So, will there ever be an iota of chance for a PvE/PvP split?

another brilliant idea. kill all hydrids. yay. . .actually, hmm. . .lets think about this some more, killing off everyones hybrid != solution.

Unless something changed in the past 2 weeks(I haven't HA'd in about that long) then my post is correct. I didn't see anything in the update notes about it so I'm assuming the mechanic didn't change.

EDIT: Just went to Isle of the Nameless and got my pet killed, my skills did blackout. Go test it yourself if you don't believe me.

pve players.... i dunno where to start.... splitting the game skills to change in pvp areas... well, those whoever thought it would take another team of anet supernerfers to run a split game dont think too hard, its simple programming and i say simple because obviously nerfnet programmers know their stuff, its just unfortunate that they lack foresight. go through any old update list and you will see that there are nearly always more nerfs than buffs, its creating a stagnant environment where the skills that are always overlooked because they seem to be useless in any situation will be drawn upon to create builds that really have no purpose other than to simply function while flagged henchman do the job as you sit back and wait for drops. Light Of Deliverance is a prime example, if your whole party is degening, by the time you cast it they will not really gain life, they will only gain pretty much whatever they lost during the 2 sec cast time, add on top of that extra pressure from melee and AoE.... Monks should never be targeted for skill balance, monk skills are absolutely essential in pve and pvp, and no, n/rt healers are not as good so stop your internal monologue right now. I can see the next nerf list containing infuse to make it heal for about 40% less.... anyway, while typing this i think i suddenly just stopped giving a damn. i for one will not be purchasing gw2 as i believe it will be as poorly maintained as gw1, i think i'll stick with my ps3 and 360 tyvm....

/not signed

I buy 1 game get to play pve and pvp, split it, i have to buy 2 games. MAJOR MEH. NO!

No dammit. No.

ANet does not charge fees, they try to cater to as much players as possible, basically everyone.

I see little hope for GW2 if they follow the current practice:

99% of balancing done with PvP in mind
99% of new content for PvE

One skillset for two totally different kind of games, add in hero battles and other pvp game modes and things become even more difficult to balance.


GW2 Predictions:

Typical MMO PvE grinder, very easy, so that everyone can do it.
Super-casual PvP for people, very much following the shining example of WoW. ("World Battles")

PvP gets GvG as the holy grail, Heroes' Ascent will be merged into the World Battles.


Basically, a PvE world - where skill buffs and nerfs are dictated by the competitive side of the game again.



ANet still believes in a competitive game, they have already realized that people did not become PvP gamers after they "finished" PvE content, then they added more and more content to it. While they have realized the trend, it still does not seem to have reached their mind that people do not even want to become PvPers.

Faction AB's, Hero Battles - so many tries to make things more accessible for the "casual gamer" they roughly envisioned.


This is my nightmare, a super-easy PvE world where you can grind for titles of various factions forever, no challenge involved, even easier than GW1. + Skill balancing still based on the various PvP modes.

I think the WoW approach favoring the classical PvE world allows for a much easier addition of casual PvP to the game. If they really want a high-class, high-skill PvP game, they would indeed have to separate it totally. This 2 worlds, 1 skillset approach is and will GW only hurt, PvP and PvE players alike.

No split. No catering to whiny brats who can't even make a request politely.

its not like nerfs to skills make pve any harded so why spend time trying to sep pve and pvp when you can just focus on balancing pvp

If only that were true.


Guild Wars is both a PvE and PvP game, with an endgame focus solely on PvP. Originally when the game was made, it was expected that almost all players would shift to PvP eventually.

If you want a game without PvP, the answer is not GW. I am sorry.

PvP whine too much? Yeah please, GWEN anyone?

Got this right.

Probably the best path would be to move the two closer to each other. The more mobs are structured logically, the way PvP teams are, using skill synergy rather than stat boosts to create difficulty, the more balance in the two functions the same. This would create fewer problems in one when there is a change originating in the other and also encourage players to play in both areas.

The only reason you would split the game is that so PvE didn't have to be balanced. If players don't want things balanced, then they must be enjoying just rolling mobs without any effort using powerful skills. Balance isn't important in PvE, but it does keep things from moving too far away from the idea that skill is the key factor. PvE-only skills and other deviations from PvP are all causes of a failure of this idea.


Oh yeah, while I'm here...

Try to drag this topic into a troll-fest between player bases and you get banned. That is all.

Completely agree with this. However, I also don't see any reason why a split would be a bad idea. They are clearly two different games that are tragically using the same mechanics. Still, this has been discussed to no end in the past, and it always comes down to one fact most everyone agrees with: Anet won't do it.

