In a recent patch it seems that A.net has decided that [skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill] was in need of a mashing with the nerfbat. It now causes you to suffer from Cracked Armor for 20 seconds when you activate it. High energy cost for only 25% IAS and now the Cracked Armor?!
Screw this, my para's dead. I'll make an assacaster or something instead, A.net doesn't seem to hate those.
Aggressive Refrain now a terrible skill?
OI-812
Racthoh
The only problem I have is that Tahlkora spams RC on recharge to remove the cracked armour. As much as I like the heal, she just drains her energy.
Arkantos
The nerf is a bitch in PvP, but the only thing that affects it really in PvE is AI removing cracked armor every few seconds. Seriously, -20 armor isn't going to make a huge difference on a class with unremovable defensive skills, not to mention TNTF.
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by OI-812
In a recent patch it seems that A.net has decided that [skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill] was in need of a mashing with the nerfbat. It now causes you to suffer from Cracked Armor for 20 seconds when you activate it. High energy cost for only 25% IAS and now the Cracked Armor?!
Screw this, my para's dead. I'll make an assacaster or something instead, A.net doesn't seem to hate those. 1) 25 energy on a Paragon isn't anything to care about, really, considering the nature of the skill.
2) Unless you're bad, you only have to pay once for a very, long time.
3) Armor reduction doesn't do anything to Paragons.
The only problem is how the AI heroes act around it.
Screw this, my para's dead. I'll make an assacaster or something instead, A.net doesn't seem to hate those. 1) 25 energy on a Paragon isn't anything to care about, really, considering the nature of the skill.
2) Unless you're bad, you only have to pay once for a very, long time.
3) Armor reduction doesn't do anything to Paragons.
The only problem is how the AI heroes act around it.
I Phoenix I
Actually, Cracked Armor reapplies every time a Chant or Shout ends, so you're paying quite often.
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by I Phoenix I
Actually, Cracked Armor reapplies every time a Chant or Shout ends, so you're paying quite often.
I don't see how this relates to the cost of AR itself? You don't have to remove Cracked Armor at all, consider you're still approximately 80AL with ranged positioning. The problem is heroes spamming removal (which does add up significantly).
I Phoenix I
Sorry, misinterpreted your post.
Racthoh
If you're really desperate, guildmate tested that placing a Purifying Veil on yourself will keep you clean from the Cracked Armor. Your call if the skill slot, and speccing motivation, is worth the 20 armor.
EDIT: I'm dumb, Purifying Finale, not Veil.
EDIT: I'm dumb, Purifying Finale, not Veil.
Div
Making a paragon a 90ish armor target instead of 110 is just horrible...not really
Stormlord Alex
You know, between WY!, SY!, TNTF!, Centurion's Insignia, a freakin' shield, and, you know... stuff, I never noticed that -20 armour. Weird.
If only I could tell Dunk to stop spammin' his condition remover...
If only I could tell Dunk to stop spammin' his condition remover...
Shuuda
I anything, I think Anet were too soft on it, AR is still overpowered:
-A constant 25% IAS
-No real set back like Warrior IASs
-Not a stance
Speargons in general are still overpowered:
-Have a constant IAS (see above)
- Have access to lots of conditions
- don't have to go up close like warriors or assassins
-have nearly the same range as bows, but do more damage.
Paragon's in general are broken:
- built around using skills that cannot be remove, nor are there many viable counters to.
- Have the damage of a warrior, but range of a ranger (see above)
- Too much passive defence (defencive Anthem)
Sorry to sound harsh, but saying AR is shit proves that people just complain over rather tiny things.
-A constant 25% IAS
-No real set back like Warrior IASs
-Not a stance
Speargons in general are still overpowered:
-Have a constant IAS (see above)
- Have access to lots of conditions
- don't have to go up close like warriors or assassins
-have nearly the same range as bows, but do more damage.
