/thank, encouraging good behaviour; the opposite of /report

BlueNovember

BlueNovember

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

WTS GW2 items for Zkey

Mo/

Why not have /thank give the target some blessing (see below, specifics are unimportant, but plenty of scope) for good behaviour, helping out, or generally being friendly.

It's great that aNet is making effort to improve the community. Recently we've had more features for partying, separate of trade/all chat, and /reporting leachers/spammers.
However most of their efforts seem to focus on chastising the "bad" players rather than rewarding the "good" players. The carrot is missing from the proverbial "carrot and stick".
(Edit: Forgot about Player of the Week and the "1 of 1000 specially selected people in GW" recieve "you're a good person!" letters in the post. Both of these are excellent ideas.)
There's been many occaisions where I've wanted to show my appreciation to a graceful winner/looser in pvp through more than just "gg, well played".
Conversely, over the last double-HB weekend I've given lots of advice to people who asked for it, and been thanked. I'm sure there's similar situations that arrise in pve also. (People giving build advice, helping with pugs, explaining quests, telling people to do Galrath from ToA/Bergen and not LA... etc)

I generally think this would inspire people to be nicer.

Quick ideas for reward (I'm sure the reader can come up with better though) -
# Visible status effect (enchantment "I am a nice person!", halo, shimmer...)
# Paragon angel wings?
# Favour of the gods style announcement upon reaching some threshold
# Change colour of your chat text all/team chat
# Title
# Increased loot drop bonus (Edit: No, bad idea, ignore it)

It only has to be something simple. The least effect it has on the game the better really, as people are less inclined to abuse it.

Potential for abuse
Obviously, a group of friends could repeatedly use the feature on each other for mutual benifit. Some sort of limit or check may have to be in place, depending on how significant the reward was.

Thoughts?

---
I realise this is not a democracy, but I tallied the /signs and /not signs. (Did not include those who just pointed out suggestins for improvements or flaws).

/signed:
  • Shadowfrost ("I like the idea", no /sign)
  • legion_rat/the_rat
  • Darkhell153 (conditionally)
  • Vinraith
  • englitdaudelin
  • Oblivious Moose
  • Fril Estelin
  • Morgenstern
  • Diddy bow
  • silv3rr
  • Lexxor
  • Zephyr_9
  • Rich_Izy
  • Aera Lure
  • KZaske (ty :P)
  • ValaOfTheFens (conditionally)
  • Abedeus
  • System_Crush
  • arcanemacabre (<3)
  • gremlin
    ---page 4---
  • Hengis Stone
  • ZonerZ
  • Swift Thief
  • jimme
  • tyche7
  • Shayne Hawke
  • Croco Clouds
  • Songbringer
  • Dante the Warlord
  • Exterminate all
  • Apache.Scythe
    ---page 5---
  • hallomik (concept)

/not signed
  • MithranArkanere
  • Bankai
  • anonymous
  • thedeadlyassassin
  • Darkobra
  • Woop Shotty
  • L|S >+>+G+<+<
  • Stormz
  • Seraphic Divinity

Shadowfrost

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

Planet Earth (sometimes)

Nowhere To Run, Nowhere To [Hide]

R/

An interesting idea, to be sure.

The first five options you listed are viable, but the last isn't.

To stop too much farming, maybe limit you being able to thank just once per hour or something?

Personally I like the idea of the halo or other visible status effect.

crazy diamond

crazy diamond

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueNovember
Obviously, a group of friends could just /thank each other and farm the system. Some sort of limit or check would have to be in place, depending on how significant the reward was.
I move that the safety be dubbed the Circlejerk Denial.

legion_rat

legion_rat

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

668 the neighbor of the beast

TFK

A/

/signed this is a cool idea. I have seen and dealt with several nice people in game and would like to see them rewarded.

~the rat~

BlueNovember

BlueNovember

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

WTS GW2 items for Zkey

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy diamond
I move that the safety be dubbed the Circlejerk Denial.
lol! Mmmmm indeed. Innuendo will be the death of me. I'll edit the post to rephrase my wording.

Yeah, Shadowfrost, I agree that the added loot drop is probably ott. It was just an idea I threw in. Will make a note of that also.