We'll just have to see what GW2 does.

EDIT:Except that if it is done this way, each individual battle would take as long as a standard GvG, and then multiply that times every patrol of mobs in a zone. Suddenly PvE goes from being a casual game to an 8-hour-a-day career.

EDIT2: Just want to make it clear; I wouldn't mind an improvement in skillbars and AI among the mobs, I just don't think making every thing you face in PvE near-equivalent to PvP difficulty is a good idea. Some high-end areas featuring this would be nice, though. It still doesn't address most of the problems, especially because skillbars don't change, and people will still find ways to brute force it and take advantage of the AI, but all-in-all, it isn't a terrible idea.

Still won't happen in GW1, though. So, yeah...

These people who keep asking for big game breaking changes don't seem to realise the game is in its last legs, why would they plow more money into it when GW2 is being made??
Stop asking for stupid things!

Hypothetical; they balance the game around PvE: Protective Spirit gets a hit, the AI is programmed to move just out of the range of AoE, and enemies never ball up around a heavily enchanted warrior that holds aggro. If PvE is the focus of balance why wouldn't they remove degenerate gameplay to promote skillful playing?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...y.27s_Accounts

I hope not, the PvE only skills are about as far as I can see it going. I rather enjoy the ones we got but they will eventually get stale.

I've yet to find a PvE MMO that doesn't get the exact same type of skill balances, it is a requirement for any game intended to be played long term. Anyone who has played any other MMO for any period of time can tell you favorite builds that have been totally trashed. There are VERY few online games that these changes do not require one to delete and re-roll a character and I know of none that are as simple/easy to change as GW.

I find it *really* amusing all the stories of going to another MMO to escape the grinding and constant skill balances. Of course that is why we see many of the same people quitting never to come back about once a month (many of them going on two years of that). If you don't like the amount GW has in either of them then you aren't going to like *any* MMO - heck even freaking Diablo 1/2 had such balances. Good like finding that game.

You can insert whatever reason you happen to feel is the root cause of GW being (simultaneously) about the easiest to change from balances, one of the least drastic in terms of changes, and one with the loudest community of whiners about balances. My general feeling is that the "no monthly fee" generates a larger percentage of young people who haven't had real life bite them yet and think that if they whine enough and loud enough that the world will still do what their parents do - cave in and do whatever it is they want.

*edit* argh - clicked submit instead of preview.

I don't disagree in principle, but in practice I suspect the effect of a PvE/PvP split would be considerably less "skill churn" since PvE "balance" is much less important than PvP balance. This is exactly the result that the "split" crowd is hoping for, as best I can tell. They don't want anything to change. I can't begin to imagine how badly the game would stagnate if they ever got their wish.

Not necessarily. Groups of mobs having secondary skills, builds that work, and mixed professions wouldn't result in such drastic changes. As it is, many areas, such as FoW have balanced groups (Skeleton packs), but for the most part their skills are abyssal.

Making groups that actually used synergy would take the place of things like Enraged, area effects, and immense health and damage boosts already in place - as well as promoting better play rather than one-dimensionally blasting through everything that stands.

This wouldn't make the game longer or even harder, but it would make the two parts of the game fit better together - as well as potentially making it more interesting.

I am Suggesting that Skills are Nerfed to appease the PVP`ers to the detriment of PVE`ers although i cant find my original post, it has probably been deleted because i flamed Area on thier track record of Nerfing stuff and said i won`t buy GW2 because of it or because i flamed PVP`ers who can`t think for themselves and come up with counters so things get nerfed to the detriment of the whole community.

The Original Title of this discussion is "So, will there ever been [I think they mean "be"] an iota of a chance for a PvE/PvP split" and after reading thier idea I take this as meaning seperating the two playing requirements of Skills in PVP vs PVE and i dont think they mean seperating them into two different servers. to me that would be unworkable and unafordable to game that seems to be dying

IE. If Pet Corpses are not exploitable in PVP areas only this would appease the Whiny PVP`ers who dont know to attack or can`t attack the MM and not the Minions and it would keep the PVE`ers happy as well as this nerf would not affect the PVE world.

This way PVE`ers won`t complain about Nerfs that are put in place because of PVP`ers as is currently happening on an all too often occurance.

