Revert the Pet-Corpse Nerf

The strongest criticism against this change has got nothing to do with the nerf effects of a particular build or playing style, it's that the players cease being able to understand and thus intelligently interact with the game-world.

Where is the common ground in a MMORPG when there are up to approximately 1.5 million imagined sets of magical rules?

actually i was refering not to the nature of minion summoning but rather the energy return of minion summoning, ie: soul reaping.

A pet dies. all Necros gain energy
Two minions are raised with the investment of 15 energy by 1 necro.
Both minions die giving all necros energy.
Pet is ressed.
rinse.
repeat.

Since the pet has accumulated DP, it can be and be ressed at a much faster pace, providing long distance energy batteries for the necros (with minimal cost for the Ranger casting comfort animal thanks to expertise), as well as source for minions, which also provide energy batteries as well as damage.

Removing pets as corpses doesnt change the fact that the necros can still use minions as batteries (from other sources), as well as the death of the pet as batteries.

If we look at this situation, what is the cause and effect?

Its it the pet's fault or the necro's fault? Whos being exploited? Whos doing the exploiting?

Imo the function of a pet dying and getting turned into a minion should exist in the game. But not as an inexhaustible supply of energy. But as an interesting gameplay element and tactic.

holy masamune: You keep bringing up to the whole "build" thing. I pointed out my opinion on nerfs ont hat thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...1&postcount=24

/signed

It seems a bit stupid that you can create minions from the corpses of your fallen teammates. The same for enemies, if they're fleshy you can use their corpse. Heck, even for untamed pets, you can still use their corpse. But as soon as a pet dies, you can't use it 's corpse to create a minion. Why? What makes the pet so special that it doesn't leave a corpse? By all rights, if it's dead, the corpse should be able to be used, because it is a fleshy creature

maybey cause the pet is blessed with anti nec things?

Since you can't animate your pets what about your fellow party members.

The problem here is that you falsley draw the conclusion that ANet wants to nerf the build to hell. CONSIDER that they may be trying to just eliminate ONE of the ways that they think the build is overpowered. ANet STILL wants necros to have energy, still wants them to use minions as batterys, but for some reason they want to remove this one source of corpses. The only reason you care is because you want to make a big scene about some imagined game play mechanics that YOU made up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song Removing pets as corpses doesnt change the fact that the necros can still use minions as batteries (from other sources), as well as the death of the pet as batteries.

So why is it such a problem in PvE? There are a few hundred enemies in a zone, and a good fifty or so (sorry, I never really cared to count) in each level of ToPK. That's more than enough corpses to fuel MMs, don't you think?

Additionally, "other sources", in PvP, are human players. Human players are not usually expendable, however, pets are. They can be resurrected on demand cheaply and quickly, without hurting the team's chance of success (burnt Resurrection Signets are key), thus creating a theoretically endless supply of energy to the Necromancers, whereas human players provide an incredibly small theoretical energy pool in comparison.

The change to pets was good for the game as a whole. It will serve (as well as other recent changes) to encourage players in PvP to move away from a very gimmicky build and to hopefully play something more balanced, and will do the exact same thing in PvE.

less putrid explosion has always been good for the game.

because wards weren't the problem, the necros and pets were. thumper teams pwned plenty of face without taking wards in their builds.

lolwut? there is no lod on a thumper team - the necros do the healing. and nerfing lod only made that build more powerful.

"lyra_song is using Straw Man on AoE Hexes!"

ONLY ON NECROMANCERS BECAUSE THEY HAD INFINITE ENERGY, hence the nerf.

it has been fixed. it was properly nipped in the bud.

there's exceptions to many "rules" in this game. example...minions are composed of bone and dead flesh, but they can still bleed (where's their hearts???) and are considered "fleshy". however, when they die they leave no corpse at all, so you can't raise another minion from them (with the exception of a flesh golem corpse). why? because it would be terribad for balance. taking a pet is like having your own personal flesh golem without wasting an elite skill slot. free elite skill = bad for balance.

here's what they could have done:
A) make it so minion spells can't exploit pet corpses.
B) make it so pets leave exploited corpses.

what's the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing difference? same result.

