Guild Wars and Respecs - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

08 Nov 2007 at 07:04 - 1

So I've started playing Hellgate: London lately. The dev team their has decided to go with a Diablo 2-style skill system, in which skill choices are set in stone forever, you can never change them. The community over there is hotly divided on whether this is a good or bad thing. Personally, I think the ability to change builds on the fly is the single best thing about Guild Wars, and singlehandedly makes it one of the best RPGs on the market. However..., well, here's a few quotes from those forums:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChroystmoBot

On Guildwars: Possibly the worst game anyone could ever use for an example. Warrior Monk? You win! Anything else? Prepare to never beat the game without a WM's help. Who cares if you can infinitely respec if your entire class is either useless or immortal anyways?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpoonDemon

GUILD WARS is not ****ing HG:L. Guild Wars has ENTIRELY different gameplay, an ENTIRELY different skill setup, an ENTIRELY different focus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrankcallofCthulhu

Sure. It's still a skill-based RPG. In fact, during the first month or two of Guild Wars, respeccing had a significant cost to it, 250xp or so per attribute point you wanted to change. They did away with that because people didn't like it. Could there perhaps be a parallel there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eu_Larskrimi

So to summarize, not having the option to respec ensures:

- Those 'hardcore' enough will rightfully end up with the best build
- WAY Better replayability of the game
- Feeling of reward to end up in late/endgame with a well spec'd character

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmony

It might have been brought up but that doesn't make it true (the fact that it ruins gameplay) for the majority. For some empirical evidence: 2 million Guild Wars subscribers and 9 million WoW subscribers and... you get the idea. Well, all those guys are happy with a respec-based game. They would be the vast majority of MMO players in the Western world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonster

Respecs actually killed GW for me, because I didn't feel like I was even playing a character. Every time I go to a city I try something different. I got bored. Planet side also allowed respecs and that killed it for me. WoW allowed respecs and that killed it for me.

Discuss. Easy respeccing the best thing to ever happen to the game or a terrible idea?

Gigashadow

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Bellevue, WA

W/

08 Nov 2007 at 07:11 - 2

Holy crap, ChroystmoBot has stumbled on the ultimate GvG meta; 8 wammos. What an unstoppable combination. I mean, they can do damage with swords and axes... AND heal! All 8 of them. I mean, how can anyone shut down 8 healers and 8 damage dealers at the same time?

Toutatis

Walking Wiki

Join Date: Nov 2006

Isle of Medication

Visitors from Aranna [VFA]

Me/E

08 Nov 2007 at 07:13 - 3

I really like the concept of respeccing in GW. The same tactics can't work in every part of the game, so being able to respec lets us meet the different challenges head on and not be disadvantaged by being restricted to one build strategy. It also gives us more freedom to experiment with our characters strengths to find out which aspects of each profession that we like the most.

So overall, I think that the ability to respec is a good thing in this game.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

08 Nov 2007 at 07:19 - 4

Removal of att refund points, and making respecs limitless, was one of the best changes this game has seen.

Mist Walker Skarloc

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

Gods Of The Hot [GotH]

P/W

08 Nov 2007 at 07:23 - 5

Our respect system is definately good. If a noob in HG:L starts to spec incorrectly and doesn't know until too late, (s)he either deletes his/her character and starts again with the right spec, or remains a noob. In GW, (s)he just changes and maybe gets a couple of different runes.

By 'right spec', I mean not stuff like R/Mo with Beast Mastery, Marksmahip, Smiting and Protection for the pet, but no Expertise.

The WoW respec system kinda sucks. Gotta pay money for it, the amount increases every time you do so.

And yeah, Warrior Monks are immortal, we need more players like ChroystmoBot;304548 in our community.

EDIT: Made it seem like our respeccing sucks, bad wording.

Marty Silverblade

Administrator

Join Date: Jun 2006

08 Nov 2007 at 07:29 - 6

Being able to change anything about our build at will is a really good idea, the refund point system was kinda crap.

pamelf

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Australia

Lost Templars [LoTe]

Me/Mo

08 Nov 2007 at 07:37 - 7

I hated not respeccing in Diablo II when i played it. When you first start a game you hardly know what your play style is going to be all the way through. GW give you the ability to design your own, unique style of play, without having to replay the same game over again JUST to get a different build, only to get the one you wanted and think to yourself "why the hell didn't I go with this one to begin with. That's a few days of my life i'll never get back."

wetsparks

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

08 Nov 2007 at 07:51 - 8

I like the system in Titan Quest, in the expansion they made it so that if you screwed up your specs you just pay to have it changed. It costs a little bit of money but money is so easy to come by that it doesn't really matter. In a game like Guild Wars where they intentionally make areas different from one another you need to be able to respec on the fly in a quick, painless way.