Thanks for the /signs =)

Bankai

Bankai

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Bubblegum Dragons

Mo/E

1k For /thank

Will /thank Anyone For 1k

Plx /thank Me, I'm New 2 This Game

Darkhell153

Darkhell153

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2007

right behind you

Highlander Honor Guard [HHnr]

R/

/signed
only if you add in that you say "I have been thanked x number of times, I am cooler then you guys" on all chat xD

Vinraith

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

/signed

We have the stick, it makes sense to have a carrot as well.

MithranArkanere

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bankai
1k For /thank

Will /thank Anyone For 1k

Plx /thank Me, I'm New 2 This Game
That's the reson not to add this.

No one pays to prevent a /report.
But many would pay to get /thanks.

New guild rule: Everyone has to /thank daily all other members.

Tsk... tsk...

Antheus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

When I want to thank someone, I just report them twice.

Two wrongs might not make a right, but two /reports make a /thank.

crazy diamond

crazy diamond

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

Bankai

Bankai

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Bubblegum Dragons

Mo/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
That's the reson not to add this.

No one pays to prevent a /report.
But many would pay to get /thanks.

New guild rule: Everyone has to /thank daily all other members.

Tsk... tsk...
Yup, you'd get those kinds of things.

It's a horrible system. I've seen it used multiple times and it's always bad. It's even worse when the developers put in items that you can only use if you got /thanked enough.

iriyabran

iriyabran

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2007

[Lord]

E/

while we at it can we make /donate
i need new armor

JeniM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy diamond
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
What was that from? I seem to remember hearing it in a cartoon ages ago

Ontopic i think theres too much room for abuse

crazy diamond

crazy diamond

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

It's not from any cartoon, it's true. Try it.

anonymous

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

I don't want to see artificial kindness. People should be nice because they are a nice person, not to get some reward from /thank.

englitdaudelin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

East Coast

Soldier's Union [SU]

N/Me

/signed...but rewards should be minimal--I like temporary halo or wings.

No /thanks from guildmates unless: it's leader /thanking officer, or /officer thanking members.

I think title is bad idea--it's too likely to result in mindless thanking. But a temporary, one-use reward (halo that you can wear, all day, until you log out, or until midnight local time?) might just do the trick.

Maybe earnable only if you've done a quest with live people in last hour?

BlueNovember

BlueNovember

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

WTS GW2 items for Zkey

Mo/

Why is it more abuseable than /report?

If anything, people have less motivation to abuse it, especially if the effect is only something of limited value. I'd imagine that helpful people would likely value something along the lines of a shimmer/halo more than malicious people would.

I agree that the value would be weakened if everyone could get it easily. Perhaps make the effects temporary?

An easy way to solve almost all abuse problems would be to make it so one account cannot /thank another account more than once, perhaps within say, a 1 month limit.
--

"New guild rule: Everyone has to /thank daily all other members."
Would that even work?
I know if (forwhatever reason) I found myself in such a guild, I'd probably end up only thanking people I thought were more worthy of it than the rest. (Which is kind of the idea anyway).

Ty for criticisms though, always welcome.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon
I don't want to see artificial kindness. People should be nice because they are a nice person, not to get some reward from /thank.
o0, very profound. I fear that this is somewhat idealistic though. Besides, nice people in game are already nice. This is more to encourage others to be nicer.

Oblivious Moose

Oblivious Moose

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

Sinister Swarm [Sin]

P/

either visual effect, or make it an enchantment. like the opposite of the dishonour hex.

maybe cool looking enchantment saying your good person, double faction and exp rewards for you.. something that is useless to abuse. as exp is pointless in pve/pvp. and bonus faction isnt worth spending money on ppl to /thank.

/signed for basic concept, needs a little work to prevent it form being abused.

anonymous

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueNovember
o0, very profound. I fear that this is somewhat idealistic though. Besides, nice people in game are already nice. This is more to encourage others to be nicer.
Yes it might encourage others to be nice, but I don't want to see "Helping people for /thank!!!!!". Its just the attitude that "I won't do something nice unless I get something for it" that I don't want to promote. The intention of your idea is good, I just don't like what I think will happen if it gets implemented.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

I first thought that the idea was bad, because you may "attach" it to the bandwagon of the /report feature. But after 2nd thoughts, I realised that (well at least in the OP's view) this feature would only bring "cosmetic changes", no in-game advantage per se.

Considering how easy it would be to implement, that it could not be "hijacked" (only cosmetic) and that it could potentially bring some benefits to the game via incentive for good behavior (directly between players), I think I would /sign for it.

