Remove the Timer from Soul Reaping

I have to say that I'm fine enough with the current soul reaping.

Since day 1 of Nightfall, I've been used to put SoLS on my bar, don't forget that it's not only an energy management, it's one of the most effective self healing necros have.


I find only a bit strange, because I was used to consider soul reaping as a "reward" for killing something, I casted my spells -> hopefully target died -> I received my "reward". Now it's more unpredictable.


Nevertheless, if a change in soul reaping is really needed (and I don't think it is, especially considering that if A.net puts again hands in it, they would 99% totally destroy, so better they don't touch it again), I would suggest to use the idea of leadership or mysticism.

Let's say for each 2 points in SR you get 1 energy, with no timer.
No energy from spirits, yes energy from every minion.

This would make energy gain more predictable, it would come in smaller amounts but with a smoother flow.

Besides that, it would discourage N/X build that exploit SR to receive a massive boost of energy, used to feed expensive spells whose cost would put in difficulty the primary X class.
Even with 16 SR a N/X would receive only 8 energy, so the N/X would not be able to fill his bar with expensive spells, counting on the fact he will receive 16 energy from every death.


Considering that a primary necro runs with 12/13/14 SR, he would receive 6-7 energy from deaths. Maybe the cost of some necro spells should be reworked in consideration of this.

Wow! Bravo for taking a quote from another thread totally out of context!!! Good job!!

I'm not sure if you even deserve a response, but I've decided to give you one:

1. There is no such thing as PvE "balance." If it ever existed at all, UB, SY, and TNFT prove that a-net no longer concern themselves with it. "It would make PvE too easy" is simply not a valid reason to nerf things or keep bad mechanics in place.

2. Fixing SR isn't about MM's only; it's about fixing the class as a whole. SR has to provide adequate energy for all sorts of builds. The focus on one subset of builds is misplaced and misleading.

3. The reason a "MM is a god in most places" has a whole lot to do with the monster AI's inability to "understand" that minions expendable and easily-replaceable. As a result, the monsters make two really dumb tactical decisions almost every time: (1) They divert a huge proportion of their offensive power away from the important targets in your party and onto the expendable minions. (2) Despite all their effort, they totally fail to reduce your party's offensive power because neutralized minions can (usually) be replaced as quickly as they fall. (By comparison, intelligent foes would target the master first and take all 10 minions out of play in one stroke.) So long as it's adequate to maintain and replace minions, the MM's energy supply is pretty much irrelevant to what makes a MM "god in most places." More energy isn't going to make the monsters any dumber; nor is it going to make the minions hit any harder; nor is it going to allow you to have an 11th minion. In short, more energy is not going to make MM's much stronger.

4. "Remove the timer + Remove SR from minions + drastically reduce minion costs" would NOT make MM's stronger. It would keep the MM in pretty much the same position. You'd spend around 12e less to summon a minion, and you'd get around 12e less back when it died. The net effect would be near zero.

This was what they did when they first nerfed the skill : http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Game_up...il#Necromancer

It removed so much energy from Necros that they had to keep reducing the energy cost of necro skills for a while.

Do you actually understand what you are saying here?

You are, basically, saying that necromancers in PvP lack a primary unless they are running some gimmick. Gimmicks which, I might add, do no longer work.

You are absolutely correct. Necromancers are the only class that, in PvP, effectively lack a primary. Not even Warriors or Ritualists have such a bad primary. Warriors have a motherload of Strength skills, plus AP. Ritualists have increased duration of Weapon spells and, again, a load of Spawning skills.

Necromancers have no primary attribute in PvP. Shouldn't this be fixed??!!

I fail to see how how the quote was out of context.
What the quote clearly shows is that the MM build is very strong.
Anyone who has played a cursing necro will also say the same thing - it is insanely strong.
Blood has issues. Because of the way blood works - it can pretty much never be as strong as other options. Life loss/stealing is just a bit of a too insane concept.

