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Originally Posted by Olim lll
I was responding to a false blanket statement - not simply blowing my own horn... nor am I scoffing at elite skills.
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What, no elite on your bar?
Avarre
Olim Chill
Understood, no problem. ^
Kusandaa
IMHO most builds are more effective with an elite skill, but that's me. For a while I ran a channeling build on my rit that had no elite, yet worked very well. I run with Clamor of Souls - I don't rush in front to use it... I don't need to. Aggro is easily broken, they come to me, I zap 'em.
My MM runs mostly with OoU, or AotL when I feel like tanking. I like OoU, suits my style of play; I deal damage and still have the MM wall ('cause I don't run with fiends... yes I know they have a good attack speed and works really well with OoU, but they don't bodyblock enough for me, or cause distraction to foes).
My MM runs mostly with OoU, or AotL when I feel like tanking. I like OoU, suits my style of play; I deal damage and still have the MM wall ('cause I don't run with fiends... yes I know they have a good attack speed and works really well with OoU, but they don't bodyblock enough for me, or cause distraction to foes).
Sab
The *only* build I've seen with no viable elite is a N/P Blood Spiker in HA.
[skill]Shadow Strike[/skill][skill]Oppressive Gaze[/skill][skill]Vampiric Gaze[/skill][skill]"Fall Back!"[/skill][skill]"Make Haste!"[/skill][skill]"Brace Yourself!"[/skill][skill]Song of Concentration[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
[skill]Shadow Strike[/skill][skill]Oppressive Gaze[/skill][skill]Vampiric Gaze[/skill][skill]"Fall Back!"[/skill][skill]"Make Haste!"[/skill][skill]"Brace Yourself!"[/skill][skill]Song of Concentration[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
ischuros
The reason that there arnt many builds (popular/wiki ones) that don't have elites is that when you make a build, from what I've done anyway, you get an elite and then some skills to complement it. In the early days of NF, with Reaper's Mark, a guildie of mine came out with a build built around it. Of course it has been polished since then, with different ways of combining skills.
Unless you have two or three normal skills that work well with each other, or were intended to work with each other (like a Minion Master build in proph) you generally don't get non-Elite builds since nearly all new builds are built around an elite from the start.
I'm sure someone will point out that that is not the case for some builds, but from what I've done, it's take an elite and build a bar around it, and I would say that is what happens most often.
Unless you have two or three normal skills that work well with each other, or were intended to work with each other (like a Minion Master build in proph) you generally don't get non-Elite builds since nearly all new builds are built around an elite from the start.
I'm sure someone will point out that that is not the case for some builds, but from what I've done, it's take an elite and build a bar around it, and I would say that is what happens most often.
Dimitri_Stucoff
Personally I would rather have an elite on my bar. Lets face it these skills are an elite for a reason, that is why they are limited to one. The only character I did not carry an elite on myself for a long time was my rit, and that was because there was no elite to complement what I was running, eg. the slot was better filled with a common skill which had greater synergy with everything else on my bar. I had no elites avalible to me at the time of the creation of the bar thus I managed with what I had, as it worked. To me this is the only time not having an elite is good, when all the elite currently have no synergy with your bar. That or you are just starting out. However, now I run something that does have an elite in it, completly redid my build, and admittably it is much better than what I was running before. Remember the good old days when you had to wait till the desert to even get a monster that you could cap a elite from? By then you were between level 15-20. Granted you managed, however, the moment you got a decent elite that is when you really started to pump out the damage or do you job really well. Heck go retry some of the old chapter 1 desert area with an elite. You will find it is almost bethticly easy. So end in end, the only time a elite is really not needed is when no other skill has enough synergy with the rest of the bar or party to be useful (as in your a complete utility character there to carry the burdens of what other charcters did not have space to run). Anyway that is my two cents. Cheers.
Tarkin
Only 2 or 3 times in my 2 years and 6 months of GW... i dont use a elite in my skill bar... but this builds are very very very specific for something...
P.S. 1: paragorns, dervishs, rit, in this order are the harder to select a elite to use... my paragorn ever go for support and i use cautery signet... in my dervish i normaly use some form skill... and in my rit vanderlust is a must... but i ever find a nice elite to use...
cant see a elite to complet your build? cautery signet...
P.S 2: in this last months i working (solo) in hard mode, missions and Vanquisher areas... (i finish tyria, elona and cantha missions and Vanquisher cantha and half of elona and Vanquisher 10/52 areas in tyria... stoped the rest of the world and focus in GWEN area now...) my first build are a 3 sfs and a mm + henchs (this months ago in cantha)... a complete fail... the areas go the missions go the time pass and better and better my team build are...