No, i didnt come to a false conclusion that Anet wants to nerf the build to hell. That has never been my conclusion.

My opinion is that Anet wants to nerf the build based simply on the merit that the PvPers want it nerfed, and I agree with them.

To what EXTENT Anet is willing to go to nerf the build, I do not know. It could be to its complete death, or to some semblance of minor viability. But I do know that nerfing corpses for pets is one way to do it.

And I still think it is the WRONG way to nerf the build, since it doesn't address the issue of how the pets got exploited to begin with.

And please dont tell me the reason I care. Feel free to disagree with me, but don't you dare tell me that I'm arguing based on false pretenses to up my post count or get attention. Because you would be very wrong.


It isn't a problem in PvE. Can everyone here read this? This isn't about B/P or ToPK.

My concern goes deeper than PvE or PvP. It goes to the core of the game. The engine and the mechanics of it.

Yes....I know this. I've shown how the pets were being used.

And yes pets were better energy supply than human players. We have established that.

Removing their corpses doesn't remove their ability to used as batteries since they can still be killed (triggering Soul Reaping) and ressed without adverse affects.

It slows it down, but it doesn't stop the exploit, which as I've said before, centers around the Necromancer.

The SR nerf removing energy from spirits is a way better nerf than this (although i disagree with that too, but thats another thread).

Or simply to move another gimmicky build that will then be nerfed later down the line.

This is the cycle of Guild Wars.

PvE effects are less relevant in balance.

Funny, this having flesh/not having flesh thing mattered enough to Anet to put in in-game messages to explain why poison and bleeding causing attacks didn't work as expected. But hey, if you want to give us all the kudos for inventing the core game mechanics, be my guest. In fact, maybe you can petition Anet to give us dev jobs, seeing as you think we and Anet think so similarly?

I didn't see anyone claim that PvE was the reason Anet implemented this change. And dying pets still give necros energy, so the question seems rather useless to me.

So apparently that aspect of the infinite battery remains intact. I find it rather odd that people claim that this change was because of pvp, but that it doesn't even "fix" the problem most people claim it's supposed to be fixing.

/signed

And if they're not going to revert it, they should make Charm Animal cost 5 energy, cast in 2 seconds, and double as a pet resurrection skill (without healing so Comfort still has a function).

It's a completely artificial and graceless nerf. I don't even USE pets and I'm disgusted by it.

I listed that based on one version of the build, specifically mentioned on this thread. Theres other versions and variations, but I will address the important point you mentioned.

I agree there can be exceptions to things in the game mechanics.

But...Spirits and Minions are considered summoned creatures subtypes, they have their own set of rules. Both of them behave the same way to certain skills (Like Reclaim Essence), and both types behave to conditions differently. They are AI controlled targetable NPCs that result from a skill activation (unlike a Pet, which is the result of merely carrying a skill and is considered an ally and is controllable).

The Flesh Golem is not an exception, since all the minions are different from each other. You have high damage melee (fast), ranged, vampiric, low damage melee (fast), high damage melee/corpse production (slow), melee/minion producing, and melee/condition.

Now on to the crux of the matter, being the Pet.

Well....A) would result in Wells. Since wells are not a minion spell. And putrid explosion, Necrotic teleportation....Soul feast...But you get the picture.



-=-=--------------------------============------------=

Necromancers have infinite energy thanks to controllable deaths of pets and spirits and minions....therefore Anet adjusts the pet/corpse system and spirit energy gain.

Whats interesting is the fact that pet DP isn't doing what its supposed to. The pet was still more valuable dead or dying than alive.

An Idea - Share Pet DP with the Ranger.

Why: The pet and the ranger already have existing functions where they are intrinsically linked. The ranger's skills get disabled when the pet dies, theres skills that rely on the pet for the ranger. Theres skills that transfer damage from one to the other. Skills that heal them both. The pet is your weapon, and an investment in your skill bar.

Sharing pet DP is just the next logical step. If the pet and the ranger are to be truly linked, there must be a greater penalty for letting the pet die.

