What makes them (you) do it?

Although this will most likely and unfortunately result in a flamefest and get this thread closed, I have to ask the question. What is it that makes some people go into GW, or any game for that matter and start griefing, harassing, scamming or otherwise deliberately go out of their way to make other peoples' gaming experience a horrible one?

As I said I'm not asking this to start a flamefest, but out of genuine curiosity. I'm almost 40 and I have children that are of an age to play this and other online games. I've done my best to teach them to be polite, helpful, and enjoy the games they play and to try and not let the bad things others do ruin their own fun. Having a better idea of what makes some people do things I personally could never see myself doing and certainly would never allow my kids to do and get away with might help me better prepare them for the things they might face out here in the big, bad internet.

I don't know if it was because I was raised in a different era so to speak, or raised with better manners in general, or what, but I just don't quite get what makes these people tick and really would like to on something more than a superficial level. I'd hazard a guess and say I'm not the only person curious about this.

What prompted me to ask this after pondering it for a while is that there seems to be something of a trend of people not only perpetrating this sort of behavior, but coming into this and other forums and actively bragging about it like it is something to be proud of.

If possible, I'd like for there to be some inputs from both sides of the fence. I don't need or particularly want to know what was done. We've all either witnessed, read about or done the things I'm asking about. What I want to know is WHY it's being done in the first place and how it effected the victims.

So if you folks are up for it.. do try and keep things on a civil level so that everyone on both sides of the fence can voice their thoughts without becoming targets. This might get closed or moved of course, but maybe, just maybe, it might help people garner a little bit of understanding of folks who have a wholly different idea of what fun is.

I once made a sin running build in RA. Longest I lasted was 40 mins untill they all left. I was just bored, and at the time was just generally annoyed. I only did it a few times. Hmm but I did become friends with one of the 'victims' lol. weird...

Heh i'll probally get flamed for this but who cares

Scamming = greed
Harrassing = bad character
Griefing = done between the times the players have fun playing the game

They wouldn't do this if they didn't like the game. Minus Zinger. They play it, then they take a break and harrass/whine.

Because they like to get their self esteem up and make themselves feel good. They think if they insult people they will feel better about themselves. It makes people feel powerful to call others "An 8 year old child" or whatever they want. People just want to be cool, it's kinda like people talking in caps lock. "Caps lock is cruise control for cool" People love to use it because they feel it makes them powerful. Really it's a bunch of bs and people just need to grow up.

Some people actually do not believe that they are griefers, RA Leavers for example.

Leechers in AB grief people for their own benefit of title and/or gold.

Tanking Eles in AB might sometimes be considered grievers, but they are actually playing a fairly tactful way to win.

For some, I would think that it is an attention issue. People who NEED attention just want it, good or bad. It doesn't matter if people are calling them great, or if they are calling them an f'ing noob. It is attention.

For some, I even fall into this occasionally, it is a good way to vent a little bit of steam. I know this is wrong, and I try to refrain from doing it, but it does help. If I join 10 games in a row, and all of them are retarded, won't listen, won't attack the same target, and frustrate me, then the best way I find to deal with the frustration is to pass it off to other people. Keep getting beat because I have teams of wammos in RA? Screw it, I'll run a 55 monk once or twice just to annoy them. Then afterwards, I will go back to normal playing. Wrong of me, but it does help.

people scam because they dontk now a faster way to make money or they cant get the item they really want

One time me and a guildie ran suicide necro builds in TA because we were on the bored side. In the end we made friends with a couple of the people we got paired up with. And we haven't done anything like that since then (which was around 7 months ago).

I think sometimes people do stuff like that because they're bored or they don't feel good (not physically, I mean emotionally mostly). Then there are those who just generally take pleasure out of other peoples' misery.

Well having played with people of all walks of life (if you can call some of them that), they do certain things due to:

1. Mother and father aren't around to spend time with them (depends on age)
2. Pure boredom
3. Lack of self esteem
4. For the thrill of it. Yea people are into it as weird as it sounds. This is the internet and nobody can tell who your are or where you live. Just being a jerk can be entertaining to some people.
5. Bipolar disorder
6. Behavior modifying drugs
7. Being genetically defective
8. All of the above

It's all really #4. Everything else is just wild speculation on the victims part to justify it happening to them, villainize the griefer even moreso, and make themselves feel better about being griefed.

Adding on to that one: because they crave attention (which could be caused by lack of parental attention). Good or bad, it's attention to them.

When I played, I used to leave RA frequently based on how bad my team was. I wasn't doing it to intentionally grief, just I didn't want to play with people who suck.

