damage against skills, but I didn't figure the Lich would be using skills enough for it.

Avatar of Melandru: Didn't want to burn all the energy.

Pious Renewal: Didn't seem useful

Vow of Silence: Neither Shiro not Khilbron use targetted spells.

Reaper's Sweep: Didn't want Deep Wound coming back when he Impossible Oddsed

Wounding Strike: See above.

Anything from Wind Prayers: Wasn't carrying that line.

Lyssa was close competition (and was what I brought for Imperial Sanctum), but in short in this particular case the unfocused buffs Balthazar gave happened to be what I was looking for. Ebon Dust Aura would have been better.

What do I win?

For demolishing minion armies, run heart of holy flame and an elite that doesn't suck. In fact, melandru is really, really good in the undead areas thanks to condition spam.

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

FAIL! The lich shouldn't even enter the equation there. He's easy to take down withou the Holy damage from Balthazar. The extra armor vs Impossible Odds is foolish. By the time he hits the point where he will use it you should be able to spike him down in two or three attack chains. In the end you raped your party Damage output and exposed them to a potential wipe because you preferred to tank instead of do real damage. Shiro is not about drawing the fight out and being the last one standing. Shiro is about a fast kill. If you're the last one standing in a party by virtue of your tanking then you'll join your party shortly.

Personally I use Lyssa or EDA for Shiro and here is why. Lyssa spikes and with the right attack skills by the time he hits impossible odds you can spike him down before he gets the chance to do it again and wipe your party. EDA is generally the superior choice because the odds of him landing an impossible odds blow and putting the condition on you is slim to none. He has to hit you to transfer the condition. If you should take a blind then your monk should be able to hook you up since a competent team will have their casters spread out while you draw his attention and WB Battle scars.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
I used it for Gate of Madness, actually. Armour helped for tanking Shiro when he switched from Riposting Shadows to Impossible Odds
I just took any random build as long as it had wild blow for that. You don't need to actually tank shiro, you just hold the aggro and your monks keep you there. Never once failed the mission after doing it almost 10 times with H+H.. so yea.

Quote: holy damage helped for taking the Lich down fast As Str0b0 said, the Lich is a joke.

Quote: as well as helping with the Portal Wraiths Why were these a problem? And i don't suppose AoB saved you from eruption??

Quote:
and the speed boost helped with luring mobs The faster you run, the more chance you have of breaking aggro.

Quote:
and moving between shrines. Did your whole team have a speed boost? Or did you run off ahead then stop just before the shrine for them to catch up before you got owned so hard?

MBP

MBP

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

Arizona

Clanless Fraggers

R/Mo

I'd rather go Lyssa with /W for wild blow and finish the mission ten times easier.

AoB is crap compared to any other avatar even Grenth is better, deal with it.

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

Quote:
You don't need to actually tank shiro, you just hold the aggro and your monks keep you there.
Every little bit helps.

Quote:
The lich is a joke
A potentially hard-hitting joke. He normally does
go down fast, but reducing the risk that he'll take someone down with him is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-the-noob Why were these a problem? And i don't suppose AoB saved you from eruption?? No. Interrupts, condition removal, and just plain getting-in-their-face-early was more important there, with Sand Shards to cover if I did get hit by it.

Quote:
The faster you run, the more chance you have of breaking aggro. On the other hand, it means you're in the danger zone where you might get hit by an overlapping patrol for less time.

Quote:
Did your whole team have a speed boost? Or did you run off ahead then stop just before the shrine for them to catch up before you got owned so hard? Neither. Groups of 3-4 Margonites aren't that tough.

Being a little less flippant, the speedboost was enough to make sure I was at the front of the party when we hit the next shrine and could start gathering aggro as they arrived.

To be honest, though, and this applies to both of the above posts

Obviously, you lot are kneejerking, so we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree here. It's certainly inferior to the other avatars, with the possible exception of the nerfed Grenth. However, I still maintain my position that there's a difference between being worse than the alternatives and being outright bad.

Think of it this way: If for some reason Avatar of Balthazar was the only Dervish elite you had access to (for a restricted skillset style tournament, for example), are you really that sure you'd take Skull Crack over it? Or a nonelite? What if, say, Melandru was available, but the skills that synergise with it weren't?

That, in my mind, is the difference. There are some skills that are just plain bad, others just get pushed out by the competition in most situations. Balthazar is, IMO, in the second category.

