Skill>time is why I love GW - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

creelie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

Alberta

Charter Vanguard [CV]

Mo/

14 Oct 2007 at 23:37 - 1

(In this instance, "price" can refer to both money and time.)

Do you think this is still true? Less true? More true?

I'm still here because I think it's still true enough. There are an increasing number of things with low importance and high price to tantalize veterans and the vain, but none of them are necessary for gameplay.

However, I think this principle has become less of a priority over time, and so I will be examining GW2 very closely before committing.

But I want to hear what you think.

getalifebud

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

N/

14 Oct 2007 at 23:44 - 2

Very true, I started this game around the same time as about 5 friends, we had all played runescape before, 3 of us wanted new areas to conquer and level up endlessly in and 3 of us wanted something different to runescape, guess which 3 still play today.

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

14 Oct 2007 at 23:47 - 3

It was Skill > Time back in April 2005, with the original Guild Wars release. After Factions was released in April 2006, the line was blurred. In Nightfall, the Sunspear/Lightbringer grinds (yes, they are grinds) tilted the scale slightly in favor of Time > Skill. In EotN, the distinction is crystal clear: You will be better in GW with the more time you spend, not the other way around.

getalifebud

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

N/

14 Oct 2007 at 23:50 - 4

I would say thats only really true for PvE Zinger.

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

14 Oct 2007 at 23:57 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by getalifebud

I would say thats only really true for PvE Zinger.

PvP is irrelevant in such discussions, due to the inclusion of instant lv. 20 characters.

The Skill > Time mantra has, IIRC, only been applied by the GW Devs to apply to PvE, as an opposing stance to MMOs such as WoW.

Besides, Fame and Balthazar/Kurzick/Luxon Faction is Skill > Time, right?

GvG Ladder is arguable, however.

Master Ketsu

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

middle of nowhere

Krazy Guild With Krazy People [KrZy]

R/

15 Oct 2007 at 00:03 - 6

Quote:

If you need to rely on OP PvE skills to kill the same dumb-as-a-stump monsters as they always were, You will be better in GW with the more time you spend, not the other way around. Otherwise, nothing has changed.

Fixed.

12 characters.

Count to Potato

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Imagination Land

I Swear She Was Eighteen [Gwen]

W/

15 Oct 2007 at 00:16 - 7

some people will leave guildwars for the money issue, these are people with the no lives and who liike to hoard for no reason...

nugzta

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

15 Oct 2007 at 00:24 - 8

Because Guild Wars direction is PvE, thats why more grind contents are added to keep players something to do in PvE. Back then Guild Wars was more competitive game and PvP was at its prime, so there was no need for grind in competitive PvP oriented game.

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

15 Oct 2007 at 00:26 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Fixed.

12 characters.

"Better" is a comparitive term. Two of some benign concept is "better" than one; I don't think anyone will deny that.

You will have more powerful PvE skills with the grind. That is undeniable. And that's what ArenaNet has been promoting since the introduction of the first PvE only skills.

If you want to argue semantics and morality, this isn't the argument.

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/

15 Oct 2007 at 00:46 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

PvP is irrelevant in such discussions, due to the inclusion of instant lv. 20 characters.

The Skill > Time mantra has, IIRC, only been applied by the GW Devs to apply to PvE, as an opposing stance to MMOs such as WoW.

Besides, Fame and Balthazar/Kurzick/Luxon Faction is Skill > Time, right?

GvG Ladder is arguable, however.

In PvP you can't play without a title so that's even more Time > Skill... oh and Luck > All if you can find a group who doesn't notice you don't have a title?

At least in PvE you can play without those PvE skills at high levels.

You don't need PvE skills or LB or SS ranks to beat the game if you're good. They were just designed for dopey PuGs to stop complaining about stuff like that Gate of Madness crisis (oh boy the good old days of making 50k in 30 minutes running people, some idiots are willing to pay 25k for a run LOL).

Mineria

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

Denmark

Dragonslayers Of The [Mist]

W/Mo

15 Oct 2007 at 00:50 - 11

I enjoy the part of GW's PvE site in the way that you don't need to have a huge amount of people online to do something together.
As well as, that you don't need to go through heavy strategy's for bosses and their adds.
I don't know about the skill/time issue, but you can play all the way through with way less time spend then most of those mmo's out there.
Since most things are more about cosmetics in GW, and not about getting better stats all the time.
The PvE reputation system, yes you can upgrade a lot of skills that way, but it is not necessary to do so, since you can still manage the game without.
I as example didn't know completely about the attribute point system.
It was first when Nightfall was brought to us, that I found out some of my characters where missing 30 points.

Since I never looked the wiki up for any of the quests/missions.
But I still managed to play my way through even with those points missing.

I think it is more about how you choose to spend your time in the game.