If this was possible it would have no detrimental affect on PVP`ers who want the nerfs in the first place and would have no affect on PVE`ers, it would be a win win solution. But no the solution is way to easy or its just that Area doesn`t like PVE`ers as it doesn`t bring them big business, Who knows they tell us nothing anyway and ask for no feed back before implementing the Nerfs, we are just mushrooms

You make a pretty good point, and the more I think about it, the more I realize there isn't much of reason to split the two, in all honesty. I am certainly not in favor of overpowered and abused skills in PvE (see Ursan), though I'm not necessarily against them, either (to each their own). Really, the PvE-only skills fix any real issues I had with the combined aspect, well, except for the fact that I don't like most of the PvE skills, but that's another story.

Well, that's true, and I did agree that this could be a good thing, if used sparingly and more fitting for the high-end areas. Like you say, this is a great replacement for ridiculous area effects and brute power.

Now, the only real problems I see with this is the amount of time and upkeep something like that would bring. In other words, when skills are nerfed/buffed, PvPers can simply change their build and design new metas. This can happen instantly, or it can take some time, but eventually new metas will be made while the old die off. These monsters would be stuck with aging meta builds that would be eventually less effective, sometimes entirely not effective at all.

For example, let's say before the Bloodsong change to Channeling, you have a spirit-spamming mob that is now much less effective when the change is made, without having any points in Channeling. While this is a more obvious infraction and can be noticed by coders, what about more subtle changes that could make an entire build crap? You know, like Mhenlo and LoD? They were kind enough to spot that for a henchmen many use all the time, but would they really pay much attention to mobs out there with what are supposed to be competition-level skillbars? I doubt it.

There is also the issue with the AI being not-so-good with certain skills and combination of skills. Even if you (coders) were able to copy-paste high profile skillbars, you would also have to likely add tweaks to the AI with instructions on how to use that build. With these builds needing change with every skill balance, that is a lot for even monthly-fee companies to deal with.

It is a great idea, I just don't see it being feasable, unfortunately. I would love for there to be a zone of monsters that randomly choose a team configuration used by say a top 100 guild at the time from a recent observable battle. Talk about true PvP training!

LOL Ohhh yeeaaahhhh and then some, and they are still going at it, i found GWEN easy personally, but onto subject of title of thread at hand, this thread isn`t about an aspect of the game being to hard its a whinge at Area Nerfing Skills to the detrement of PVE`ers and wanting the Skills of PVP vs PVE to be seperated so that they dont affect PVE if its meant to counter an Exploit in PVP

funny i wrote a post on this very same issue yesterday and it didn't even last 5 min.

so i went and posted it on the other site, same result.

heres a link for what its worth.

the short version is pve and pvp adversely affect each other in the current system, why a split is needed and a possible solution.

telling pvp players to just "adapt to the meta" clearly doesn't and will not work.

telling pve players to just "play bear and who cares its easy" is just idiotic.

meh, this post will last all of 5 min before its magically gone anyways.

No, it would help making people understand why PvP needs balance when they suddenly see their their monks SP-spiked, their "Ellies" dazed while their warriors cyclone axe themselves to death. Suddenly they'll realize and beg for pushover PvE again, because after all it's a certain (whining) player pool that adores the predictability of PvE while failing to see the advantage which PvPers will never have.

I don't think you quite get it.

It's not a PvE "demand for easy"..if everyone in PvE wanted LOL EASY they'd all be running around as bears.

Funnily enough, they're NOT. Some are, sure, but then some people in PvP are running whatever the unbeatable flavour of the month set up is: some people just want to WIN, and don't care how they do so.

This is true in both PvE and PvP.

Some people just want to play and enjoy themselves, while still using actual SKILL to get the job done. Clearly you do, right? That's why the broken PvP builds get nerfed, after all: so you can win with skill rather than a loophole system.

Amazingly, it's EXACTLY the same in PvE.

So please try to understand why having something randomly changed in PvE (that WASN'T broken in PvE) for NO PvE RELATED REASON is annoying.

In PvE most things don't need (I'm not saying "take"!) skill because you're supposed to win and, to repeat myself again, you know what to face, you can prepare. That's why you will always win with a bit of effort. However the amount of effort needed is shrinking and shrinking constantly with the introduction of several PvE skills.

You'll still be able to do everything as you did it before. PvP changes don't affect PvE much and mostly to the good. Whine exists until Anet delivers the instagib button, because soon after that nobody will play this game anymore.

What exactly doesn't work in PvE anymore now after the update?

typical.

whats hard to get? we bought the game to play GW not BEAR, Assuran... whatever.
skills that compress whole skillbars, that deal more damage than the best elite skill and in the worst case replace whole skillbars is NOT gw. Its the end result of the current system.

