Remove the Timer from Soul Reaping

Sleeper Service

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

it will be a dead issue when Anet FIXES it.

Saphatorael

Saphatorael

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

Quote:
Originally Posted by mortis corpus
Removing the Soul Reaping timer yes yes /signed now that SR gains nothing in spirits and why should necros be the only one with a unique attribute with a TIMER?!?!?!?! common anet
Strength is teh only attriboot dat gives armor penetraition!!!11!!11
GIVE SOUL REAPING SUM AP 2!!

boogerboy72

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2007

[Scar]

N/Me

lol, yes it is.

/signed.

Taurucis

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

The edge of reason

I don't play any more.

W/E

/signed

It aint infinite energy. You've got an energy cap at about 50. If SR triggered energy gain above the maximum, well, that would be a little worrysome...

I think removing the timer is fine. It's not like Necros spew out massive damage spells like Elementalists and their MSes and SFs... they mostly use Hexes, which can be removed, or even blocked (Hex Breaker anyone?) and you can't use Hex Breaker against most commonly used Ele skills...

One thing I wonder however is why SR was nerfed for PvP. I think more players play PvE, so why should the loud few overrule the quiet many?

cyberjanet

cyberjanet

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2007

The Netherlands

Rich Mahogany

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
One thing I wonder however is why SR was nerfed for PvP. I think more players play PvE, so why should the loud few overrule the quiet many?
That is now. The nerf was then. There was apparently an uber-awesome necro/rit build where killing spirits caused unlimited energy for the necros and a virtually unbeatable team - or so I understand it. I never got into PvP and probably never will now.

Then Anet so totally nerfed SR that everybody stopped playing Necro, even in PvE. I know I didn't play necro for months, from having quite a powerful character and build I had someone who died at the drop of a hat. It was easier to play secondary necro, even with a primary, you needed so many energy management spells. In fact I hardly played at all that time, dusted off my assassin and had a bash at mastering that unloved profession.

Everybody was crying for Anet to just remove the energy from spirits and restore SR. They compromised and gave us a timer. Now they've finally removed the energy from the spirits, but guess what, we still have a timer.

So, for me
/signed

I want my original character back.

Yichi

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
One thing I wonder however is why SR was nerfed for PvP. I think more players play PvE, so why should the loud few overrule the quiet many?
Because it was an imbalanced mechanic in its previous form. With the game balanced around PvP, it there is an imbalanced or broken mechanic in PvP, it will be adressed. End of story.

romeus petrus

romeus petrus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2006

Urgoz Warren

Legion of Doom [LOD] Home of PWNZILLA http://PWNZILLA.guildlaunch.com

/signed

Remove the timer from SR, the reason behind introducing it no longer exists.

Taurucis

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

The edge of reason

I don't play any more.

W/E

Well then, why would a game be balanced for a PvP few, instead of a PvE many? It just seems a little odd o.0

I mean, there's quite a few funky things in PvE... but I don't really see those getting addressed.

GloryFox

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

Quote:
With the game balanced around PvP, if there is an imbalanced or broken mechanic in PvP, it will be adressed. End of story.
Meanwhile the game continues to loose more and more players over a broken balance mechanic. The Community looses a little more of the player base each day.

Separate PvP from PvE and rebuild the community, breath new life into the game. In this way you can allow Necro's to use Soul Reaping as it should be and Aggressive Refrain as it was intended for Paragon High DPS.

Shadow Spirit

Shadow Spirit

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

Chicago

your cat eats dog food [pup]

N/E

/Signed

Nerfing a proffession's PRIMARY attribute was not a good solution to the problem. Now that they seem to have found a better solution, it's time for that attribute to be restored to its original state.

Vamis Threen

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2006

E/Mo

I can see why it was nerfed..... but I didn't complain because it didn't hinder my MM when it happened, I still had loads of energy. 5 seconds (or whatever)does seem rather arbitary and is senseless from a role-playing/mechanic/any perspective, and in principle I'm in favour of reverting it, but I'm not sure what skill combos it's currently damaging. Can someone explain how their lives are going to be better if SR returns to normal? Other than being less angry, that is.

mortis corpus

mortis corpus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

Private room in the Catacombs with Eve

Deaths Doormen (DOA)

N/E

i just feel that if they corrected the issue by removing the bennifit from spirits and still keep the timer to mean that necros have to live with double nerf, i can deal with the no gain from spirits however find one other class that there primary attribute suffers as much

BladeDVD

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Hawaii

Clan Of Elders

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Well then, why would a game be balanced for a PvP few, instead of a PvE many? It just seems a little odd o.0

I mean, there's quite a few funky things in PvE... but I don't really see those getting addressed.
I believe the argument is that PVP is a competition. You need a fair playing field in a competition or people won't want to play. Also remember that Anet offers large cash rewards for winning their tournaments.

