Revert the Pet-Corpse Nerf

Well if its for pvp reasons and I say again If its for pvp reasons then yet again I ask for a seperation of pvp and pve.
What is so difficult about making changes in one without affecting the other.
There are plenty of global effects in the game, simply have global effects that alter the way skills work in pvp.

However if the changes are made because of a pve player exploit I guess we will have to live with them.

It aint logical as the usual rule is
Its alive
Now its dead
It leaves a body
I have heard of game areas where a party take pets just so they can provide an instant undead army.
I am guessing thats the real reason for the nerf.

Pets receive DP in PvP only.

Pets should not leave an exploitable corpse in PvP only.

That is all.

this really isnt that hard on the B/P runs. almost all of the foes leave corpses here. So you wont get the couple at the start big deal.
I have been MM in tombs MANY times and this really wont have a huge impact. It will go just the same well better actually since barrage got buffed.

Start of the run, or start of every skirmish? In my experience my pet often dies multiple times in any particular skirmish. I tried to leave it dead long enough for the necro to make use of it, but that wasn't always possible.

The boost in barrage damage is far outweighed by the nerf that splinter weapon suffered.

Edit : seems some on-topic stuff was lost, so I'm reposting it :

I think you're missing the point.

The BP/MM tomb run build is an example of a combo that was adversely affected because of the update. Given that this build was in place for well over a year without any apparent exploits (we've already got one claim for a superior build from another poster), and that no one can provide an example of how a necro could exploit the pet corpse thing, what's the harm in leaving it in?

As a side note : Splinter B/P is indeed viable in my experience. If I'm facing mobs that group well, I'll always take B/SW/P on my skillbar. And I always try to heal my pet when in a tomb run. Blackouts are annoying.

Well, why don't we remove all monk elites? If people get upset over that, does that prove the change was needed? /sarcasm

I'll admit that I have a soft spot for tomb runs. When they first came out, it was one of the few places that, as a ranger, you were actually wanted in a farming team.

They both serve as meat shields. As the pets die, the MM creates more minions which keeps everyone safe from the grasps of insanity.

Because someone actually synergised two events? Usually this is called "a good build". For instance, the old earthshaker/aftershock W/E combo. Just because someone thought up a way to use something that Anet did not specifically think of beforehand while designing the skills does not inherently make it an exploit.

And if we nerf monk healing so that they can't heal, and people stop playing monks, does that mean monks are an exploit?

Again, no. Just because a change makes something unviable does not show that the change needed to be made. You have to show that the combination was overpowered and that there was no alternative that could similarly replace the combination, and no reasonable way to counter the combination. We've already got one person claiming that his heroes managed to run the tombs faster than the average B/P run, frankly I think that's proof right there that the B/P run was not overpowered.

Everyone QQing about MM's getting nerfed because pets don't leave corpses in B/P teams makes me laugh. Drop your worthless player MM and throw Olias in there, hes a million times better at MM then any player lawlz.

As I've said, it's just the most readily available example. It's certainly not the worst effect (that would be the loss of internal-consistency).

1. I love this argument. Yes, it is a game. But it is set in a quasi-realistic world... i.e., there's basic rules about life and death. In it, living animal creatures leave (exploitable) corpses when they die. Or at least they used to. Now it has to be qualified: they do, unless they are a tamed pet. How does that make any sense in any way?

2. I hate when changes for one side (PvE/PvP) screw over something on the other. It's like, hey ANet there's this part of the game called PvE. As long as both parts are connected skills-wise, changes to one affect the other. Do they not realize this, or do they just not care? This change screws over a fun build (Tombs B/P) for no good reason.


Let pets have their corpses back! (at least in PvE)
/signed

Elrien...

I'd love to know how you make SW and your pet work well together? How do you distribute your points?

I try to find this exploit but don't seems to be able to locate it, can someone point the direction.


Although I agree AI are much better then human players most of the time, but B/P groups are about the last group type that players still play with other players. except PvP off course. nah, don't drop your MM player, a little "human contact" is still sometime good. although often time it is un-tolerable when 2 team members decide to start a typing-quarrel-fest .... ps: i am not the mm in a b/p group, i am a damn good puller if you trust me.

Really ?

Want me to tell you how many times Olias has been down to just the Flesh Golem and he gets it back up as some other animation

Or the problem with Death Nova where olias decides when there isnt even a fight to randomly kill off his army with it

Boy you know some really crappy MMs
You have my sympathy for having them inflicted on your parties.