Malice Black

Site Legend

Join Date: Oct 2005

15 Oct 2007 at 01:06 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

In PvP you can't play without a title so that's even more Time > Skill... oh and Luck > All if you can find a group who doesn't notice you don't have a title?

At least in PvE you can play without those PvE skills at high levels.

You don't need PvE skills or LB or SS ranks to beat the game if you're good. They were just designed for dopey PuGs to stop complaining about stuff like that Gate of Madness crisis (oh boy the good old days of making 50k in 30 minutes running people, some idiots are willing to pay 25k for a run LOL).

You don't need PvE skills period.

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

15 Oct 2007 at 01:14 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

It was Skill > Time back in April 2005, with the original Guild Wars release. After Factions was released in April 2006, the line was blurred. In Nightfall, the Sunspear/Lightbringer grinds (yes, they are grinds) tilted the scale slightly in favor of Time > Skill. In EotN, the distinction is crystal clear: You will be better in GW with the more time you spend, not the other way around.

Nice, true summary.
Let's hope there won't be time > skill in GW 2 but somehow I doubt it

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

15 Oct 2007 at 01:16 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

In PvP you can't play without a title so that's even more Time > Skill... oh and Luck > All if you can find a group who doesn't notice you don't have a title?

At least in PvE you can play without those PvE skills at high levels.

You don't need PvE skills or LB or SS ranks to beat the game if you're good. They were just designed for dopey PuGs to stop complaining about stuff like that Gate of Madness crisis (oh boy the good old days of making 50k in 30 minutes running people, some idiots are willing to pay 25k for a run LOL).

You don't need a title to PvP. PvP titles are purely meant as a method of showing experience to people that don't know you - if you have contacts that know you already, they won't care about your titles.

The Great Al

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

ALOA

E/Me

15 Oct 2007 at 01:19 - 15

I don't entirely agree. After a while, how good do you need to be in PvE? I've had the game for two years, and certainly don't consider myself an elite player, but I can get through pretty much any instance with H/H. And who can't, nowadays? Maybe the best players can tear through an area half an hour faster, but eventually there gets to a point where after playing 100s of hours, playing 100s of hours more isn't going to really make you noticeably or necessarily better. If anything, PvP is the only area of the game where you actually need to continually adapt to the game and improve.

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

15 Oct 2007 at 01:26 - 16

I used to be able to say GW is Skill> Time. With the advent of PvE skills, not so much.

It is still Skill>time over MMORPGs, but it has lost some of that original philosophy.

To max Luxon/Kurzick title and reputation ranks is relatively grind-y in comparison to the original Prophecies do-a-quest, get a skill type of gameplay. You used to be able to get a fair number of skills by questing. Now the only skills you get are 5 skills for noncore professions (in eye of the north) and PvE skills rewarded through quests.

Nightfall was the start of it, with the Sunspear title track. It wasn't that bad even with Lightbringer since it was useful even without a high title, but once
KUrzick/Luxon skills came it ended the 100% skill>time.

nugzta

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

15 Oct 2007 at 01:27 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You don't need a title to PvP. PvP titles are purely meant as a method of showing experience to people that don't know you - if you have contacts that know you already, they won't care about your titles.

QFT

I have played with r6 people (people I know) back in early Factions days and I was unranked, we won HoH too. If you can establish good friend list and you are acknowledged by them that you are good player then titles wont matter.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

15 Oct 2007 at 01:28 - 18

Skill > Time was way back in the day. Not so much anymore. Sorry.

6am3 Fana71c

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2006

15 Oct 2007 at 01:33 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

In EotN, the distinction is crystal clear: You will be better in GW with the more time you spend, not the other way around.

Not true. You will get more powerfull PvE Skills, not become better. There is huge diffrence. Bad player with maxed out pve skills will still suck, while good player will still be good, even if he is using skills from only...let's say 2 campaings. And grind to get new armors was toned down in latest update, so Zinger, what can I say...less QQ more pew pew.

Thorondor Port

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

British Columbia

W/

15 Oct 2007 at 01:35 - 20

Without investing any time at all, skill cannot be aquired.
Consider:

Skill(time) > Time=Skill

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

15 Oct 2007 at 01:37 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6am3 Fana71c

Not true. You will get more powerfull PvE Skills, not become better. There is huge diffrence.

They will not make the player better, but they will help to get the job done. Many would consider the latter to be more important.

Malice Black

Site Legend

Join Date: Oct 2005

15 Oct 2007 at 02:01 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You don't need a title to PvP. PvP titles are purely meant as a method of showing experience to people that don't know you - if you have contacts that know you already, they won't care about your titles.

True. I've played in R6+ groups and I have no rank. All depends on who you know.

nighthawk329

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

Guildless

Mo/E

15 Oct 2007 at 03:22 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

They will not make the player better, but they will help to get the job done. Many would consider the latter to be more important.