The only two downsides to this feature would be if people started expecting other to give them "cookies" after good actions, and the "collusion" of friends (may be limit the feature to people not in your guild and friends list? though this is a very limited counter-measure; as mentioned above and similar to /report, limit the number of use). But as long as it would not affect the game, a majority of people would not care (and greedy/nasty people would not!).

But it may create enough incentives and a better ambiance? Generosity ftw!

Morgenstern

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

New Zealand

W/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy diamond
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
For some reason I was laughing un-controlably for about 5 mins after reading this

On topic : I like the idea, anything to make GW a happier place!

/signed

Diddy bow

Diddy bow

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2006

Jawsome!!!!!!!!!!!

looking for one :p

A/D

It would be a nice idea, aside from the obvious ways to abuse it...

Say, you can only ever give a guy /thanks once, meaning that you cant just buff up using guidess over and over. A limit on how often you can do it could help, but that would be retriced if you got 2 people helping you, must you chose one?

Really the whole idea of helping people is, you either help them for money, and if you dont want money, dont expect anything but a good felling ^^.

thedeadlyassassin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

Tualatin OR

N/A

A/W

/not signed. as it's been said before, it'd be more abused then used.

Darkobra

Darkobra

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Scotland

Type like an idiot, I'll treat you like an idiot

E/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous
I don't want to see artificial kindness. People should be nice because they are a nice person, not to get some reward from /thank.
Exactly. That's why I hate people who smile without sincerity. Even in my job I don't do it. It's far too easy for people to hide who they are, especially when a reward is taken into consideration. In this case: /thank.

Surely a simple "thank you" is gratitude enough. If you truly wanted to reward these people, return the favour some other time to either that person or helping out someone like they helped you.

In-game rewards for doing the right thing? Why bother? There shouldn't need to be an incentive to do the right thing. It should just come natural. That's what's wrong with this world in the first place.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diddy bow
Really the whole idea of helping people is, you either help them for money, and if you dont want money, dont expect anything but a good felling ^^.
Exactly! And this /thank is exactly that: good feeling! Plus a nice transparent wings (or a little white circle floating above your head...) for 10-60 minutes, or a /i_am_cool emote, or a nice shiny icon "I Feel Good (TM)"

Contrarily to others here, I don't think it's "artificial". Or not more than "virtual reward" is. Calling it a "reward" would be too much, as it would not really bring an advantage (people would very easily not see that as an advantage; even those that would start bragging about it would actually tell us that they're retarded ).

I really like this idea, I don't think this has even been tried on a big scale

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkobra
In-game rewards for doing the right thing? Why bother? There shouldn't need to be an incentive to do the right thing. It should just come natural. That's what's wrong with this world in the first place.
Interesting. And why do you bother giving your opinion when you don't bother about the rewards?

(apart from that, agree that the world should be different, but one has to be realistic to change the world and have an open-mind so as to "break the vicious circle")

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

Whatever happened to people just saying, "Hey, thanks for the help, I really appreciate it."? We don't need an emote for this, we need less assholes in Guild Wars, that or a 7-hero cap.

Darkobra

Darkobra

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Scotland

Type like an idiot, I'll treat you like an idiot

E/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
Interesting. And why do you bother giving your opinion when you don't bother about the rewards?

(apart from that, agree that the world should be different, but one has to be realistic to change the world and have an open-mind so as to "break the vicious circle")
Because, ironically, the response came naturally to me. And to be more open-minded, we have to understand that there can be people who genuinely help with no reward because that's how they are as a person. People who help for money, on the other hand, are only after the money itself.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkobra
Because, ironically, the response came naturally to me.
That's not really the answer to "why". So let's try again with another question: why would you not want this feature to be implemented?

Quote:
And to be more open-minded, we have to understand that there can be people who genuinely help with no reward because that's how they are as a person.
That's not being open-minded, that's being realistic. This /thanks feature does not deny that there're generous people, it simply confirms it! By bein open-minded, I meant to say open to the possibility that this feature would be an incentive to those people who may not do it "naturally" (so to say) and possibly something to reinforce the self-esteem of generous people.