However if you leave out the Golem and the animation destroying skills olias is moderatly compitant at keeping 6 or 7 animations going.

He will not keep 10 going and he will not balance the types or use jagged bones constructively.

There seems to be a bit of a downer on MMs recently but they are still a very effective pve build.

You have 10 blocking warrior types that can explode disease cause bleeding etc not to mention every reduction of the enemies ranks is an increase in party size.
Jagged bones keeps recycling them and the veratas Gaze and Aura skills can steal the enemy undead which is good fun.

I use MM SS as well as blood builds on my necro and wouldnt give any up.

I say instead of pets leaving no corpse, have all PvP arenas placed under a spell that renders all pet corpses unexploitable for the entire duration of the match.

The reason for this change is that SWAY used to run 2-3 thumpers with pets and when one of these pets died a necro would use animate bone minions for the SR benefit than the thumpers would res the pets and they would die again sometime later leaving another corpse for the necro to make minions and it would get easier and easier for the pet to die thanks to DP eventually what would happen is the necros would get this army of minions up and they would do damage as well as giving the necros a ton of energy when they died.

doesn't doing that, raising a minion armies requires time and skill at play as well, especially in a PvP situation? the thumper have to take care of ressing the pets and also at the same time fight the opposition and the necros could be under attack anytime?

if your group cannot fight them before they raise an army, or at least minimise their chances of a hugh army, does that even qualify you to win any game at all in a PvP arena?

just a thought...more of a question actually. what I mean is if your PvP group is good you will be able to interrupt necros raising minions and thumper ressing thair pets and at the same time while they still don't have the minion army take down the whole team?

just a though.

Umm, why are you giving a hero Flesh Golem?

You can't kill a minion with Death Nova. You're maybe thinking Taste of Death? In which case, heores are terrible with Taste of Death - stop putting it on their bar. They are fine with Death Nova. In fact, they are much better with Death Nova than any player because they can micro-manage much better with it - applying it to those about to die flawlessly.

He can keep 10 from the first 10 kills everytime I bring him. Unless we hit some heavy fire that wipes them all out, or cover large areas with little to no corpses. Otherwise, yeah, the heroes do just fine. Maybe you should analyze the skillbar you're giving them.

Heroes use Jagged Bones just as good as Death Nova - perfectly. You sure we're talking about the same game, here?

Yeah... no comment.

You fail at giving Olias a good bar, don't blame him.

[skill]Barrage[/skill][skill]Splinter Weapon[/skill][skill]Warmonger's Weapon[/skill][skill]Lightning Reflexes[/skill][skill]Troll unguent[/skill][skill]flesh of my flesh[/skill][skill]comfort animal[/skill][skill]charm animal[/skill]
Mks mask, sup mks rune, sup vig, minor rune for other ranger skills.

Attributes are : 12MKS, 7BM, 9EXP, 8WS, 10CHA. You can then add 2 to BM, 1 to MKs or 1 to CHA.

If you prefer, you can drop the res and/or stance for pet attacks, and the troll unguent (as well as WS) if you trust your monk.

Here's the bottom line.

Necromancers are an all powerfull character class. They should simply be removed from the game so that Anet no longer has to nerf them or other character classes to keep the necromancers in check.

Minion numbers were reduced to 10 to control the outrageous number of minions in PvE and PvP alike.

Soul Reaping (nerf #1) changes were brought about because people claimed it to be an unbounded source of energy (not so much, but whatever makes PvP and Anet sleep at night). This round of nerfs also included changes that impacted Ritualists as well in regards to casting and maintaining spirits to help keep a handle on the PvP necro SR issues.

I'll mention the change to gaining SR from up to 3 in a 15 second time just because they did it (bears absolutly no relevance on how SR works per the original class and attriute description anyway).

Soul Reaping (nerf #2) negates energy gain from spirits completely. Which should have been done the first go around AND should have been the only thing done with nerfing SR period.

Pets loose exploitable corpse due to the Necromancer ability to "exploit" their corpses. Hum, go figure. (I wonder why the word exploit is used in the necro skill descriptions as well when they use a corpse)

So instead of players having the ability to partake in creative gameplay and live up to the challenge of overcoming some of these PvP destroying builds that have been the core of these changes, they are called "exploits" and must be changed at all costs.

I must question what is to come next. What other ways will the Necromancers destroy PvP fun and balance by exploiting another aspect of another class? When will it all end? Who is next? Why must all these other unworthy character classes be made to suffer and continually be nerfed because this one all powerfull Necromancer class exists?