Gattocheese

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2007

New Mexico

GWEN

08 Nov 2007 at 08:00 - 9

I think they both play to their own level. Respecs in Guild Wars is needed, as in Hellgate its not. I can understand the frustration on picking a skill that really sucks and not being able to take it back, but GW and HL are two seperate animals. Guild Wars you play your skill bar, constantly clicking skills over and over to beat your foe, hardly using just non-skill melee fighting. Hellgate, like its base, uses mainly the non-skill melee fighting and skills as maybe a support. This also comes down to having different mods on weapons. Guild Wars is limited on damage and mods you can have on your melee weapons, Hell Gates weapons continue to grow in level as your character continue to grow, also the mods are very vast.

I think a form or respec in skills in HL should not be ruled out. I believe maybe you should be able to try out the last point you earned in gaining a level to see which skill suits better and then when you reach your next level that last skill point becomes permanent.

But is this a general discussion? Your asking peoples opinion on a different game and game type.

arcady

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

San Francisco native

Mo/P

08 Nov 2007 at 08:03 - 10

I wanto to know what ChroystmoBot is shooting up, cause that stuff's got to be too strong to be street legal.

Wa/Mo's needed? Good lord, having even one Wa/Mo in a group is often a recipe for a wipe, not at all needed, let alone desired.

As for the preference of no respec's, I can understand it. For a roleplay focused player, its almost required that a game be that way. But video games just aren't the right place for roleplay.

BlueNovember

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

WTS GW2 items for Zkey

Mo/

08 Nov 2007 at 08:04 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Removal of att refund points, and making respecs limitless, was one of the best changes this game has seen.

^^. Can't really add to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmony, from some other forum

It might have been brought up but that doesn't make it true (the fact that it ruins gameplay) for the majority. For some empirical evidence: 2 million Guild Wars subscribers and 9 million WoW subscribers and... you get the idea. Well, all those guys are happy with a respec-based game. They would be the vast majority of MMO players in the Western world.

...
The naivity of some people. Yeah, more people play WoW because it has no respec system. Yup. :\

The level 20 cap, "8-skills only", and infinite re-spec define guild-wars as a game. These alone put it leagues above most rpgs in terms of skill vs time. Admitedly, the new titles system means many people just play one character, which goes against the concept, but hey, that's another thread.

lishi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

08 Nov 2007 at 08:04 - 12

You know what really suck?

i remember my Diablo 2 sorceress with the ice comet and the thing who lower enemy ice resistence.

It was pretty much build around that thing.

They one day blizzard chosed to nerf the skill.

Gw approach -> who care time to change build
Diablo approach -> doh!

Iuris

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Crazy ducks from the Forest

W/

08 Nov 2007 at 08:15 - 13

As a former Hellgate:London fanatic, I'd say that Flagship studios have made just about every wrong "game philosophy" decision they could. Including respecs.

A game with no respecs simply means that if you want to play a character differently, you have to start all over again. Pass all the tutorials, all the storyline quests, all the boring levelling,... This does not enhance replayability. It FORCES replaying that is not fun.

GW got the philosophy right. Make the character adaptable and then keep all areas interesting by forcing the player to adapt insted of level up and defeat the opposition with brute force. It also lets you focus on your character, instead of making you go for a thousand other characters to be able to do everything in the game...

Mooynerami

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Dec 2005

New Zealand

Random Benevolence Society [HELP]

Mo/

08 Nov 2007 at 08:20 - 14

@ BlueNovember : I think Harmony is referring to WoW and GW in union, not comparing as they both have repec systems

Winstar

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

London

08 Nov 2007 at 08:22 - 15

Its been a long time I've played something non GW...The very idea of not allowing respecs as in GW seems crazy. I really don't seem the point at all of forcing that. This is just another element of the GW game design that I overlooked and underappreciated.

leprekan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posers and Wannabes [nubs]

W/E

08 Nov 2007 at 08:26 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Removal of att refund points, and making respecs limitless, was one of the best changes this game has seen.

I remember going and soloing the sand drakes to generate refund points

I do miss not being able to move att points in a zone though .. was part of the core 55 build.

wetsparks

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

08 Nov 2007 at 08:33 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

As a former Hellgate:London fanatic, I'd say that Flagship studios have made just about every wrong "game philosophy" decision they could. Including respecs.

A game with no respecs simply means that if you want to play a character differently, you have to start all over again. Pass all the tutorials, all the storyline quests, all the boring levelling,... This does not enhance replayability. It FORCES replaying that is not fun.

GW got the philosophy right. Make the character adaptable and then keep all areas interesting by forcing the player to adapt insted of level up and defeat the opposition with brute force. It also lets you focus on your character, instead of making you go for a thousand other characters to be able to do everything in the game...