**WARNING - Unusually long post**

Oh, it may be annoying to you, as well as some of the more vocal people, but it's fine by me. Why? Well, honestly I would even love skills randomly chosen, perhaps by a die roll, or pulled out of some enormous hat, or whatever, then nerfed/buffed. There doesn't have to be a reason. I like change for the sake of change.

Look, it keeps things interesting. It makes people re-think their builds and strategies. It breathes more life into a game that is all about skills, not equipment. The only changes I don't like are game mechanics changes that end up worse than they were before. This, for me, includes things such as GUI 'upgrades,' the original 5-second SR nerf, and now the pet corpse thingy. Other than that, I say bring on all the funky skill changes.

To give an example at how this affects me, and how I ultimately handle it, I give you - the Verata's Sacrifice and MM limit nerfs. When this happened, I was still learning my first character, my necro. I loved the MM skills, and I only had Verata's Sac for about two weeks, and loving the immense power and ridiculous army it allowed me.

When it was initially nerfed, I was so mad. I wasn't posting on GURU, though, kept it mostly to myself. I just outright gave up on MMing entirely. The next day, I picked it right back up and tried out different skills, especially the now improved BotM. You know what: it was still fun. Different, requiring different skills, and required a bit more work to keep 10 minions, but still fun.

That is the whole point - fun. Who cares if your favorite build gets whacked from a couple of different directions. If you can't get back up, dust yourself off, and try something different, then you're not doing it for the fun anymore. This has nothing to do with how good of a player you are, "lernz to adapt" and all that - NO. Don't listen to that. No, what you need to learn is how to have fun in a video game.

Yeah, everytime I see a new skill balance, I get mad at my favorite skills getting hit, and I get overjoyed at skills I've never tried, or I always thought sucked getting buffed. I go through that whole range of emotion just reading through the changes. When I'm done reading, I ponder on what it could mean for my builds, and what I can now change or try out. Remember, it's PvE, the monsters aren't going to laugh at you and call you noob if you fail miserably with your new build (though the Charr in the Northlands might flash rank...).

Yes, but when you bring any suggestion that effects PvE and PvP namely skill changes, PvE vs PvP threads start to occur. Anyway, I was just responding to your post that said PvPer whines to much which I found odd because I remembered threads on mini pets and GWEN. Re-skin Armor, title farming, low drop rate, jeez it went on and on.

Read what I actually said, not what you think I'm trying to say:

"please try to understand why having something randomly changed in PvE (that WASN'T broken in PvE) for NO PvE RELATED REASON is annoying."

Right? Not 'it has made teh gaem too hards!!!oneone'.

It's just extremely annoying to have constant tweaks and alterations to skills (and actual base game mechanics) that are already working quite perfectly in PvE JUST BECAUSE OF PvP.

Which is the key issue here: as has been noted (even by yourself!), PvE is fine as it is: so why not restrict the changes...to PvP, where they're actually fixing a problem?

ALL these changes do in a PvE environment is..irritate the PvE crowd. They don't fix anything, they just..annoy people. For no reason. So surprisingly: people are annoyed.


And this: this is just stupid:

You've completely failed to use any empathy whatsoever there. None.

If PvP is "OH SO HARD: Those PvE people have SUCH an advantage"...then go play PvE. It's possible, you know? If you're playing PvP for the challenge, then don't complain about the challenge, and don't mock other people for "not playing PvP for the challenge".

There is no effective way of making PvE more 'PvP like': would you like it if GvG matches could only be won if you could beat 20 other teams consecutively, with death penalties carrying across and res sigs only resetting when the guild lord is killed? Because making PvE like PvP would be basically that. It just wouldn't work.

These meagre changes didn't kill any viable build (except maybe echoed shadowfail), did not take away firepower or whatever you needed to win in PvE, yet you still find it annoying and irritating because changes=generally bad? I can't count that as an argument.

No, I said PvE will always be fine after such changes. ALWAYS. That's a difference.

Yes, stupidity on their side. There are plenty ways of annoying yourself, if you're that sensitive, then I really hope it stays ingame. My Warrior survived the shield nerf, my Ele the AoE "nerf", my Necro all kinds of SR-related changes and my ranger doesn't feel bad about interrupt delays. Plenty things HAD to be fixed. Remember protective bond? Massive armies of minions that tanked whole Tyria?

Again. Why fear changes that only influence bad play?

Are you autistic?

Empathy for you was yesterday.

Facing overpowered builds, templates, skills, mechanics (teleporting) is no challenge, it is annoying because it doesn't reward player skill. Of course you'll never understand that, you didn't even understand the part about the fundamental advantage, yet your throwing it at me.

