What, no elite on your bar?

This comment was listed as one of his peeves in Ulterion's post to the "In-game peeves" thread and it got me to thinking ...

I'm been in groups where, after pinging bars, people have said to someone in the party "you have no elite?" and, yes, a couple of times it was me on the receiving end.

Normally, I wouldn't even think of not having an elite on my bar. The one exception was my 1st rit. After perusing the elites on the wiki, I just didn't see any that looked interesting or useful enough (in terms of E cost, duration, effect) to bother capping. The lack of an elite didn't seem to limit her effectiveness in any way - Protector an all 3 campaigns, solo'd Masters on Jennuhr's Horde, Varesh, etc, blah blah blah.

I did recently cap Spirit's Stength - it's a lovely skill, cheap, long duration, nice effect. After trying it out for a bit, however, I find it of limited usefulness in that I'm usually only getting a few actual wand-shots off between casting spells. Still, every little bit helps and since I'm usually out with H&H, I suppose I could take it instead of res, that would still leave 7 others with res. Doing so in a PUG, though, might not be such a good idea.

So, I was curious if other people have chars that intentionally forego using any elites? And what do you tell people when they ask why you don't?

With most builds, an elite could replace a skill on the bar and do a better job.

Rits do have fairly useless elites. However, Spirit Light Weapon, Offering of Spirit, and Attuned was Songkai are 3 good elites, and you will have points in atleast one of these attributes.

As mentioned, most elites tend to be improved versions of basic skills. More often than not you can find room for an elite on your bar that would make a significant difference. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single build I've used that couldn't do with an elite in one way or another.

Still, as what elites you can and do have depends greatly on what campaigns you own, I don't believe it's particularly fair to berate people over it. We all had to make due with basic skills until we could cap those elites we wanted, and somehow we managed. So I don't see how you couldn't go on without them if you so chose to.

Not having any elite skills generally means you've been playing for about 10 minutes, and are therefore bad. I'll give you that most elite rit skills are bad, bu there's still a few (offering of spirit) worth bringing.

...

Elites are normally worth taking.

Unless it's like "Coward".

Then goodness knows why you're taking it/why you have that.

I normally insist my puggers take an elite, if only because it'll make things slightly more interesting.

Generally speaking, there is an elite that is basically the same as a normal skill, only better. That being said, not everyone thinks to check where to cap them, and may not even be aware of the ability to buy more sigs.

I've encountered quite a few people who *just* want to play the game - they don't want to dig around in forums or guild wiki at all. Personally, I love capping elites - they benefit my character and become available for my heroes. I can remember when i finally got flesh golem and how anxious i was to give Olias a sup death rune and max the thing out.

Anyway, yeah - elites are good mmmkay

Meh, when I started playing, it was on my necro, and I ran with no elite all the way through Prophecies. Of course, this was pre-SR and pre-MM nerfs, so I was able to keep up massive armies without the need for any elites.

It's very possible, even now, to make entirely effective builds without elites - especially with PvE-only skills. Still, elites are designed to be better, and in most cases are better, than normal skills, and will make your build more effective by definition. If you have them, use them, if not, get them. <- Moral of the story.

wanderlust owns

although the -50 spirit nerf wasn't fair for regular pve'ers

i believe before factions on my ele i didn't carry an elite for the longest time i think it was time i got factions is when i started trying out more elites. it was actually nightfall when he started carrying one regularly

There are only a VERY few times I've gone without one.

There has been an occasional farming build over time that didn't use one.

A minion master doesn't have any really good elites out there. Not that the skills they have are bad, but the elites for them typically aren't all that "elite" (at least compared to other class/builds). But then, the MM is strong enough as is, I can't see how they could have a skill truly worthy of being called an "elite" anyway and still have anything close to balance. Up until the major MM change at Factions release I normally ran without one.

And, lastly, when I did not have any. The only time this was more than a few days was back when I very first started playing. As of now I blow through most of the game with new characters or, now, just use an elite skill tome.

Other than that, I pretty much see no good builds out there that do not use one. As is said, they are normally a better drop in replacement for a regular skill. Personally I wouldn't be terribly picky about it, GW PvE is MUCH more centered on teamwork than your skill bar anyway - though I would ask why they didn't use one.

some builds i have don't need an elite because there isn't one that is sufficiant for use in it.

[skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill][skill]Order of Undeath[/skill][skill]Jagged Bones[/skill]

Do not mention Flesh Golem.

I cleared pretty much ALL areas I've come to yet without an elite. My heroes, for the longest time, had no elites aswell. (Most still dont, only my favourites, currently.)

Mark of Pain and a melee hero is a poor mans SS. Once I got SS, I kept MoP for a little while and started realizing the two did not function well together, infact MoP in some cases was better than SS because of the fact it killed the mob faster than the target. SS can do either or, depending, and at which point you're left with 1 dead target, maybe one other SS is still active and only half of the mob is a5 50% health and VERY pissed off. (Though, when it DOES work nicely, that many numbers flying off all at once is *VERY* agreeable.)

Elites are better for most things but a lot of it comes from prestige aswell.
(You might even find a challenge in playing without elites.)

Another Flash Golem hater. *scoffs.*
We all know the only reason people don't like it is the fact there are just 'better' skills.

He does his job; slow, steady, brainless, damage buffer. He's not a damage dealer, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he 'sucks.'
Don't hate, appreciate. Exploitable corpse AND Sou Reaping bonus? Yes please!

The best players, play without elites.

Strictly inferior? Yes please? AotL lets you spam blood of the master and tank better than pretty much any other caster (with dark bond, you can tank as good as a 55). OoU gives superior damage (it has been tested) while JB is awesome with minion bombing as well as making minions when there are no bodies

Flesh Golem does a good job of taking a hell of a long time recharging and slowly killing things

As an ele, I'd be pretty lost without my elites. Air and Water don't really have very good elites, but dual attunes works very well.

Didn't play in 2005 I am guessing?

And you know everything about the 'better' skills because you know that the acronym OoU is 'Aura(Order) of Undeath.' (Wait for it, wait for it; 'ouch, sick burn.')

Every skill in the game has it's purpose and practical application unless otherwise nerfed beyond repair. A Stupid Flesh Golem isn't nearly as bad as a Stupid Minion Master who will likely KILL himself off entirely from OoU because he hasn't sufficient self heal enough. An AoTL Necromancer is an appetizer for any life stealing attacks as they're just not reduced and degen hurts too.

Oh god 2005.

One Ele does Lightning Surge, then that ele and rest queue up Chain Lightning, Followed by Lightning Orb, then Lightning Strike.

321airspike, those were the weird days. But strangely fun.

I am not impressed with many rit elites, but I have come to really enjoy one of them. I love Signet of Spirits. I mostly Channel since I do a lot of H/H. And H/Hs don't seem to have any clue unless you are attacking. (And after a few moments ago in Surmia Hard Mode, I am not sure they have a clue when you are attacking as minions, Oli, Koss, Rurik, and Erol all simply stood there and watched me solo a Charr Chaot/Mind Spark team - I gave all of them my oppinion on that too. Dunk properly avoided combat and healed as instructed.) On my Rit tho, I am running: Flesh of my Flesh, Signet of Spirits, Spirit Rift, Wielder's Strike, Splinter Weapon, Bloodsong, Agony, and Vampirism. I find the elite very useful in maintaining a constand flood of Spirit Rift and thus keeping my H/H focussed while I dash short distances to keep my spirits separated from AoE attacks.

That being said, currently my two most used MM builds on my heroes do not have any elites at all. Both center on minions and Death Nova. My current Mesmer builds (non-hero) have no elites at all as she is 14th level and ust leaving Ascalon. She only recently escaped Istan after completing the minimum necessary to do so on her own merit and is now doing Prophecies for free skills. (My Mes heroes use Migraine, and my Ele occasionally uses echo.)

My Paragon, survivor, is about 20% on way to rank 2 survivor, and does not use any elite skills at all. He is Party Support Para without the elite in that build (can't get to it) so he has been using For Great Justice instead. So far so good.

Recently I started using my ranger as Bunny-Thumper - but she does not have the skills needed. So, instead I am using Heal as One and Never Rampage Alone, and then some hammer attacks. It got her masters in Raisu and against Shiro. So, good enough.

So, elites can be fun, but they are not always needed. The builds listed in PvX are great inspiration, and sometimes needed just as is for special teams or missions. But it is better to have the skills you can work well, than the skills that work for someone else and which you cannot work.

