Most dependant profession ?

monk .

Wrong :P

We don't rely on other professions, we just use them to maximize our effectiveness.

I'd say Necro, just because I've never seen even a half decent necro build that didn't use other professions as major skills.
Edit: As I read through all of these comments I'm realizing that everyone's saying things like 'not being able to outheal damage'

Who has the healing prayers? Protection prayers? None of that indirect protection crap.

[skill]Divine Spirit[/skill] is ftw, who cares about your crappy glyph. [skill]Shield Of Deflection[/skill] try to hit me, it'll be funny. [skill]Word Of Healing[/skill] Ouch, that almost hurt. [skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] thanks, I needed that energy boost. [skill]Reversal Of Fortune[/skill] additional monk phrase.

Come onnnn

Warrior.

There are two classes in the game - Warriors, and people that make Warriors kill faster.

The Warrior is dependent on the midline to shut down defenses and the monks to keep them up as they push on the enemy. People die to warriors, and hence they either try to shut the warriors down or kill the other team (with warriors) before the other warriors kill them. Thus, it is everyone else's job to make sure the warrior can, and continues to, do his job.

A Warrior without support ends up with snares, 9000% chance to be blocked, blind, and is linebacked while his bull's strike is diverted.

(Sins and Dervishes are merely a subset of Warriors)

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin [skill]Divine Spirit[/skill] is ftw, who cares about your crappy glyph.

That's just being silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin [skill]Shield Of Deflection[/skill] try to hit me, it'll be funny.

o ok, lemme call over somebody on my team who happens to have enchantment removal. BRB!

Great spell, but your comment is ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin [skill]Word Of Healing[/skill] Ouch, that almost hurt.

This is not 2005.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin [skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] thanks, I needed that energy boost.

Boost? A net loss of 3e is a boost? If you say so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin [skill]Reversal Of Fortune[/skill] additional monk phrase.

Great spell.

7 energy back + regen.

Enchantment removal is a one time shot, bud.

Yeah, divine spirit is a once in 60 seconds, but still, I like it more.

PvE for woh

That'd be an awesome build if you could, you know, have three elites on your bar at once.


Let me guess... you play a Warrior. (That's my polite way of calling BS on your idea of how the game works.)

Go ask an elementalist what they think of your theory. ^_^

As a non-interrupt ranger, I promise my job has nothing whatsoever to do with anything the warriors are doing.

In PvE or PvP?

Rhedd: My bar usually consists of mixtures of non elite spells that do almost the same exact thing but not as efficiently.

I'm just trying to show that monks don't exactly need anything.
edit:
without misspelling everything I type... fixed

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin 7 energy back + regen.

So I suppose you subscribe to the theory that LoD is free?

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin Enchantment removal is a one time shot, bud.

Enchantment removal is only a one-time shot if you are playing a silly 4v4 gametype or PvE. When it really counts, there are 8 people on each team (and currently 2 of those 8 are often Mesmers).

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin Yeah, divine spirit is a once in 60 seconds, but still, I like it more.

It's still rather silly. Divine Spirit does have uses, but you shouldn't compare it directly to GoLE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd Let me guess... you play a Warrior.

Avarre plays many things, but most of them are played as a primary Mesmer.

No <_<
1 spell charge=1 enchant gone. Oops look reversal just fell off.
okay fine, but do I get my point off?

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin No <_<

Well, it seemed that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin 1 spell charge=1 enchant gone. Oops look reversal just fell off.

In order to prevent what could turn into a long, drawn out, thread derailing discussion between people looking at a situation from two entirely viewpoints, I'll just ask:

Do you GvG competitively?

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin okay fine, but do I get my point off?

I have no idea?

Let's put it this way.. GOOD monks rely on elementalist or mesmer secondary for energy management. Mo/Me and Mo/E you see a ton, followed VERY closely by Mo/W and Mo/D.

Necros rely on mesmer or ele energy management a lot and Monk or Rit for self healing/party healing. Soul Reaping is still powerful. N/Mo, N/Me, or N/Rt are most popular, followed closely by N/E.

Mesmers don't need a 2ndary, they are overpowered by themselves.