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

No there is no kneejerking about it. The skill is bad. The speed boost is pointless. I don't think in the entire time of my playing guildwars, and I've had it since it went live, have I ever found the need for a speed boost in normal PvE. The only time I've ever used a speed boost is running and running ain't PvE. As for the armor I'd rather run EDA and and Armor of Sanctity. At least that way I'd be an asset to the team by way of melee shutdown and I'd still have the same, if not better damage reduction than AoB could give me through it's +40 armor boost.

You say there is a difference between a skill being bad and it just being worse than the alternatives. I fail to see the difference. If all your other alternative skills are better than AoB then that makes AoB bad. In your example of a restricted skillset tournament, which is flawed anyway since AoB has NO practical PvP applications, I would honestly rather go in without an elite than take AoB because I'm sure I could find a regular skill that would serve me better than AoB. I'd take Melandru even without Wearying strike just because it at least provides a valuable bonus in its condition immunity. I've run AoB, I've capped all the avatars and out of all of them AoB has the least utility.

You can't just say." It's not bad it's just that everything else is better." That makes it bad. Just flat out bad. AoB is right up there with Otyugh's Cry as one of the worst skills in the game, made even worse by the fact that it's supposed to be an elite. I don't get why you even bother defending it? Even if you are 100% right, you're not but for the sake of argument let's say that you are, it's a bad skill because the majority of experienced Dervish players view it as a bad skill. It's a bad skill because a lot of people thinking of taking a dervish in a group will kick you if you have AoB in your bar and refuse to substitute it. I know I do it on a regular basis with my groups and I know I'm not alone. It doesn't add extra damage by itself. It doesn't have any skills that synergize with it to increase your damage output, like melandru and wearying. It gives you a pretty crappy buff in the form of + armor and + speed. Armor buffs do not mitigate degen and it won't mitigate elemental damage either so basically you get more armor vs. physical which any competent dervish should be able to mitigate through earth prayers without wasting an elite on it. I won't go into the speed buffs again.

You can agree to disagree all you want but the FACT of the matter is this; Avatar of Balthazar = FAIL!

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

I see. It's labelled 'bad' because everyone kneejerks it to be a bad skill. Nooooow I understand. *eyeroll*

Just like people used to discriminate against anything that isn't in the 'holy trinity', although with a little more justification.

Speedboosts can be useful in PvE when the squishy is kiting (yes, the AI DOES kite occasionally) or when you really do want to get from point A to point B quickly.

Also, unless there's something missing from the skill description, the armour boost DOES help against elemental damage. That the argument can be made that you usually don't need it says more about Mystic Regeneration than it does about Balthazar.

I'd certainly expect to justify it on use - but I don't think it's indefensible.

Going on a tangent... Have you noticed that Otyugh's Cry has been majorly reworked since release? It at least looks like it does something now...

PS Some times when speed boosts might be useful (not usually essential, but helpful):
Great Northern Wall, Hard Mode. Big chase scene with the mobs having the inherent bonus from Hard Mode.
Divinity Coast: One of the Chosen sometimes requires you to move quickly to rescue them from a gang of Tengu - although I haven't known them to be ganked before normal-speed characters can get to them in a while, so this may have been fixed.
Aurora Glade: Running crystals. Especially if going for bonus.
Moddok Crevice: Chasing down the runners
Jennur's Horde: Running Lights
Abaddon's Gate: Pulling back when he breaks loose
Heart of the Shiverpeaks: Running kegs

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

Ok you got me on the elemental damage. I misread something. As far as it being indefensible it is! How can you possibly defend it except in the very rare cases that you mentioned, like the completely unlikely capped skillset tourney? You admit that the other avatars, with the exception of Grenth, outshine AoB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
It's certainly inferior to the other avatars, with the possible exception of the nerfed Grenth.
So by your own admission it is an inferior skill choice in light of your alternatives in PvE. Now if it comes down to picking an inferior skill or a superior skill then yeah it becomes indefensible in any instance unless you can honestly tell me with a straight face that you would willfully use an inferior skill just to prove a point? That is your word there too inferior.

I'd like to talk about that word there too if I may. Inferior, in this instance it is used to mean of comparatively low grade or quality or performing in a way that is substandard or mediocre. Hmm sounds an awful lot like bad to me. Let's check shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Websters Unabridged Dictionary bad-of poor or inferior quality; defective; deficient;inadequate or below standard; not satisfactory for use Yup definitely bad. The definition of bad even uses the word inferior so open and shut case there.