The only thing I can say to disagree with that is that in Guild Wars, every person is virtually the same as the next. If they don't have a skill that is helpful, they have a similar one. Everyones weapons do close to the same amount of damage, except for maybe one person having a +30 mod and another an armor +7. but they all have the same amount of health, magic, armor etc and can easily get whatever skills as the next person. Not being able to respec or limited respeccing in other games make sure that all characters are unique, at least until the internet is flooded with the "perfect" skill setup for each class.

lishi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

08 Nov 2007 at 08:45 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

The only thing I can say to disagree with that is that in Guild Wars, every person is virtually the same as the next. If they don't have a skill that is helpful, they have a similar one. Everyones weapons do close to the same amount of damage, except for maybe one person having a +30 mod and another an armor +7. but they all have the same amount of health, magic, armor etc and can easily get whatever skills as the next person. Not being able to respec or limited respeccing in other games make sure that all characters are unique, at least until the internet is flooded with the "perfect" skill setup for each class.

that might be true, but a guildwars without respec will make me uninstall the game in a hour.

Winstar

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

London

08 Nov 2007 at 09:12 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

The only thing I can say to disagree with that is that in Guild Wars, every person is virtually the same as the next. If they don't have a skill that is helpful, they have a similar one. Everyones weapons do close to the same amount of damage, except for maybe one person having a +30 mod and another an armor +7. but they all have the same amount of health, magic, armor etc and can easily get whatever skills as the next person. Not being able to respec or limited respeccing in other games make sure that all characters are unique, at least until the internet is flooded with the "perfect" skill setup for each class.

This idea of uniqueness is misleading. Being pigeonholed doesn't make you unique it means you have no options. GW characters are as unique as you decide to make them. You can setup a bar from a number of classes and skills and play them as you like. How would be forced down a certain path make the game better than giving people to option to do what they wanted with the character?

Of course there is another fundamental flaw here in the idea that every person is the same. Guildwars has different classes that each play very differently at about every stage of the game.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

08 Nov 2007 at 09:17 - 20

I think it's a great part of the game. Having played diablo 2, it was annoying to have to restart a char everytime i wanted a new build. Although you could be "rushed" through in no time, guildwars is a much bigger game and redoing chars so often would be hell. Not to mention you can't create new free accounts at will like on diablo 2, to store all these chars.

wetsparks

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

08 Nov 2007 at 09:23 - 21

You misread my post a bit there. I didn't say that a warrior could or would be the same as a monk, but I did try to imply that a warrior is the same as the next warrior and a monk is the same as the next monk. All monks have the same skills, similar weapons, same armor. I can go to my friends house, log into his account and play his warrior and do just as well with it as I would my warrior. I also never said better, the games are just different. I have Hellgate: London, and I have probably already screwed up my skill points on two characters. But those characters will be different, unique, than someone elses character who is playing the game.

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

08 Nov 2007 at 09:34 - 22

If there were no respecing in Guild Wars, everyone would either be using the exact same specs or bashing each other for not using the 'best' specs or bitching about how the specs aren't all balanced.

Having respecs at a cost is just done as a time sink. I'd never be surprised if a pay to play rpg used a none respec system or one that cost gold. It's how they make more money by ensuring that it will take you longer to try different builds.

CHunterX

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Washington

W/E

08 Nov 2007 at 09:34 - 23

I was planning on buying HG:L, but now that I've learned that skill choices are set in stone, I won't bother. Thanks OP!

Winstar

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

London

08 Nov 2007 at 09:35 - 24

I don't think i misread

That 2 different monks can have access to the large pool of skills doesn't mean that the are the same or not unique. The difference comes in how you choose to make you character, what bars you want to do with. There are enough skills that people can make there own niche builds. That they can change them says nothign against uniquenss, it just means they have options and choice.

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

08 Nov 2007 at 09:37 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHunterX

I was planning on buying HG:L, but now that I've learned that skill choices are set in stone, I won't bother. Thanks OP!

Me too. /me nods
I even got sick of paying 1 plat to do it in EQ2 each time.

Ranger Rog

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

UK

[TOG]

08 Nov 2007 at 09:48 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHunterX

I was planning on buying HG:L, but now that I've learned that skill choices are set in stone, I won't bother. Thanks OP!

I was planning on buying HG:L until I learned that as well as buying the game, if you want all of the features (that GW has for free) you have to pay a sub. Don't even get me started on the in game advertising and the rather ambiguously worded EULA that makes it sound like they are harvesting your PC for whatever data they like.

Anyway, off my HG:L high horse. I think that getting rid of refund points was one of the best updates to ever hit the game, it encourages diversity in builds and lets people experiment with new skills.