Warriors really don't need a 2ndary, if you know wtf your doing.

Rangers... eh, they have some niche 2ndary stuff that can be very powerful (primarily due to expertise), but their primary skill spread is amazing. R/Mo and R/Me seem to be very popular, as well as good old R/W and R/N.

Paragons use warrior 2ndary a TON. I vote paragons, and expel hexes on a support para is A+.

Assassins are fine with just their primary. A/Me is popular for shadow form BS though.

Dervish, lolz... I think they have been and currently are overpowered in a lot of aspects. They are like Ranger+Warrior+Monk all combined into one. Great self heals, very good AL, massive dmg potential. They are not reliant on anything but themselves. Some mesmer skills fit nicely into their bars though.

Ritualist are perfectly fine without a 2ndary as well, but mesmer emanagment is nice.


So, here comes the irony.

Mesmers are the LEAST reliant of all the classes, but most of the classes are reliant on mesmer 2ndary (if they know what the hell they are doing). Irony is amazing.

I play midline/backline classes.

It sounds like you're playing your ranger wrong. There is almost no good situation where you would not have interrupts on your bar as a Ranger, as that is the main strength of the class.

Maybe you could be playing a trapper, in which case, your job is to screw up enemy warriors and lock down enemy defense so warriors can kill things (you should still have a dshot).
Maybe you're playing a toucher or a damage attack skill ranger, in which case you are doing your job worse than a warrior could have.

Most likely, you're gimmicking in a team full of rangers in PvE though, which is a build designed for newer or less experienced players, in an area where game mechanics are pretty much irrelevant. You might think my idea is BS, but I assure you, you don't have an idea.

Two things. you're right, why should we bicker about things like these? We're mostly adults here.

I try to, I've done top 50, but I've grown rusty over the past 1 1/2 years.. -_-

This isn't an argument on what class relies on other professions, it was what classes rely on their own secondaries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin Two things. you're right, why should we bicker about things like these? We're mostly adults here.

I think Avarre is actually like, 8 or something, but yeah, other than him...

Well I'm talking about guru in general.

Yes, but if your monk is taking smiting, you're weakening your monk. Let someone else in the group be the offense.

I'm assuming this thread was about the need for secondaries, not about solo play versus having a team (be that team humans, heroes, or henchies).

So when I said my first comment, it was about using your secondary profession - none of them need to. In fact most of them are just as good if not better using only skills from their own primary profession. Especially monks - who are usually weakened notably if they use their secondary skills.

I only ever dip into my secondary skills if the mission or quest specifically calls for something in my secondary - like when I am forced to do a mission or quest solo, without even the aid of my heroes or henchies.

An example being the mission at the party of nobles that lets you into Vabbi... I couldn't pull it off, even using smiting (as that is so weak). When I got to the 're-enact the battle of Palawo Jacco' part, it became a never ending click fest - I and he healed at the same rate we took damage... So I had to leave, equip secondary skills, and come back for offense. Usually I would just throw in a hero for that. By having those secondary skills in there, I lost about half of my defensive line - I was very weak, as the monk is just not built for how I had to use it).


Now if we were talking about which class is weakest in solo play, then yeah, probably the monk - even though it is what is used for the '55 build' - that is a very fragile build requiring precise timing on the player's part, and other than that build, any solo monk is essentially a sitting duck.

But this is a thread about secondaries - and I don't think any class needs them. They are handy for some builds, but for almost every mixed build, there is a single class build that is often just as good if not better - at least for general utility. Special circumstances provide the exceptions.

Only time I ever run out of energy is when I over-prot / over-heal, and I know when I'm doing it... when I get 'caught up in the moment' and start click spamming.

Otherwise, I rely on my own monk skills and my energy to be my energy management, and if I'm playing 'up to my skill', it works.

Using one of those signets from the elementalist or mesmer line, at least in PvE, is a crutch for players who get too excited and over-cast.

Actually, they are Glyphs, Stances, and Enchantments. I bet you are one of those players that has all your party members bring self heals, instead of having them do their jobs.

[skill]Glyph Of Lesser Energy[/skill] Is the only true secondary profession skill I use. The sin skills look fun, but they don't help when I'm running low.