Another telling phrase you chose to use.

Quote: No, it's because experienced dervishes know what they're talking about, but you don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
That the argument can be made that you usually don't need it says more about Mystic Regeneration than it does about Balthazar. I have to agree with you. It says that Mystic Regeneration by itself outshines AoB, a non elite skill is better than the elite buffs. The same cannot be said for the other Avatar buffs. As for your speed boost instances I've never had the need to use them, not even HM Great Northern Wall because my Dervish build can kill the entire Charr force in HM with time to spare to run to the end. I owe that mostly to the fact that I don't use AoB. All the other instances are either not worth a mention, i.e. any time you have to get from point A to point B in a mission for any reason your normal running speed suffices even for bonuses, or can be solved by simply bringing along a non elite skill, i.e. like chasing down a target. Dervishes have crippling skills for a reason.

Personally I think that that should be the acid test for whether an elite is a bad elite or not. If you can achieve the same results with a non elite skill of the same profession then it is a bad skill. By that rationale AoB fails on every account.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
I see. It's labelled 'bad' because everyone kneejerks it to be a bad skill. Nooooow I understand. *eyeroll*
Speedboosts can be useful in PvE when the squishy is kiting (yes, the AI DOES kite occasionally) or when you really do want to get from point A to point B quickly. Snare > speedboost for catching kiters. [skill]Crippling Sweep[/skill] is ftw.

When you justify a speedboost, Pious Haste for me is the strongest speed buff a derv has. You could use the enchant stripping of it to time it with say, Vital Boon for insta heal. If you know what your doing, you can use it inbetween mobs knowing full well it'll end before your reach the next. This is without even needing a cancel stance.

Tbh i think an AoB thread should just be made so everything like this can go in there. I've seen 5 threads or so quite recently that just end up in an argument about this crappy skill.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
I see. It's labelled 'bad' because everyone kneejerks it to be a bad skill. Nooooow I understand. *eyeroll*
Doesn't take a pro overlook advantages of other skills.

Quote:
Just like people used to discriminate against anything that isn't in the 'holy trinity', although with a little more justification.
'Holy Trinity' was for mega puggers who don't know anything else anyway,and besides the newer things allow flexibility.

Quote:
Speedboosts can be useful in PvE when the squishy is kiting (yes, the AI DOES kite occasionally) or when you really do want to get from point A to point B quickly. how about a non-elite speed boost? [skill]pious haste[/skill]

Quote:
Also, unless there's something missing from the skill description, the armour boost DOES help against elemental damage. That the argument can be made that you usually don't need it says more about Mystic Regeneration than it does about Balthazar. Enchantments for protection>petty armour buff:including the fact that most AoB dervs use half of their bar for enchantments/defense and using like...eh?1 skill slot for an attack and res or just 2 attack skills that have no use?

Quote:
Going on a tangent... Have you noticed that Otyugh's Cry has been majorly reworked since release? It at least looks like it does something now... Thats because it had like the worst effect in the game.even mending had a stronger effect imo...

Quote:
PS Some times when speed boosts might be useful (not usually essential, but helpful):
Great Northern Wall, Hard Mode. Big chase scene with the mobs having the inherent bonus from Hard Mode.
Divinity Coast: One of the Chosen sometimes requires you to move quickly to rescue them from a gang of Tengu - although I haven't known them to be ganked before normal-speed characters can get to them in a while, so this may have been fixed.
Aurora Glade: Running crystals. Especially if going for bonus.
Moddok Crevice: Chasing down the runners
Jennur's Horde: Running Lights
Abaddon's Gate: Pulling back when he breaks loose
Heart of the Shiverpeaks: Running kegs *cough* again,[skill]pious haste[/skill]

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
how about a non-elite speed boost? [skill]pious haste[/skill] Involves enchantment-stripping, and not at a time you can control (without a second stance as a breaker, anyway; although you might be able to time it so you put up an enchantment you can afford to lose when it's about to end). It also doesn't stack with Conviction - neither does Balthazar, but it overlaps instead.

(Mind you, I tend to prefer to use more enchantments over Conviction to fuel Windwalker's, Mystic Sweep and Mystic Regen, but that's beside the point.)

jesh

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
No it's not. What're you gona keep stopping to remove every single snare? VoS runner > all avatar runners. Dwayna is pretty damn good.. and in the Frozen Forest I'd like to see a VoS runner survive.