SR already provides enough for all sorts of builds (or one can use skills that help with that!). The difference between the builds that have enough energy and the ones that don't can be simply explained in two points:
1. the builds that don't have enough energy suck
2. the person running the builds that don't have enough energy sucks
This isn't directed towards you - it's just a simple observation of what kind of build people that complain about the lack of energy want to run. Or how they want to run them.
I would really like to see a build that follows all the basic rules of GW - starting with "Caster classes require sufficient energy to cast energy based-skills" that doesn't work.

Please define what would be suitable energy costs for skills that would have to be altered if the deaths from minions would not trigger SR anymore?
I would seriously like to hear somebody say that having the ability to effectively have 10 more party members isn't worth the current price.
Eg. 10 or 25 energy (times 10 of course!).

What we are left with is a VERY powerful PvE class.
And we have people that have issues with the class - because they are not very good at the game.
And you are asking the developers of the game to cater those people?
Let's make this VERY clear.
You are asking to cater the wishes of some seriously bad players to make the game better?

You hit the nail on the head. This is what I've been trying to get through to people for a while. Glad to see that someone else can see the true problem with SR.

I have issues with the class - and it isn't because I am not very good at playing it. In fact, I think I might be one of the better at playing it.

I have issues with the class because Soul Reaping is broken.

The timer is a slap in the face. Spirit triggers have been removed. Effective exploitation of the Soul Reaping mechanic is no longer possible in mid-high-range PvP. People look on this as if it were a GOOD thing. It ISN'T! Paragons "exploit" Leadership in PvP all the time. Mesmers "exploit" Fast Casting. Monks "exploit" Divine Favor. Elementalists "exploit" Energy Storage.

It isn't good if you feel the need to take a primary attribute and nerf it into complete uselessness for competitive use. If you're left with this solution, then this solution should be completely rethought.

To reiterate:

The Soul Reaping timer is obsolete and unnecessary. Soul Reaping is already a magically strong primary attribute in PvE, and keeping or removing the timer won't have much of a difference there for any half competent player.

It is time for the designers of the game to give the Necromancer class a boon. It's a class that's been treated with much hate and no love, for a very long time. Soul Reaping needs to be reworked, the Necromancer spell lines need revisiting. There are several options to make the class more viable for PvP. Options include passive as well as active effects of the primary. Several spells now littered through the spell lines should be moved to Soul Reaping - to make the attribute at all desirable, and to prevent abuse by secondaries.

I think that's all for now.

I assure you, it does. In corpse heavy areas you can run two JB bombers with 5-6 other necros and spam literally anything you want regardless of energy cost without any problems at all.

Yup, I'd basically agree with your entire analysis except that I wish it was a little less overpowered than it is in PvE. I find myself running all or nearly all necro configurations about 90% of the time, I'd kind of like a reason to diversify my builds more. I think I'm going to start playing my warrior more just to force myself to rethink builds again.

You, sir, are a retard. Do you even know some of the big names that work on or who created Guild Wars? Let me list but a few:

Mike O'Brien, Co-Founder and Programmer, currently leads the design and content teams for Guild Wars. Previously, he was a company director of Blizzard, where he worked for more than four years. He was most recently the team lead and lead programmer of Warcraft III, for which he personally developed the game's 3D rendering engine. Mike was the original creator and architect of Battle.net and was lead programmer on that project. He was also a senior programmer on StarCraft and Diablo, as well as the author of the network code for both games, and was a programmer on Warcraft II. Mike was featured as one of the 25 most influential people in the game industry in PC Gamer's September 1999 cover story, "Game Gods".

James Phinney, Game Designer, started as a programmer at Chaos Studios, which later became Blizzard Entertainment. He worked on Warcraft II and Diablo, then as lead designer and producer on StarCraft. James also wrote the story and dialogue for Shiny Entertainment's Sacrifice. James is the Game Design Team Lead for Guild Wars.

Jeff Strain, Co-Founder and Programmer, currently leads the production and art teams for Guild Wars. Prior to the founding of ArenaNet, Jeff was the team lead and lead programmer of Blizzard's massively multiplayer role-playing game, World of Warcraft. He was also a senior programmer on both Warcraft III and StarCraft, and a programmer on Diablo. Jeff was the creator of the StarCraft Campaign Editor and was employed at Blizzard for four years.