Paragon's in general are broken:
- built around using skills that cannot be remove, nor are there many viable counters to.
- Have the damage of a warrior, but range of a ranger (see above)
- Too much passive defence (defencive Anthem)
Sorry to sound harsh, but saying AR is shit proves that people just complain over rather tiny things.
random.name
AR is not 33% IAS.
Shuuda
Quote:
Originally Posted by random.name
AR is not 33% IAS.
Ah your right, but even so, still has some overpowered elements to it.
random.name
I agree, the cracked armor affects me not at all. Just did a H/H shards run, and I had zero problems, and I am in AR all the time. -20 means nothing in PvE.
Tarzanboy
The cracked armor could also be beneficial IF (I haven't tried it yet) you can get it onto an opponent, for instance, using Plague Touch. This would certainly make skills like Aura Slicer, Chest Thumper and Distracting Strike a lot more practical to carry.
Cheers,
TB
Cheers,
TB
Tarzanboy
If it is non-transferable, you could always go with Spear of Redemption to remove some of the strain off of your H&H and use some of that adrenaline that is pooling waiting for the refresh of GftE or WY!.
Cheers,
TB
Cheers,
TB
Winterclaw
Why not bring remedy signet and make sure you don't use too many shouts and chants?
Earth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Why not bring remedy signet and make sure you don't use too many shouts and chants?
Because shouts and chants are the way to go.
jaeharys targaryen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
You know, between WY!, SY!, TNTF!, Centurion's Insignia, a freakin' shield, and, you know... stuff, I never noticed that -20 armour. Weird.
If only I could tell Dunk to stop spammin' his condition remover... LOL
looking back at how i posted a thread lamenting this would happen, i'm now amazed that people are complaining
If only I could tell Dunk to stop spammin' his condition remover... LOL
looking back at how i posted a thread lamenting this would happen, i'm now amazed that people are complaining
hotman
well, im more worried about gfte, that nerf sucks
SleepyLuxon
Cracked armor is just plain wrong i wish we would have gotten -20 armor while attacking instead. Cracked Armor Covers conditions for your enemy and h/h are stupid and keep removing it from you so its gonna get hard h/h with AR 
ShadowbaneX
the main problem with this isn't the armour loss, it's the condition. Most people playing with H/H and bring condition removal and there in lies the problem. Draining your monks to remove a largely useless condition is very painful. The AL penalty could have been even greater and it wouldn't have mattered that much, it's the incessant drain your AI monks energy supplies that is the problem.
Iuris
I would point out that the solution applied to Aggressive refrain is not just a matter of "-20 armor to 80+10+16".
Applying cracked armor also means that the paragon is now subject to a condition. Virulence, Iron palm, Victory is mine, Discord, Vile miasma, FRAGILITY, Epidemic. Just imagine Fragility on a paragon with aggressive refrain.
And the AI monk annoyance, along with the cracked armor becoming a "covering condition" is not a minor issue. If a paragon is blinded, you can't in a convenient way remove the blind - being constantly reapplied, the cracked armor will be removed first, and will usually be reapplied by the time the condition remover recharges.
Applying cracked armor also means that the paragon is now subject to a condition. Virulence, Iron palm, Victory is mine, Discord, Vile miasma, FRAGILITY, Epidemic. Just imagine Fragility on a paragon with aggressive refrain.
And the AI monk annoyance, along with the cracked armor becoming a "covering condition" is not a minor issue. If a paragon is blinded, you can't in a convenient way remove the blind - being constantly reapplied, the cracked armor will be removed first, and will usually be reapplied by the time the condition remover recharges.
Karmaniac
PvP-wise its borderline fine but with H/H it just plain sucks. I'd gladly go Godwin on this but after so much fear and loathing I just can't be bothered anymore. Was quitting GW anyways. Don't expect me to buy anything made by Anet in the near future. At least if izzy is involved...
semantic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
If you're really desperate, guildmate tested that placing a Purifying Veil on yourself will keep you clean from the Cracked Armor. Your call if the skill slot, and speccing motivation, is worth the 20 armor.