In a way, by sucking/running bad builds in a random arena, you're griefing me.

Oops! Forgot that one. Thx!

I think they do it for fun or just because they're spiteful. I say you have to crush them and humiliate them if you can infront of the audience they are trying to mess with, chances are the audience will go with you. If not whisper a few friends who are'nt guilded to say Yeah!!! in agreeance. Oh yeah make sure to set do not disturb because once you get them booed out of where ever there's going to be a pm coming your way most likely.

People have been trying to look for answers to question why is there evil in the world before. I guess there are multiple reasons, but I think the biggest (along with vulnerable personality) is learning by social example. When someone is being unfair when dealing with you, the attitude tends to spread. We already have many examples in world, so called vengeful cycles. It depends on system (laws & enforcement) how much abuse there will be. Any imaginable loophole will be abused by malicious people.

I can't say for sure, but perhaps decadence in strong faith has caused much of what we experience today. When the whole world is viewed as "up to you" individuality where subject himself chooses which ideologies and moral codes are what he likes, not many choose path of empathy. It's no wonder why there's so much dirt when success is associated with ruthless attitude time and time again.

Get a rise out of people and for self amusement. Sure we all get pissed off when people are assholes to us such as like you mentioned scamming and things like running in RA forever or talking shit. They are having a good time when we bitch and moan so they arent going to stop. Just something that people do, not gonna stop happening tough.

because guild wars has no monthly fee and thus and attracts the shittiest playerbase including but not limited to those who don't make enough monthly income to pay for WoW and little kids who's parents won't pay a monthly fee.

Everyone keeps saying that, jinzo, but I never actually meet little kids. Mostly 16+.

I mean you never know about someone spamming local chat...

Honestly, I do not know. I have never been able to comprehend it.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the root of it is a failure to fully appreciate that there are real people on the other end of the network cable. I think perhaps it's too easy for some people to forget that what they do in-game can affect a real live person with real feelings and worthy of being treated with real human decency, and to behave as if they hurt no one but computer-generated sprites.

At least, that's what I'd like to believe, as the alternative is to accept that a large portion of the population turns into vicious little sociopaths when you give them the anonymity of the internet...

That's a pretty good point. I never really think about that at times (not that I act like a complete a-hole to everyone I meet online) but sometimes when I do things (like the suiciding necro thing I said I did earlier) I don't think that maybe I could be negatively impacting someone who had a rough day or something. And especially with people in my age group (I'm 15) we don't think about how our actions affect others.

Try it. It's funny as hell.

Penny Arcade summed it up the best

I appreciate all the responses so far. So far we've got lots from "my" side, so to speak. I agree with most everything you've all said to this point. Lots of reasons from our point of view. I'd love to see what those other folks have to say for themselves though. Sometimes I really do wonder if it ever enters into the minds of some that the ones they do wrong to are actual real people, with feelings, wants or needs of their own.

As has been said, most of us slip a little from time to time out of boredom or frustration.. doesn't make it right, but we are all only human afterall.

But for the ones that seriously make it a point to do those things on a regular basis... I have to ask not only why they do it.. in their own words. Also I would ask them to take a minute and put the shoe on the other foot and look at it from the victim's standpoint and think about how they'd feel if they were the ones getting whatever treatment is is they so joyously dish out.

I know there are times when I'd love to go off or say something mean or so something selfishly stupid, just to get out some frustration, but I at least always take a moment to put myself in the other person's place. I find 99% of the time or more that it's just plain wrong and so don't do anything.

In the 2 1/2 years I've played this game, I've never once deliberately messed a group up or harassed another player. Even with friends it's been only an occasional teasing about something we both know they did that was stupid. I've only reported 2-3 people for language or harassing others in that time, and always after I personally asked them to stop first and was ignored or harassed in turn. It's not that I'm bothered by language, or even that my kids play and I'm afraid for their sensitive little ears. Hell, I was in the military for over 14 years.. My kids have heard things that would make sailors blush. It's the deliberate mistreatment of others that bothers me.

It's certainly not limited to GW. I don't play WoW, but a coworker is one of those diehards. He was showing me a video at work tonight that someone had made of a high powered/level warrior that was purposely going around trying to mess with anyone he could. Now granted, if people play on one of the PVP servers, they take what they get, but this dude was zoning into an area where players were attempting to get an instance party together and just randomly attacking them all until they finally ganged up and killed him. I stood there watching this and had to ask myself, "Where is the fun in that?" It literally took 5-6 people to stop this guy. No great fun for them, and although he apparently was enjoying what he was doing, it reminded me of what a lvl 20 character would do if he jumped into the low level arena in AC. Kinda pointless except to disrupt other people.