You are among GAME GODS! Bow down, sir! Who in the hell do you think you are?

Rits have a rubbish primary, arguably worse than Soul Reaping. Most competitive Rit builds do not use a single skill from Spawning Power, and its only purpose is to have a place to dump your leftover attribute points. Having a bad primary doesn't stop Ritualists from seeing play, and it's not what's stopping Necros from seeing play, either. So in that sense, I'd say Soul Reaping is currently not a problem in PvP.

It doesn't matter how much experience someone has, when they screw-up it's still a screw-up. With all the stuff the people you mentioned are busy with, it's possible that they might not see the problem unless someone says something. And yes, sometimes an unexperienced person can come up with a better idea than an experienced person.

Sab, first of all, you're splitting hairs. Ritualists aren't seeing a lot of play either, to be true, and I didn't claim they had a strong primary, quite the opposite.

Second, though:
This is false. Necromancers aren't seeing play in high-level PvP because necromancers, basically speaking, are hexers. Say hello to Fast Casting.

You were suggesting that Spawning power skills and the lengthened weapon duration were useful in practice, but players rarely spec enough into Spawning for that to actually matter.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that Soul Reaping being weak has nothing to do with why they're not seeing play. Here's an explanation for why that is: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10223762

"Fixing" Soul Reaping isn't going to make Necros more viable, unless you want to promote the gimmick trash builds Necros are usually associated with.


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I was responding to a previous statement saying that Necros have a crap primary attribute for PvP, and that this needed to be "fixed". His use of the word "fix" is different from your use, in that there are problems inherent within Necros which have nothing to do with SR. Buffing SR without addressing the inherent one-dimensionality of Necros will just result in more gimmicks, so I think SR is fine as it is.

Sab, if SR is "fixed" then there won't be any gimmicks. That's what "fix" means. And SR being weak does hurt necros because their skils work better with other primaries. Why would you take a necro if a mesmer can do it better?

I LOVE the sparkle in your eyes!
You make it sounds as if you just opened the closet and saw that it leads into a strange and fascinating new world!

First of all - PvE only. Always and forever.
Second of all - and the reason why I mentioned the closet above - you make it sound as if you never were here when skill were balanced. Balanced in A.Net's eyes means not overpowered.
And thats what SR is in (normal)PvP - not overpowered. Sure it is shit - but it's not overpowered and that is why it's ok!
The problem with reworking is that it doesn't make sense. They won't earn anything from it. People won't rush into the store to get GW because now SR is better!
Second of all - having passive energy gain on a caster is just beyond broken. So if they want to make anything from SR that will be usable in PvP - they need to start by removing any kind of connection with passive energy gain.
Which they won't.
Because it's balanced as it is.
Well for now. SR in PvE is still beyond overpowered so they still have room to make a few more hits! (But then again - even if it was shit there ( I am looking at you FC!) that wouldn't stop them!)

Now I think you misunderstand me. I don't think my use of the word "fix" is different from weed's "use".
Thanks for pointing me to the thread, however, I will try to post some suggestions there.

Re: Upier

The belittling tone in your post cannot hide the lack of actual content. Basically, you are agreeing with me. The primary is worthless for competitive use.

The idea that ArenaNet would not earn any goodwill, thus any money, from catering to their customers, is beyond insane. They have a legacy to protect, and treating the buyers of their biggest hit game with more respect would earn them millions.

Like I said - PvE always!
Of course it's crap in PvP. But the discussion here is "I want unlimited energy in PvE once again!"
SR won't be fixed in PvP by removing the timer - like you said - it needs to be reworked. And the passive energy gain needs to go!
And I am pretty sure that's not what the people bitching here want!

Now the big question is - do you really think that making SR PvP-ready and gaining more energy from SR in PvE are compatible?
I am pretty sure if they fixed SR for PvP - we'd see legions of necro PvE fans slitting their wrists (so to speak)!
Most definitely no gained good-will from that!