But SR wasn't just nerfed for PVP dynamics. When this came out the developers said they've felt that SR was overpowered for a long time and have just now gotten to it.

Vinraith

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Profoundly /notsigned

The mere fact that there's no reason to play the game with anything other than a 4 necro team (my main and 3 heroes) because of how insanely powerful it is pretty much tells the tale. Anyone not playing a necro because of the timer just isn't very bright, it's still easily the most powerful class in the game as a restult of SR still being by far the most powerful primary attribute in the game.

Taurucis

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

The edge of reason

I don't play any more.

W/E

Before the SR nerf I didn't really see any threads stating that SR was overpowered... In fact I think a lot of people (especially necros) were fine with it, no one was complaining...

It's pretty strange, Anet's changing what seems to be fine and the stuff that needs to be changed hasn't been fixed. Shroud of Distress anyone?

BladeDVD

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Hawaii

Clan Of Elders

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Before the SR nerf I didn't really see any threads stating that SR was overpowered... In fact I think a lot of people (especially necros) were fine with it, no one was complaining...

It's pretty strange, Anet's changing what seems to be fine and the stuff that needs to be changed hasn't been fixed. Shroud of Distress anyone?
I'm sure that Anet's list of things that need attention is pretty long. They have to prioritize stuff and I imagine that often things will get done because they mesh well with another fix that needs to be made at the same time, or sometimes it probably just takes them a while to figure out how to address a problem.

No, generally you didn't see necros complaining about being given too much energy! I know I never did.

There has been a lot of arguing about whether SR was overpowered in other threads. Probably in this one too (I haven't read all the replies). To me it is pretty clear that it was overpowered before. But I didn't think it was so overpowered in PVE that it was game breaking either. Which may be why it took so long for a change to come...it just wasn't important enough to do sooner. That's just my opinion based on thousands of hours playing a necro since a bit after Factions came out though (just put this in for context, not to "prove" my point or anything.)

In any case, I don't have any real problems with the way things are now; it is unlikely that Anet will return SR to what it was before; I think it would be a pain to learn yet another new mechanic for SR; so I'm for leaving things as they are.

Carinae

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Take away the timer, and take away energy from minions. Problem solved, unexploitable but has better returns than the current situation.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Take away the timer, and take away energy from minions. Problem solved, unexploitable but has better returns than the current situation.
Take away the timer, take away energy from minions, and drastically reduce the cost of all minion skills and maybe I could sign on to that idea.

AuraofMana

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Georgia, US

Take away energy gain from minions is like taking away Divine from Monk spells and Strength to Warrior attack skills.

ManMadeGod

ManMadeGod

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

They nerffed so many necro skills because of soul reaping based build.
Icy Veins
Blood spike (OGaze is a joke now)... blood line is completely a joke.
FoC spike
Hex way
......

But those build require spirit spammer, now they are all dead.
SO remove the timer plz.
Someone said the timer is not important? lol
At least revert Icy Veins(10en -> 5en back), OGaze(remove < 50 condition) and FoC(15en ->10en back) plz.

/signed

Carinae

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
Take away the timer, take away energy from minions, and drastically reduce the cost of all minion skills and maybe I could sign on to that idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraofMana
Take away energy gain from minions is like taking away Divine from Monk spells and Strength to Warrior attack skills.
Currently minions trigger SR and that is a part of what makes SR unpredictable. The fact that they trigger SR, but don't leave a corpse is a major part of the problem for SR, because it means you can't reliably count on SR for energy returns.

So make it so minions don't trigger SR, but every player/monster does trigger it and you'll see the energy situation improve even without reducing minion costs.

More energy for PvE MMs, no exploitability for PvP necros, everyone wins.

Turtle222

Turtle222

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2007

:D:D

D/W

/notsigned

i find SR timer to be suitable, as there is no way getting 12-16 energy a death is fair :S, if the timer is removed, perhaps we will see many n/e's running about

Vinraith

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle222
perhaps we will see many n/e's running about
Alongside a JB MM it's already viable to run a necro pretending to be an ele, actually, or any other caster class for that matter (aside from perhaps healer monk). Removing the timer would make an already preposterously exploitable mechanic even more exploitable.