Agreed. While I (playing a monk) have not had a good use for PvE-only skills (except maybe Seed of Life, before nerf), they still help, since they are more powerful than regular skills, especially at high title ranks = more time spent.

As far as I know, ANet added PvE-only skills to appease the whiners who complained about PvP skill balances wrecking PvE. But it was implemented the wrong way.

It would be much better if PvE skills were NOT tied to reputation, and instead given as a reward (like in prophecies) for doing:
- a big, long, and/or hard quest (like norn/asura/ebon vanguard primary).
- beating a dungeon for the first time (NM or HM can each reward different skills)
That way, only skilled players can acquire PvE skills.

Another idea could be that instead of tying the PvE-only skills to title rank, base them off of how many dungeons in that area you have completed. For example, if there are 5 dungeons in the Far Shiverpeaks (which is probably not right), the norn skills would have 10 ranks, based on how many of the dungeons you have completed (each dungeon counts once for NM and once for HM).

This can apply to Nightfall too, based on how many missions you have completed with master's reward in NM and HM. Possibly the LB skills could be based off of only missions where you encounter abbadon/servants.

This way, it rewards skilled players who take advantage of all the game has to offer.

nugzta

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

15 Oct 2007 at 03:56 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by nighthawk329

It would be much better if PvE skills were NOT tied to reputation, and instead given as a reward (like in prophecies) for doing:
- a big, long, and/or hard quest (like norn/asura/ebon vanguard primary).
- beating a dungeon for the first time (NM or HM can each reward different skills)
That way, only skilled players can acquire PvE skills.

I do know that EotN PvE skills are acquired from the quests, right?

korcan

noobalicious

Join Date: Jun 2006

15 Oct 2007 at 04:37 - 25

how do you differentiate between good and bad pve-ers? time trials? party wipes? build synergy?

all this skill>time or time>skill pertaining to pve is so pointless because pve has become a single player experience.

no mandatory pug-ing = who cares.

eudas

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Tx, USA

The Infinite Monkeys [TYPE]

W/

15 Oct 2007 at 05:10 - 26

usually you can tell just by looking at the builds that they use, and how they move while they're using them.

eudas

Dean Harper

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

USA

The Killer Clan Musketeers [TKCM]

Me/E

15 Oct 2007 at 05:14 - 27

Time>Skill

Take HA for example, there are plenty of ppl who are perfectly skilled in HA who dont have all the time in the world to gain the ranks. But taht doesnt matter to ppl now.. you have to have lots of time in order to "have great skill"

Nevin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

15 Oct 2007 at 05:14 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

"Better" is a comparitive term. Two of some benign concept is "better" than one; I don't think anyone will deny that.

You will have more powerful PvE skills with the grind. That is undeniable. And that's what ArenaNet has been promoting since the introduction of the first PvE only skills.

If you want to argue semantics and morality, this isn't the argument.

Lol.. I don't see any semantics or morality in either of the posts above you, I think you're stretching those definitions just a tad bit.

??Ripskin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

Mo/

15 Oct 2007 at 06:58 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

It was Skill > Time back in April 2005, with the original Guild Wars release. After Factions was released in April 2006, the line was blurred. In Nightfall, the Sunspear/Lightbringer grinds (yes, they are grinds) tilted the scale slightly in favor of Time > Skill. In EotN, the distinction is crystal clear: You will be better in GW with the more time you spend, not the other way around.

...would you just quit the game already...

Cacheelma

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Ascalon Union

Me/Mo

15 Oct 2007 at 07:33 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugzta

I do know that EotN PvE skills are acquired from the quests, right?

Yes, and then you grind to make it better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

...would you just quit the game already...

Why do you care so much? For all I know Zinger, just like me, has quit the game already. But that doesn't stop her, or me, from stating the HARSH REALITY on this forum.

Deal with it. I'd suggest you try to prove her wrong instead of, you know, attacking her because she speaks the fact and you don't want to hear it.

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

15 Oct 2007 at 07:37 - 31

i dun think its so much of a skill/time issue...
its more of a perception/ego issue

teh reason, gw 2 years ago seemed like skill>time,
is cuz we were free to develop whichever skills we wanted to
without any hassle of titles or grinding
we do wut we want without pressure or judgement

ppl feel its time>skill mostly cuz they r now restricted of which skills to develop
anet now tells us wut we should be spending our time on----
"grind this"
"obtain that"
and its teh community's fault for seeing only these achievements as skilled

for example, if someone has completed all teh side-quests
most ppl will jus overlook it
why?
because no title or monument is congratulating it
therefore, that guy is quite unskilled

many ppl feel that they need to max titles in order to call themselves skilled
(and maxing titles r no doubt more time than skill)

as for pve skills (ss/lb/etc)....
ppl would jus argue that its not important to have pve skills maxed
they're rite in one way---
it has very little, if any at all, affect on ur skill
but it does affect ur performance
and other ppl will base ur skill on ur performance

so its not bout skill>time or time>skill
its all bout feeling the need to obtain time-aquired achievements to prove they have skill

unienaule

I dunt even get "Retired"

Join Date: Aug 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

15 Oct 2007 at 08:09 - 32

I'm sorry, but anyone who claims anything related to Guild Wars is a "harsh reality" needs to spend some more time outside and take video games a bit less seriously.