Re: Moloch Vein

Still, I can't see how removing the timer is a solution for anything. In PvE, SR is strong enough already, and in PvP, the whole Necro profession needs to be reworked.

Well, that's a bold statement. I don't think the passive energy gain needs to go. If we're talking about "passive energy gains", necromancers are by no means the only culprits in the bunch. Alright, so other characters gain energy upon activating skills, or simply attacking. Still, hardly active energy management, would you think? I don't think I've ever had more of a feeling of "unlimited energy" than playing a Paragon. That's both for PvE and PvP, mind you.

We've already pointed out that the Soul Reaping engine is, in its current form, very hard to exploit successfully in normal/high level PvP.

Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the fix.

Gaining more energy from Soul Reaping in PvE isn't needed. It's more of a case of the timer being a thoroughly inelegant, and completely unnecessary, set of handcuffs.

I would be more than willing to present a ton of different suggestions here - if I felt that there was anyone from the designer team listening to us. I'm not exactly feeling that at this point.

Oh, and I think it might be wise if I pointed out one thing.

It does not matter to me, all that much, if they remove the timer from Soul Reaping. What I am saying is that the designers need to realize that the design is broken, and that their fix was neither optimal nor desirable. What it did was moving necromancers from one place in mid-high-range PvP (Gimmick Trash) to another (No Place At All). It's hardly a great result.

But there is a simple difference.
Infinite energy on a paragon makes the paragon better at being a paragon.
SR makes the necro better at being ANY caster.

So, why risk it?

Given A.Net's history, the fact that they are pretty much focusing on GW2 - do you really there is a possibility of a "maybe" outside of creating a dual SR - SR that works one way in PvE and a completely another way in PvP (complete with a dual description - eg. SR does X in PvP and SR does Y in PvE!)!

And I agree - the timer is BEYOND inelegant. The problem is that this shows what was the best thing they were able to come up with.

Well, removing the timer will solve something for a number of PvE players like myself.
I agree however that there is a basic design flaw. Not just for necro's mind you. To me the basic flaw is that some primary's can be used of course only by having the primary but grants you advantages for skill use of your secondary. The fact that there is a big difference between primary attributes as in some carry over their effects on the secondary and some do to various different extents is wron in my view.
I still think it's strange that expertise works on vampiric bite for example, making rangers excellent and being touchers.
The necro/rit builds prove the same points.
The primary attributes are too different from each other to talk of comparable strengths and some can too easily be abused. I think that when we talk about redesigning primary's it's all of them that need to be looked at and not just the necro redesign.
It stands to logic that if you can only get a primary attribute by being the primary that it would have it's best advantage and use for skill use of the primary. This is in some cases not the situation and that to me is the main issue.

Never going to happen. They certainly won't undo all the hard work they did by picking necro apart in the first place.

I notice now that my attempt to revive the discussion, to which I was pointed by Sab, resulted in a very quick lockdown of the thread.

Nice going.

its open again moloch.

It's still a bit too tight on higher end MM builds, especially in HM, where energy is extremely sensitive to miscasts, interrupts, energy steals and such. Losing even a single cast of Fiends can be devastating. I find myself having to pull things out of the fire on too many occassions, and while I expect that to happen from time to time, especially in HM, I don't enjoy living on the brink of doom all the time.

Part of the problem is that some of the key spells for MMs actually interfere with SR, which is of course not only bad, but probably not an intended result on Anet's part.

The biggest offender here is Shambling Horrors, and to a lesser extent: Jagged Bones and OoU, although the last two at least offset the SR issue with additional damage. But Shamblings can absolutely screw your SR returns into the ground, due to the combined way they interact with the minion cap and the SR timer. At some point, you'll raise one minion and have several SHs rollover, firing all your SR trigger at once, and also overflowing much of that return. This leaves you in a bad place if you need to animate more corpses.

I proposed two solutions earlier on this thread that solve this problem, while still not screwing up PvP.