Truly these other classes aren't even worth playing because the Necromancer can do it all and is soooo overpowered. My god, how has Anet let this one dominating class to survive for over 2 years??

The only answer left is to remove the Necromancer completely. It is the only way.

Slowly all classes will die from being bashed with the nerf bat. It only makes sense. With all of Anets attention on GW2, how to convince everyone now playing GW transition to GW2 when the time comes? Surely there is only one way......make GW unplayable. Masterminds, ingenious, I applaude Anet.

DEATH TO THE NECROMANCER, STRIKE HIM FROM EXISTANCE!!!!!
Beware, all other classes will pay silver to the the boatman when thier time is up as well.

And IRL monks don't really heal people with magic, and warriors don't really have to hit something 20 times with an axe to make it die. Should probably fix those things too to make the game more real, rather than caring about game balance.

QUOTE Re-Evaluation of Nerfs and Buffs from Wiki

[edit] Update - Tuesday November 13
[edit] Play Balance Updates
We will be evaluating the following changes over the course of this week. Additional adjustments may be made during this time period.

[edit] Assassin
Black Lotus Strike: decreased Energy gain to 5..18; this skill now counts as a lead attack.
Expose Defenses: decreased duration to 1..11 seconds.
Horns of the Ox: decreased damage to 1..11.
Impale: increased casting time to 1 second.
Trampling Ox: decreased damage to 5..20.
[edit] Mesmer
Ineptitude: increased recharge time to 20 seconds.
[edit] Monk
Word of Healing: decreased unconditional heal amount to 5..130.
[edit] Necromancer
Soul Reaping: no longer gains any benefit from Spirits.
[edit] Ranger
Barrage: increased damage to 5..20 damage.
Energizing Winds: decreased duration to 1..31 seconds.
Magebane Shot: increased disable time to 10 seconds; decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.
Player Pets: no longer leave exploitable corpses.
[edit] Miscellaneous
Changed the elite skill used by the henchman Mhenlo in Eye of the North to Word of Healing.



[edit] GuildWiki Notes
[edit] Update - Thursday, November 08, 2007
[edit] Skill Updates
We will be evaluating the following changes over the course of the next week. Additional adjustments may be made during that time period.

I hope the last statement rings true and after the evaluation they put back exploitable corpses on the pets. or is it going to be stuff the PVE`ers "AGAIN" and "AGAIN" and "AGAIN" and "AGAIN". ETC ETC ETC
ps leave the Buff on barrage and take the nerf off Splinter as well. :-))))

And how many times has Anet reverted a nerf??

Here, let's count them now:

1.

I think the buff on Barrage is to compensate the lost of exploitable pets corpses for tomb run, if i guess correctly, if corpses are back, barrage will be back to as it was most probably.



on another note:
I still don't understand nerfing pvp or balancing pvp, in my understanding, in PvP your team try to win with a build that your team thinks is the super duper build, if team A super duper build cannot win over team B super duper Build, every time this happens Anet has to nerf some skill just so the super duper build of team B can be taken down? why can't team C, D, E, F, et cetera come up with a super duper X 2 build to counter the super duper build of team B? instead of alway relying on anet to nerf/balance the arena so that a team can win? if team C, D, E, F, et cetera cannot even come up with a super duper build to counter the super duper team B build, then team B deserve to be champion? No?

I am not sure that is clear, but bleh, thats the best i can explain what I am thinking about nerf/ skill balancing atm.

lol, perhaps i should cut my fingers off first then try counting

No one has hit on the fact this is another hit to the 'traditional' DoA team in foundry of failed creations. The normal obs/healers/sb/dmg team generally used a pet to consume corpse back through the doors for a easier time with some of the big spawns, not any more ~

Wow, would you like your cake and to eat it too? Maybe they could give ya a few hundred bucks for free while theyre at it? =P j/k !

What doors are you talking about?

And if this is really the exploit they're trying to fix, they should just add a script which moves the pet corpses to the "right" side of the door when the doors close.

i hope they leave this change and nerf the ursan form skill i also hope they remove consumables

Just for the sake of being correct:

1. Searing Flames was returned to its original burning duration after they nerfed it
2. They removed exhaustion from the rit spike skills from the exhaustion nerf (lol)

That would be 2, but I don't really feel like checking over all the update notes to see what was reversed. Just because they haven't reversed many nerfs doesn't mean they won't ever, maybe they are happy with the way the nerf changed the game and had no reason to change it back, even though I don't like with the pet corpse nerf, if ANet thinks the game is more balanced that way then they have no reason to change it back.