I think you meant [skill]Purifying Finale[/skill], and yes, that's a great way to deal with the Cracked Armor since it seems to get removed before it even gets applied. Morgahn is really good about throwing PF around, and it's not as if it's a bad skill to begin with.
Picuso
Yes, with Purifying Finale casted after AR, AR applies Cracked but PF removes it, so you can be as happy as before 
Ben-A-BoO
I really can live with the - 20 AL but the problem, like stated above, is cracked armor as condition burying other conditions beyond strategic control.
Purifying Finale can help me work around it ... thanks for the hint.
But still i have to spec in Motivation for it and give up a skill slot.
Don't get me wrong ... a nerf is necessary on AR in pvp but this smells like exhaustion on the Ritualists back then - sigh -
Talking about energy here: GftE and Watch Yourself recharge worries me much more! You waste a lot of adrenaline in those 4 secs ... this wouldn't be much of a problem if I had more skills that require adrenaline. The problem is that the paragon has e-cost heavy utility and we need to manage our energy somehow ... channeling anyone LOL
Cheers,
Timebandit
Purifying Finale can help me work around it ... thanks for the hint.
But still i have to spec in Motivation for it and give up a skill slot.
Don't get me wrong ... a nerf is necessary on AR in pvp but this smells like exhaustion on the Ritualists back then - sigh -
Talking about energy here: GftE and Watch Yourself recharge worries me much more! You waste a lot of adrenaline in those 4 secs ... this wouldn't be much of a problem if I had more skills that require adrenaline. The problem is that the paragon has e-cost heavy utility and we need to manage our energy somehow ... channeling anyone LOL
Cheers,
Timebandit
yesitsrob
Yeah pretty much Paragons are still imba. Have to be pretty bad to think otherwise, ups.
Tarzanboy
Aggressive Refrain was long overdue for a nerf. Yeah it has a high cost and initial cast time sucks, but you can keep it up indefinitely barring the use of Well of Silence or Vocal Minority. Imagine this: permanent 25% IAS, no means to remove it and no upkeep cost if using 5e skills with a Leadership of 10 or if used with other chanters/shouters in the party. In a party with any shouters, virtually any class could go /P and take advantage of the +25%, whether it was a Ranger, Derv, Warrior or Assassin.
Seriously, other classes were hit much harder with the nerfbat than Paragons and this wasn't even the hardest hit for Para's. "Go For the Eyes!" or "Watch Yourself!" (for the P/W's out there) getting a 4 second refresh hurts more than the condition and -20 AL and yet paras can still work around it. If you were spamming GftE or WY! for energy management, "Save Yourselves!" is still there and unaffected.
How would you like to be a rit and find that your spirits are now 50hp lighter?
How about as a Monk and find that the recharges on Shield of Deflection and Shield of Regeneration were raised?
Cheers,
TB
Seriously, other classes were hit much harder with the nerfbat than Paragons and this wasn't even the hardest hit for Para's. "Go For the Eyes!" or "Watch Yourself!" (for the P/W's out there) getting a 4 second refresh hurts more than the condition and -20 AL and yet paras can still work around it. If you were spamming GftE or WY! for energy management, "Save Yourselves!" is still there and unaffected.
How would you like to be a rit and find that your spirits are now 50hp lighter?
How about as a Monk and find that the recharges on Shield of Deflection and Shield of Regeneration were raised?
Cheers,
TB
wilebill
AR nerf doesn't affect me. GfTE I can live without; no use carrying GfTE now.
No use carrying Watch Yourself either, more effective things to put in a slot.
Problem is here, ANet has yet again nerfed the Paragon without buffing any Paragon skills. If you are a good game designer, you just do not take things away from a class without giving something in return.
No use carrying Watch Yourself either, more effective things to put in a slot.