LOL

We have been doing all mesmer teams for years now, we was able to do almost anything, with only mesmers in our team: UW, FOW, some DOA areas, Duncan, HM, vanquishing... Come to a mesmer weekly meeting on Saturdays at 9 PM GMT in Deldrimor int 1 and you'll see by yourself.

Yep.

That Glyph is a 1 second cast and a 30 second recharge.

Could have put a monk skill in there instead and just not overcast. If you cast those other two only when you need to cast them, you have plenty of energy for them already. Given that I need condition and hex removal, hit avoidance, damage reversal / blockage, a backup heal (ZB or LoD), and, at least in a PUG, a hard rez... I go for energy management by having a lot of it to start with, trying not to overcast, and keeping at least half of my skills at 5e - more if the build strategy of the moment lets me.


Oh, and I rarely ask anyone to bring self heals. When I Hero/hench only me and my hero monk have any healing. In PUGs, I can't control what the others bring, but I prefer to avoid PUGing with Wa/Mos for a reason...

I mostly play Monks, and Divine Favor has no synergy with a secondary profession. I'd say they're at the bottom of the list.

I guess I'd have to say that Rangers have an easier time with finding secondary skills.

GoLE is good for LoD monks in the Deep spamming Heal Party for the tanks running into the rooms to gather aggro to the doors...in that case it's good in any organized team where the tank runs in to gather aggro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady Yep. That Glyph is a 1 second cast and a 30 second recharge.

And yet it's still considered excellent energy management by many high-end players who play various professions, including Monk. Imagine that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady Could have put a monk skill in there instead and just not overcast. If you cast those other two only when you need to cast them, you have plenty of energy for them already. Given that I need condition and hex removal, hit avoidance, damage reversal / blockage, a backup heal (ZB or LoD), and, at least in a PUG, a hard rez... I go for energy management by having a lot of it to start with, trying not to overcast, and keeping at least half of my skills at 5e - more if the build strategy of the moment lets me.

Or, you could, like, have another Monk along for the ride and try some build synergy. That works too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady Oh, and I rarely ask anyone to bring self heals. When I Hero/hench only me and my hero monk have any healing. In PUGs, I can't control what the others bring, but I prefer to avoid PUGing with Wa/Mos for a reason...

No comment.

Mesmer definitely.

I not a mesmer hater i love mesmer skills ... everytime i working in powerfull mesmer builds... but i cant belive in you... pure mesmers cant have healing and we kown 1 boss in hard core areas can kill a team with 1 strike without prot... but if we can get 7 heros, trust me i ever save a place to a mesmer... and not for a stupid interupt mesmers... for a real damage mesmer...

but i read Thread again and understant the OP idea... in a 8 ppl team with mix classes the most depend from secondary is... monk...

All mesmer teams use secondary professions like monk and ritualist to heal. Those teams are dependant on their secondary.

I'd have to go with mesmer.

Hrmm.

The only time I ever use a secondary profession on my PvE monk is if I'm capping an elite for the title track. I've never had any need of a secondary beyond that, including in end-game areas.

My brain and common sense are my e-management. Knowing when to use which skill & who to use it on is far superior to any help a secondary profession might offer.

No I do not run team builds that require my Heroes to bring self-heals.


Faer, in your example you're using a glyph with 30 sec recharge to cast another spell that also has a 30 sec recharge, so for half a minute 2 slots on your skill bar are useless. 2 disabled and useless skill slots for 30 seconds all to possibly (50% chance) block attacks for a whole 7 seconds. Granted, the spell has a party-wide effect and there are places where that can be beneficial, but it's a waste of a skill slot in PvE to use the glyph. In the time it takes that glyph to recharge and be useful again (or for Aegis to recharge and be useful again) you could have healed or prevented a few thousand points of damage with more efficient skills.

GoLE affects 2 spells. Used on Aegis + PS, you've saved 20 energy, and so have more energy to use on heals/small prots. Aegis is also energy management in itself since less damage taken = less energy needed to negate it. You don't need a bar full of low recharge spells to heal effectively.

LoD monks spamming heal party with GoLE?
why not just spam LoD??

Necro. Lot of 10-15e skills and poor e-management outside of SR.

