Drunken Master on a Moebius Blossom?

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

I was looking at the Deldrimor skills, and noticed that Drunken Master (while not drunk) gives a 10-15% IAS. At 10%, your attack rate is one attack per 1.197 seconds, two attacks per 2.394 seconds. At 15%, it's 1.1305 (twice per 2.261). This means you can do a Moebius Blossom loop at the maximum speed (until a 20% AIS comes out) without ever doing an autoattack; it's actually faster than Critical Agility! The only thing is, CA provides that ever-important AL boost to us supposedly squishy Assassins (I'll have to post about that soon). So it's between more armor or faster damage. What's everyone's opinions on this, and have many people been using Drunken Master on their MBlossom's before?

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

So... you mean that 10-15% > 33%? What the hell do you have from math? C-? No, I would think that B- is more realistic...
For assassin, Critical Agility is much better than any other IAS.

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

For your information, I get straight A's in math, and I'm two grades ahead of my age. So yeah. What I meant is, a 33% attack boost doesn't help MBlossom all that much. A regular MBlossom loop without an IAS is 2.66 seconds. An MBlossom loop with 33% IAS is 2.6733 seconds, with an extra autoattack in there. An Mblossom loop with a 15% IAS, however, takes only 2.261 seconds, with no extra autoattack. This way, you optimize the speed of the loop. The only reason take take CA for the IAS is if you want that extra autoattack for buff/adren-related reasons.

zknifeh

zknifeh

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

Kamadan

Acolites of Anguish [aOa]

A/

so you are saying that u would rather have 15% ias so in the 2.6 seconds you can hit db+moebious in order for them to recharge one right after another thus landing 3 hits
and you like that over the db+moebious + 0.5 secs to land an extra hit with your dagger which would do more damage?

here is a thought! take serpants quickness... both skills will recharge in 1 second and you will be surprised by the spam!

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

You've got it all wrong. Drunken Master would let you hit 2 attacks (Moebius and Death Blossom) in 2.261 seconds, while a 33% attack boost like CA will do 3 attacks (Moebius, Death Blossom and an unneeded autoattack) in 2.6733 seconds. And using Serpent's Quickness is a horrible. You'd have to invest at LEAST 9 points in wilderness for it to be effective, meaning you won't be able to spec into Shadow Arts, and even then it'll have about a 20 second downtime. And I have not actually tested Drunken Master, I'm just getting people's opinions on whether they'd prefer it over a 33% IAS. And in the long run, I think that DM would do more damage, as you can use MBlossom faster, and also, dagger attacks hit for next to nothing if they don't have a buff like Conjure [element] or Order of Pain/the Vampire.

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooze

Sir Pandra Pierva

Sir Pandra Pierva

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Sardelec yelling at Tenshi

Angels Of Strife

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanman.be
Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooze That works also.

Sqube

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Behind you...

A/

You seem to be operating under the assumption that extra damage is somehow bad because it makes your MS+DB chain... less efficient? I'm not sure.

You yourself have demonstrated that the time difference is negligible. I'm having a hard time understanding why you would prefer not to have an extra attack in there.

In the time it takes you to do DB+MS, I can do DB+MS+autoattack. Over time, consider the extra damage. Consider the increased likelihood for criticals. Consider the +armor.

I understand where you were coming from with your idea, but you seem to be posting from the viewpoint of maximizing damage. If I can do three attacks in the amount of time it takes you to do two, I'm being more efficient even if that extra attack only does one point of damage.

Interesting observation though.

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

I definitely respect your opinion, Sqube. I just thought that if you could string loops faster (every ~2.25 compared to ~2.7) you would do more damage than you would with the extra autoattack. I'll calculate it a little later and see which one actually does more damage (I'm probably still going to use CA for the armor boost).

EDIT:
You'll probably do more damage against a high-AL foe, as since +damage is armor ignoring, but against casters and such, CA will probably come out on top. That's my guess, at least.

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

what calculations? with crit agility you get the same number of attack skills in PLUS an auto attack PLUS armor. why the hell would you even consider drunken master over it?

jaeharys targaryen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

Picnic Pioneers[asian characters]

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
So... you mean that 10-15% > 33%? What the hell do you have from math? C-? No, I would think that B- is more realistic...
For assassin, Critical Agility is much better than any other IAS. Considering the state of schools these days(getting perfect scores on tests you took high), he probably has atleast a B.

Bobby2

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
what calculations? with crit agility you get the same number of attack skills in PLUS an auto attack PLUS armor. why the hell would you even consider drunken master over it? Right!

Sqube

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Behind you...

A/

Jaigoda, check out the below. Consider each dash to indicate the passing of X amount of time.
DB = Death Blossom
MS = Moebius Strike
A = Autoattack

1. Drunken Master (15% IAS) With the 15% IAS, they hit without enough time for an autoattack so you can constantly chain them.