If a party is abusing pets and letting them die to make corpses, they are not losing morale.
If suddenly the death of a pet is just as important as the death of a player, this changes the situation drastically.

The pet can no longer be used as a cheap battery, or corpse factory since its death is a VERY adverse affect on the ranger and in turn, the whole team build.

-=-=-=-=-=-=

But thats just an idea floating in my head.

Another idea is to change Comfort Animal, so it behaves as a res spell when the pet is dead. Ie: You must be within casting distance, long casting time, long cooldown.

Lot of good arguments both ways here and I guess none exploitable pet corpses are here to stay, at least till a future rebalance.

For the sake of my logic circuits I will assume the following.

All living things that die provide energy and corpses for Necros except pets.
The reason is there is a magical bond between the pet and its owner that in effect means the owner has rights of life and death over the pet in effect its not fully dead, thats why they can be brought back by comfort animal which doesnt bring people back.

Ok its a rough and ready reason with plenty of flaws atm but hey im trying to role play a reason why something works the way it does.

If you need a better reason the ask Melandru maybe she is pissed off at all these people abusing pets.

But at least I can now move on and stop worrying about it.

Actually gremlin. I can give you an explanation as to WHY the change happened, in terms of gameplay functionality.

I've been waiting for someone to say it, but no one has I guess.

Heres a flawed reason (since im i a hurry), gameplay mechanicswise.

The Ranger and the Pet are to be treated as one. Hence the overall intrinsic connection of pets (ive mentioned before)

BECAUSE the pet is really just an extension of the ranger, the ranger and the pet can only be considered as ONE body. So a dead pet is not a corpse.

Why didn't anyone say this against me?

/win. I am agreeing completely here.

Oh, but not all fleshy creatures can be poisoned, sickened or wounded to bleed. There are sme exceptions. Seek the wiki ==Notes==.

In terms of the game. Animals are much more like minions. They are not part of the party, but allied NPCs in their own party.

because it's wrong. It was nerfed because of corpse exploitation skills ruining gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot I didn't see anyone claim that PvE was the reason Anet implemented this change.

lolwut? Of course it wasn't. Where did you get the idea that such a thing was being implied?

Yes. that is the why, in terms of PvP balance.

We both know that.

But the (flawed) reason i gave doesn't contradict the PvP balance issue at all. It supports it and reinforces.

Sorry for the long spiel but...What the??? It was good for the game as a whole??? are you being paid for saying that. ummm, YES U ARE

It is truely sad when a GW Tester comes on and treats the GW players with contempt. have you not read any other posts in here? If you had then as a tester you should be giving a better explanation to your response other than a personal or company point of view, obviously its not seen as good for the game as a whole or no one would be here objecting to this nerf so strongly, can you give an explaination as how this has made the game play experience better for PVE, other than there are hundreds of corpes to exploit in a Zone, umm not all zones have exploitable corpses.

You make the point of why people are so ticked off about this nerf your self

I don`t want to PVP for the same reason a lot of others don`t want to, there are too many people there who are rude, arrogant and just down right nasty, i want to ENJOY the game not stand around arguing with "TOOLS" or waiting for 20 minutes to get in an AB battle

and again i say this and will use your part of your QUOTE
"It will serve (as well as other recent changes) to encourage players in PvP to move away from very gimmicky build"

so you are saying PvE play is being Nerfed because of PvP, Seperate the 2 Skill requirements for PvP and PvE and stop with nerfing stuff that has nothing to do with the PvE side of things, all you are doing is alianating the PvE players and make us feel like the unwanted side of GW.