This is only in the instance that you get the 50% chance to block for Aegis, for a total of 10 seconds (assuming prot at 13). Sure, enchantments are useful, but they shouldn't be the basis of your build, the be-all-end-all decision maker of what else you put on your skill bar, or your last resort. While you can extend the duration of of the enchantment, your enemy can also remove it. Oops.. I guess I shouldn't use Faer's own arguements against his example.


You're right, Symeon, you don't need a bar full of low recharge spells to heal effectively, but a lot of the spells under the Healing attribute aren't enchantments and can't be stripped (thus are not potentially wasted energy or wasted space on the skill bar).

Maybe it's just me and maybe I'm missing something HUGE in the PvE game where it makes absolute perfect sense to use those 3 skills together on a regular basis, but try as I might I can't think of anything from over the past 2+ years of playing this game to indicate that.

Note that Aegis allows you to "block attacks". This only includes direct weapon attacks and attack skills specifically, and then only for party members within earshot. It doesn't block spells or non-attack skills/shouts/etc. If it does it's a bug or the spell needs rewording. Given that, why would I ever bother to tote around a glyph just to make a mostly unneeded spell more energy efficient?

Personally I don't think the trade off is worth it. I'd rather have 3 skills/spells on my bar that are more dependable, predictably useful, and both time & energy efficient.

Did you just say that? Let me rephrase: you did not just say that.

Protection magic is more efficient in dealing with damage than healing is. A typical monk bar (one that isn't terrible) will have RoF, small prot (guardian/soa), large prot (ps/sb), and other utility enchantments such as veil/aegis/seed/stability depending on the area the build is run in.

Direct healing skills are less effective because they are largely one-dimensional. You target, you heal. Most protection skills however scale in value with how they are used- a rof can stop 140 damage for 5 energy when timed well, a spirit bond on a spike can give immense return healing.

Reducing damage is always better than healing it because of the comparative efficiency of skills - and that a few single skills (LoD) can be used to mop up the damage that gets through prot. Prot enchantments are the basis of monk builds, with conditional heals for maximized efficiency to clear up the rest (kiss on protted targets, lod, etc).

There are some monks (Tommy, for example) that ran Aegis without glyph under the reasoning that the amount of damage that could be prevented was management in itself. However, a great number of monks use glyph simply because it gives them more energy to play with under pressure.

Monks. But only for Hard rez.

EDIT: And Ele for Glyph of Lesser energy. But it's not neede though.

In PvP? Warriors and Monks.

In PvE, you can go without an secondary pretty easily with any profession.

Have you ever monked?

Aegis = Unneeded? You do understand, that it's basically party wide 50% block rate so, that....you have to heal drastically less?

Your monk bar is probably Word of Healing, Orison, Healing Breeze, Heal Other Insert Crap Spell Here

On topic: Monks: Ranger for Nat Stride, Warrior for Shield Bash/D-stance, Mesmer for channeling, Ele for Glyph, and other more circumstantial skills.

My stance as well.

And like one of the others said, Aegis itself is energy management for what it blocks for the duration it does so. I also use Guardian to cover for it. I open with Aegis, and then apply Guardian, along with other Prots, to cover the recharge on a selective basis to those allies facing appropriate pressure. I reserve Zealous Benediction for crisis management - when my Prots have been miscast and someone is taking more than they should, or when someone is positioning wrong and taking more pressure than they should (like Olias last night - who kept going into melee - I think I had accidentally given him a touch attack when redoing all my hero builds the other day).

As for my enchants being stripped, there's a whole other way to look at that as well. If they're spending time and energy stripping my enchantments, that's time and energy they're not spending applying pressure to my team.

I rarely have energy problems. So I know what I'm doing works.

Keeping all 8 of my skills in primary profession has worked for me very well over the time I've played GW. It wasn't the attitude I started with, it was something I adopted as I learned the game more and started noticing what was working and what was failing in my efforts to get through. And for me, mixing it up led to less effective results more often than not. I reserve it for the exception, not the rule.

Yes it does, and is what I do, especially when bringing my Heroes where I can ensure it. And is yet another reason to go pure monk.

Y'all are off-topic.