Think about this: each of these "genuinely" (may be this connotated word is really what you're saying, i.e. a /thanks feature would make generosity not genuine?) people will have encountered asses that do not thank at all, or even worse show them disrespect after their act of kindness. It's incredibly easy to "destroy", compared to "build", and such bad actions weight very heavily in people's mind. (that's one symptom of the non-symmetry of /report and /thanks, but I'm digressing). The /thanks can potentially make the constructive behavior of thanking people a reinforcing element of people sharing with the community.

Of course, exactly like for the /report feature, if in practice it wouldn't work, it should be removed immediatly. But as I said before, I don't think this could happen, because it wouldn't bring an "advantage". At worse, it could make more obvious who's bragging or asking for attention, but these people would be ignored. The "genuinely" generous people would simply ignore the benefit, or possibly have a nice good feeling about themselves when they see this little thing ove rtheir head or what happens when they type /i_feel_good (they should be able to disable this bonus if it is visible with a /no_thanks).

Quote:
People who help for money, on the other hand, are only after the money itself.
What's the relationship with the topic here?

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Whatever happened to people just saying, "Hey, thanks for the help, I really appreciate it."?
Well, how such a feature prevent them from doing that?

Quote:
We don't need an emote for this, we need less assholes in Guild Wars, that or a 7-hero cap.
Funnily, that reminds me of the first few comments made when the news of the /report feature came out. "that's not the solution", "we need less leechers", "don't nerf the metagame". That's what I called "closemindedness" (no offense, sorry if the wording is a bit strong, please note that I'm not a native English speaker), meaning that people do not believe that the game features can actually help alleviate people's problems and create incentives for good behaviors (or that these feature make these behavior not so good, or "genuine"?).

In other words, this sentence you juste wrote is purely and simply equivalent to "let's do nothing and wait for people to stop being asses". Unfortunately, as the real world shows, that's not going to happen.

Bankai

Bankai

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Bubblegum Dragons

Mo/E

Fril, have you ever played a game where they have a system like a /thank system?

I think not. If you did, you must surely remember the thousands of people trying to buy and sell /thanks.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bankai
Fril, have you ever played a game where they have a system like a /thank system?
As I was saying before, I don't know of any system that implements such a system. Do you know of one? (I suspect the "security" midset is at fault here, as people tend to ignore incentives for positive behaviors instead of preventing negative behaviors)

Quote:
I think not. If you did, you must surely remember the thousands of people trying to buy and sell /thanks.
Please, share your experience with us! I feel people are reacting similarly to the /report feature, i.e. very negatively, but that didn't prevent Anet from making the bold move. And I think it was a rather good success (though not complete).

Let's try to be constructive here, meaning both arguments in favor or against should be argumented and if possible weighted against other aspects (at the level of the community, not at the level of "myself").

Darkobra

Darkobra

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Scotland

Type like an idiot, I'll treat you like an idiot

E/Me

Like I said, the people who genuinely help and receive a "thank you" is enough to boost their self esteem. And I've already stated clearly why I don't want it implemented.

"HELPING FOR PRO/THXK?!"

Then we come to Guru.

"OMG I LIEK SPENT AEGES HELPING SUM SCRUB AND HE LIEK NO /THX ME!"

Yeah. There are people who genuinely help and then there are people who just want instant gratitude and bragging rights. Let me put it to you this way. Who's better? A man who gives to charity and keeps his business to himself or a man who gives to charity and brags about how amazing he is?


Now for the real reason it definitely won't be implemented. /reports are heavily moderated to prevent abuse. Why would they waste time and money on moderation of the /thanks feature? They won't. It will easily be abused. It's easy for us to thank someone, but we need them to ban the rulebreakers for us.

arcanemacabre

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

/agree with Darkorba. It's a noble idea, but the implementation would be left with a hollow feeling, and do more bad than good. Something like this would not convert anyone from apathetic or malevolent into perfect helpful little citizens, and those who are already helpful will not be encouraged more by a system like this, since they do so without concern for reward.

/notsigned

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkobra
Who's better? A man who gives to charity and keeps his business to himself or a man who gives to charity and brags about how amazing he is?
Binary decision FTW? You know, the world is FAR from being black and white, on one side the "genuinely kind people" and on the other side "those waiting to brag for /thanks", don't you the thousands of other possibilities in the middle?