2. Critical Agility (33% IAS) The 33% IAS attacks so much faster that you do an autoattack between MS-DB loops.

1. MS --- DB --- MS --- DB --- MS --- DB
2. MS --- DB -A- MS --- DB -A- MS --- DB

The extra A occurs in the same amount of time (as I hope my use of Courier New makes clear). While I haven't been to the Isle of the Nameless to try this out, it seems to me that being able to do three amount of attacks (even if it's an autoattack) in the amount of time it takes you to do two means that I'll get more damage in over time, even allowing for the vagaries of attack animations. Then there's the possibility for critical strikes, double strikes... it's just always better to get as many attacks into a given time frame as possible.

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

But you see, it takes LESS amount of time to do a loop with DM, not the same amount of time. Like I've said twice before, you complete TWO attacks in 2.261 seconds, while you complete THREE attacks in 2.6733 seconds. You effectively shave off ~.4 seconds per loop. This means you can do more MBlossoms in a smaller amount of time. Does this make sense? Here, try this (note, it's not exactly accurate, but you get the jist):

1. MS -- DB --- MS -- DB --- MS -- DB --- MS -- DB
2. MS -- DB -- AA -- MS -- DB -- AA -- MS -- DB -- AA -- MS -- DB

There's the same amount of MBlossoms, but the 15% IAS completes it faster than the 33% IAS, though the 33% IAS gets a few autoattacks. Put simply, you get more DB's and MS's in with the same amount of time, but sacrifice a few autoattacks.

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

that dosnt make any sense. your not waiting on auto-attacks. of course you would cancel an auto-attack if you have a skill available, but you dont need to with 33% ias, the hits get through even when spamming DB/MS on recharge.

Sqube

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Behind you...

A/

Coloneh beat me to the punch, but what you put down simply isn't accurate. It's not like you're doing an auto-attack instead of restarting the DB+MS chain.

The auto-attack occurs because both skills are recharging and your attack speed is just that damn fast. I see what you wrote, but it's not actually accurate. You put an extra - in there for the Critical Agility version, and that's simply not accurate.

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

Edited it to show more accuracy. But what I'm trying to get at is that it takes more time to do MS + DB + Autoattack at 33% IAS (this is what you are forced to do because MS isn't recharged before the third hit) than it does to do MS + DM with a 15% IAS (MS recharges before the third hit, so there's no wasted time). You might get that extra autoattack, but it takes longer to do it.

EDIT: You do 4 MS+DB loops in 9.044 seconds with a 15% IAS, and 4 MS+DB+AA loops in 10.6932 seconds with a 33% IAS; AA=Autoattack.

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

Make a video.

odly

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

N/

Hmm, Normally things tend to die and then you have to start a new sequence anyway. What are you fighting that you cannot kill and need to optimise deathblossom cycles for ?

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

PvP always needs optimum?

AlienFromBeyond

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Heros of Titans Realm [HotR]

W/

Can't use Critical Agility in PvP so discussion is moot?

SotiCoto

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

PvP doesn't have Drunken Master nor Critical Agility mr Yan.... so that isn't relevant here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
what calculations? with crit agility you get the same number of attack skills in PLUS an auto attack PLUS armor. why the hell would you even consider drunken master over it? Drunken Master is a Stance... right?
More Ench-Strips than Stance-Strips out there.

Besides.... Apply Booze, use Dwarven Stability THEN Drunken Master.... and you have several minutes of drunken rampaging without it being readily removable.... and without it wearing off due to lack of criticals.



To be honest though, I'd STILL sooner use Critical Agility. I just don't carry around enough booze with me to make Drunken Master on a regular basis a worthwhile thing.
Drunken Master with Illusionary Weaponry however = Sex.

Symbol

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

This is just flat out wrong.

Attack skills cancel normal attacks, so there's nothing preventing you from doing MS + DB every 2.4455 seconds under 33% IAS.

Under 15% IAS that goes up to 2.56525 seconds.

More IAS is never worse.

BTW recharge for attack skills is listed recharge + (length of attack animation)/2, since the skill only starts recharging after you connect (which is halfway through the animation).

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

1.33 - 15% = 1.1305
1.33 - 33% = 0.8778

15% IAS
0 seconds: Activate MS
1.1305 seconds: Activate DB
2.261 seconds: Activate MS
3.3915 seconds: Activate DB
And so on

33% IAS:
0 seconds: Activate MS
0.8778 seconds: Activate DB
1.7556 seconds: MS recharging, autoattack
2.6334 seconds: Activate MS
3.5112 seconds: Activate DB
4.389 seconds: MS recharging, autoattack
And so on

Do you understand now? It takes 4.389 seconds to do 2 loops with 33% IAS, while it takes only 3.3915 seconds to do 2 loops with a 15% IAS. The 33% IAS does get 2 extra autoattacks, but everyone knows that assassin daggers hit for next to nothing. And I'm not actually saying that Drunken Master is better, I'm asking whether you people think it would do more damage than a 33% IAS. The only reason why I'm argueing is because I don't think you understand my math. Maybe I'm wrong and I've got the game mechanics messed up, but I don't think so. I've been working with attack speeds, especially with Moebius Blossom, for a long while now. If you'd post how exactly you got those numbers, I would appreciate it.