Guess I'm just better suited to the GW way of things. I like my PVP organized..lol I think it'd piss me off to no end if I were in town trying to form a party and some random butt nugget decided it was time for 1 vs all showdown. That sort of thing reminds me too much of the random and senseless violence we hear about in the news every day. At least in this game its more like a sporting event, which in my opinion is how it should be.

Without getting into a deep psychology discussion about this. Humans in general are inherently evil. Hurting someone is actually fun to some people. That's one of the reasons why we have what we call criminals. If you put a bunch of oh 5 year olds in a room by themselves it's been proven that one will eventually bully up the others, cause them distress and pain. It's not from lack of teaching them manners etc. It's just an inherent nature. If you wanted to test this truth just imagine for ONE day yes just ONE day that all the prisons around the world were opened and there was NO LAW or POLICE or ARMIES to call for help. Just ONE day of this world without LAW and you'll see how humans are inherently evil.

On the internet there is a high level of anonymity which then has the effect of causing some people to be anomolous. When there is no fear of pain or repurcusions this is the act you see online most often. Internet bullying.

You see this even here all the time. Name calling, bullying, threats lol you name it you'll see it. It's really now just a NORMAL act for those with no restraints to act this way. It can't be governed or policed really. Anet can't toss everyone off the game that insults someone, but, they could increase the size of the /ignore list I think. Mods on forums have a better grasp on it, but, even some mods can go overboard with that power and end up being like the perpatrator that they punished. Loads of them over at that other GW site.

In general you can't expect everyone to act like you or think like you or live like you or do what you do. Griefing and harrassment and annoying people as long as the game is free and even the pay to play ones have their crowd, but, the free ones you are going to see it more often than not because most are going to flock to free play and free sites that enjoy griefing and harassing and being generally annoying.

Even the perfect little child in public can be one of the worst fiends online given the anonymity and not getting caught by precious mom and dad.

Yea, I have to agree with those whom have stated that due to the high level of anonymity that someone can in turn become the worlds biggest d-bag, because they don't consider the fact that there are other people on the other side of the wire with feelings and emotions.

I've mentioned this in a few other threads here and there, but I've ran online interactive sites -namely pertaining to white wolf roleplaying as well as D&D (yea, I'm THAT much of a nerd), and some of the sweetest people I have ever met turn into the biggest a-holes when they are confronted with either a - rules lawyering b - metagaming c - min/maxing (And a bunch of other terms that are technically used just for roleplaying) or... if they don't like someone they will grief them in all ways possible. Harassing them in game and out of game, all the way to trying to conspire to get characters killed.

When I sat down and spoke to one of the players about this and why they were doing it, they weren't really actually aware that it mattered.. That someone could take offense to it, because after all it's just "Words on a screen" but once I explained to them that while it might just be words on a screen, people do have feelings.. They apologized and actually became one of my star members on the site (go me)

Of course there's the other level of it, where someone is so passive aggressive IRL, that it just turns into agressive online, because they need to let go of that anger and frustration somewhere, and unfortunately people on the net are hapless victims most of the time.

I wanted to snip here for a moment for an off-GW topic, but very much onto topic of this thread.

When I was working as a moderator (Admin sort) for an online chat prior to starting up one of my own - the owner was... How do I put this nicely... She had bi-polar I swear to goodness... She would harass, berate, and bastardize anyone who looked at her crosseyed some days... And if you said one not nice thing about her character in game to someone privately (She'd read PM's) you'd get banned. Or in my case, you're guilty by association and get talked to like a dog. Then the next day she'd apologize and say she never meant anything like that.

High strung emotional people can be sometimes a blessing (if they're overly nice emotional types) or.. can be a definite bad thing if they're the type who just snap and lash out on anyone who has a pulse, which could be another reason why people do it on online communities.

Sorry I rambled and more than likely put people to sleep.

There's a mesmer in my guild who is 12. He's brilliant, one of the best mesmers I know. Very funny too. Not all little kids are dickheads, some people really learn how to respect and play with other people through online games.

Yes there really is no age limit to being evil or chaotic as it's inherent in everyone at any time. It's just most of us have been socialized (brainwashed) to be such a way in public, but, that's usually where it ends. Once behind closed doors and by yourself I bet most all of you sleep with your hands under the covers.

I believe you hit the nail on the head. I've witnessed similar behavior in other online venues, and quite often the excuse is something along the lines of "you're not real to me, so I can do whatever I want and not care". It's a way of distancing yourself and dehumanizing everyone else, so you can't be bothered or affected by your or anyone else's actions. If everyone else isn't real, you're not really being a...whatever epithet floats your boat.