Would be nice if this was true. Many skills have no purpose or practical application. An example of this is Clamor of Souls, which has no practical use, and really has no purpose compared to other skills in the same attribute, which do the same thing, better, and non-elite.

Oh I know I've won this now. An arguement is always lost when you resort to insulting knowledge instead of countering arguements

It has been tested with 10 fiends that for the duration OoU is up, it cannot kill you.

Also a good MM used [skill]Dark Bond[/skill] and [skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill] and possibly Vampiric Horrors.

Yes. Because life steal is running rampant in PvE isn't it? I mean there are lots of life-stealers in PvE aren't there? Maybe kournans or djinns? No they don't life steal. How about titans or imps? No, don't think so. Maybe afflicted are powerful life stealers or even possible charr? Let me think of the life stealing skills they use..........

This might take a while

Again, AotL + DB + MR = near invincibility

*ahem.*

[/QUOTE]
With many minions, the health loss can get out of hand. Try to either lower your health by using superior runes or have a powerful healing spell ready.

Assuming you have ten Horror-type minions that start attacking the moment you cast the spell, then assuming that all the minion's attacks hit, you will lose a total of 50% of your maximum health over the course of 5 seconds (assuming you have 480 health, that's 240 health), or 9.6 health lost per attack. At 16 Death Magic, this will deal total bonus damage of 340 damage. In combination with the minions' base damage, this is usually enough to kill a level 20 character in one casting.

If, however, you are using ten Bone Fiends (which attack somewhat faster than Horrors), the damage (and corresponding sacrifice) are much higher: a total loss of 70% of your maximum health, in return for 510 bonus damage.

The most efficient minion combination seems to be 5 Vampiric Horrors and 5 Bone Fiends. Against an AL 60 target, the Horrors and Fiends both average around 33 damage per hit, resulting in a net gain (from Vampiric Horrors) of (at 480 maximum health) 14 life per hit. This causes 28 health gained per casting from Vampiric Horrors, while Bone Fiends cost 29 health per cast. Overall, this will cost you a total of 48 life, plus one per minion pair. If you are using life-reducing Runes, it is possible to have more Fiends than Horrors and still result in little life lost. This is, of course, without factoring in the variable damage that the minions can do, resulting in varied health gains per hit.[/QUOTE]

I suppose they're lying then, eh?
Let's for arguements sake, just safely assume that you never get hit at all when that never happens.


Yeah it would take me a while to find every source of life stealing and degen in ALL of Guild Wars. No monsters ever use ravenous Gaze in nightfall. (annoying assed Mandragors maybe?)

You've never come across ANY of these?
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Life_st...uick_reference

What about these?
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Regen/Degen_health_skills_quick_reference#Decrease_recov ery

Those are a lot of skills available to characters and monsters in pve.
Shame, they're never used.

This discussion was had over at GWOnline, and in I believe 20 pages of thread, not one build was posted that consisted of entirely non-elite skills that wouldn't be made better by adding an elite.

Where does it say that the necro would kill himself using it? You only provided evidence in support of what I said; that 10 fiends a using OoU won't kill you

Let's ignore that I said a OoU necro would most like had Dark Bond and Mystic Regen (as well as Infuse Condition) which would grant him +6 regen (+9 with 8pts into Earth Prayers). No that's silly. I'll just run Flesh Golem, shambling horrors, fiends, bone horrors and heal area like most MM in the game run! I mean if the majority uses it then they must be right?

Try harder. 1 creature is all you could think of? 1 creature? Out of over a hundred, you could only think of a one.

A better rebuttal to my answer is the EotN dinosaurs with their monster skill and the Angorodons but if you're stupid enough to go there with low health then you deserve to die.

[quote]As I said, how many PvE monsters use those skills?

[skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill] + [skill]Dark Bond[/skill] + [skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill].

Look at the last skill.

Because out of a party of 8, you will always get targeted first. Of course! Why didn't I see that earlier? The necromancer always gets attacked!

So you're saying that ten minutes after first buying GW you had managed to get to level 20 and get to a zone where there were elite skills available for your profession?