After over two years of playing GW and hearing the disallussionment from your loyal players on this thread one would think you would actually listen, but no you seem to more like a trotting horse, Blinkers on, blood pounding in your ears making it impossible to hear anyone or anything and being guided buy a rein held by jockey who listens to the trainer who is instructed by the owner who sits in the Bahamas gettn drunk because he has 50 other trotters all over the place and only needs one winner. Guess what?, in your race to the finish line there are 20 others that have the same goal but there is normally only one winner, Which trainer got it right???? Me thinks your trainer hasn`t been looking at the track on which you are racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azza ummm, YES U ARE

No, I'm not. Where did you get that idea?

so out of the whole post, you only want to respond to this part, Mr Guru Bug Tester, who Guru admits to having a close professional association with and is an Offical GW listed support Site. errrrr

and also with you being an administrator i think it VERY unproffessional of you giving an opinion that is totaly one sided especially when you are trying to make a valid point and not backing it up with anything of revelance. It only proves more that you have to side with GW decisions and can`t give an honest opinion, "Blinker Guru Tester Man"

PS take out the Gestapo word from your posts please, you do realise that it can be very offensive to the Jewish Community don`t you?

This thread is long past the point it needed closure, really.

Lyra, it's because most of us don't think in terms of game lore for things to make sense the way they are. Things make sense because that is the way they are. It's a game, not a real world.

It is a clumsy fix. It's possible Anet will implement something more solid. Either way, any build that relied on the pet dying was pretty pathetic (rebirth exploits, pug barrageways...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azza so out of the whole post, you only want to respond to this part, Mr Guru Bug Tester, who Guru admits to having a close professional association with and is an Offical GW listed support Site. errrrr

Yes, I only respond to that part, because your entire response seemed to be based upon the assumption that I was being payed to speak highly of the choices of the development team, which in fact, I am not; essentially, this makes your post full of nonsense entirely void.

But let me set some facts straight for you, so you don't make the same foolish assumptions again:

Guild Wars Guru does not have a professional relationship with ArenaNet or PlayNC. Guild Wars Guru is a site run by fans of the Guild Wars game, for other fans of the Guild Wars game. Guild Wars Guru (and the staff here) is not being payed, in any way, shape, or form by ArenaNet or PlayNC for the service we provide.

On a personal level, I am a Guru Bug Tester. This means simply that I spend many of my own hours, taken from my own free time, to test bugs that the community reports, and organize them in such a way that ArenaNet and PlayNC may easily find bugs that are in need of fixing by simply browsing one section of these forums. I am not being compensated in any way, shape, or form for my services by Guild Wars Guru, ArenaNet, or PlayNC. While it would be nice to be payed for the hours and effort I put in, I do not expect any such payment, as it is a free, volunteer service that I provide because I genuinely care about the core functions of the game that ArenaNet and PlayNC have provided for us.

More often than not, I disagree with many of the changes that are made to the game. The most recent set of changes, however, I agree with, and therefore I have expressed my positive feedback on this, a Guild Wars fansite, about them, along with the reasonings behind the changes for those that are less than fully informed on the matter.

Furthermore, I am a moderator, not an administrator. Again, you are making assumptions before actually researching the matter. Just like any other member of the community, I am privileged to express my opinions on matters as I see fit, as long as I am complying with the Guild Wars Guru site rules.

Now, hopefully this all sets the record straight for you. If it does not, please feel free to send a PM to Inde, who is a site administrator, and can probably clear up any more confusion you may experience regarding this matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre This thread is long past the point it needed closure, really.

I agree, however for the moment I think it should be left open in the hopes that more constructive conversation might blossom from it. However, if it continues down the track it is currently on, it will probably be locked very shortly.

Then don't bring skills that need exploitable corpses, it's really that simple.

There are just as many rude, arrogant and nasty players in PvE, and definitely more tools. Also, if AB is the only "PvP" you've played, I'm sorry but you really have no clue as to why the nerf was necessary.

QFT

Barrage: increased damage to 5..20 damage.
???

Guild Wars was originally intended to be a PvP-orientated game.

Bad analogy is bad.

Also, I would like to say that ANet should fire Faer because he's doing a terrible job.

Faer. you still dont give a valid reason as to how this has been of benifit to the PvE community and it doesn`t matter if you are an administrator or a moderator, its still highly unethical of any person in a position of authority and responsibility to be giving a one sided personal view without giving a totaly founded view of your original post. Which you still haven`t

PS Take the Gestapo word out of your post. It is offensive, Screen printed and taking that one further if not removed asap

RhanoctJocosa are you entirely engrossed with that thing in your hand, your response is not actually a reponse at all is it. Just you looking at that thing in your hand and mashing the keyboard with the other,
nothing more to be said on your non response as it smacks of utter nonsense and trash

Im talking gameplay sense. Lore is irrelevant.