Now i use 3 earth eles the 2 hench monks from the area a interrupter if area have, the mesmer from the area or some other good hench from the area + DEVONA... but my fouth hero is a smiter with divine boon and smiter boon + SB + smiter con and smiter hex... OR a MM hero... i begin with the classic golen build but in hard mode you must get the best skill bar for the areas and the best for the areas is SS elite... because in some areas 1 foe or boss can kill all mm in a single strike...
what i can say with that? you ever can fit a nice elite to your build... area have lots of bodys? golen... need minions and dont have lots of bodys? JB... the dungeon boss kill all yours minions with 1 strike in Hard mode and still with 98% of life? SS... what is the best elite skill? is your brain... if i still with the same build i never complet my first Vanquisher area...
Sorry about my english...
P.S. 1: paragorns, dervishs, rit, in this order are the harder to select a elite to use... my paragorn ever go for support and i use cautery signet... in my dervish i normaly use some form skill... and in my rit vanderlust is a must... but i ever find a nice elite to use...
cant see a elite to complet your build? cautery signet...P.S 2: in this last months i working (solo) in hard mode, missions and Vanquisher areas... (i finish tyria, elona and cantha missions and Vanquisher cantha and half of elona and Vanquisher 10/52 areas in tyria... stoped the rest of the world and focus in GWEN area now...) my first build are a 3 sfs and a mm + henchs (this months ago in cantha)... a complete fail... the areas go the missions go the time pass and better and better my team build are...
Now i use 3 earth eles the 2 hench monks from the area a interrupter if area have, the mesmer from the area or some other good hench from the area + DEVONA
... but my fouth hero is a smiter with divine boon and smiter boon + SB + smiter con and smiter hex... OR a MM hero... i begin with the classic golen build but in hard mode you must get the best skill bar for the areas and the best for the areas is SS elite... because in some areas 1 foe or boss can kill all mm in a single strike... what i can say with that? you ever can fit a nice elite to your build... area have lots of bodys? golen... need minions and dont have lots of bodys? JB... the dungeon boss kill all yours minions with 1 strike in Hard mode and still with 98% of life? SS... what is the best elite skill? is your brain... if i still with the same build i never complet my first Vanquisher area...
Sorry about my english...
Drakken Breathes Fire
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Originally Posted by blue.rellik
Read my post and what part I highlighted. I never said Flesh Golem is useless, I was saying countering his statement that there was no good MM elites before Factions.
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NOW I feel like an idiot.
Ctb
Of course you don't have to have an elite. Most of each campaign can be completed with all regular skills if you actually know what you're doing, and anybody who can't do that without an elite is probably the person who doesn't know what they're doing.
Now, if we're talking PvP or high-end PvE areas, that's entirely different. The margin of error in those is much slimmer, so the upgraded skills are paramount.
90% of each campaign isn't like that, however.
Now, if we're talking PvP or high-end PvE areas, that's entirely different. The margin of error in those is much slimmer, so the upgraded skills are paramount.
90% of each campaign isn't like that, however.
Jetdoc
There was a thread on gwonline about this very subject, and it wound up degrading to a "prove it" mentality (i.e. post a build that we can't make better with an elite or else it doesn't exist). Hopefully this thread doesn't go that way.
Ctb
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| i.e. post a build that we can't make better with an elite or else it doesn't exist |
Antheus
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Originally Posted by Ctb
Anything with Mending is already perfect, regardless of whether it has an elite or not, so therefore I win the argument.
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[skill]Echo[/skill]
Skyy High
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
There was a thread on gwonline about this very subject, and it wound up degrading to a "prove it" mentality (i.e. post a build that we can't make better with an elite or else it doesn't exist). Hopefully this thread doesn't go that way.
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MagmaRed
Although there are places an elite is 'required' for a PUG, not all places need an elite to be effective or fun. If I'm in Tombs and a R/Mo has no elite (Barrage), then I kick the person. Yes, I have seen Rangers in Tombs with no elites at all. However, all classes have skills that can do what is needed for general quests or missions without using an elite. Elites may make the same build better, but that doesn't meant he build won't work. As long as the person has skills selected that allow them to do the job they need to do for the team, I can live with them not using an elite.
I have yet to see a build that cannot be made better by adding an elite though.
I have yet to see a build that cannot be made better by adding an elite though.
DarkGanni
Got a Personal FoW tanking build and beats most of the builds out there and no elite, sadly no one understands what I mean and so I get kicked. For those with a similar problem I feel your pain :'(
Antheus
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Originally Posted by DarkGanni
Got a Personal FoW tanking build and beats most of the builds out there and no elite, sadly no one understands what I mean and so I get kicked. For those with a similar problem I feel your pain :'(
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Wyrmdog
I enjoy my elites, but to be honest so long as a person is pulling their weight in the team, I couldn't care less what's on their skill bar.