Iuris

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Crazy ducks from the Forest

W/

08 Nov 2007 at 10:17 - 27

Heh, if the no-respecs is what's keeping you from buying HG:L, you haven't seen the REAL problems with the game.

Back on topic:
I'd argue that no respecs actually make everyone MORE likely to be the same. As a different build demands the whole effort of starting a new character, the players are more likely to stick to the cookie-cutter optimised builds. The freedom to respec allows you to be unique because you know you can always go back to it.

crazy diamond

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

08 Nov 2007 at 11:02 - 28

Good lordie I've been playing this game all wrong! Time to roll a Wammo and start kicking ass!

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

08 Nov 2007 at 11:48 - 29

No respecs killed Hellgate for me, it was THE reason to never get it and to give up on it.

- - - -

zero respec system has no positives, fullstop.

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

08 Nov 2007 at 11:50 - 30

now that you mention this,

Re-Specs is one of the best idea ever! genius! imaging having 100 character slots in your account.

Lonesamurai

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Cheltenham, Glos, UK

Wolf Pack Samurai [WPS]

R/A

08 Nov 2007 at 12:25 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Removal of att refund points, and making respecs limitless, was one of the best changes this game has seen.

/seconded

end of thread

Amon Warrior

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2006

W/

08 Nov 2007 at 12:29 - 32

No possibility to change specs?! Man, dead game walking...

freekedoutfish

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

E/

08 Nov 2007 at 12:31 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

So I've started playing Hellgate: London lately. The dev team their has decided to go with a Diablo 2-style skill system, in which skill choices are set in stone forever, you can never change them. The community over there is hotly divided on whether this is a good or bad thing. Personally, I think the ability to change builds on the fly is the single best thing about Guild Wars, and singlehandedly makes it one of the best RPGs on the market. However..., well, here's a few quotes from those forums:

Discuss. Easy respeccing the best thing to ever happen to the game or a terrible idea?

I dont quite follow how guild wars allows you to change your build on the fly? You cant change your skill bar mid game. The only thing you can change is your equipment. Something you can do in all MMOs.

Also for the record I tried the Hellgate London demo and GWs blows the game out the water in many respects. The graphics just being one aspect. GWs looks far nicer on a top spec machine.

Hellgate london is a mess and its only redeeming aspect is its fast paced action and the use of the first-person perspective. Other then that, its interface isnt that easy to use, the storage system is too complicated, the "random environments" ruin the feeling of location and there doesnt see much to do other then kill, kill, kill and collect drops.

Also you can change your skill selections in hellgate london! You just need to re-enter an outpost like in GWs and change them there. Atleast thats how it was in the demo.

GWs and Hellgate London are very similar games in alot of respects.

Im really confused as to where you got your understanding of that game?

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

08 Nov 2007 at 13:15 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I dont quite follow ...

Yes, you dont.

Respeccs is reseting all relevant attributes to base and then redistributing them.

Not just reordering skills or putting them on ui

Antheus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

08 Nov 2007 at 14:20 - 35

Any words on Hellgate's population numbers?

boxterduke

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

Walking the ruins of Ascalon

DVDF

Me/

08 Nov 2007 at 14:56 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Removal of att refund points, and making respecs limitless, was one of the best changes this game has seen.

So true, that was one of the best updates ever.
I still remember having to put time aside to be able to setup my warrior to farm griffons. I had to make sure that no one needed help and that I was not doing any quests and such

Guild wars respec system ftw.

Malice Black

Site Legend

Join Date: Oct 2005

08 Nov 2007 at 15:01 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHunterX

I was planning on buying HG:L, but now that I've learned that skill choices are set in stone, I won't bother. Thanks OP!

Same here.

That really sucks. Was really looking forward to Hellgate. Oh well, I'll pick up TF2 or Quake Wars instead.

freekedoutfish

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

E/

08 Nov 2007 at 15:01 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Yes, you dont.

Respeccs is reseting all relevant attributes to base and then redistributing them.

Not just reordering skills or putting them on ui

Well from what I read, that wasnt explained in the OP. It was just stated that you either could or couldnt change your build on the fly. Nothing about attribute points. Thats why I assumed it only meant skills.

But isnt that how WoW works (your stats set in stone, unless you pay to change them) and look how many play that game?

Gun Pierson

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Belgium

PIMP

Mo/

08 Nov 2007 at 15:08 - 39

Respec is a must and it was one of the better adjustments we had in GW.

I wanted to give Hellgate London a try, just for fun, but I already know enough now.

No respec is taking a step back imo.

Cacheelma

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Ascalon Union

Me/Mo

08 Nov 2007 at 15:11 - 40

I stop reading when you pick the wammo-worshipping poem as an example.