"Facing overpowered builds, templates, skills, mechanics (teleporting) is no challenge, it is annoying because it doesn't reward player skill."

i honestly dont know if you are talking about pve or pvp.

do you not understand that the nerfs and constant changes to skills affect MOBS in a minimal fashion but yet affect pve PLAYERS to the same degree as pvp?

mobs have higher levels their raw dmg output is intrinsically higher, they are more numerous and they 321SPIKE every single time.

theres no need to flame either dont you get it? none of us is responsible for the current situation linking skills to pvp and pve two VERY DIFFERENT styles of gaming and changing the way skills work for x,y,z reasons in one format will ALWAYS negatively affect the other.

Surena: You STILL don't get it.

Ok, let's try one more time.

Changing things for PvE to correct a problem in PvP is both irritating and (and here's the key) UNNECESSARY.

So you survived lots of changes: great! Good for you!

The question is, were they changes to stop exploits in PvE? A lot of them seem to have been. This, I might point out, is FINE. Splinterbarrage nerf? FINE.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever, none, none at all, with changes to PvE to fix PvE problems.

These very rarely, however, have prominent effects in PvP. How many monsters do you encounter in team arenas? None! So monster AI changes are going to have zero effect there.

Do you see? And if PvE-initiated changes DO have significant effects on PvP, the PvP people would most probably be annoyed! It works both ways.

The whole point of this thread is that skill/mechanics differences between PvP and PvE can be implemented, and in fact, ARE implemented to a certain degree. So why not just go the whole hog? Balance PvP to keep the players happy, and similarly nerf exploits in PvE when they're clearly broken (splinterbarrage). Just don't use the SAME changes for both groups.

Are we on the same page now?


It's not that changes are necessarily making anything IMPOSSIBLE in PvE, because that would be stupid, but they're frequently changing things that didn't need changing. It's unnecessary.

And in the case of non-fleshy pets, just...ugly and stupid.


You just can't compare PvP and PvE gameplay wise.

How many times in PvP do you have to use the same build against a massive range of level 28 opponents without ever getting a chance to change build or recover?

None!

Likewise, how many times in PvE do you have to face a completely unpredictable team of actual people of equal level?

None!

And yet the same skills are somehow supposed to address both aspects equally. It's a fundamentally flawed concept.

Yes, this is the reason for the everlasting forum conflict between pve and pvp.

PvP would be better off without PvE, and vice versa.

I admit that I don't PvP so wouldn't miss it if it was not part of the game. I also haven't been too bothered by the skill balances so I'm not moaning about anything.

My point was that as long as there are both aspects in the game you will never make everyone happy. I don't think there is a practical way to separate the 2 while keeping them based on the same skills and game concepts and it would be a waste of resources for Anet to try.

I would be really interested to see the stats as far as how many players do PvP vesus PvE. You see posts here and there stating that there are many more PvEers than PvPers but I suspect those are just guesses or wishful thinking. But if one population makes up the vast majority of the players it might make sense to focus on that aspect.

Just out of curiousity, what do you think Anet should be doing for PvP that isn't being done? There are 2 groups of people trying to kill each other, other than some landscape what else do you need? All the skill balances being done are already based almost exclusively on PvP issues not PvE.

Take a short visit to the PvP sections of the forum and have a look. It's not the quantity of things done to PvP, but the quality.

balance from izzys talk page

One of the issues that Anet and players has is (imo) that no one realy has a good definition of "balance".


in pvp is balance "everything is equal" or "nothing is equal"?

in pve balance is more straight forward. "everything is just right", granted "just right" is not the same for everyone so thats why games in general come with several modes of difficulty. in GW we have HM and the ability to make thing easier or harder by using particular builds. its flexible, customizable and the one thing that keeps me playing.

pvp balance as approached by Anet now, requires constant intervention and maintenance. its never EVER going to end.

PvE balance is simple only because its the fact that monster X is meant to die.

Anyone here played Everquest 2?
That's how it's done there. I know the community there wouldn't wanted it any other way.
Alot of people at first thought that having PvP and PvE variants for skills would be bad, but after they saw why the devs implemented it, they realized the potential it had created.

making a pve experience enjoyable is not simple though.

plenty of games have been ruined because it was either too hard or too easy, the best games have it dosed correctly and getting that aspect right is no easy feat.

In PvP, balance is the absence of imbalance.

There already is a split.... PvP players have split to find other games and PvE players are splitting to go to ebay and get some gold since farming is dead