But those are little kids.

Evil people don't think of themselves as evil. Al Capone, Hitler, etc. all thought there was nothing wrong with what they were doing.

Similarly, it stands to reason that griefers don't really perceive what they are doing is griefing, even though it appears that way to others.

For example, I remember reading a complaint by a poster on these boards, about how he kept unfairly being given the dishonor debuff by teammates, and how the entire system was therefore a joke. But time and time again I've seen that same poster insult others on the forums; in fact his post on the monk forums bragging about making a suicide build just got locked. He is basically oblivious to the fact that he is an asshat, and the same is true for most of these people.

reason numero uno: They're bored.
reason numero nexto: They're jerks and think it's funny
reason numero lasto: They have daddy issues, hate the world, and everyone in it <- Although it may sound sarcastic, it's not

First answer points to one of the roots of the problem: carelessness. Be it because you're young, badly educated, selfish or simply retarted, it's often the "I don't care what people think/feel" which brings that sort of behavior.

And of course, there's the (relatively rare) evil and mean people that want to take pleasure out of this. Some do it by revenge (emotional), some do it because they're mentally pervert.

Internet brings an apparent form of anonimity that makes people believe that they can behave badly without any consequences. There are ALWAYS consequences, always. Except some people don't see them directly, and don't mind. Most things cannot be rendered "a-semantic" so as to expediate moral problems, even a game you are paying for. Look at the issue of bad language, or using 3rd party programs against working for titles (apart from the EULA).

I didn't see that one. I totatlly disagree. But still admit it's a matter of perspective, since we can only really understand what is in our head

Internet still exists because it's benefit to humans overcomes its drawbacks. It's like spam, email communications are made of 2/3rd of spam, but people do not see it like this since it's filtered.

This thread is about personal beliefs and common behaviors. There's no way we can continue the discussion without delving deeper into psychology, philosophy and religion.

Have a nice day!

Those people are mentally handicapped, thats all. I never actually curse at them or anything cause its not their fault. It's bad to laugh or be angry at retards.

I do it for fun and laughs when I get bored. Sometimes I have 10 people against me and they just keep on going it's really funny. If I could offend people in the game without getting banned..oh I'd do it often!

I just really do not like you guys that's about it and it also depends on my mood, for the most part I'm a nice guy. For the most part I only go on Guild Wars to do that after I read threads here with people who are kissy kissy with Guild Wars and think it's a great game now.

The same thing that makes people make fun of others in Real life. ither bad childhood or bad parents, mostly bad parents, being harrased in real life ither at school or at work. if someone made fun of you for years and years how would you handle it?

And have your kids come home from school saying they hate it and dont want to go back because of someone picking on them? you would be suprised what goes on in todays schools and how mean kids are to eachother.
I mean straight up evil when I was in the 5th grade someone used to make fun of a friend of mine saying very harsh things about his mom. She died when he was 4 or 5 and the other guy would make fun of it because his mom was dead, this went on for years untill my friend moved away. How and what are you to do in this situation, he told teachers, parents, and other friends but the other kid would not stop.

The best reason is 9/10 parents are just bad parents who do not talk with their children show little interest in them etc.... you have to think about todays sociaty and how many people should not have children (WHITE TRASH)-(DRUGGIES)-(ALCOHOLICS) they are everywere and these are the people we do not want to have kids but they do and they have many.
Just go to a walmart and look at the people with 5 kids who are running around screaming nonstop.

I dont think it is fun for them they just want everyone to be as angry as them.

This is one of the people im talking about. ither he was bullied in school or made fun of for years or has a bad relationship with his parents.
or has the mental disorder Bipolor or depression. which seems to be getting more common these days.

This. And:

Defiantly this.

I can honestly say I have never been that bored .. in game or in life.

Same reason why shadenfreude exists.

Hmmm, parenting. What an interesting concept.

So what you're proposing here, is that parents spend time with children, teach them, and try to instill social and moral values into them?

Well, it's a novel approach, and perhaps a few unsual parents will actually give it a try.

Meanwhile, the rest will use boob tube to educate their kids.

Heh, it's not getting more common. It's just that more people have access to internet.

A lot of people here have been saying pretty much the same thing, with varying degrees of simplicity or complexity, because we all know the answer.

Many people are naturally evil.

Many people are naturally cowards.

Any situation that allows a person to do evil without risking injury is bound to result in a drastic increase in evil acts.

Let's not candy-coat it. It's Evil.

And only boring people can be bored. <== Truism because it's true.