Darkobra
I went through Prophecies on every character without an elite. I didn't know where to get them, what ones were good and I was killing fine without an elite, so as far as I was concerned, I didn't need them.
Besides, PvE is easy enough. (Providing you take heroes/hench or have a very, very experienced, co-ordinated, intelligent team. So that's PuGs out the question.) At worst, you can scrape by without an elite.
Besides, PvE is easy enough. (Providing you take heroes/hench or have a very, very experienced, co-ordinated, intelligent team. So that's PuGs out the question.) At worst, you can scrape by without an elite.
Lagg
[skill]Signet of Humility[/skill] [skill]Price of Pride[/skill]
Jetdoc
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
Why shouldn't it? It's the only way for one side or another to win the argument; all this, "Well I did such and such without an elite," doesn't really mean anything if the build that was run would have been better with an elite.
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Kusandaa
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Originally Posted by Darkobra
I went through Prophecies on every character without an elite. I didn't know where to get them, what ones were good and I was killing fine without an elite, so as far as I was concerned, I didn't need them.
Besides, PvE is easy enough. (Providing you take heroes/hench or have a very, very experienced, co-ordinated, intelligent team. So that's PuGs out the question.) At worst, you can scrape by without an elite. |
But most elite choice is highly contextual, and even there, a bunch of stuff will work. Take The Deep - nukers go either Renewal (I use that), Dual Attune or SF, and I bet some run Echo for Arcane Echo and MS. In an area where there's a lot of enchantment removal, I won't run AotL as an MM - I'll run OoU instead, the opposite when we determine someone has to tank and I offer myself (no way I'm gonna run OoU if I'm a N/D tank x]). While in Tombs, a b/p ranger is required to have Barrrage.
Friar Khan
There have been times where I found that there was no elite skill that would be as useful as the skills I was already using. It's something that happens, though rarely.
Often when a build is better without an elite then there's a very definite and well thought out reason for it. I can't recall ever having to defend a build that had no elite, but if I ever had I'm sure that citing my reasoning would have gone a long way.
Generally, if you're playing normal mode PvE that isn't an elite mission or dungeon then build isn't terribly important. At times if I'm playing with h/h and I feel like chatting then I'll mostly aggro and let the heroes do all the work. Of course you wouldn't want to be so lazy in a pug, but I'm just saying that you can play most PvE without being a build nazi or caring much if people think your bar is nub.
Often when a build is better without an elite then there's a very definite and well thought out reason for it. I can't recall ever having to defend a build that had no elite, but if I ever had I'm sure that citing my reasoning would have gone a long way.
Generally, if you're playing normal mode PvE that isn't an elite mission or dungeon then build isn't terribly important. At times if I'm playing with h/h and I feel like chatting then I'll mostly aggro and let the heroes do all the work. Of course you wouldn't want to be so lazy in a pug, but I'm just saying that you can play most PvE without being a build nazi or caring much if people think your bar is nub.
payne
you have no elite boohoo...you can make a perfectly good bar without an elite...BHA can be replaced by concussion shot (1st i thought of)
there are many alternatives to elite with normal skills! mostly cost more energy but in the end they amount to just a lesser version IMO...it is just discrimination IMO if you are not allowed into a group because you do not possess an elite!
there are many alternatives to elite with normal skills! mostly cost more energy but in the end they amount to just a lesser version IMO...it is just discrimination IMO if you are not allowed into a group because you do not possess an elite!
Kusandaa
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Originally Posted by payne
you have no elite boohoo...you can make a perfectly good bar without an elite...BHA can be replaced by concussion shot (1st i thought of)
there are many alternatives to elite with normal skills! mostly cost more energy but in the end they amount to just a lesser version IMO...it is just discrimination IMO if you are not allowed into a group because you do not possess an elite! |
korcan
semantically speaking, something elite should by definition be better then something that is normal.
unfortunately, that isnt always the case in terms of skill choices in gw, but i can understand why someone wouldnt allow you into their group if you werent packing an elite skill.
unfortunately, that isnt always the case in terms of skill choices in gw, but i can understand why someone wouldnt allow you into their group if you werent packing an elite skill.
Fitz Rinley
Often times the elite skills come with quirks or penalties that make them undesirable.
william1975
i normaly use elites but sometimes i dont need to, especially if im outfitting a pve only skill build
Martin Firestorm
Assuming you have enough unlocked, I can't inmagine any situation where you'd rather not have an elite on your bar. They are "elite" and you are restrcied to 1 on your bar for a reason.
MithranArkanere
Almost any skillbar with no elites will be always improved with an elite.
