A discussion on 4 heros

DISCLAIMER: This is not a suggestion. I don't expect it to happen, and never will. Do not post on this as if it would be a something added into the game, just treat it as in idea, think of implications, benefits, etc.

There has been a lot of debate on the extra heroes front recently, and still ne'er a day goes by when I don't hear someone trying to vanquish in my Guild say, "why don't they give us 7 heroes?" or suchlike. I shall make it clear now that I do not feel strongly either way. I think its fine with 3, and would be fine with 7, too. I only thought of the compromise of giving the community four heroes. It would allow teams extra flexibility, but still not make it so you can do everything on your own with only heroes.

Anyway, your thoughts? I know you probably will have a lot, many probably to the detriment of my original post. But still, I'm interested to hear them.

I have sort of mixed feelings on the number of heroes. I am probably more leaning to the side that three is good, and it should not be more. Also, It would probably make too many imbalances to have more than three heroes.

well human players will still be desirable over heros i think, even if 7 were allowed, looking at hero ai... terrible ( and thats probably a good thing )

Chances are they'd end up very like henchmen anyway cos theres not too many builds that a hero can use effectively, and theres only so much micro management/ screen space from one guy.

Personally i don't think it would wipe out team play having heros, its always more fun with real ppl

yeah heaven forbid someone who plays this game by themselves get stuck playing the game with 7 heroes that have crappy ai...can't use pve skills...and can't fully control...I mean that would be far too powerful compared to a full human group with 24 pve skill possibilities. Enough of this crap...people should be able to choose how they play and who they play with...even in elite areas. If they don't want to group with other humans who treat them like crap they shouldn't have to.

Really what does 4 heroes do...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...if you have more than one person in a group you can already group with up to 6 heroes. The only thing 4 heroes changes is solo players could play with 4 heroes 3 henchmen. Might as well make it 7 heroes...no comparison to a full human team anyway.

I'm all for choice...let us to group how we want to group...whether it be with other humans, with heroes, or with henchmen.

And once we have talked and talked about the 4 hero teams lets make a 5 hero team thread and a 6 after that.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10201532

THAT is where it will head. cut to the chase.

yeah because anything more than 3 heroes might as well be 7 heroes since it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to anyone BUT solo players (and maybe people who still only own prophecies or factions...)

For every rank obtained in the Koabd title track, you are allowed to use one extra hero in PVE.

Sound good?

I came up with a nice idea for Hex pressure in PVE earlier today. Water elly, 3 necros, 2 messies, but I cant run all that with just 3 heroes.

Its like in PVP. When you play HA, the leader will usually request the team build and a damn good amount of organisation will be going on. When you PVE, you are never going toget the same kind of organisation in pugs or with other players. You cant lead the team builds to your content when so and so doesnt have the skills, and for general PVE, setting up a nice organised team for everything is just beyond possible.

Allowing 7 heroes in PVE will at least give us the level of organisation and team build satisfaction that PVP players enjoy, in PVE. We can play the builds we want, and tweak everything to our hearts content.

Whats not to like people and Anet? Whats not to like?

Even awesome.
Skill > time above all, no disadvantages because of lack of titles.

I think that everything that could possibly be said on the topic was posted in that massive thread...

I'm definitely FOR allowing more than 3 heroes in Hard Mode, and allowing henchmen in the elite areas.

Otherwise, if they decide to add one more hero, there will definitely be a clamor for all seven, so I don't see that as anything that would appease (at least for long) those that want more heroes.

By the time you actually need to use more heroes for HM and vanquishing, I'm sure you would already be at least R1 Koabd.

I got PKM easilly before I started HM, im sure most other people have significant title progress before they embark on HM.

Well I've commented in many a thread about additional heroes but here's a thought I hadn't mentioned yet (for the record, I've always been in favor of 7 heroes). Considering the current state of the game and where it's headed, the chances of finding a PUG group will continue to be harder and harder to find/create. At some point it will be a handful of folks who refuse to give the game up therefore I'm now thinking this sort of implementation is inevitable but something they aren't ready to rush. If it was put in place now, the current decline the game is in now would increase. They NEED the player interaction to keep folks involved since the die hards i mentioned above will be a minority. Once things like GW2 go live and there's some distance between the two games, these sorts of suggestions will probably begin to appear (depending on how long they intend to support it especially considering GWEN was the last addition).


elk

meh.

(though the +1/KOABD idea is not bad.)

eudas

Not a day goes by in my guild that someone says more hereoes are not needed to play or finish this game. Imagine that.

PvE might actually be fun if I could make my own team builds and not have to design bars to compensate for sub-par henchies. Alas, this isn't Fun Wars, so it's never going to happen.

That's great, you've got a large pool of people you enjoy playing the game with and a free enough schedule that it's easy to coordinate play. That's wonderful for you. Some of us aren't so lucky. Why, precisely, should you get to enjoy parts of the game that those of us with serious scheduling constraints and only a few friends playing the game consequently find totally inaccessible?

Oh, I remember now, you're the only one whose fun matters and the rest of us can suck it. Imagine that.

I think we just need to look at this objectively and see that slowly the GW universe is falling in numbers, or their priorities are changing. (i.e. from PvE to PvP). This means there are less real players around for people to play with, and the henches just dont' really cut it as a team most of the time.

Adding 7 heroes would keep people playing as the numbers continue to diminish in the outposts. Keep it out of PvP, i agree, but there's no reason this shouldn't be implemented in PvE. It would help test out team builds, as well as keep PvE'rs more interested in playing longer as it becomes increasinly difficult to find teams.

henchmen are a tool. when you fail, recognize that instead of blaming the tools, you should take responsibility for being the one who used the tool poorly and strive to learn how the tool works so that you can utilize it more effectively. there is nothing in this game that cannot be henched for at least a Standard completion rating.

"yeah but i dont have the time to learn how to make the stupid henchies work. i just want them to be as smart as a person! why don't they do what i want?"

ai programming is complicated, but the henchies have very obvious triggers and conditional responses that can be anticipated, and, thereby, directed. no, they're not going to do the optimal thing in response to a given situation. yes, they have sucky builds. but the hero AI isn't really any better than the henchman AI; the only difference is you can dress your dolls, and give them different builds. while that alone *is* an improvement, the fact of the matter is that they still have the same predictable AI responses and can only go so far -- they still require human direction.

this is where you come in. it is your job to set up the battle in your favor before the first arrow is nocked. you can flag heroes and henchies out of AoE spells. You can move them to retreat when things start to look unfavorable for your team. You can call targets for them to focus fire. You can bodyblock to make things easy for the nukers and control the engagement.

the tool could be better, but it is not the tool who is at fault if it fails.

i suppose this post is really a long-winded way to say "LRN2PLAY", but honestly i'm trying to be helpful here. 4, 5, 6, 7 heroes isn't going to be *any* better than 0 heroes/7 henchies if you don't know how to control them.

eudas

in before the close

postcount+1

congratulations! you have totally missed the point.

its not about "sucky" hench builds. Its about BUILDS and having FUN, its about the difficulty in finding a PUG, its about why most people DONT PUGplay, its about people playing the game like they want to play it.

If you just want to say "Lrn2play" SAY IT and "STFUGTFUOKTHX" as well.

My Ranger has completed every campaign, and EotN, and doesn't have a single maxed title (although it's 1 off protector of elona). That is a very stupid assumption to make.