Darkobra

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Scotland

Type like an idiot, I'll treat you like an idiot

E/Me

15 Oct 2007 at 08:18 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

I'm sorry, but anyone who claims anything related to Guild Wars is a "harsh reality" needs to spend some more time outside and take video games a bit less seriously.

Oh wait until they come across a true harsh reality. They'll spend YEARS in denial.

Cacheelma

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Ascalon Union

Me/Mo

15 Oct 2007 at 08:56 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

I'm sorry, but anyone who claims anything related to Guild Wars is a "harsh reality" needs to spend some more time outside and take video games a bit less seriously.

My point exactly. Isn't that the reason why people attack Zingeri or whoever try to speak the fact about how the game is right now though; They just can't deal with reality?

leprekan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posers and Wannabes [nubs]

W/E

15 Oct 2007 at 09:13 - 35

Not to tinkle in the Cheerios but ... gw isnt exactly something that requires a lot of skill. Throw 8 people together with an IQ above 70 and they do just fine in pve OR pvp. Always found it annoying people going on about skill in this game. Sorry but only FPS require any real amount of human skill. Only skill required in this game is created with time spent to learn the skills. So it will always be about TIME.

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

15 Oct 2007 at 09:24 - 36

Of course it's time. I don't have much time, but I have only r2 in HA. I have, because I don't have time, but I have skill. Too bad that when I try to HA, usually people shout ,,GO BACK TO PVE YOU RANKLESS NOB!111'' or I meet other r0+ that go with mending hammer wammo with Defy Pain and energy attacks, E/W with axes and frenzy+healsig (making Elementalist a class with 10 AL ftw?) or monks with Heal Area and Healing Breeze. That's why I hate HA and don't play it. Or for example, I love GvG and back in Factions (june/july '06) I was a Mo/Me Blessed Light monkie in a top 600 guild. Now guess what? I can't win a match, because there is either a guild with a gimmick spike builds (1000+ damage, anyone wants to infuse that?) or 4 players + 4 heroes that smash everything with perfect timing of heroes + a bit skill from players (Skill = Ctrl + skill/Space), that have 20 minions attacking one person with Barbs + 5 perfectly timed cover hexes. Kthxbai.
Now I'm waiting when in RA/TA we will have to play against heroes.

EPO Bot

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Mo/N

15 Oct 2007 at 09:28 - 37

I'm not shure about the all importance of the overpowered PVE skills. Monking is all i do, and i find myself still using WoH most of the time.And WoH is so easy to get, you can potentially have it before level 10 in Proph.

Skilled monks don't need "overpowered" skills. And the same is true for all other professions.

You may have all the titles you want, if you let a Chinese point farmer get them for you, you still don't have the skill to use them right.

This is different in true grind games like Diablo2, in wich it's all dependant on having the right gear and the right build. Then you just press the intant ownage button aka, the left mouse button wile targeting something and you win. GW will never be THAT easy, and those who say it is are simply so experienced that they don't notice how good they have become over the years.

Give a bunch of real noobies all the titles you want, and they still can't do jack against some veterans, even if they didn't bring elites at all.

Striken7

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

The District Nudists

R/

15 Oct 2007 at 17:56 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

Skilled monks don't need "overpowered" skills. And the same is true for all other professions.

Whether or not you need an advantage based on grind, that advantage still exists.

Two equally skilled players, one with maxed out PvE skills and one with none, will not perform equally in PvE - regardless of the fact that neither of them need the advantage to succeed.

6am3 Fana71c

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2006

15 Oct 2007 at 18:51 - 39

So who cares? If you are skilled player, just play the game. Most people play with H&H or with people they know. If someone else has overpowered PvE skills, let em use them. It's not like they will acomplish anything you can't. PvE is allready too easy, no need to QQ. Oh, wait, this is Guru. Silly me.

Quantum Duck

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Err7

Me/

15 Oct 2007 at 19:12 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by creelie

I'm still here because I think it's still true enough. There are an increasing number of things with low importance and high price to tantalize veterans and the vain, but none of them are necessary for gameplay.

However, I think this principle has become less of a priority over time, and so I will be examining GW2 very closely before committing.

But I want to hear what you think.

Well said. This is exactly how I've seen Guild Wars pretty much since the beginning way back when. Here's hoping they can pull off the same magic in Guild Wars 2.