Quote:
Now for the real reason it definitely won't be implemented. /reports are heavily moderated to prevent abuse. Why would they waste time and money on moderation of the /thanks feature? They won't. It will easily be abused. It's easy for us to thank someone, but we need them to ban the rulebreakers for us.
In security you always differentiate vulnerability (the door by which a malware enters) and exploit (the actual harm that the malware does once it passed the "door"/vulnerability). The /report feature has both, while the /thanks has only vulnerabilities and no exploit. What you introduce as "abuse" is not, because it won't change the actual situation about bragging, just make it explicit. As I said before, it's about making good people feel good, not arrogant get more bragging rights as they already have the maximum (you n00b? I hate this intellectual shortcut which virtually puts people on their own throne of superiority ... though it's actually helpful to know these people). One can even imagine giving Dishonor points for asking for /thanks (it's a bit extreme but can always be brought later if too many people are bragging)

As you said, it is easy for "us" to thank someone, and it would be easy to give to the kind-hearted a little "plus" for their generosity. As I said before, this feature has never (to my knowledge) been implemented on a big scale, the Ebay system uses forums and nice icons to provide "self-esteem" marks to people, but this is very basic (it's actually funny to see people give good ratings and bad comments for fear of retaliation, but I'm digressing again). Trying to promote "positive values" would be the boldest move ever done, wouldn't it?

(I'm actually trying to defend this feature, but I'm very realistic: there's an extremely low probability that it'll ever get implemented due to the fact that negative opinions about this feature will weight more than positive ones, it'd be the safest route for Anet in particular after having introduced the /report feature)

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
convert anyone from apathetic or malevolent into perfect helpful little citizens
<do not take this too seriously>
Well, we'll have to vote for Labour or Conservative, or Republican or Democrats, won't we? There's no wya third way people, no shades of grey, no nuance in life, get used to it!
</do not take this too seriously>

Quote:
and those who are already helpful will not be encouraged more by a system like this, since they do so without concern for reward.
Of course, similarly to those who are not "mean" people will not be hurt by the /report feature, because it's not aimed at them. If they don't care about it, they will simply ignore it, won't they? (I even mentioned the suggestion to have the /no_thanks to disable this feature)

silv3rr

silv3rr

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkobra
"OMG I LIEK SPENT AEGES HELPING SUM SCRUB AND HE LIEK NO /THX ME!"
It is that reason itself that people won't abuse it...

Based on what you said, if greedy people were to go around helping just for the /thanks, the moment they don't get /thank'd, they'll feel that helping people just for the /thanks was a waste of time, therefore abuse = gone.

Also, why would greedy people bother helping people when the rewards aren't all that beneficial? It's JUST a temporary cosmetic, it has no value.

People (the same people you pointed out in your black & white explanation of the world) that are genuinely friendly and helpful won't give it a moments thought if the person they were helping didn't /thank them. People like that already exist in a world without a /thank feature.

Quote:
Who's better? A man who gives to charity and keeps his business to himself or a man who gives to charity and brags about how amazing he is?
We already have elitists that gloat about other things.

Quote:
Now for the real reason it definitely won't be implemented. /reports are heavily moderated to prevent abuse. Why would they waste time and money on moderation of the /thanks feature? They won't. It will easily be abused. It's easy for us to thank someone, but we need them to ban the rulebreakers for us.
Why would that matter? /thanks do not need any moderation, I don't see why it does since the "rewards" are only temporary cosmetics.

I'm not being hostile towards you in any way, but I just don't see why this /thanks would become an "abuse" issue like /report. This has less affect on the player-base than /report does.

Spam is also not an issue, people spam other emotes already, and that's why we have an "emote" check-box.

As for client side performance lag, I imagine this would be considered a "post-process" effect, so that can be turned off... chances are, if the people that can't handle a town-full of /thank'd people, then they probably have their graphics settings on pretty low.

/signed

EDIT: Forgot to add this, doesn't ANet already have like rewards for exceptionally kind citizens? Player of the week kind of thing? That lucky person would be given prizes of sorts.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by silv3rr
EDIT: Forgot to add this, doesn't ANet already have like rewards for exceptionally kind citizens? Player of the week kind of thing? That lucky person would be given prizes of sorts.
Good point. There was a section "Random Acts of kindness" in the Scribe (but it seems it's not around any more?)

Lexxor

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

Majestic Dragons [MaD]

Mo/N

/signed

I think it should only give you a temporary title, and that people can only /thank ( or /ty ) once per hour. And not on anyone in your own guild to partially limit the chance of exploit.