Other thing would be which ones. If the elites you have access to are no better, then there's no need to use them.
After getting to Droknar's Forge, Kaineng, or Sunspear Sanctuary, getting some elites is a must.
Other thing would be which ones. If the elites you have access to are no better, then there's no need to use them.
After getting to Droknar's Forge, Kaineng, or Sunspear Sanctuary, getting some elites is a must.
HawkofStorms
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Originally Posted by william1975
i normaly use elites but sometimes i dont need to, especially if im outfitting a pve only skill build
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Antheus
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Yeah... bars filled with stuff like necrois and what not might not benefit from an elite.
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Issac
Most people think that if you don't have an elite in your bar, your build fails :S. Sometimes you need an elite, some times you don't depending on the build lol.
-Pluto-
Sure there are builds that don't need an elite!
The rest of us will just run better builds that do need them.
The rest of us will just run better builds that do need them.
reddswitch
There're some normal skills that are on par with elite skills. As stated, it depends on what you're running, sometimes no elites fit in. As long as the bar makes sense it shouldn't be dismissed.
leprekan
No matter what class you are if you only have one Elite ... get headbutt. Works great on hero monks.
drago34
The only build I have ever come up with that I have never worked an elite into it is my sin's build. It has been the same build for 10months now and has never needed to be changed. I could never find one that I liked enough to work into the build. I'll post the build later, I'm too tired/lazy right now lol.
Yichi
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Originally Posted by -Pluto-
Sure there are builds that don't need an elite!
The rest of us will just run better builds that do need them. |
free_fall
Lots of good comments and suggestions.
I was fortunate in that my rit was never excluded from a group for not having an elite (though I have seen that happen). I would get asked about it on occassion and when I'd say I hadn't seen any I wanted, the response was usually "oh, ok".
That was an interesting comment about finding an elite you like and then building a bar around it - I'd never thought of doing something like that. I'm more the school of finding one that's like a regular skill you already use, only better.
That was the problem I had with the rit - I didn't see anything that I thought was really better than the skills I was using. As someone else pointed out, some elites, while looking interesting at first glance, carry drawbacks or penalties that may offset the 'better' part - high cost, long recharge, short duration, etc.
Then there's the question of cap locations. I always thought it was strange that in Proph, you can't cap Hundred Blades til like 10 minutes before the game ends - lot of good it does then. lol
On my para, I didn't research elites until after the one I really wanted was no longer available to me (only available in the Garden before it falls into Night), so my own fault there. So I make do with something else for the moment; I can always get it via a tome when I get back around to playing him.
I was fortunate in that my rit was never excluded from a group for not having an elite (though I have seen that happen). I would get asked about it on occassion and when I'd say I hadn't seen any I wanted, the response was usually "oh, ok".
That was an interesting comment about finding an elite you like and then building a bar around it - I'd never thought of doing something like that. I'm more the school of finding one that's like a regular skill you already use, only better.
That was the problem I had with the rit - I didn't see anything that I thought was really better than the skills I was using. As someone else pointed out, some elites, while looking interesting at first glance, carry drawbacks or penalties that may offset the 'better' part - high cost, long recharge, short duration, etc.
Then there's the question of cap locations. I always thought it was strange that in Proph, you can't cap Hundred Blades til like 10 minutes before the game ends - lot of good it does then. lol
On my para, I didn't research elites until after the one I really wanted was no longer available to me (only available in the Garden before it falls into Night), so my own fault there. So I make do with something else for the moment; I can always get it via a tome when I get back around to playing him.
Skyy High
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
As I told you in the other thread, it's simply a flawed test, as you can make any build better (whether you use non-elite or elite skills).
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So what if you could also improve a bar by tweaking other things? That doesn't disprove the fact that the sole action of replacing one skill with an elite makes a bar better.
At the whole, "What about bars packing necrosis," -> Elite energy management. Enough said. Being able to spam necrosis more simply improves what your build does already.
strcpy
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Originally Posted by blue.rellik
Read my post and what part I highlighted. I never said Flesh Golem is useless, I was saying countering his statement that there was no good MM elites before Factions.
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You will note this isn't saying the skills are bad, just saying they aren't really "Elite". If anything the arguing going back and forth is quite strong evidence that they are *not* deserving of Elite status. Most of them are Elite because they unbalance *other* builds or if they were not they would be too easy to abuse with other elites.
The Death Magic skills that *are* worthy of Elite aren't really directly Minion Master skills - though of course we can use them. If Order of Undeath had some way to cancel itself then I would easily list it as "great", it is VERY much worth the status in terms of raw damage but it is too easy to have something go wrong and have to sit and watch as you die and nothing anyone or anything can do about it.