Sqube

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Behind you...

A/

At this point, I think the simplest solution would be empirical. I'm at work, so I won't be able to do this anytime soon, but go beat on the Master of Damage for a while with Drunken Master. Do the same thing with Critical Agility. Then see which one nets you more damage. That would be the more efficient one.

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

Unfortunately, I can't test it until I get EotN, so make sure you take some screenies for me.

FlamingMetroid

FlamingMetroid

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

standing on your last control point, while the rest of your team is to busy killing mine

The Luminaries [Lumi]

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
Unfortunately, I can't test it until I get EotN, so make sure you take some screenies for me. you're making speculations on a skill in a game you dont even have why?

Symbol

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:

Do you understand now? It takes 4.389 seconds to do 2 loops with 33% IAS, while it takes only 3.3915 seconds to do 2 loops with a 15% IAS. The 33% IAS does get 2 extra autoattacks, but everyone knows that assassin daggers hit for next to nothing. And I'm not actually saying that Drunken Master is better, I'm asking whether you people think it would do more damage than a 33% IAS. The only reason why I'm argueing is because I don't think you understand my math. Maybe I'm wrong and I've got the game mechanics messed up, but I don't think so. I've been working with attack speeds, especially with Moebius Blossom, for a long while now. If you'd post how exactly you got those numbers, I would appreciate it. Your math is wrong.

Moebius strike takes 2 + 1.1305/2 = 2.5625 seconds to recharge under 15% IAS, from the moment you hit the key to the moment it becomes available again.

Under 33% IAS there's nothing preventing you from canceling the autoattack and mashing the MS button as soon as it lights up. The recycle would be 2 + .8911/2 = 2.4455 seconds in that case. Of course if you don't want to bother you still get 1 MS + 1 DB + 1 autoattack every 2.6733 seconds, which is almost certainly going to be better than 15% IAS damage-wise.

More IAS is better, period. In this case it doesn't matter much either way, since your DPS is limited mostly by skill recharge, but that doesn't change the facts.

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

Yeah, ok my point is moot in this thread....but the statement is true!

SotiCoto

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
1.33 - 15% = 1.1305
1.33 - 33% = 0.8778..... etc.
Moebius and Death Blossom take the same amount of time to recharge either way.
The extra attack with 33% IAS doesn't interfere with the time taken to activate the skills... so it is basically a free attack with no extra time required. It might only be a measly 10 damage or something, but it is a freebie... and will get an extra point of energy with Zealous daggers (or more if Critical) / extra health with Vampiric daggers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanman.be
Yeah, ok my point is moot in this thread....but the statement is true! Yes Yan. You are correct. You are totally and utterly right about something totally and utterly irrelevant.
Happy now?

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

Irrelevant to this thread.

SotiCoto

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanman.be
Irrelevant to this thread. YES Yan... irrelevant to this thread.
Perfectly relevant to PvP.... and to things not involving PvE-exclusive skills....
But irrelevant to this thread.
But you're still right.

Now here is your trophy:

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

Quote:
Originally Posted by SotiCoto
Moebius and Death Blossom take the same amount of time to recharge either way.
The extra attack with 33% IAS doesn't interfere with the time taken to activate the skills... so it is basically a free attack with no extra time required. It might only be a measly 10 damage or something, but it is a freebie... and will get an extra point of energy with Zealous daggers (or more if Critical) / extra health with Vampiric daggers. I'm not talking about the recharge, I'm talking about attack speeds. Moebius starts RECHARGING at 0 seconds; a 2 second timer begins. at .8778 seconds you pop off a Death Blossom. at 1.7556 seconds, Moebius is still not recharged, so your character just does an autoattack instead. The next point where you attack is at 2.6334 seconds, which is when you would next hit with Moebius, or, the restart of the timer. Therefore, it takes 2.6334 seconds to go through one loop.

Now, for the 15% IAS, the attack speed is one attack per 1.1305 seconds. So, start Moebius at 0 seconds. at 1.1305 seconds, you use DB. Then, you use Moebius again at 2.261 seconds, since it recharged at 2 seconds. So basically, a loop of Moebius and Death Blossom takes 2.6334 seconds for a 33% IAS, with an autoattack included, while it only takes 2.261 seconds for a 15% IAS, no autoattacks. Therefore, it takes less time to complete and continue a Moebius chain with a 15% IAS than it does with a 33% IAS.