Carinae

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinraith
Alongside a JB MM it's already viable to run a necro pretending to be an ele, actually, or any other caster class for that matter (aside from perhaps healer monk). Removing the timer would make an already preposterously exploitable mechanic even more exploitable.
And the solution to that is to do either of the following:

1) Remove all SR returns from minions entirely (as well as removing the timer and reducing minion costs)

2) Remove SR returns from other peoples minions (still remove the timer, but leave minion costs alone).

People complain about SR, they even unknowingly manage to specify the problem, but they can't seem to suggest anything besides: screw necros!

Vinraith

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
And the solution to that is to do either of the following:

1) Remove all SR returns from minions entirely (as well as removing the timer and reducing minion costs)

2) Remove SR returns from other peoples minions (still remove the timer, but leave minion costs alone).

People complain about SR, they even unknowingly manage to specify the problem, but they can't seem to suggest anything besides: screw necros!
You're talking to a person whose main is a necro primary and who usually runs with a party of 3-7 other necros, why would I want to screw them? I would like a reason to take something other than a necromancer when it's available, though, and the current system (and especially the proposed SR timer removal in the OP) doesn't really provide one. Both of your solutions are pretty good, and I've already repeatedly voiced my support for option #1 in this thread, so I'm not exactly sure what your accusation is supposed to be aimed towards.

You can't see me

You can't see me

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

USA

P/W

I'm going to say this right now. Removing the timer is not the answer. Sure, it's not IMBA it some areas, but for others, it's like it's raining energy, which, there's no argument that that wouldn't be at all right, unless you just like to see things get owned no matter what difficulty they're so supposed to be, and you think everything should be /godmode. It needs to be thought out again. I do agree, however, that pets should count as corpses. Minions on the other hand should not.

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

N/

The 15 seconds timer is ok imo... very abusable in PvE while keeping the PvP abuses away. Now about no energy from minions I'm still not sure... I'd prefer the timer to stay along with my minions feeding my blue bar.

Carinae

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinraith
Both of your solutions are pretty good, and I've already repeatedly voiced my support for option #1 in this thread, so I'm not exactly sure what your accusation is supposed to be aimed towards.
Well, my apologies then. I seem to be grouchy today.

Sleeper Service

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

has anyone tried running a MM build with zero in SR? some of the "solutions" here seem to approximate that.


im going to try that out now, im not sure if lowering the casting cost of said minions will be a solution. My feeling is that Increasing the resistance/HP, decreasing degen (even removing it entirely?) of minions would be necessary.


Necro class was designed from the START with the concept that they would gain energy from minions. removing that mechanism would simply mean that necros would no longer be that class we have played these last 2 years.

a total skill rebalance would be needed. not only for Ne but ALL classes in relation to the new form it would have taken.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinraith
I would like a reason to take something other than a necromancer when it's available, though, and the current system (and especially the proposed SR timer removal in the OP) doesn't really provide one.
For the record, there's a half-dozen or so buff-here-and-nerf-there alternatives for soul reaping I'm willing to get behind. (Including the option of: remover timer + remove SR from minions + drastically reduce minion costs.) All of them include removing the timer, though.

I did not include anything more in OP than just "remove the damn timer" because:
1) A-net is lazy; the more you ask for, the less likely you are to get it.
2) A-net loves to nerf more than buff; if we ask for "nerf in way X and buff in way Y," we're likely to end up with just "nerf in way X."
3) I am much more concerned with getting SR working well than with making SR "balanced" in PvE. The timer is very clunky and it makes for a very poor gameplay experience. It absolutely must go. Now. A total non-impact in PvP is a certainty. We can worry about PvE "balance" later (if at all).

Vinraith

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper Service
has anyone tried running a MM build with zero in SR? some of the "solutions" here seem to approximate that.
Which solutions are those? I don't see anyone proposing that SR shouldn't generate energy from non-minion deaths. An MM with zero SR would get no energy from deaths of any kind, and thus is not a legitimate test.

Sleeper Service

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

there is no other way to test it.

seeing as a huge disproportionate amount of energy is coming from minions then...