Even if I got run right out of pre-searing and straight to Beacon's Perch, bought a sig of capture along the way, and jump out and had a group kill the first boss we saw for me... I couldn't get an elite in 10 minutes. And as for Factions and Nightfall... just loading all the missions between level 1 and where you can get the first elite is going to take a lot longer than 10 minutes.

An elite is a skill that is better than most however, depending on what you are trying to do with your build and what class you are, it might be difficult to fit an elite in.

21 out of 29 of those life stealing skills appear on monsters in pve. (Give or take.)

Degen, is degen. It's common enough. With +9 regen, you can still be negated entirely with *HEAVY* enough degen witht he caps. (Rare, but it can//does happen.)

Really, I think we can find a better place to discuss the Flesh Golem//OoU comparisons other then here. This probably isn't the first time this has been debated over.

Where I do agree; a SMART MM wont die to OoU, some kid hitting wiki because he wants the leet DPS of OoU wont have the same finess that sya, you or any other pro MMer would have. (And should be better off as a N//M, one-of-each-kind, zookeeper.)

Still not to say Flesh Golem is entirely useless. He's not there to kill fast.
I agree, OoU damage is unparalleled. But Vampiric Horrors and Bone fiends cant soak up the pure ABUSE that a Flesh Golem can. He's like a free higher than level cap Warrior Hench (though without skills, so really more like a prophecies warrior hench) When you want to bring your Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Monk (or other necros) heroes instead of your Fighters. (That you can ALWAYS res//heal by yourself in a pinch. I don't consider 30 second recharge a LONG time to wait.)

If I wanted to bring an all Necro MM hero party? Sure I'd give one Flesh Golem just for fun, if not 2 of them for fun, and keep myself as the OoU.

Lastly for the record; I'm not knocking AoTL either, like I said originally every skill, in my belief, has its own practical application. Knocking on one just because there is better isn't necessary. No one forces anyone to use it.

It's whatever floats our boat. I've never seen a MM kicked for fielding either in a PUG.

Whatever though, man, we go our seperate ways. My seperate way brings 600 hp 103 armor AND OoU with AoTL hand in hand. (Although, never in the same skill bar, sadly.)

As far as the OP, y'see what Rukus elites can cause? lol

[skill]Icy Veins[/skill] should not be forgotten, it's cool!

no-one mentioned [skill]glyph of renewal[/skill] as the best MM skill ever ..

I loved those days...

Aside MM discussion, i have yet to see build which does not benefit from nonelite spell instead of elite.

Usually "builds working just fine" dont really do, but users got used to them so they cant see them underperforming. /best example is bad energy management: if you get used to regen after combat, you wont notice it, if you party with people who can handle their energy, you just rant about damn unconsiderate rushers and dont take hint./

There is only one reason for not having elite on skillbar: you cant cap it yet or you cant afford to cap it /doh, but understandable/.

I would like to be proved wrong thou, with build that simply works without elite on 100%...

But i have little faith for that: standard iconic builds have fitting and proven elites, and new original builds usually have to depend on gimmick to work on at least same level as standards and elites provide best gimmicks since they usually break rules.

Very wrong. My skillbar is elite-free and I generally kick hiney.

If you want to discuss the finer points of MM, take it to the correct forum.

I've done missions with my skillbar skill-free entirely. Does that mean I'm good? No, it means PvE is easy enough that I can be a burden on my team and still get by.

Players want the best skillbars to reduce the pressure on them to carry weaker characters.

I've won HA matches playing a Blood necro/Beast master...am I l33t too?

Way back when I first played Prophecies I didn't have any elites til I got to Drok's... The long way.

Then you consider this, are most of them high life steal with relatively low recharge spammed by monsters on a single target? Nope. Most are kinda small pieces and they are rarely focused on a single target.

I use Dark Bond, AotL, Infuse Conditions and Mystic Regen at spec 8 Earth Prayers. That gives me +12 as well as making me immune to conditions. Overkill? Probably but it also means that I can be careless with aggro as I'm harder to kill than a 55.

Read my post and what part I highlighted. I never said Flesh Golem is useless, I was saying countering his statement that there was no good MM elites before Factions.

I was responding to a false blanket statement - not simply blowing my own horn... nor am I scoffing at elite skills.

I used to run bars without an elite.
I wanted to play a specific way and there 8 skills that I considered more fun then any of the elites available. Hence - no elite on my bar.