=P

I know u where only joking at my tounge in cheek about request for reversing Splinter but ummmm yeah, if i could have my cake and eat it as well plus extras with topping and a cherry on top i wouldn`t say no

LOL WUT.
Seconded.
Why not just make all Assassins not have an exploitable corpse. Because thats how much sense this nerf makes.

Eh... you could get a skill to auto kill a flesh golem where you want it and use its consumable corpse instead of the pet to teleport where you want to go.

Why not just make pet res...Comfort Animal and Revive Animal PvE only...and revert pets back to exploitable.

Why dont they simply make PvP skills and PvE skill two different sets. Make it like its two different games. This was all the stupid exploits in PvP dont screw up PvE.

I was going to rant and bitch but I didnt.

~the rat~

Yeah, we should write beastmasters out of the PvP game ENTIRELY.

While we're at it, let us make protection prayers self target only. /sarcasm

my apologies..
maybe if playing an actual Beastmaster in PvP pet res only activates with 13 or more in BM..and possibly lengthen recharge of pet res depending on BM level too..
and revert pets back to normal in PvE...

as i see pets now they are obsolete with excepton to true Beastmaster or players just wanting to display pets like a trophy..for eg Spider and Rainbow Phoenix.

/signed. This is just a strange nerf. Now I have to try to get the Ursan build working (i.e. maxed titles) so I can get on a DOA team.

I still don't get the "pets ~ no exploitable corpse" change.
It makes no logic within the game mechanic system as stated earlier (post 7 post 41)

It's not about B/P Tombs runs even if they are classic.
It's about pvp and to be honest, I haven't read one complain about pet/ minion factories being that off a big problem in HA (even less in GvG) before the change. You don't want minions in pvp? well then move 'em to pve-only-skills.

LOL and make sins, paragons and wth monks to PVE only too.

if its too hard Anet can make them some nice pvp only skills.

Izzys Blessing, 5e 1r

all skillbars on all players are replaced with random core skills for 30 days.

/signed

A pet that leaves no corpse is somewhat unnatural.

Rangers, the tree huggers that they are, are at one with nature. They have the ability to charm a wild animal to be a companion. The animal is tamed to be their pet.

To rid themselves of a pet, Rangers can visit a Pet Tamer, and sell their animal.

To say that after charming an animal (a fleshy creature), it would no longer leave a corpse, would suggest that the animal was not simply tamed, but manipulated in an unnatural and dirty way. *stare daggers at Necros everywhere*

To suggest that some form of necromancy is at work, does not match the concept of what a Ranger is, that of a berry gathering naturalist.

As it stands, I do not feel like a tree hugging, berry gathering naturalist who had bravely and proudly tamed a wild and vicious reef lurker. Instead, I feel uneasy and awkward knowing that I'm actually walking around with a demonic manifestation in the form of an ethereal entity wearing a colourful crab suit.

Please revert this change, my demonic manifestation scares me... it bleeds.

LOL, this needs to happen.

PvP balances are affecting PvE far too much, and this particular nerf makes no sense. /signed to revert.

wow you must live under a rock then. people complained SO much about the team build that caused all these problems - that's the reason they changed the amount of heroes you could take into HA from 4 to 2. that's also the reason soul reaping was nerfed in the first place.

there are many variations of this build, but here it is - http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Te...ainted_Heroway

picture this.

you're getting your face bashed in by 2 (usually 3) rangers w/hammers, 2 (usually 3) pets and you have barbs on you, your whole team has -10 degen from conditions and hexes, you're knocked down in savannah heat, there's minions w/death nova everywhere, and you can't kill anything because the necros (which you can't hit, because they stand in wards) have INFINITE ENERGY from spirits and pets, and all your are teammates dying in one big bomb because of eoe, aoe, and rising bile.

that sound balanced to you?

sorry, but making a few pve mm's cry over pet corpses is NOTHING compared to the torture pvp'ers have been dealing with for the past year. it was just too good of an exploit. if you thought it was good in bp groups...imagine how good it was when exploited by skillful players in pvp.

who gives a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if it doesn't make sense logically. this is a game where we shoot fireballs out of our hands and make ghosts rise up and throw globs of green goo at our enemies ffs. balance is more important than any rationalization about how dead cats can be turned into zombies.