Problem is here, ANet has yet again nerfed the Paragon without buffing any Paragon skills. If you are a good game designer, you just do not take things away from a class without giving something in return.
street peddler
this really doesnt make the skill bad, it's still good and overpowered, you just have some kind of downside to it now.
Tarzanboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by street peddler
this really doesnt make the skill bad, it's still good and overpowered, you just have some kind of downside to it now.
I look at it as an opportunity. Yes, it adds a condition and conditions can be bad, especially if you are running H&H, but it opens an opportunity with giving an endless stream of long lasting conditions over to the AI. Prior to the update, it was pretty uncommon to have Cracked Armor on a foe, unless someone in the party used one of the handful of GWEN skills that caused it. Now, skills that were previously ignored such as Chest Thumper for Paras can now be utilized a little more.
When working with a Derv with Aura Slicer, it becomes even more interesting, as suddenly there is another skill that may remove Spell Breaker/Obsidian Flesh/Vow of Silence/Spell Shield yet it doesn't involve removing one of their own enchantments.
I'm thinking we'll start seeing more P/N's now with [skill]Plague Signet[/skill] or [skill]Plague Touch[/skill], potentially even [skill]Contagion[/skill] or [skill]Plague Sending[/skill].
Cheers,
TB
When working with a Derv with Aura Slicer, it becomes even more interesting, as suddenly there is another skill that may remove Spell Breaker/Obsidian Flesh/Vow of Silence/Spell Shield yet it doesn't involve removing one of their own enchantments.
I'm thinking we'll start seeing more P/N's now with [skill]Plague Signet[/skill] or [skill]Plague Touch[/skill], potentially even [skill]Contagion[/skill] or [skill]Plague Sending[/skill].
Cheers,
TB
Trx
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilebill
4 months later and the nerfs keep on comming, and they boosted what, Awe and Signet of Aggression? Just admit leadership and some skills were flawed by design and redesign them to shut the pvp community up, don't keep sneeking in a nerf or two every skill balance update. I have no reason to quit my paragon since they are still good in PvE and I have put alot of time into him, but I am getting pretty annoyed by this constant stream of nerfs.
And to say something on topic, AR is still fine, been using a 3 paragon setup with 1 using purifying finale and apart from the slightly higher energy drain on the prot monk hench it doesn't play much different then before the nerf.
Dean Harper
teh only thing that is gonna hurt paras is the gfte nerf...
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Harper
teh only thing that is gonna hurt paras is the gfte nerf...
Really only means paragons have to pay attention to their energy if they previously relied on GftE as their only means of recovery.
hotman
Ive always just used soldiers fury, FGJ, enduring harmony, and watch yourself, it seems to be absolutely amazing right now, ppl should give it a shot and tell me what they think
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotman
Ive always just used soldiers fury, FGJ, enduring harmony, and watch yourself, it seems to be absolutely amazing right now, ppl should give it a shot and tell me what they think
I tried using the exact same thing this weekend, and it was fantastic. Less damage perhaps than Aggressive Refrain builds but still a very nice alternative for me. I like the fact the IAS costs 5 energy as opposed to 25, and keeping a shout on you at all times isn't hard. I was using it with Holy Spear, Merciless Spear, Burning Spear and "Stand Your Ground!". Worked very well imo.
iridescentfyre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Really only means paragons have to pay attention to their energy if they previously relied on GftE as their only means of recovery.
Yeah, and its not like 4 seconds is that long of a wait anyway... You can use GFTE! or WY! effectively every 2 seconds still, thats roughly as long as it takes to get the adrenaline anyway.
Abnaxus
I created a PvE paragon a month ago (it is at Ruins of Morah mission but recently haven't played much because recently I spent my time to get level 2 VIP for my ranger), so I'm not expert in this class.
Before the update, I use to run AR+GfTE and Cruel Spear as elite, and TnTF.