MBP

MBP

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

Arizona

Clanless Fraggers

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
Involves enchantment-stripping, and not at a time you can control (without a second stance as a breaker, anyway; although you might be able to time it so you put up an enchantment you can afford to lose when it's about to end). It also doesn't stack with Conviction - neither does Balthazar, but it overlaps instead.

(Mind you, I tend to prefer to use more enchantments over Conviction to fuel Windwalker's, Mystic Sweep and Mystic Regen, but that's beside the point.)
You can very easily control the enchantment striping. Once you recast PH it removes a enchantment...there's also something called timing...involves counting I've heard.

hey! guess what happens when you don't have any enchants on when pious haste ends?

nothing wow!

use it smart and it's no problem..besides you also want your enchantments to end sometimes.

Quote:
I know, i was talking about AoB...........

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesh
Dwayna is pretty damn good.. and in the Frozen Forest I'd like to see a VoS runner survive. Dwana runner is plenty capable in certain situations...true it's not as versatile as VOS runner but it's still a nice way to run.

Darkside

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

D/

I like how this turned into a Bash party against AoB.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesh
Dwayna is pretty damn good
and in the Frozen Forest I'd like to see a VoS runner survive. It's a known fact VoS runner > Avatar runners.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
Involves enchantment-stripping, and not at a time you can control (without a second stance as a breaker, anyway; although you might be able to time it so you put up an enchantment you can afford to lose when it's about to end). It also doesn't stack with Conviction - neither does Balthazar, but it overlaps instead.

(Mind you, I tend to prefer to use more enchantments over Conviction to fuel Windwalker's, Mystic Sweep and Mystic Regen, but that's beside the point.) then you obviously suck at timing,and most probably playing dervish by the looks of it

Rushin Roulette

Rushin Roulette

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Right here

Ende

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles
I'll pay everyone who comes up with a reason for using AoB a large sum of money ! You can sync dance with wammos, you can agro everyone on a map before your team is ready, you can ermmmm...... run.... thats about it. You didnt state you needed any "usefull" reason for using AoB.

Where can I pick up my money?

Although AoB + remove conditions spell (cant remember the name of the non-requ. ranger signet) is sort of like a weaker version of AoM with running instead of +100 HP. Its usefull if you want to run someone to an outpost... and the party quest in vabi, or the other quests mentioned before which eintail loads of running from A to Z over every other letter in the alphabet.

Each Avatar has its ups and downs... just a shame that AoB has more downs than ups, same goes for AoG.

And pure running wise AoB> any other single running skills (although Pious haste comes a close second) because the main focus is on getting through an area as fast as possible while ignoring the damage as much as possible before zoning. Thats where the +40 AR comes in handy as its a passive bonus which works while you are running and taking damage. All you need is a condition/hex removal, knockdown blocking skill and a self healing (troll Unguant for example) for the rare periods where you dont have any agro mobs after your sorry ass.

But thats that for my AoB Fanboiism . Cant think of any other real reason to use it in PvE which other elites + another skill couldnt do better.

Valeria

Valeria

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Germany

PaRe

W/

I really wonder how someone can think of AoB as the worst one? constant running and armor that can't be stripped of you by enchant removal. Perfect for fighting undead because of the holy damage. Especially the running is nice for the easyer PvE areas

Melandru is nice if you are in an area where you get constantly blinded but in other areas the worst i have to deal with is bleeding or weakness but the monks usually remove that in a couple of seconds. The high energy cost sucks though.

Lyssa can deal some nice damage and the energy bonus is very nice as well.

Grenth is not very useful in general PvE

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

Ok I guess you jumped in this thread late Valeria because the points you've made regarding AOB have been covered. Constant running is useless in general PvE. the only time that you need a constant speed boost is if you are running someone somewhere and running ain't PvE. Undead are not so prevalent in the game as to warrant unstrippable holy damage. Even if they were Heart of Holy Flame if the superior choice for holy damage conversion because even when it is stripped it adds burning. Sure the armor bonus cuts damage to half but, as has been pointed out Mystic Regen can handle the damage you do take with vital boon for a quick spike heal. One or both of those skills should be on a good dervishes bar anyway.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette
And pure running wise AoB> any other single running skills (although Pious haste comes a close second) because the main focus is on getting through an area as fast as possible while ignoring the damage as much as possible before zoning. Thats where the +40 AR comes in handy as its a passive bonus which works while you are running and taking damage. All you need is a condition/hex removal, knockdown blocking skill and a self healing (troll Unguant for example) for the rare periods where you dont have any agro mobs after your sorry ass. So, you are vulnerable to EVERYTHING whilst running. Stopping constantly to remove that cripple, to remove that hex snare, to apply fleeting stability and stop every 20 secs or so to renew it. VoS gives you immunity to every hex snare (bar frozen burst). You stop literally, for nothing. Dark escape is enough damage reduction whilst giving a speedboost.. something AoB as an elite tries to do. Melee can't catch me, whereas they swarm you when you stop to remove every single thing you're hit by.