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
Take away the timer, take away energy from minions, and drastically reduce the cost of all minion skills and maybe I could sign on to that idea.
Now let's think about that.
Especially if we bring this in:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
I think you've gotten the wrong impression. MM is extremely powerful -- arguably more powerful than any other build from any class -- for the vast majority of the game, both normal and hard modes. Obviously, it doesn't work in places where corpses are few. Other than that, it also has trouble in a small handful of zones where the monsters can pretty much insta-kill the poor little guys, most of which are in Hard Mode. (I might also add that, when most people think they've hit the point that the monsters are killing the minions too easily, they are WRONG! What they have hit is the point where they need to learn how to use BotM + their self-heal properly.) So, no, you will practically never find yourself unwanted.
Basically - even with the current e-return the MM is a god in most places.
And we want to make them better?
Ohh and let's buff SY+TNTF and UB while we are at it!

elsalamandra

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

I most honestly believe that the 'egg-timer' will never be removed.

It has been in place for quite a while now.

My primary char is Necro and the best thing we can all do is just adapt and 'get on with it'. I did and there are times where energy can be a problem but hey its not the end of the world for me.

If you are doing stuff with H/H make one of them secondary Necro and stick BR on it or use energy management skills.

This thread clearly shows 2 things.

1/ Anet are not really interested in either reading it and acting on all the input made by all concerned, or

2/ They have no intention of resetting or bettering the situation.

So best thing is to adapt, no point in moaning or making sugestions and no point in PvP'ers and PvE'ers alike flaming each other as is normally the case in threads of this nature.

VinnyRidira

VinnyRidira

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2007

Ridirian Guides

W/Me

Listen to us ANet : redress this stupid NERF, please.

Turtle222

Turtle222

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2007

:D:D

D/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyRidira
Listen to us ANet : redress this stupid NERF, please.
dont say us, because i don't agree with you. i think the nerf is fine

DDL

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinraith
You're talking to a person whose main is a necro primary and who usually runs with a party of 3-7 other necros, why would I want to screw them? I would like a reason to take something other than a necromancer when it's available, though, and the current system (and especially the proposed SR timer removal in the OP) doesn't really provide one. Both of your solutions are pretty good, and I've already repeatedly voiced my support for option #1 in this thread, so I'm not exactly sure what your accusation is supposed to be aimed towards.
The problem with SR here is that it's completely character independent. It's just fine with one or maybe two necros in an eight-man team. The death-derived energy nicely allows the necros to synchronise with everyone else and all are happy.

Of course, SR triggers per death for EVERY character with a necro primary, which is why all-necro teams are so broken. With four+ necros merrily killing stuff you pretty much never need to even bother looking at the little blue bar: it will be full.

Think about it:
one necro per team = 12-16 total energy per death
eight necros per team = 96-128 total energy per death (!!!!!)

Add in minions and it gets silly: You could have a minion-bomber build necro in there PURELY to supply the rest of the team with energy. It'd probably work better than a BiP necro, really.

Honestly though, I kinda LIKE this: it's broken, sure, but it's not something that will crop up ALL the time, and it does require either a lot of like-minded people or a mass of heroes. And it's unlikely to ever really impact on PvP, since there isn't enough constant death to fuel it now that spirits are out.


(Also, Vinraith: I know you already KNOW all this, but others might not have worked out how silly all necro teams can be)

RhanoctJocosa

RhanoctJocosa

Legendary Korean

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

W/

omg why does it matter. in pve energy is never a problem. in pvp necros don't rely on SR unless they're running a bs gimmick. bs gimmicks are bad. therefore sr timer = fine.

!!

cthulhu reborn

cthulhu reborn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

the Netherlands

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper Service
.


Necro class was designed from the START with the concept that they would gain energy from minions. removing that mechanism would simply mean that necros would no longer be that class we have played these last 2 years.

.
I don't get this reasoning. Necro's aren't the class we have played for 2 years by the chances made to SR and now the Spirit nerf. So I don't see how having played it for a couple of years changes anything...in fact the last 2 nerfs have already proven that that doesn't stand in Anet's way.

The timer would be much better imo if it trigged once every 5 seconds rather than 3 times every 15 seconds. That would give a much more consistent picture as far as I'm concerned.

Sleeper Service

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

Quote:
Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn
I don't get this reasoning. Necro's aren't the class we have played for 2 years by the chances made to SR and now the Spirit nerf. So I don't see how having played it for a couple of years changes anything...in fact the last 2 nerfs have already proven that that doesn't stand in Anet's way.

The timer would be much better imo if it trigged once every 5 seconds rather than 3 times every 15 seconds. That would give a much more consistent picture as far as I'm concerned.
changing the way the timer works (or adding one) is a small adjustment to the main attribute.

stopping energy gain from minions throws the whole minion battery out the window. Is that a bad thing? i dont know.

will it redefine the class as a whole?

definitely.