So, will there ever be an iota of chance for a PvE/PvP split?

"So, will there ever be an iota of chance for a PvE/PvP split?"

GW2...

That's true. I'm glad you posted that.
Right now I think PvE is imbalanced and pretty dull.
Areas are either way too easier or they are stupidly hard unless you are using a specific group/profession/build setup. I highly doubt Anet will ever bother rebalancing PvE content after skill updates. The only concern is probably that it's simply doable, not whether it's challenging/balanced enough to be entertaining.

Without meaning various gimmick/holy trinity builds, GW was intended as build oriented.

Areas were designed to require adaptation and build experimentation. Areas with no corpses, areas with lots of casters, only melee, heavy degen, lots of AoE, each requiring different strategy.

But through time, as the skills and skill of players increased in power, the areas became bland. Any class could play with any template. Almost entire game can be completed with nuker and a MM.

Unfortunately, GW never attempted to address these issues, and instead opted for lowering the difficulty across the board, making the game trivially playable with holy trinity, thereby going against the most appealing concept.

But since many/most players are incapable of getting over the concept of low level cap vs. xp=more power, GW, and consequently GW2, are both favoring the majority, where time and power creep allow for zerging of PvE.

GW had a lot going for its concept. But they chose to abandon it. And it's the incompatibility between level-based vs. skills-based gameplay that ruined the PvE, and turned it into the "imbalanced" mess it is today.

When GW was released the idea behind PvE was that you would only progress through the story once, after completing a mission or quest you would never need to go back and redo it, save to pick up the bonus wich only had an experiance reward attached to it at that time.

Designed to only be conqured once or twice the maps were seen as far to easy for those that returned many many times with different profs and all skills at there disposal. Players were not migrating to PvP as expected but looking for more PvE content. This forced Anet to change thier approach and try to adapt new measures to extend the PvE play. The first move they made was to add Sorrows Furnace and to make several skill adjustments that made PvE more of a challenge.

Keep in mind that both Factions and Nightfall were being worked on at this time, Factions was being coded and Nightfall was being developed on paper. Changes were made to try and please the two evolving groups, PvE and PvP players not to mentions those that did both.

Realizing that the limitations of GW prevented them from fully exploring both PvE and PvP to the extent they had percieved the populas wanted they came up with GW2 and changed the GW:EN chapter into an expantion.


I believe that while GW2 will have both PvP and PvE content there will be a very sharp line dividing them so that both can expand indepently and to the fullest extent possible.

At the time of release of SF i had the impression that the update had been in the making for a long time (planed from the start) but that Anet simply had not implemented it due to:

1. lack of time

2. To demonstrate their technological knowhow in the updating and adding of large areas, maps, complex dungeons on the fly.

3. and yes new mechanics to extend the pve experience like greens.

It does remain an incredibly rich area with high replayability.

but yeah Crom, we can only hope. well. THEY can only hope, me i've got nothing to lose.

If there is such a balance that requires you to actually have to rethink your build or particular team build: Good. That's what makes Guild Wars fun and challenging, always coming up with new ideas and solutions to new problems. And besides, what's so fun about having to solve the same jigsaw puzzle over and over again?

No, they don't annoy the "PvE crowd," just you. I am a pure PvEr and you certainly don't represent me. And if they don't fix anything then why are there skill balances in the first place???

That aside, I'll reinstate what I hope they do with GW2: Keep it minimal. ANet have shown themselves to be wholly capable of providing a good product, but it's just gotten way too out of hand with what they've got now. Having to balance so many skills, combinations, professions, TONS of shit can be incredibly difficult. The scales can only hold so much.

So again, I hope they really lower the number of skills in the next game. So far, GW2 sounds like it's going to involve having much more activity than what is currently in GW. Will it be for the best? It's very hard to say: one of GW's biggest appeals is its emphasis on skills/build make up. It sounds like this'll be less so in GW2, seeming like it'll be much more action oriented.

Shame that minimalistic games don't provide more than a few hours of entertainment.

I find WoW abysmally boring. Every class has exactly the same 10 skills. There's a few dozen filler ones in there, but each class is played by making a macro that presses the buttons in order, 1 - 8. Even in pvp.

So far it sounds like all activity in GW2 will be exactly the same. Same classes, same skills, same quests, same everything - only the level will provide sense of progression.

Just like every EQ clone out there.

Action and MMORPG (something, that GW2 will definitely be) do not mix. *points to dozens of failed action MMORPGs out there, and lack of any successful action MMORPG

MMORPG crowd doesn't want action. GW2 will either be a huge grind fest, or it will fail. It's as easy as that.