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

Make a video.


*edit*

Just did some testing... My drunken master is at 12%.

Master of damage clearly showed less damage @ 12% vs Critical aglity @ 33%.

Testing with serpent's quickness showed a rather nice increase of 5 to 10%.

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

no. you just dont get it. faster attack speed = faster attacking. how do you not get that? im easily one of the most simple concepts in the game.

please stop arguing this topic if your not going to make a video or show some real calculations.

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

I don't have EotN to test Drunken Master. And I'm not saying you attack slower with a 33% IAS, I'm saying you do the MBlossom loop slower than you would with a 15% IAS. Is it really that hard to understand? Due to Moebius Strike's recharge, you do an autoattack in the MBlossom loop (with 33%), which in turn make the loop take longer to restart. With a 15% IAS, you're slowed down just enough so that you can get in Moebius before an autoattack, which lets you start your combo again faster.

It's like if you have a 3-attack combo with no IAS and a 33% IAS. They're both going to get in about the same amount of attack skills in about the same amount of time because all offhand attacks have a recharge of 4 or more, which means that the 33% IAS may get in those attack skills faster, and have more autoattacks, but it won't do more attack skills than a non-IAS would, due solely to recharge.

Sqube

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Behind you...

A/

If you ignore autoattacks, Jaigoda, your point could very well be correct (I don't have Drunken Master to try it out, so this is a purely theoretical discussion).

However, for your point to be valid - that is, for a 15% IAS to be considered superior to a 33% IAS - you have to assume that when you're not using attack skills, you aren't doing anything at all. That assumption is erroneous. The 33% IAS allows you to do autoattacks that you wouldn't have the time for if you were only using a 15% IAS.

So, to recap: from a purely theoretical standpoint, ignoring autoattacks, you could be right. However, in the gameworld, where you will be doing autoattacks that don't have a negative effect on the amount of times that you use, I'm pretty sure a 33% IAS will always work better.

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

Yes, that was basically my point: Faster loops, or an extra autoattack? I wanted people's opinions on which they would prefer. Like you said in another post, the autoattacks also give you benefits from vampiric and zealous weapons, as well as damage buffs (though I mentioned that before). But I'm glad that you understand it now, I was afraid I had somehow made a fatal mistake in my math.

SotiCoto

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
I'm not talking about the recharge, I'm talking about attack speeds. Moebius starts RECHARGING at 0 seconds; a 2 second timer begins. at .8778 seconds you pop off a Death Blossom. at 1.7556 seconds, Moebius is still not recharged, so your character just does an autoattack instead. The next point where you attack is at 2.6334 seconds, which is when you would next hit with Moebius, or, the restart of the timer. Therefore, it takes 2.6334 seconds to go through one loop.

Now, for the 15% IAS, the attack speed is one attack per 1.1305 seconds. So, start Moebius at 0 seconds. at 1.1305 seconds, you use DB. Then, you use Moebius again at 2.261 seconds, since it recharged at 2 seconds. So basically, a loop of Moebius and Death Blossom takes 2.6334 seconds for a 33% IAS, with an autoattack included, while it only takes 2.261 seconds for a 15% IAS, no autoattacks. Therefore, it takes less time to complete and continue a Moebius chain with a 15% IAS than it does with a 33% IAS. -_-;
Let us try this again....
IAS does not influence skill recharge. It will however influence how long it takes to ACTIVATE an attack skill... thus an attack will be done and the next one usable faster.
Naturally... faster IAS in this case means you can chain off the attack skills faster too.
And since it doesn't influence the recharge... this means a slightly longer gap while waiting for them... into which an AutoAttack can easily be slotted.

As such... the comparisons end up rather like this (total time being Moebius recharge):

00% : MS------DB--
15% : MS----DB----
33% : MS--DB--A--

Under 15% IAS... the time to execute Moebius Strike is longer, and thus Death Blossom cannot be triggered so quickly... and likewise takes longer to trigger itself, taking up the remainder of Moebius Strike's recharge time.
Under 33% IAS... the time to execute Moebius Strike and Death Blossom are less, meaning DB can be used sooner and likewise ends sooner, leaving more of a gap after, during which an auto-attack can be used. Furthermore, even if the autoattack is a micron of a moment late (unlikely, being an automated process), Moebius Strike can still cut in immediately upon recharge so no time is lost (autoattacks don't use dedicated time). The loops are exactly the same length either way.

It is all quite elementary really.


Do you understand yet?

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

I HAVE DRUNKEN MASTER AND YOU DO NOT LOOP FASTER OK. YOU DO NOT GET MORE MS/DB PER MINUTE IF YOU USE 15% IAS vs 33%. MORE LIKE THE OTHER WAY AROUND.