The ranger and the pet are connected. They are controlled by the same player. In essence the pet and the ranger is really one character. One could use this to justify the change from a gameplay perspective, if they do not accept the PvP reason.

I accept the PvP reason, but i still think its stupid.

Thank you for at least acknowledging this.


and you just like taking shots on PvE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azza Faer. you still dont give a valid reason as to how this has been of benifit to the PvE community

Yes, I did. You may not wish to acknowledge it as such, but I gave it nonetheless. If you do not agree with my reasoning, that's fine. It's not my problem.

On a totally unrelated note, not that it's any of your business: I am Jewish.

If I may, I'll reply to your question to Faer, since it's well on topic. The update has been of benefit to the PvE community as it is a small attempt to increase the amount of skill and competency required to 'win' PvE. While I don't think it's changed much, personally, players will have to re-think their builds, especially in ToPk which most people are complaining about, and adapt to the new changes. PvPers have to do this ALL THE TIME. I mean, hell, you should be thanking ANet for trying to increase the difficulty of PvE- 5 B/P (which now does +20~ damage, mind you), an MM, whose energy was previously filled with pets dying, who was free to make minions and blow them up (insane damage) and an orders, who also didn't have to manage their energy, adding +17? damage to each hit is completely insane. And ToPk was supposed to be a higher end PvE area!

As for what you said about me, I have no idea what you're talking about. Stop being a complete moron.
EDIT: I am actually quite "engrossed" with my bottle of Vanilla Coke, thanks.

Faer i don`t care if you are Jewish it is still offensive and just because it doesn`t offend you it doesn`t mean it wont offend others Jewish or otherwise

RhanoctJoscosa read what ... Meh you just write and think trash, your not worth the effort

Saying the word "Gestapo" isn't anymore offensive than saying the word "Hitler" or "Holocaust". Either way, clogging the thread with irrelevant outraged ultimatums doesn't strengthen your argument so do it by PM if it's that big a deal.

I personally thought it was stupid how Shiro betrayed the Emperor, but the only thing to say to that is;

GUILD
WARZZ
!!

Well as a PvE'er, I like to see people succeed by killing the enemies as their priority rather than relying on their own deaths as a battle plan. There is a reason none of the 'top PvE'ers' (I almost laughed typing that) use anything related to pet death.

The less people that rely on party deaths to succeed, the more people are going to start winning properly. Promoting better play = good.

you are right, Saying it isn`t, having it posted in a public forum is

Don't come to this public forum then.

Ya but they could have written a story where the Emperor stole Shiro's kitty. ;P Lore and gameplay should come together to make a good game, but in the end, gameplay is more important because people skip the lore a lot.

Did you read my idea about making Pet DP shared among the ranger and the pet?

That would certainly make a ranger value their pet more, and care more about properly healing it and not just letting it go off to die without rhyme or care.


Minion factory builds are gimmicky, but hella fun, i remember when Spearmen did this multiFlesh Golem build, before the flesh golem was nerfed to only 1 per necro.

It was basically:
one necro sacs
raise a fleshy from the corpse
sac so the fleshy has no master
verata on it
repeat till all necros have multiple flesh golems

On the topic of PvE, i do like things getting change up. I like a challenge and I like thinking up new builds. However i think you'll have a hard time convincing the general PvE community to stray from their old ways and try something new.

In that sense, wish monster builds scrambled and changed uniquely eveytime you zoned (see the thread about increasing pve difficulty). That would be LOTS of fun and weed out all the scrubs. lol.

put everything back the way it was, and ban pets in PvP ~

It's a possible idea that would be worth consideration. I can't tell you whether it would be good or not because I'm so out of PvP I can't give an informed opinion at the moment.

It could possibly double as a RaO nerf, since teams could repeatedly knock out pets.

That's a terrible solution.

I hope the mods are looking at all the crap being said and planning/discussing its deletion.