And if they don't do that, and prove otherwise, they'll be writing gaming history - literally - and re-inventing the online gaming genre by defining MMORPG 2.0.

So what if the dude wants to play the game the way he want? In what way does that affect you?

I can safely say that pvp induced changes to pve irritates ME and im pretty sure i saw at least one other person mentioning that.

three's a crowd.

they fix stuff thats broken in pvp, because its broken in pvp it does NOT mean its the case in pve. they are different games

Hey Bryant....That monk is a spy! The mesmer is a spy! ^^;

anyway...it seems nobody did click the link i posted in the first page.

Lyra's solution to the pve/pvp skill problem:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10170019

WoW is not minimalist. WoW is simplistic, derivative, cliched, and rigid. Not the same thing.

An example of a minimalistic game that can provide hundreds of replays, never the same way twice, is Chess. It has a single board, two players, and a set of very basic rules governing the movement of the pieces. Yet, players are capable of devising complicated strategies that manipulate everything from position and control on the gameboard to the psyche of the opponent.

The problem with making a game like that which appeals to everyone, however, is that people who devote the most time to manipulating the environment and poking at the rules of the gamespace will ultimately always dominate everybody else. The prime example right now is Eve Online. There are a set of rules that govern physics, economics, and law in the game, and then the player is basically kicked out of a spaceport and left to his own machinations. Manipulating the rules is encouraged and it creates a world that, if you put effort into it, is constantly filled with wonderous new discoveries.

However, Eve Online is also dominated primarily by a small group of people who are able to devote the maximum amount of time to manipulating the world around them, and, the simple fact is, if you don't join them, you will never achieve anything significant.

That's a big thing with ANet: everything has to be 'fair'. You can't manipulate the rules to your own unfair advantage because it's all supposed to be a level playing field. Unfortunately, that kind of approach will, ultimately, always result in overly complicated rules as things are hastily patched up when people find ways of unfairly manipulating the environment around them (IWAY, botting/farming, etc.)

Yes, sometimes they do. PvP skill balances occasionally break perfectly legitimate PvE builds. That is annoying, and no matter how often you say it isn't, it still is. Useful, fair PvE builds shouldn't be broken because some knob in GvG figured out how to make an unstoppable killing machine that only works against other players. Unfortunately, the game was poorly designed in that respect, and it will never change since rewriting the code at this point would be a waste of time.

I don’t know about two different games maybe two different skill sets PVP tagged skills then PVE tagged skills (Same skills but different effects Nerfed PVP ones)

Where did those 'facts' come from? Must have pulled them out of your butt.

To answer the OP ..... not a chance. It's been discussed before (and posts were promptly closed). GW has always tried to be everything to everyone, and in that aspect it totally fails. I look at nerfs and groan (to myself) but I have survived them all (so far).

< Notice avatar, or this.

And WoW is much more complex than you seem to think it is.

I meant in terms of how skills are used, i.e. simply using the Sword Strike attack will hit the enemy, but using the skill while crouching will damage and cripple them. Not to mention how much more involving movement will be with crouching, swimming, jumping, etc.

They may've done that with Guild Wars. You never know.

Of course there is, I'm not denying that. I'm saying that the whole PvE base is not that crowd.

What, you mean the monk that's been healing me- OH SHI

I saw that, it's interesting.

Basically, you'd have two skill descriptions: A PvP one, and a PvE one. Fine by me.

They wouldnt need more servers at all.
Its not like there would be alot more people playing the game because they split it. The same amount would play the skills would just be split into 2 different functions.

If(player = PvP) then
skill functionality = "Do this for PvP"
else
skill functionality = "Do this for PvE"

woudlnt be that difficult.

Of course I do, he's in charge of skill balance, he SHOULD be testing and playing with the skills he changes a lot more than the average player.

That is the whole plan for GW2 but I can't se why they can't come out with 2 skill sets for PvP and PvE.They did this in a glitch with 2 of a few skills.There could be one set for PvP and PvE but with 2 different rulesets although it has been mentioned a few times before.They better hope they don't lose cutomers because of what is going on.

I don't beleive Izzy ever plays his account and is probably more of a PvPer than PvE.Izzy can get anything unlocked on his account including towns just like Gaile whose Ranger is still lvl07 and can be seen in Droks and THK.Devolopers and Puplishers hardly ever play their own games as they to busy making the games.Izzy plays another game as it was said on the board some where.

You tone down farming builds and guess what there won't be so much around farming and they will move on .

Is that official and can you source it? I heard that too but i can't seem to pinpoint where.