I'm fine with GfTE change, actually I can use better the adrenaline I gain instead of being temptated to push GfTE at recharge, sometimes when I already was at full energy lol.
But I really hate the cracked armor, it's the most stupid idea ever. Much better a -20AL and not such a condition.
I don't play PvP, so I'd like to know this: are there PvP builds that make effective use of cracked armor and bring skill that cause it?
I've never seen threads about how imba cracked armor is, or request to nerf it. So I imagine that it's not so popular.
Well, if this is true, probably the devs want to make it more popular, and since players don't bring skills that cause cracked armor, the only possibility to see it in game was to give a class the "honor" of being able to self inflict cracked armor
Besides irony, I tried to use this setup:
Soldier Fury
For Great Justice
Energizing Chorus
<spear attack>
Find their weakness
TnTF
15 spear
12 leadership
9 command
3 motivation
Even with very low motivation, EC gives you the same energy gain as GFTE, it's spammable, and allows you to save 4e on the next shout.
The idea is that saving energy is more or less like gaining energy in my opinion.
The 1 sec cast can be a drawback because of interrupts, but in PvE mesmers normally interrupt even 0.1 sec casting skills, and you can spam again after 2 hits.
Find their weakness triggers SF, and ends when you critical, at this point you also inflict deep wound.
In this way you have always a chant or shout on you, and are able to gain and save energy for you shouts, make DPS and inflict deep wound.
Before the update, I use to run AR+GfTE and Cruel Spear as elite, and TnTF.
I'm fine with GfTE change, actually I can use better the adrenaline I gain instead of being temptated to push GfTE at recharge, sometimes when I already was at full energy lol.
But I really hate the cracked armor, it's the most stupid idea ever. Much better a -20AL and not such a condition.
I don't play PvP, so I'd like to know this: are there PvP builds that make effective use of cracked armor and bring skill that cause it?
I've never seen threads about how imba cracked armor is, or request to nerf it. So I imagine that it's not so popular.
Well, if this is true, probably the devs want to make it more popular, and since players don't bring skills that cause cracked armor, the only possibility to see it in game was to give a class the "honor" of being able to self inflict cracked armor
Besides irony, I tried to use this setup:
Soldier Fury
For Great Justice
Energizing Chorus
<spear attack>
Find their weakness
TnTF
15 spear
12 leadership
9 command
3 motivation
Even with very low motivation, EC gives you the same energy gain as GFTE, it's spammable, and allows you to save 4e on the next shout.
The idea is that saving energy is more or less like gaining energy in my opinion.
The 1 sec cast can be a drawback because of interrupts, but in PvE mesmers normally interrupt even 0.1 sec casting skills, and you can spam again after 2 hits.
Find their weakness triggers SF, and ends when you critical, at this point you also inflict deep wound.
In this way you have always a chant or shout on you, and are able to gain and save energy for you shouts, make DPS and inflict deep wound.
Darkpower Alchemist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarzanboy
In a party with any shouters, virtually any class could go /P and take advantage of the +25%, whether it was a Ranger, Derv, Warrior or Assassin.
This is actually a very wrong point to make. The cost and the fact that it is in leadership makes AR horrible on anyone not a primary paragon. Even in a group full of shouters/chanters AR was made very specific for the paragon's uses.
[skill=big]Aggressive Refrain[/skill]
Despite the 5s duration at 0 leadership, no warrior,derv, or sin worth his/her salt would use a 2s cast IAS then run into battle, essentially losing the IAS upon reaching melee range. It's not even sensible on a SP assassin because the energy drain would stop the synergy of the build in its tracks. Just a point I felt needed to be made.
[skill=big]Aggressive Refrain[/skill]
Despite the 5s duration at 0 leadership, no warrior,derv, or sin worth his/her salt would use a 2s cast IAS then run into battle, essentially losing the IAS upon reaching melee range. It's not even sensible on a SP assassin because the energy drain would stop the synergy of the build in its tracks. Just a point I felt needed to be made.