AoB runners are DEFINATELY not the best available to a derv. Period.

SpeedyG99

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2007

Pirates Of The Searing [YoHo]

Mo/E

I really don't see the hate for AoB, i think its a decent avatar, AoM and AoD are vgood, but AoB is great if you like to tank a bit

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyG99
I really don't see the hate for AoB, i think its a decent avatar, AoM and AoD are vgood, but AoB is great if you like to tank a bit tanking is almost never needed...

MBP

MBP

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

Arizona

Clanless Fraggers

R/Mo

tanking is almost never needed?

Well AoB tanking is pointless but in general a tank is in almost every party you can think of.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBP
tanking is almost never needed?

Well AoB tanking is pointless but in general a tank is in almost every party you can think of. meh.h/h>pugs anyday...

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyG99
I really don't see the hate for AoB, i think its a decent avatar, AoM and AoD are vgood, but AoB is great if you like to tank a bit
Did you not see the other thread i made? Take this discussion there now kkthx.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBP
a tank is in almost every party you can think of. I guess you weren't including my hero / hench teams?

MBP

MBP

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

Arizona

Clanless Fraggers

R/Mo

Is there usually a melee in your h/h? or is the melee you?

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBP
tanking is almost never needed?

Well AoB tanking is pointless but in general a tank is in almost every party you can think of. you dont seem to know the difference between tanks and frontliners.

tank- only used effectively in areas like DoA/FoW. absorbs almost all of the team's damage and holds aggro. survival>damage.

frontliner- usually warrior/dervish/assassin. characters that share most of the aggro and keep mobs off the backline. damage>survival.

MBP

MBP

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

Arizona

Clanless Fraggers

R/Mo

well I lump em together..oh well

I've always referred to melee/frontline as tank along with many other players

also when you see people trying to form a party for anywhere and they want some kind of melee...it's GLF more need tank etc...even though they're not looking for an OF warrior.

just an observation

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBP
You can very easily control the enchantment striping. Once you recast PH it removes a enchantment...there's also something called timing...involves counting I've heard.

hey! guess what happens when you don't have any enchants on when pious haste ends?

nothing wow!

use it smart and it's no problem..besides you also want your enchantments to end sometimes. It's not an insurmountable drawback, but it is a drawback.

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBP
well I lump em together..oh well

I've always referred to melee/frontline as tank along with many other players

also when you see people trying to form a party for anywhere and they want some kind of melee...it's GLF more need tank etc...even though they're not looking for an OF warrior.

just an observation yes. these are the idiots that dont know what an OF warrior is. these are the idiots that think assasins suck because the generally cant take as much as warriors and all warriors should be running healing breeze and dolyak signet. dont lump yourself them. try to learn the difference between builds. its kinda REALLY important when trying to have a discussion and you are using a term that has a different meaning from what you wanted to say.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBP
Is there usually a melee in your h/h? or is the melee you? On the left it says "Profession: D/"

I'll leave you to figure it out..

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
yes. these are the idiots that dont know what an OF warrior is. these are the idiots that think assasins suck because the generally cant take as much as warriors and all warriors should be running healing breeze and dolyak signet. dont lump yourself them. try to learn the difference between builds. its kinda REALLY important when trying to have a discussion and you are using a term that has a different meaning from what you wanted to say. warriors arent the only profession who can tank!:O
just...a little less effective in some cases

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

notice the word "generally" in my post, I play MS+DB+crit agility+crit defenses+mystic regen I know how sins can survive

MBP

MBP

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

Arizona

Clanless Fraggers

R/Mo

well you can think what you want
I know the difference between the builds
you can call a warrior/dervish a front-liner and I'll continue to call warriors/dervishes tanks even when they're not using OF. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.