I believe it is on their site somewhere possibly somewhere on these boards.

Gaile got run by one of the old LBS guys if I remember correctly. (Maybe Rahja not sure)

My brain hurts trying to remember the hundreds of skills as they are. To then divide these skills in to two: PvE and PvP makes my brain throb more.

I'm strictly PvE but I'd much rather have PvP balance for the sake of the PvP portion of the community. Face it, it matters more.

I'm fed up of the 'them and us' division.

How bout play both, (or one) and not worry about anything else but having fun, cuz its a game..

No, there will never be an iota of a chance of this happening. It's far beyond too late, and thus, GW2. Sorry.

The closest I think you'll ever get to that is to play Fury if you're on the PvP side of the fence. I don't think ANet will do it here. Even in Guild Wars 2 it appears that it may be prevalent:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2

*although it's not set in stone at this early point

World PVP almost sounds like something similar to the Favor of the Gods but mabe on a different scale. GW2 is a long ways off (in both time and in the number of other games being released).

= no, but I'll type some random stuff in hopes that you'll be happy.

At this stage of the game they will never split pve and pvp. They should have made pvp only skills right form the start so when the nerf bat swings it doesn't hurt pve and vice versa.

PvE is not balanced imo, never was, never will be, especially now with the Ursan builds steaming round elite areas.
Besides the two are different in principal, PvP from what i can understand needs regular balancing to shut down exploits that cannot be countered by the guys in PvP, and i must confess these guys know more about builds and game mechanics than i probably ever will, as i am just a PvE player.
But i dont like to see retarded crap being rushed into the game that completley bollox up builds that people that have fun with, but until Anet can figure a way of keeping the mechanics different in the two areas then it wont change.
Jayce posted a good example of this somewhere else where he commented on SR, in saying it was not SR itself that needed changing but the way the mechanics of exploiting death in PvP ie spirits and minions etc needed to be adressed rather than the attribute line of a class.
Please note i am not trying to reignite the SR flamefests of recent times just using this as an example, other than that people should just try to adapt the builds they find butchered in PvE and accept the challenge however unwanted it may seem.
My two bob....

I still feel if the mechanics of the two are even closer together, then there will be less spillover effect of nerfs - anything that needed to be nerfed would need it in both areas, and fewer builds that are enjoyable to play and not broken would get caught in the effects.

It's all or nothing - having the two linked in some ways but with vastly different structure and mechanics is causing havoc, as every update thread shows.

That is a good point, one i didnt think of, hopefully then GW2 will see something considered with this problem , as it is too late in the day for the current game, besides i am fed up with all the hate between the two groups, when a balance badly needed in PvP causes uproar with PvE players, after two years it would nice if everyone could just get along (probably wont happen lol) but i can always hope.

You wanna know what's funny? When I bought GW I didn't know there was any PvP.

The problem with these skill/gameplay balances is that they eliminates more possibilities than they create. PvE players are "forced"(I don't believe playing GW is mandatory but some people think it is) to create new builds with subpar skills or resort to tactics like the blasphemy known as UrsanWay. UW isn't adaptation or innovation, its a direct contradiction to GW's intention for players to use "skill" in the game.

Lots of people enjoy both, pretty much all the people playing PvP started off playing PvE then moved over to PvP after they got bored or are still playing PvE.

Infact id say its only a small number of people that play GvG and HA that are exclusively PvP players, the majority are people who play both.

I havent seen any good arguments for the splitting, just angry children.

Meh, I don't use Ursanway at all and I'm a PvE only player, and I do HM on a regular basis. I go with a bit more defense than I'd go in with NM, and I'm perfectly fine. And since I team up with my friends, I have little to no problems and if we face them, we can counter them. Sure sometimes skills or mechanics nerf sucks, but we've always been able to adapt. AoE mechanics, enemy AI, loot scaling...

What I have a hard time with is that the nerfs are starting to affect PvE at some level, since contrary to your PvP foe... your PvE foes' skill bar does not change (often anyways). Their tactics does not change, but you are force to change your tactics... it gets weird O_o. Surely adds a bit of new stuff, but for stuff like pet corpses (yeah I know...) was totally uncalled for and unnecessary, since the mechanics can be used as well countered effectively..

We overcame them all, so eventually we're going to overcome this one.

yes we will overcome
and when they are able to sell pvp unlock packs that have no conection to the pve content of the game there is no longer any excuse for nerfing skills that effect the pve comunity.
they are quite able to stop pve skills from getting used in pvp areas so the mechanics excist to say skills x,y,z do this and that in pvp but revert to their original funtions when used in pve

But easier is so much more fun!